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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 28 to 52 of 55. Go back in thread:
Posted by DAisym on September 1, 2007, at 13:20:00
In reply to Make that 4! (nm), posted by antigua3 on September 1, 2007, at 11:34:07
I think my therapist would cringe at being described "near perfect" -- he says it is a long way down when you are put up on a pedestal. But I think we can stop and be thankful for finding a therapist who is a near perfect fit for us - individually. I suspect that there are people here who would be driven crazy by my therapist's approach. So we all need something different. I know we know this. But aren't we lucky that there are so many different styles and orientations?
And I'd like to also point out to Joni, and Sunny and Antigua and others -- a great deal of why therapy is working has to do with you all, and your courage to talk about the relationship and all the other hard things. So your therapist is probably really glad to have you as a client - you make them look good!
Posted by RealMe on September 1, 2007, at 22:58:17
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » Dinah, posted by DAisym on September 1, 2007, at 13:13:34
I think it depends on the type of therapy one does. I was trained in psychoanalytically informed psychotherapy in the early to mid 90's, and so not that long ago, but long enough. All the workshop information I get for CEU's has to do with technique stuff that is suited to brief therapy (6 sessions). This is all a lot of people want. Do I think it works? Well for some people I suppose it does if they have a very specific problem to address. It wouldn't work for me, and this is why I knew I needed to go see an analyst who does long-term indepth therapy/analsis. There are actually quite a few people still being trained this way, and some people who at middle age are going back for this type of training, mostly in the bigger cities. If there is a city nearby with a psychoanalytic training institute, then this is a good resourse for a therapist who knows his or her stuff.
I think it is also interesting how some people prefer a female vs. a male therapist for csa work. I chose a male because it was males, and I have some warped ideas about males; ask my husband. LOL. So, my thing is to work on this with a male because it is harder to do with a male than a female.
Anyway, I am glad to be better matched with my current therapist even though we have only met for four months now. I am feeling he is the one, though. He is honest and tells me how it will be, and how he will help, and he is so gentle and kind and accepting. It is so scary at times. Sat on the couch, though, on Friday. Closer but not too close yet. I was imagining how it would be to sit closer, and I got too anxious.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by DAisym on September 2, 2007, at 1:02:43
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » DAisym, posted by RealMe on September 1, 2007, at 22:58:17
Are you using analytic technique with your clients, or a mixed approach? I think it is really interesting how therapists decide what their approach is going to be.
As far as working with a man or woman, for me the choice wasn't conscious. I had no intention of working on the csa, or of even telling - ever. I interviewed two women and then found the therapist I have now. But I have a lot of issues trusting women, I have very little faith that they can be protective or really have the capacity to hear me when I'm falling apart - so I don't with women, at least not very often. (yes, mother stuff) I've wondered if I'd chosen a woman if I'd have gone into all this stuff.
I think it is great that you are only sitting as close as you feel comfortable. You are taking care of yourself. How close is the couch? I sit on the couch (could never lay down) and my therapist sits across from me. But the distance is good and I use the couch pillows to barricade myself. Last week I consciously tried to not pull the pillows in my lap and in front of me. I was successful 3 out of 4 days!
Posted by RealMe on September 2, 2007, at 3:01:37
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » RealMe, posted by DAisym on September 2, 2007, at 1:02:43
Hi
I am not doing therapy with people right now, just evaluations. I don't want to try to do therapy while I am so up and down and feel so wretched sometimes.
I already went through a lot of therapy and worked on most of my mother issues years ago; I knew that by not working on csa stuff, someday it would come back and bite me. It has. After therapy for around 11 years, I went back to school for my doctorate and then did a postdoctoral fellowship where my old therapist was.
So, my old therapist died the end of 2004, and this is when all the unresolved stuff came back. I had not seen him in over 10 years and was doing fairly well. When I heard he had died, I was devastated. I saw him altoghether inpatient and then outpatient for a total of 11 years, I think it was. He was pschoanalytically oriented. So after I decided to see someone, that person is the one who kept pushing the ECT. He said he was "psychodynamic." Hah; that was a joke right there. A generic what???
