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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on May 20, 2007, at 10:34:51
Some days he says he will. Other days he clearly won't. Last session when we talked about it, I was very clear that not only did I consider it unacceptable, but a sizeable percentage of Babblers did too. I suggested that perhaps he lost clients over it and never knew because they didn't tell him. He answered that he doubted it because all their cell phones were ringing, and they were answering it.
I just can't understand this. At my office, we'd be chastized if we brought our cell phones into an important meeting. They're to be turned off entirely or left elsewhere. It's considered a sign of respect for the work that's being done. I don't understand why he doesn't respect the therapeutic space. I don't understand why he doesn't insist that his clients respect the therapeutic space.
I guess it's not a hill I want to choose to make my stand, because I'm not willing to follow through on anything. He can basically do whatever he likes with me, because my only recourse is to walk away, and he knows I won't do that, and I know I won't do it.
Boy, my mood is all over the place. Friday I was in quite a good mood, but over the weekend I've gotten to a place where everything just seems undoable. My husband is constantly critical of me around the house, and rightly so. My job is constantly critical of me, and rightly so. The two days I've been using the CPAP has actually left me more tired than ever, although I didn't think that was possible. Not even caffeine pills, tea, diet coke, red bull, provigil, and anything else I can think of is managing to keep me awake and alert. With no way to improve my situation clear to me if the daytime sleepiness doesn't ease, I just want to give up and escape.
Posted by Phillipa on May 20, 2007, at 11:27:50
In reply to He'll never turn off his cell phone, posted by Dinah on May 20, 2007, at 10:34:51
Do you think any of the tiredness is from this past week with the babble problems? You must have been very busy. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on May 20, 2007, at 12:02:26
In reply to Re: He'll never turn off his cell phone » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on May 20, 2007, at 11:27:50
Not me. Not busy at all. It's been quite quiet for me.
Dr. Bob is likely tired.
Posted by jost on May 20, 2007, at 12:25:14
In reply to He'll never turn off his cell phone, posted by Dinah on May 20, 2007, at 10:34:51
Your T is in the minority, at the least. I think he's wrong-- but maybe he has some good reason--even an irrational reason-- that he can't quite explain, but just feels.
My T has done things that I felt were wrong-- and really to this day think were wrong-- but he asserted his privilege to do them-- despite my deep sense of their being hurtful and wrong.
Do I accept it-- I still don't really-- but I also do-- I guess I 've decided that he has the right to define things that he will and won't do- just as I do also. If I feel that I have the right to do things he doesn't approve or feel comfortable with-- which I don't necessarily know about or justify to him.
I:"ve come to see it in terms of his needing some comfort level that's important to him in working, that permits him-- or creates the conditons that he needs--to be with me in this way. Even if I don't understand it, or find it grating or painful. - I just try to accept that- per se-- that I need him to have that comfort level, to be with me in the way I need and want-- even if that thing ins't what I need or what.
So I take it with the good-- and accept it as part of him-- and therefore all right, because all of him is all right. It's a paradox you ahve to struggle with until you see your way to accepting it-- if he's making it a condition. You know? You can't fight the parts of the other person that don t'fit with you-- once they've heard your feelings and say they can't accommodate.
So my hope is that-- despite your and my and many babblers' feelings-- you can find a way to accept that too. I say this, despite my taking strong exception to the phone myself-- on the merits. And despite my having asked my T, last week. My T, who is a training analyst, also found it quite exceptionable and not what he thought right. But ultimately, that isn't what matters.
There's going to be something-- some place where he and you don't fit, where you have to shift, or just bit the bullet and swallow it whole. Making peace with it-- digesting it without condoning or liking it--and finding some element of nutrition, however small or compensatory in it, is maybe something worth coming to, even if it takes a hard bit of bitter taste.
I'm very very sorry about the sleep problems-- I know how awful it feels to be bone tired and stressed and squeezed out by exhaustion-- are you sure you couldn't just use some seroquel for a while? It really works for me. There's also remeron at low doses-- also it works too well (for me). You just need to find a way, some way, to get sleep-- or you can't function or feel even vaguely okay. So you've got to do what it takes.
((Dinah))
Honore
Posted by Dinah on May 20, 2007, at 13:36:03
In reply to Re: He'll never turn off his cell phone, posted by jost on May 20, 2007, at 12:25:14
I think you're right. I just need to make the adjustment from having it be something that I'd really like him to change to something I accept.
I guess I'm in the process, but not really letting go of the resentment yet.
It probably has a lot to do with the different meanings we place on what it means. But I'm also going to have to find some way to keep the track of what I was saying while I pause politely to let him do whatever he's doing with the phone. :)
It's not the getting to sleep that's the problem, or even the staying asleep. It is the staying awake the next day. I don't know what's wrong. I was hoping that it was that my sleep was interrupted by mild apnea events. But if that's not it, I and my doctor don't really have much of a clue. The sleep study had some mild findings, but nothing to account for it.
