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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 11:11:25
In reply to Hospitalization, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 11:10:28
> I have also spent time in psychiatric hospitals, so I know the shame you are talking about.
Vwoolf, we seem to have a lot of unfortunate things in common. It is so wonderful to be able to connect with you. Other than the people I was hospitalized with at the time, I have never talked with anyone else who has spent time in a psychiatric hospital.
>Worse than the shame though is the sense that I am crazy, both because my thoughts and obsessions feel crazy at times and because it was confirmed by being hospitalised - sort of like getting the certificate.
I totally get what you mean by the "certificate" both literally and figuratively. I had a stack of them because they kept committing me. After one committal ran out, they'd commit me again and hand me a piece of paper to make it official.My therapist insists that I'm not crazy and I'm like, okay, if I'm not crazy, how come they locked me up in a hospital for crazy people.
> I don't really have a diagnosis apart from depression and anxiety. I struggle to accept PTSD as a diagnosis because it feels like all the blame is being placed on the traumatic situation and doesn't explain the feelings of madness inside me.
Since 9/11, with PTSD being in the news so much and everybody claiming to have it, I think it may be the least stigmatizing of the mental illnesses to have. Maybe?? For exactly that reason you state. Because the blame can be placed on the traumatic situation instead of on some flaw inside the person.There is so much prejudice against the mentally ill. I once listened to someone making disparaging comments about a person because they'd admitted they went to therapy for help with everyday normal problems. I remember thinking wow, if they only knew I'd been locked up on a psych ward.
>My therapist insists that it is all to do with poor attachment and csa, but there is a part of this thing, and I don't know what to call it, this madness thing, that I have colluded with and that is part of me. To get better I will need to change a part of me.I think I understand what you mean by "this madness thing" but I'm not sure what you mean by "colluded" with it. Do you mean you think you welcomed or invited the madness into you or that you deliberately do things that perpetuate it?
(This thread has grown so long and we are talking about a different topic now. I don't know if this is kosher, but I hope it is okay with you if I start another thread and move this post there? I hope this isn't against board etiquette. I'll call it Hospitalization. Maybe you could answer this post there, if you still want to continue this conversation?)
Posted by zenhussy on February 3, 2007, at 12:05:19
In reply to Hospitalization, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 11:10:28
Posted by Fallsfall on February 3, 2007, at 13:21:04
In reply to Hospitalization, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 11:10:28
Twice - voluntary (though one time I was told that if I didn't sign myself in that they would put me in involuntarily).
Both times were helpful for me. I learned a lot and came out stronger.
Posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 13:54:22
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by Fallsfall on February 3, 2007, at 13:21:04
> Both times were helpful for me. I learned a lot and came out stronger.Hi Fallsfall,
I'm curious how you "learned a lot and came out stronger."
In my own life, I was horribly traumatized, which made me ill in the first place and then my hospitalization was very traumatizing as well so now I'm left trying to recover from both. Being hospitalized only compounded my problems.
What did you learn? I know there are psychiatric programs that you can go into almost like courses, or like drug rehab and such, where you have classes and learn. Were you in something like that? That wasn't anything like where I was. The hospital I was in was like something out of some bad movie. It's still hard for me to believe that they really do those kinds of things to mental patients.
So you felt you were helped and respected and treated with compassion? By everyone? And you observed that every other patient was treated that way as well?
Posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 13:58:59
In reply to involuntary--harmful---many, many years ago (nm), posted by zenhussy on February 3, 2007, at 12:05:19
Hi Zenhussy,
Is it too painful to talk about still?
In what ways was it harmful?
Posted by wishingstar on February 3, 2007, at 18:24:20
In reply to Hospitalization, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 11:10:28
Once, but only very briefly. About 48 hours. It was essentially involuntary, since they told me theyd force it if I didnt agree to sign myself in. I did not want to be there. I'd gone to the hospital with the goal of getting admitted (for the second time) to the day program.
I didnt really like it, although I was there such a short time, I guess it's hard to say. I like to be actively involved in my treatment, and I do know a good deal about this field, but none of the nurses seemed to take me seriously in the least. I felt like they responded to whatever I said as if I was 5 years old... "ok sweetie, sure, rightttt". I was there for depression and not in ANY way confused, etc. It felt a little partionizing.
The groups were a giant waste of my time. They were aimed at a fairly low-fuctioning crowd, people who cannot express themselves well. I'm neither of those things, and all I really wanted was someone to talk to, not to play their stupid little games. Almost all our time was spend sitting around doing nothing, and it really just gave me time to obesess about how badly I felt. Although there were some provisions to keep us safe (taking belts away, etc) other things were simply crazy - for instance, there were probably half a dozen TV cords throughout the unit, attached to TVs but not secured easily within reach. If I really wanted to hurt myself, I think I'd go for a TV cord before I went for my dental floss or chap stick, both which they took away. Again, felt a little ridiculous.
Luckily, I'd been in the day program once before and after enough complaining, they had the director of that program come over and talk with me. He completely agreed with me that it wasnt a good environment for me, and got them to release me the very next morning... hence the short stay... into his program the following week.
Even with what experience, I've actually been talking to my T about readmitting myself somewhere (not there) for a few days. I think it can be helpful in keeping you safe, but you have to be able to stomach a lot of things and advocate for yourself to some degree, which is hard when you're feeling that bad.
