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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 39 to 63 of 63. Go back in thread:
Posted by widget on February 3, 2007, at 15:39:09
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure » Dinah, posted by tabitha on February 24, 2004, at 23:11:12
I am obviously viewing this two years later than it was posted. I am intrigued. I am extremely curious about how my therapist really feels about me. Basically, does he have any feelings of attraction for me? What would I do with this information? Nothing. But, I have been wondering about this for 6 months and trying to guess at the answer. He is very careful to be neutral on the subject and I doubt he would even answer if I asked directly. If only there was some way to know? Any advice? Thanks. I am very preoccupied by this.
Posted by ShortElise on February 3, 2007, at 17:43:38
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure, posted by widget on February 3, 2007, at 15:39:09
Part of the therepeutic process can be to work out other relationships with our therapists. If you're wondering about it, talk about it. The more aspects of your feelings about your T (and anybody else!) you can talk about, the better. A well trained T will treat you and your feelings with respect, and will understand that he is a stand-in for others in your life. It's not about HIM, it's about YOU. They know that.
It's not easy.
Therapy world as I see it...
Posted by widget on February 3, 2007, at 23:34:40
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure » widget, posted by ShortElise on February 3, 2007, at 17:43:38
Yes, but will I ever know how he feels about me? It would make an enormous difference to me. He is so kind and accepting which certainly feels liked love. But, if only I could read his mind...What should I do?
Posted by ShortElise on February 4, 2007, at 0:01:17
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure » ShortElise, posted by widget on February 3, 2007, at 23:34:40
What should you do? Well, what I have done is accept that my T respects me, that he is a good T, that he feels some affection for me at times, that he feels annoyed with me at times, that I bore him sometimes, and that we don't talk about his feelings unless it's helpful to my therapy.
If a T begins to have feelings for client/patients that are inappropriate s/he would, I think, go to see an advisor (I can't think of the right word for that at the moment) and if it can't be resolved - by the T outside of the relationship with his client - the T sends that client on to someone else.
I think there are lots of kinds of love. I love my cats, I love pasta with smoked salmon cream sauce, I love my husband, and I love a long, hot bath after a hard day. I love my best friend, and I love my old jeans. What I feel from my T doesn't fit into any of those loves. And if I call it feeling cared about, feeling safe, feeling respected and seen and heard - that's not love. That's more important than feeling he loves me. I don't need him to love me. I need him to care, hear, see, listen, and respect. But none of it has to do with touching or loving.
Were he ever to say to me that he loves me, I would lose faith in him, and in the therapy I've had with him. There have been times when he's had feelings that I've picked up on - anger, frustration, fatigue - and that have affected my therapy, so we've talked about them, but he always takes responsibility for his own feelings. And I can tell sometimes that he's feeling affection toward me. It's lovely. But I don't want to be loved by him. He's a fine man, my age, nice to look at, intelligent, very well educated, has varied interests, a family, etc. but I just want him to be my therapist, and to continue to be a kind, caring therapist. And for his sake, I hope he doesn't love me. It would have to be a strange kind of love .. he has so many patients, and if he loved some of us, it would be so hard for him.
I hope this all makes sense and is in some way helpful.
SE
Posted by Daisym on February 4, 2007, at 0:15:01
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure » ShortElise, posted by widget on February 3, 2007, at 23:34:40
The question is, would you believe him even if he told you? There is always that voice that says,
"this is his job. He HAS to say he cares about me."How long have you been in therapy with this therapist? After 3 1/2 years with mine, he still reminds me that what he says is less important that what I feel from him and implicitly know. However, he will answer my questions, he does tell me he cares about me and we talk about "our" relationship all the time.
I would encourage you to take the leap and talk about your feelings for your therapist. I think you will be surprised how it opens up your therapy.
btw, for what it's worth, these are very common feelings and a good therapist will expect them.