So, now the analyst I see says he thinks I should lie on the couch too. No way; at least not know. He has a two chairs that are at right angles with the couch at either end, and I would sit in the chair way across from him. I sat on the couch last time at the end furthest from him but still closer than the chair and pictured what it would be like if I sad at the other end. We would be playing footsy with each other, we would be that close; no way! There is where my head would be if I would lie down. UGH. He would be so close to my head he could practically whisper in my ear. That just spokes me out. One day maybe I will lie down, but not now. I put a pillow like a barricade on the side of me that is closest to him. This all sounds so silly, but it isn't is it??
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by ClearSkies on September 2, 2007, at 10:07:20
In reply to Perfectly Matched, posted by DAisym on September 1, 2007, at 13:20:00
>
> And I'd like to also point out to Joni, and Sunny and Antigua and others -- a great deal of why therapy is working has to do with you all, and your courage to talk about the relationship and all the other hard things. So your therapist is probably really glad to have you as a client - you make them look good!
>
>My therapist said that amongst therapists it's well known that clients are chosen so as to make the T's look successful - so if we hit it off, or are able to bring up the difficult subjects and get through to the tough bits, we help to make them look good.
A mutual admiration society.cs
Posted by annierose on September 2, 2007, at 11:54:12
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » DAisym, posted by RealMe on September 2, 2007, at 3:01:37
Real Me and Daisy -
The couch thing is scary. I announced at the end of one session (as I was exiting the door) I would lay down next time. I didn't want to have another discussion regarding the couch. She had encouraged me previously and there was no way in h*ll I was going to lay down.
I chose that appointment date because it was an early evening appointment. SO ... I've never admitted this to anyone, I had a glass of wine before I went. Didn't help much.
The entire time I layed there, I heard a train crashing through my head. It was loud. The swirling, rushing sound was unbelievable ... especially because the room was silent. She asked me if I had a headache. Silly t. I explained the static in my brain and how vulnerable I felt. She stayed with me, calming me, trying just to be with me in the moment, not asking anything of me but to tell her all the feelings that were coming up for me right then and there.
Although it was difficult, I told her I promised myself that I would lie down for 3 weeks, 9 sessions. After that, I would decide.
There are times it is utterly relaxing lying on her couch. Other times, I want to jump up and sit. The few times I have sat up since then, (3 years?) I find equally difficult.
I hope when you feel comfortable enough, you would give it a go a few times. You really can't decide after the first session since it is like any new experience, the first time is the hardest.
I do find that I self-edit less. My eyes are closed and thoughts float up without all the censoring. It's harder and easier because I can't see her reaction, I must trust it. Sometimes I'll ask, "Are you rolling your eyes?" And she always reassures me she's not. I am very attuned to her voice, the inflections, the tone, the choices of words she uses.
It's different.
Posted by RealMe on September 2, 2007, at 22:42:47
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long + Dasiy » RealMe, posted by annierose on September 2, 2007, at 11:54:12
Thanks so much for your post. I hope I can lie on the couch sooner rather than later. Right now it was a big step for me to even sit closer to him, and he acknowledged this. The very idea of being that close to him without being able to see him really scares me. When I was in my teens and after all sorts of csa which continued, my older brother became schizophrenic and violent, and I would go to bed at night not sure I wouldn't be killed in my sleep. He almost killed me on more than one occasion and my mother too. No father in the home. So, to have my head so close to him is very threatening. I know in my head he won't kill me, but I have to get used to sitting closer first.
I only go twice per week due to a number of factors. He would like me to come three times per week, but his schedule is full, and I just don't know if I want that much intensity right now anyway. So we settled on twice per week for a year. Then see what we might do. Thanks, though. I really appreciate your post.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by Dinah on September 5, 2007, at 9:47:15
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » Dinah, posted by DAisym on September 1, 2007, at 13:13:34
I'm thinking there are still large gaps in therapy training. Would you believe that I once asked a message board of *therapists* about sexualized transference, and not one of them knew the ethics rules on it? I had to refer them to the APA video. :(
It seems like some things they expect the therapists to pick up along the way. But when you do that, there's no guarantee they'll pick up the right message.