Posted by gazo on May 20, 2007, at 14:19:58
In reply to He'll never turn off his cell phone, posted by Dinah on May 20, 2007, at 10:34:51
the tiredness... i am guessing they have already tested everything bloodwork-wise? i have some similar issue with tiredness we haven't figured out so i am hot on that trail as well. i am thinking mine is hormonal. But my GP, upon learning about my stressors suggested it might just be a stress rxn. He could be right. Is that a possibility for you? You talk a lot about work stress... maybe you really want a change? Dunno..just tossing it out there.
other things which have helped the tiredness somewhat: taking more vitamin supplements and taking oil of oregano (a LOT of people suffer tiredness due to overgrowth of intestinal yeasts but for some reason docs don't test for this)... exercise helps some too.
With the cell phone.. i am sad about that. Did you tell him exactly what you just said? That he isn't respecting the space or you and you feel he can do whatever he wants because he knows he can? If you have then he should know that is controlling behaviour on his part that verges on abuse IMO... because if he is aware of that then he is actively helping you create a disempowered image of yourself...
i know you don't/won't make a stand over it.. but i think it certainly should be pushed. How does he justify his obstanance? (sp?) It's not like you are objecting to his choice of clothing or something. Maybe calculate the per minute cost of your therapy and deduct the amount of time/money based on the amount of time the phone is ringing or he is on it? He could hardly make a stand on that either... he isn't going to refuse to see you based on that. i don't know about this either as i am pig-headed and have been known to go to jackassery when pushed too hard.
(((((dinah))))))
Posted by gardenergirl on May 20, 2007, at 17:14:33
In reply to He'll never turn off his cell phone, posted by Dinah on May 20, 2007, at 10:34:51
You know what, Dinah? Feel free to tell him I said so, but his answer is crappy and self-serving. It doesn't matter a bit what other clients do. Frankly, that he lets that go with them without comment is telling. But YOU are asking him for common courtesy--for his full attention--for respect. It doesn't matter whether he does that with other clients or not, YOU are asking for it, and it's not at all an unreasonable request. I'm still dumbfounded that you even have to bring it up, but that's another thing.
There's no reason he can't accommodate you for the duration of your sessions. No legitimate reason, anyway. There are tons of explanations, though most are not flattering to him. And you can tell him I said that, too.
I'd start keeping track of the interruptions. For every time he looks at his phone, you deduct a set amount from his fee. If he actually answers the phone, you deduct the equivalent amount based on the number of minutes it took, plus a penalty. If he wants to go on being that rude; if he wants to go on signaling to you that you are not as important as any random caller, or perhaps as the minimal effort it would take to put away the phone for an hour, then you get a break in paying him. Why pay for time he's not spending on you? So he can put it away, or he can pay. And let me know if you go with the latter...if you give me his number and tell me when your sessions are, I'll give a call or two just to get the ball rolling. :)
Bah. I'm sorry you have to deal with this.
gg
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 20, 2007, at 17:21:43
In reply to Re: He'll never turn off his cell phone » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on May 20, 2007, at 17:14:33
I love you, GardenerGirl. I really, really do. LOL
And Good LORD, I've missed this place.
And GG is right, Dinah. I think you can stick to your guns without threatening to leave.
Posted by Phillipa on May 20, 2007, at 19:27:06
In reply to Re: He'll never turn off his cell phone, posted by jost on May 20, 2007, at 12:25:14
Jost are you Honore or Jost for future reference? Love Phillipa Boy it's going to be confusing for a few days for me at least
Posted by DisTraught on May 21, 2007, at 4:47:19
In reply to Re: He'll never turn off his cell phone » jost, posted by Dinah on May 20, 2007, at 13:36:03
Hi, Dinah,
I didn't see the previous thread on cell-phones during sessions, but it would sure bother the hell out of me. I'd find it utterly disrespectful My primary argument would be that I'm paying for his time, and I want his full attention. The distractions his cellphone make cost me too much :)
Go for it, Dinah. Stand up for yourself.Penny
Posted by Dinah on May 21, 2007, at 9:54:34
In reply to Re: He'll never turn off his cell phone » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on May 20, 2007, at 17:14:33
Where I recognize that continuing this battle will only cause bad feelings (to me, I mean, maybe him, but mostly me). I think I've hit resignation on the path to acceptance.
But maybe I'll try one more time to explain the respect issue, and the fact that I am hurt that he appears to be showing disrespect to the therapeutic space. But without any expectation of change, or even that he'll understand. Expectations hurt.
(gg, I printed out your post to spark talking points. I hope you don't mind.)
Posted by Dinah on May 21, 2007, at 10:13:32
In reply to Re: He'll never turn off his cell phone » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on May 20, 2007, at 17:14:33
I'm afraid that this is one area of my life where I just don't have the freedom of nonattachment. Or unattachment. I'm going to have to have my therapist write down which is which. And he knows it, darn him, that even at my most unattached, I'm still securely attached to him.
It's slipping in other areas of my life as well. I'm being bogged down and chained by attachment again. It feels lousy, and it's not at all good or healthy for me.
I want my freedom again.
Posted by raisinb on May 21, 2007, at 11:37:31
In reply to Re: He'll never turn off his cell phone » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on May 20, 2007, at 17:14:33
I think it's potentially a very effective solution to this issue.