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2007, at 11:41:29
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure » widget, posted by ShortElise on February 4, 2007, at 0:01:17
I could have written the same thing. :)
Posted by widget on February 5, 2007, at 8:26:28
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure » widget, posted by ShortElise on February 4, 2007, at 0:01:17
Yes, you make great sense. My dilemna is this: in therapy, we are supposed to be emotionally honest. I am being emotionally honest when I tell my psychiatrist/therapist that I love him. It is a real entity. He counter that it is transference. I have come to agree. My point is that it is both transference and love. Negating the feeling I have of love is negating or invalidating my inner reality which is what I assumed would not happen in therapy. I don't understand why we cannot talk about my feeling instead of him dismissing it as "transference" which I will grow out of. And, I may. However, I, in therapy, have begun to learn to trust myself and my feelings. Therefore, do I trust me or do I, as I have all my life, negate me in order to agree with him and make him comfortable.
I wonder why he cannot address my feeling toward him or accept that a lot of my feeling is due to him and his desirable and admirable characteristics. Until now, he has always validated what I have expressed to him. That is what has made this such good therapy and why I begin to trust him. And, I have told him this; that this is the one time he cannot validate the inner (real) me. So, do I put on the fake me? Sounds couterproductive, indeed.
I am left with wondering why he is so uncomfortable with my feelings directed at him. Yes, the feelings are intense. Perhaps, he really doesn't like me and I am grossing him out.
I am seriously confused and stuck in the therapy at this point. I need him to let me know the therapy can handle these feelings and deal with them instead of reading my Miranda rights about transference. Of course, the other possibility is that he is just uncomfortable hearing good things about himself and must automatically label such as due to transference in order to protect himself for whatever reason. I am feeling like his therapist. According to the book, In Session, this is called "gaslighting." It basically means I feel crazy for having these feelings when they are dismissed and not dealt with. He told me it was ok for us to disagree and that's fine, but I thought he would help me look more closely at this which is the only way I think it can be resolve. Thanks for reading. I'm confused.
Posted by widget on February 5, 2007, at 8:32:14
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure, posted by widget on February 5, 2007, at 8:26:28
Sorry about the typos but I am in hurry. One other item to add is that I have been in therapy with this psychiatrist for 3 l/2 years and only began to experience "transference" 6 months ago. I have read extensively in the literature regarding this. I am really trying.
Posted by widget on February 5, 2007, at 11:58:05
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure, posted by widget on February 5, 2007, at 8:26:28
> My dilemna is this: in therapy, we are supposed to be emotionally honest. I am being emotionally honest when I tell my psychiatrist/therapist that I love him. It is a real entity. He counter that it is transference. I have come to agree. My point is that it is both transference and love. Negating the feeling I have of love is negating or invalidating my inner reality which is what I assumed would not happen in therapy. I don't understand why we cannot talk about my feeling instead of him dismissing it as "transference" which I will grow out of. And, I may. However, I, in therapy, have begun to learn to trust myself and my feelings. Therefore, do I trust me or do I, as I have all my life, negate me in order to agree with him and make him comfortable.
> I wonder why he cannot address my feeling toward him or accept that a lot of my feeling is due to him and his desirable and admirable characteristics. Until now, he has always validated what I have expressed to him. That is what has made this such good therapy and why I begin to trust him. And, I have told him this; that this is the one time he cannot validate the inner (real) me. So, do I put on the fake me? Sounds couterproductive, indeed.
> I am left with wondering why he is so uncomfortable with my feelings directed at him. Yes, the feelings are intense. Perhaps, he really doesn't like me and I am grossing him out.
> I am seriously confused and stuck in the therapy at this point. I need him to let me know the therapy can handle these feelings and deal with them instead of reading my Miranda rights about transference. Of course, the other possibility is that he is just uncomfortable hearing good things about himself and must automatically label such as due to transference in order to protect himself for whatever reason. I am feeling like his therapist. According to the book, In Session, this is called "gaslighting." It basically means I feel crazy for having these feelings when they are dismissed and not dealt with. He told me it was ok for us to disagree and that's fine, but I thought he would help me look more closely at this which is the only way I think it can be resolved. Thanks for reading. I'm confused.