My therapist finds Babble fascinating. I'm sure he wouldn't look here on his own even if I hadn't forbidden it, but he loves hearing about it. I think we have a lot to share.
Posted by Dinah on September 5, 2007, at 9:48:07
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » DAisym, posted by Dinah on September 5, 2007, at 9:47:15
Perhaps we ought to form a group to give seminars. ;)
Posted by raisinb on September 5, 2007, at 12:14:46
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long + Dasiy » RealMe, posted by annierose on September 2, 2007, at 11:54:12
I just wanted to say to annierose--don't worry about the wine. I went through a period (after I'd admitted to my T that I was attracted to her), of having at least one, sometimes two, drinks before therapy (and they were usually a lot stronger than wine).
She never said anything about me being half-crocked! I don't know if she noticed or not.
Posted by annierose on September 5, 2007, at 17:06:39
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long + Dasiy, posted by raisinb on September 5, 2007, at 12:14:46
I did admit to my therapist at the time I had a drink --- just not to anyone else. Sadly, it didn't take the edge off at all.
Posted by DAisym on September 5, 2007, at 22:22:30
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » DAisym, posted by Dinah on September 5, 2007, at 9:47:15
My therapist has started to use Babble against me! When I wail about things, particularly how long I'm taking to work through all of this stuff, he'll say, "isn't there anyone on the Board that is in long term therapy? Do you think they are taking too long?" I tell him that's not fair! And he grins.
I think the seminar idea is a great one. In my fellowship training I'm always the one saying, "um...excuse me...but don't you think that mom might need x, or y or z" -- based on the theraputic relationship. I get a lot of "oh yeah, I never thought about it like that." *sigh* I did finally "out" myself at the end of last year's class to one of my teachers about being in long term, intensive therapy. He said he was jealous. :0
Posted by DAisym on September 5, 2007, at 22:39:28
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - » raisinb, posted by annierose on September 5, 2007, at 17:06:39
I hate this. I have this amazing sense of connection and I don't feel so alone with the abuse and then *poof* -- it gives way to thoughts of "you shouldn't feel so good about this" or "you are weak to need your therapist like this" -- and then wham - I'm angry at him for teasing me with the idea that I'm not alone. Because really I am.
He says I'm not. He was floored at my interpretations of some of the things he said, -- like when he asked me on Thursday if I was going to be safe over the weekend. I threw it back at him on Monday, "I guess if I don't take my own life than I'm fine. I'm safe. Doesn't matter that I'm not really OK, as long as I'm alive to show up at my next session." Ouch, ouch, ouch. I was so mean. And then of course I fell apart sobbing. And shut down and couldn't talk. (One cute moment - I told him "I'm going away - shutting down." And he kind of sounded like a little kid - "WHY?! Don't do that. Come back!" I tried but didn't do very well. That was Tuesday. Today was better.)
After many other things he finally said, "I think when we get close, you get scared. It all gets mixed up for you, feeling close feels good, which then feels dangerous. You can't sort it all out, so you just run from it. I think I'd be mad at me too for the confusion. But I won't hurt you, I promised I wouldn't intentionally hurt you."
After two days of talking about this it is better. Not completely OK, but better. He said THIS is my therapy. Learning to be close, to trust myself and to feel safe. I thought I'd get the spiral speech again but instead I got the "chips" speech. A while ago I was so worried about when he would get sick of me -- I said it felt like using up all my chips to call him or whatever. He said I could have 999,999 chips. Today he asked me how many I thought I had left - I thought I'd used at least 150,000. He said no worries, he'd let me know when I got down to a mere 10,000. "What happens then?" I asked. "We start over" he says.
Start over?! No way. Thank goodness the session was over.
But seriously - I really do want advice on how to hang on to the good, connected feeling. How do you just allow it?
Posted by RealMe on September 5, 2007, at 22:50:22
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » DAisym, posted by Dinah on September 5, 2007, at 9:47:15
Are you speaking of the American Psychiatric Association or the American Psychological Association??
The American Psychological Association has strict guidelines (but not as strict as in the past) regarding this sort of thing.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by muffled on September 5, 2007, at 23:43:11
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - it was fleeting - trigger, posted by DAisym on September 5, 2007, at 22:39:28
I have been kinda avoiding this thread...