I'm sorry, Dinah. That's one of my biggest fears, too, that getting very attached will just allow the other person to run all over me, because s/he knows s/he can. FWIW, I agree with other posters that your T's behavior is unacceptable.
Posted by rubenstein on May 21, 2007, at 12:09:42
In reply to He'll never turn off his cell phone, posted by Dinah on May 20, 2007, at 10:34:51
That is so bizarre, my T has only taken one call on his office phone for an emergency in the 4 years I have seen him. I would be upset if he took callse during my session, I know you are clsoe with your T but you have every right to ask him not to answer his phone. This issues bugs me. I am irritated with him for you
rachel
Posted by Dinah on May 21, 2007, at 12:31:02
In reply to Re: He'll never turn off his cell phone, posted by rubenstein on May 21, 2007, at 12:09:42
He doesn't actually answer it, except on very rare circumstances, and he'll tell me in advance that he might have to, and he apologizes. The only thing that bothers me about that is that I'd rather he step outside to answer, since I really don't want to overhear his personal conversations. But it's very rare.
What he does is put it on vibrate on the table next to him, and pick it up when it rings and see who is calling. It takes probably less than a minute, but it's very distracting to me. I can't continue talking when he's picking up the phone and looking at it, or fiddling with it, or placing it back with a last look. And what would be the point, since he is obviously not listening anyway.
Last time it came up, he was absolutely cool until I mentioned the checking the number part. Then he flushed. And he said something about it never ringing as much as it did in our sessions. Which must be incorrect, since I'm sure I interrupted the sessions of other poor clients often enough. I ought to start calling him at night, so I won't bother other clients.
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 21, 2007, at 20:46:34
In reply to To clarify, for his sake, posted by Dinah on May 21, 2007, at 12:31:02
Or call frequently DURING his other sessions so other clients will put pressure on him, too. I cannot imagine that no one else has a problem with it.
Posted by annierose on May 21, 2007, at 21:41:28
In reply to To clarify, for his sake, posted by Dinah on May 21, 2007, at 12:31:02
I know we have talked about this issue between us. My t also keeps her cell phone on vibrate. I'd guess it "rings" 2x per month (remember I see her 12 times in an average month). In 3 years, there was only one phone call she took and she apologized and gave me additional time at the end of the session.
What I am trying to say, it doesn't mean he is a bad person or has bad manners. I don't think of my t any less because she keeps her cell by her side. There has been a few occasions when I too have kept my cell on (a child home sick, an emergency at work, etc).
My t's cell phone is not her work number. She has given that number out but she has a main phone as well. To me, it's just background noise.
I hope you get some sense of peace and resolution around this issue. If you don't, every phone ring will bring hurt and anger when you can just let those feelings go by.
Annie
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2007, at 5:53:00
In reply to Re: To clarify, for his sake » Dinah, posted by annierose on May 21, 2007, at 21:41:28
I agree. I do need to just accept this about him.
Unfortunately this is his work phone, and it rings at least one or two times per fifty minute session.
But the thing is that I can't change him, and I'm not willing to walk, so I need to accept it.
Posted by spalding on May 26, 2007, at 22:28:14
In reply to Re: To clarify, for his sake » annierose, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2007, at 5:53:00
While my T. turns off his phone/pager during sessions, my pdoc does not, since his is on in case of emergencies. It rings occasionally, and he usually turns it off. But about twice in my four years of seeing my pdoc, he has interrupted our session and gotten on the phone, and it has clearly been in the case of a person who is in desperate straits, usually facing imminent hospitalization. I remember one or two times when pdoc interrupted a session to speak with me. He let me know this was the case, and thank g--d that he took a few minutes for me at the time.
Though my T. keeps his phone off, I typically have mine on, I just forget to turn it off since I don't get many calls. A couple of times, my pdoc has called while I'm in session with my T. My T. and my pdoc know when I am seeing each of them, since they work together. So pdoc will be trying to time things right before I go in with T., but sometimes overshoots the time. Usually pdoc will be calling in response to a message from me, which means I usually just need a minute of his time, and usually a bit of reassurance. So, when pdoc has called while T. and I are in session, I have always taken his call. I ask my T. to leave the room, he does, and gives me the time I need. He has reassured me that he doesn't see this as an affront, as he and pdoc work together on my case.
Anyway, all are rare occasions, and they're all good, all around...
Posted by Dinah on May 28, 2007, at 10:29:47
In reply to Re: To clarify, for his sake, posted by spalding on May 26, 2007, at 22:28:14
I'm ok with rare occasions. I have them myself, when I'm waiting for a very important call. And he tells me when he's expecting a very important call that he has to take. I'm ok with all of that.
And at least for now, he is turning off his ringer again. Of course, he's done that a couple of times and later lapsed.
But apparently he didn't realize that I considered it a question of respect for the therapeutic space. He just thought I was annoyed. And while he wasn't willing to change his policies for annoyed, he apparently is willing to bend for respect.
If he doesn't forget. :)
This is the end of the thread.
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