I have been in therapy with him for 3 1/2 years and only began to experience these intense feelings 6 months ago.
Posted by ShortElise on February 5, 2007, at 13:58:38
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure, posted by widget on February 5, 2007, at 8:26:28
Ok, now I see.
If it were me, I'd print out that elqouent post of your and give it to him. You make very, very good points. Maybe if he reads what you have written, he'll get it.
Keep us posted, please. And take care of yourself. You're not crazy to call what you feel toward him as love - it's your emotion, and you can call it whatever you like. It might be a question on sematics, and he'd feel better if you said it differently, but I think you're right - it's up to him to be your therapist and to try to see your perspective. No, please, widget, don't negate your feelings.
In your first post, you said you needed to know if he loved you. You don't mention that here.
If you feel you are madly in love with him, want to have sex with him, make babies and live happily ever after, there's probably a lot of transference in there. I think that's pretty "normal". But that, as I've said before, is not the only way to love.
Again, keep us posted and take care.
SE
Posted by ShortElise on February 5, 2007, at 14:00:56
In reply to Can transference and love exist together?, posted by widget on February 5, 2007, at 11:58:05
Yes, I think transference and love can co-exist.
Posted by widget on February 5, 2007, at 17:05:08
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure » widget, posted by ShortElise on February 5, 2007, at 13:58:38
oh, thank you for the validating response. Your advice is good but extremely hard to take. I, like so many others who write here, am so afraid of offending my psychiatrist. No doubt, this is due to my fear of abandonment. Perhaps I should prepare something in writing because when I am there, I can never think of all the coherent points I'd like to make. On the good side, he has assured me he will not abandon me ever. That is a good thing.
Also, a few sessions after I told him my feelings, he sought supervision from his analyst because he said transference is incredibly important but therapists sometimes do not get enough experience with it and he wanted to make sure he did it right. I was flattered that he contacted this analyst about me especially since he had told me previously he hadn't spoken to him in a very long time. Maybe his advice was to do what he is now doing. hmmm. Food for thought. Yes, I will always wonder what the hell he REALLY thinks of me but I am trying to accept that he will never really be totally candid. I know he doesn't wish to encourage me.
Posted by ShortElise on February 5, 2007, at 17:39:43
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure, posted by widget on February 5, 2007, at 17:05:08
I feel mine *IS* candid about how he feels about me: he likes me and respects me. There is no subtext. Once, many years ago, in tears I told him that I wanted him to love me (I wanted maternal love) and he kindly and sweetly explained that I cannot expect that from him.
Listen, Widget, love is not what they give us. But I agree that you have to talk this through.
You make me laugh - "I can never think of all the coherent points I'd like to make". You sure aren't alone in that!!
I keep a journal. It's helped me to keep everything in one place, sort of.
SE
Posted by widget on February 5, 2007, at 18:11:57
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure » widget, posted by ShortElise on February 5, 2007, at 17:39:43
Thanks again. I guess that is what I really want: love. And, that is what I am having trouble accepting. In a nutshell.
Posted by ShortElise on February 5, 2007, at 20:30:34
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure, posted by widget on February 5, 2007, at 18:11:57
(((widget)))
(I hope a hug is o.k.)
SE
Posted by Daisym on February 6, 2007, at 0:30:53
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure, posted by widget on February 5, 2007, at 18:11:57
I think you've stumbled on one of the most painful paths in therapy - learning to feel love and express it. If your therapist isn't handling it as well as he might, he isn't alone. The fact that he went for help is so admirable, but still, he wants to "get it right" and I don't really think there is a right here. Allowing love into the room is just like allowing anger, or hate - and yet love scares people more than these other two expected emotional responses. I know so many therapists who sort of rub their hands together in glee when the anger appears -- they are ready to take anything you can fling at them...but begin the love conversation and they turn into puddles.