Its really is kinda cool though.
Anyhow, from previos post,>After many other things he finally said, "I think when we get close, you get scared. It all gets mixed up for you, feeling close feels good, which then feels dangerous. You can't sort it all out, so you just run from it. I think I'd be mad at me too for the confusion. But I won't hurt you, I promised I wouldn't intentionally hurt you."
*My T has said something almost identical to me. Its nice to see that your T is clear on *intentionally*.
>But seriously - I really do want advice on how to hang on to the good, connected feeling. How do you just allow it?
*Sigh...that I don't know....thats why I was avoiding this thread...I'm not 'there' yet. I am too afraid.
I admire you achieving what you have. Its amazing. A testimony to both of you guys perseverence.
I was thinking, you write so beautifully of your T experience...mebbe thats fodder for a book? I dunno.
So the line that caught me was "how do you just allow it", cuz I can't even allow it. I am not allowed.
Maybe if someone knows how to just allow it, it will give me a clue how to do it in the first place.
It does make me very angry with myself for being so ridiculous.
I got no excuses.
Thats why I say I am an idiot(and people say no your not...)
Anyhow, nuff bout me, I just wanted to thank you for a beautiful, hopeful thread.
Thx, take care,
Muffled
(hey tell your T muffled says HI!!!!)
:-)
Posted by antigua3 on September 6, 2007, at 7:28:45
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - it was fleeting - trigger, posted by DAisym on September 5, 2007, at 22:39:28
Yes, it can be fleeting, and you can't clutch it tight sometimes because it's made of air in a way. All I can say is to enjoy it when it happens, try not to feel threatened when it leaves and believe that it will come back. It's part of the ebb and flow. Sometimes you have to let it go, and it will come back stronger because of your relationship with your T.
Take care,
antigua
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2007, at 7:36:06
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » Dinah, posted by RealMe on September 5, 2007, at 22:50:22
http://www.apa.org/videos/4310767.html
The question was what a therapist should do if a client expressed sexual feelings for them. And since that's not particularly unusual in therapy settings, I thought it was odd that they didn't seem comfortable about knowing how to handle it.
The board I spoke of was not for any particular sort of therapist or degree. Just therapists in general.
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2007, at 7:37:49
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » Dinah, posted by DAisym on September 5, 2007, at 22:22:30
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2007, at 7:52:55
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - it was fleeting - trigger, posted by DAisym on September 5, 2007, at 22:39:28
> I hate this. I have this amazing sense of connection and I don't feel so alone with the abuse and then *poof* -- it gives way to thoughts of "you shouldn't feel so good about this" or "you are weak to need your therapist like this" -- and then wham - I'm angry at him for teasing me with the idea that I'm not alone. Because really I am.
You know, it's kind of funny (not hah hah funny) that in the end I managed to grasp both of these things at the same time, when before I struggled with holding on to the connection far more than I do now.
It wasn't until I really was forced to acknowledge that in the end I was alone that I was able to accept the caring he did offer, believe in that caring (for the most part), and be able to hang on to it.
So that this week I'm doing badly, and he asked if I'd like to come in an extra day, and I responded that I didn't have any money left in my checking account, and he told me to call him if I needed him. At one point that would have stung a bit. The reminder of the paid nature of our relationship. But this time that only flitted briefly through my mind before I accepted his offer to call. Although I haven't.
So there's this whole completely incompatible sense of knowing that yes, I'm alone in the most fundamental matter. I have no one to rely on but myself. But yes, I'm never alone. There are people who care about me, and who want the best for me, and who send a bit of that with me as I go along. Not just my therapist, but lots of people. I can rely on their caring, I can rely on their help and company through my journey. In some ways. And yet I am alone in other ways.
It's weird. But somehow it feels better than it did before, before I held those incompatible ideas. I don't think I'm explaining it well. Something along the lines of having it dramatically thrust upon me that I can't rely on him in some ways freed me up to trust more in what I can rely on.
Ugh. Hard to explain.