I've told this story here before - but it is worth telling again. When I began to talk about the range of feelings I was having for my therapist, I talked all around the word love. I "cared about him" - I felt "intensely" for him, I missed him, needed him, etc. One afternoon, we were talking about the double-edge sword of my feelings and he said, "why do you feel so bad for having these loving feelings for me? I'm honored by them. No matter what you've seen in the movies, this just doesn't happen that often." The tears welled up for me and I said, "I'm ashamed and scared to say this is love." He said, "why?"
It was raining and his office is up high in the trees and is surrounded on three sides with windows. It was completely quiet, all you could hear was the rain and the trees dripping. I finally whispered, "because you aren't mine to love." And he said, "but I'm here. And in here, I am yours. Therapy love is very special, something to be cared for and to be nurtured...and I'll treat it with all the tenderness and respect it deserves. That doesn't mean we do anything with it, we just accept it and it is totally OK that you feel this way."
Since then we've identified all the different aspects of this love - mostly maternal but laced with adult loneliness too. I still smile inside when he refers to my "loving" feelings - it doesn't sound so bad like that. I should tell you also that my therapist's wife is a therapist and works next door in his other office (I see him there too) so it was difficult to admit all this on so many levels.
Normally I'd say, "keep talking about this." But if you clearly have a therapist who can't or won't, perhaps getting a consult with another therapist might help. It sometimes helps to have a fresh pair of ears on the subject. Good luck and know that what you are feeling is really, really normal.
Posted by widget on February 6, 2007, at 7:26:14
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure » widget, posted by Daisym on February 6, 2007, at 0:30:53
To Daisym, Thank you for sharing. It will take me some time to mull over all you have said. At the beginning of your message, you question him getting supervision in order to get it "right." Can you explain what you think about this in more detail? Do you think it means he is just really uncomfortable with the topic? And does that disqualify him from dealing with it or is it his issue to work on? I'm really curious and so relieved that I can talk to someone about this as he has been the only resource I have had. It gets very lonely. With sincerity.
Posted by ShortElise on February 6, 2007, at 11:51:19
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure » widget, posted by Daisym on February 6, 2007, at 0:30:53
You are wonderful.
SE
Posted by Daisym on February 6, 2007, at 16:35:17
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure, posted by widget on February 6, 2007, at 7:26:14
I sincerely meant it when I said it was admirable that he went to talk someone about how to handle this. It takes a lot of strength to do that. I don't know if he is uncomfortable or just inexperienced with this kind of thing. But you said he went to figure out how to do it "right" instead of how to work with it with *you* -- and perhaps that is why you are at the impasse. I guess even if we know it is transference, it isn't all that helpful to label feelings as if that explains everything and no more curiosity is needed. Does that disqualify him from dealing with it? --- NO. Of course not. There are many, many therapists who are used to doing a different type of therapy but stretch themselves to meet the needs of the individual clients. Other therapists decide they don't want to work with transference, other than acknowledge that it exists. Only you can decide if you can tolerate if and how he is willing to work with your feelings about him. I believe there are posters here who have talked about "training" their therapists around this exact topic. You asked if it is his issue to work on? Yes. But it is yours too. And together, in the therapy, it seems to be an issue.
I can only tell you from my own experience that when we talk about these feelings, the questions asked aren't really about finding a right answer, but instead what it means for my internal life. For example, what does it mean to me to be allowed to love someone without them wanting anything back from me, especially physically? What are the risks of having such strong feelings for someone? How angry am I at him at times that he isn't as available to me as I'd like him to be? What am I am learning by being able to talk about anything and everything with him?
Fundamentally, for me, I think if there were topics that my therapist said were "off limits" having to do with me and not his personal life, I would be on alert at all times for making a mistake and crossing into these subjects. I've worried for a long while about doing therapy wrong. Besides, banging into boundaries is really painful for me, I don't want subject boundaries added to the list.