Posted by antigua3 on September 6, 2007, at 9:16:01
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - it was fleeting - trigger » DAisym, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2007, at 7:52:55
"It's weird. But somehow it feels better than it did before, before I held those incompatible ideas. I don't think I'm explaining it well. Something along the lines of having it dramatically thrust upon me that I can't rely on him in some ways freed me up to trust more in what I can rely on."
I know exactly what you mean. I feel the same way about my pdoc. Sometimes I think that I'm still being hugely defensive because I don't always know where the line is on whether or not he cares, how much, etc., but at this point it's easier to push him away and make my boundaries stricter than his so that I feel protected. He can't give me what I want, but he helps me to understand how I can give it to myself.
antigua
Posted by RealMe on September 6, 2007, at 17:04:41
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » Dinah, posted by DAisym on September 5, 2007, at 22:22:30
When I did my postdoc training at Menninger's, they wanted everyone in analysis. So, most Menninger trained people have had analysis. It is how one becomes an analyst, and so I am not surprissed at the response you got.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by RealMe on September 6, 2007, at 17:08:53
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » RealMe, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2007, at 7:36:06
You are probably right; most would not know how to handle it as it is not discussed in school per se. I know we talked about how to handle it in my posdoc training, but then this was a psychoanalytic institution. Maybe others think if they keep it very brief, it won't happen. Fat chance.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2007, at 12:10:18
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » Dinah, posted by RealMe on September 6, 2007, at 17:08:53
> You are probably right; most would not know how to handle it as it is not discussed in school per se. I know we talked about how to handle it in my posdoc training, but then this was a psychoanalytic institution. Maybe others think if they keep it very brief, it won't happen. Fat chance.
>
> RealMe
> (OzLand)The "I don't DO transference" school of thought. As if "transference" isn't a fairly normal part of many human interactions, even if you don't call it that.
I think it's that way with all professions really. College teaches the theory, and you're supposed to apply the theory to the hands on work. The difference is that where there's a work product there is a de facto very very long training period. Even as you move up the chain, your end product is out there to view, and you get lots of feedback and guidance. But in therapy, even with supervision and internship, most of the "product" is out of view. The internship and supervision is of shorter duration. And I'd think there would be a greater temptation to spin your activities to your supervisor, since the product really isn't in such plain view.
Add to that the many paths to becoming a therapist, each with its own training...
I've often jokingly said that therapists in training should be required to read Babble and In Session. But I'm not sure it's really funny. I think informed and interested consumers could add a lot to education.
Posted by RealMe on September 7, 2007, at 19:28:41
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » RealMe, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2007, at 12:10:18
Dinah
I had to audiotape sessions on internship, and so no getting around what happened in sessions. Plus I had more supervison than most people get on an internship and by Menninger trained people. At Menninger's for my postdoc, I had tons of supervision as well, and with therapy patients, we had to do process notes. This means you have to learn to reconstruct the session from memory. Starting out with:
Patient: xxxxx.
Therapist: xxxx
Patient: xxxx
etc.It is really hard to do, and as the research says, it is easiest to remember the beginning and end and less easy to remember the middle, but one does get better at it. Why would I or anyone who had the opportunityh to train where I did want to squander the training by trying to pull a fast one over a supervisor??? It would have been darn hard to do there too. I sure didn't try to do anything of the sort. I guess I am not so cynical about this, but I know it comes up in therapy and we talked about how to handle things of this sort in group supervision as well as in individual supervison. It is just too important a topic to ignore in my opinion.
RealMe (OzLand)
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2007, at 20:40:27
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » Dinah, posted by RealMe on September 7, 2007, at 19:28:41
I meant no offense. Perhaps I am a bit cynical. The therapy room just seems so insulated - much more so than most work settings. And certainly the people I come across at work don't seem eager to showcase their flaws. Neither do I for that matter. Even though flaws are pretty visible no matter what level of experience you have.
On the other hand, having my sessions tape recorded is so far from what I'd accept that it didn't even come to mind. My therapist once had a tape recorder sitting in his room, clearly not running and with no tape in it, and I still asked him to unplug it. Trust is not easy for me. Trusting a tape recorder would be impossible. I even checked for the longest time that he took minimal notes.
Me? Paranoid?
:)
I have heard about videotaped sessions, so I do know they happen.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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