I hope this makes some sense and isn't too long. I am fortunate to have a psychodynamic, depth therapist who is very experienced and specializes in long term therapy. (But I knew none of that when I started.) I'm skittish, I struggle with all the audible honesty expected of me and I want to run from therapy every other week. It is really hard, hard work. But hang in there. Every once in a while you have those sessions that makes it all worth it.
Posted by sunnydays on February 6, 2007, at 17:36:46
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure » widget, posted by Daisym on February 6, 2007, at 0:30:53
Daisy, I absolutely love that story, and I don't think I'd ever get sick of hearing it. I too have been thinking recently that maybe I love my therapist - not romantically, more in father-daughter way, but love is such a hard word, so loaded. I've told him I care about him, that he matters to me. I just don't know if I could ever say to him that I love him.
sunnydays
Posted by Daisym on February 6, 2007, at 23:21:04
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure » Daisym, posted by ShortElise on February 6, 2007, at 11:51:19
You know the admiration is mutual, right? I've been thinking about you a lot lately, as anger has entered my therapy space. You've been candid about the ways you've shown your therapist you are angry with him, but your relationship continues. I hold on to that, as my terror of driving my therapist away escalates.
The value of babble should never be underestimated. Never-Ever.
Hugs,
Daisy
Posted by ShortElise on February 7, 2007, at 1:52:27
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure » ShortElise, posted by Daisym on February 6, 2007, at 23:21:04
Daisy, I was odious at times with the poor man. And months after it was over (just in case you missed this part) he said something about the normalcy of my anger and that it was acceptable, and I just cried. To have one's "bad behavior" seen as acceptable in the circumstances ... was so ... I don't know...
And to know that here it helps you, too...
Posted by JoniS on February 7, 2007, at 8:30:13
In reply to Re: from Ms. Schmidt: therapist self disclosure » Daisym, posted by ShortElise on February 7, 2007, at 1:52:27
I want to tell you all how helpful your posts have been to me. This is my first post but I've read a lot lately. Your issues are so similar to mine. My T is very good, but I wish he would disclose a little more. I am curious about him and his life, and I think I could trust him more if I could ask him some questions and not be fearful of bumping into another boundary. When I do, I guess I feel rejection (even though I know it isn't it feels like it) I put my T on a pedestal and I believe he is awesome and that he has a great marriage. Part of the reason is that I began seeing him due to my husband's unfaithfulness, and a subsequent major change in our lives. I was extremely depressed but much better now, thankfully.
I've been seeing my T for 3.5 years. I know I feel love for him, but I dance around talking about it. It was helpful to me to read one of you described it as "Therapy love" I don't really know what I want from him besides being professional and respectful, and somehow caring.
Sorry so long. Thanks for your openness and just sharing your experiences
J
Posted by widget on February 7, 2007, at 11:38:21
In reply to therapist self disclosure » ShortElise, posted by JoniS on February 7, 2007, at 8:30:13
Thank you to everyone who contributed advice. There is wisdom in each one. Yes, my psychiatrist did definitely do the right thing to seek supervision but, and I guess I'll never know the answer, why did he need it? What was there about me that resulted in supervision about my case? It's all about wanting to know more about what goes on in his head. I have been reading about self-disclosure from the therapist's point of view and learned some believe in it and some do not. Perhaps I got one who doesn't share. Why does it mean so much to me? Because HE means so much to me and is often oblique about how he feels toward me. Although, I do know he feels warmly and cares. This gives me courage to see him tomorrow. I'm fine until I get to the office and turn into a bowl of jello. I usually have to wait and its agony. How can I calm down in the waiting room? Every noise makes me jump. Thanks!
Posted by ShortElise on February 7, 2007, at 14:16:16
In reply to therapist self disclosure » ShortElise, posted by JoniS on February 7, 2007, at 8:30:13
If I had known more about him in the first years I saw him (8 years now), I don't think I could have done the work we've done.
Joni, I think I felt unlovable, and when I understood that my T doesn't and would never love me, it felt like a confirmation that I was unlovable.
You are ever so welcome.
This is the end of the thread.
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