Posted by wishingstar on February 3, 2007, at 18:28:36
In reply to Hospitalization, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 11:10:28
I guess I didnt really answer part of your question. My time there was so brief I guess it's hard to say, but overall I think it was harmful. I was at a place in my life where I'd had a lot of choices taken away in the recent months (a poor termination with a therapist most noteably) and being forced into the unit against my will, when I know it really wasnt the right place for me, was hard to accept. Being treated like I didnt know anything, like a little kid, was hard to accept also. In some ways, I felt like I'd had all my rights as a human being taken away, and I KNEW I wasnt crazy and didnt need that kind of treatment. I dont have many friends or family that is involved, so I went through the entire process alone, and it was very scary. I cried my eyes out in the ER when they told me I wasnt leaving because I was just so afraid of it all.
I do have to say though, there was one positive effect. My mood actually improved some when I was released, just because I'd been released! I guess that isnt their goal though. Thank goodness for the director of the day program is all I can say, because even though I knew it was a bad place for me to be, there was no way they were going to believe that without someone elses word.
Posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 19:16:15
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by wishingstar on February 3, 2007, at 18:24:20
>but none of the nurses seemed to take me seriously in the least. I felt like they responded to whatever I said as if I was 5 years old... "ok sweetie, sure, rightttt". I was there for depression and not in ANY way confused, etc. It felt a little partionizing.
Yup. I don't know what to write back to you. I really want to talk about my own experiences but when I start to think about it, it is so upsetting and triggering. I'll just say the nurses were not very nice where I was.
> Almost all our time was spend sitting around doing nothing,
and it really just gave me time to obesess about how badly I felt.Being locked up on a ward is mind-numbingly boring. There is nothing to do but sit in the day room watching tv. I think it makes you sicker not having anything to distract you, not being able to go anywhere or do anything. The environment does not promote wellness. I think it makes you sicker.
>I think it can be helpful in keeping you safe,It obviously kept me from killing myself -- but I would never say it kept me "safe." It was absolutely NOT a safe place. It was so not safe I still have nightmares about it.
Posted by Deneb on February 3, 2007, at 19:23:45
In reply to Hospitalization, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 11:10:28
I've been in the psych ward of the hospital for 72 hours involuntarily. I've never been in a psych hospital.
I was overwhelmed with school. I couldn't face taking my midterms. I OD'd on aspirin to try to get a note out of my midterms. I went to the school walk-in clinic to get a note. I told the doctor what I did and they called an ambulance for me. I didn't want to go, but they forced me.
While in the ER I pulled out my IV and the electrodes on my body and tried to escape. I got caught.
After spending a night in the ER and then on the general ward, I was transferred to the psych ward. They took away my clothes and made me wear hospital clothes. It was really really boring in the hospital. It was neither helpful nor harmful. The nurses mostly ignored my numerous requests for information on how to get out of the hospital. I was demanding to see the Mental Health Act and stuff like that. They were nice to me though. In retrospect I see how I was being a pain. I even threw a small tantrum and crossed the yellow and black striped line we weren't supposed to cross. I also threw some M&M's.
The nurses were nice to me. They never got angry at me. The doctors were nice too. The doctor gave me Ativan because I was frightened and couldn't sleep. My parents came to see me everyday and they even let my parents stay past visiting hours. The hospital didn't harm me in anyway. I'm not traumatized by my stay.
I'm not sure they helped me. I don't think helping me was the goal. They did help me get back into seeing my pdoc though.
Deneb*
Posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 19:28:02
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by wishingstar on February 3, 2007, at 18:28:36
> I was at a place in my life where I'd had a lot of choices taken away in the recent months (a poor termination with a therapist most noteably) and being forced into the unit against my will, when I know it really wasnt the right place for me, was hard to accept.
I don't believe you can truly help people by taking away their choices. I think that once you impose your will on someone else, once you believe it is acceptable to do that, it makes abuses that much easier to happen. Slippery slope.
>In some ways, I felt like I'd had all my rights as a human being taken away
I definitely felt this way. Some of the things that were done to me made me feel less than human.
Posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 20:20:12
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by Deneb on February 3, 2007, at 19:23:45
Hi Deneb,
> I've been in the psych ward of the hospital for 72 hours involuntarily. I've never been in a psych hospital.
I've been in both a psych ward of a general hospital and in a psychiatric hospital. It was for a lot longer than 72 hours. A lot longer (but everyone is posting that they were in for only a few days so I'm feeling embarassed to admit how long I was hospitalized for)
> I was overwhelmed with school. I couldn't face taking my midterms. I OD'd on aspirin to try to get a note out of my midterms. I went to the school walk-in clinic to get a note.I hope you know now that they would have given you a note if you had explained how you were feeling. You didn't have to OD to get the note.
>The nurses mostly ignored my numerous requests for information on how to get out of the hospital. I was demanding to see the Mental Health Act and stuff like that.It doesn't sound like you are upset that they ignored your requests. Had someone explained to you that they were only going to hold you for 72 hours and then you'd get out? Did you not understand and they refused to explain or were you just angry and asking an already answered question over and over again to bother them?
>They were nice to me though.I'm very very glad they were nice to you. You were very distressed and needed people to be kind to you.
Posted by zenhussy on February 3, 2007, at 20:52:13
In reply to Re: involuntary--harmful---many, many years ago, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 13:58:59
Posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 21:33:11
In reply to Is it too painful to talk about still? Yes :( (nm) » toojane, posted by zenhussy on February 3, 2007, at 20:52:13
I'm sorry the memories are still so painful even after many many years, Zenhussy. I hope this thread hasn't been too triggering for you.
That old adage "time heals all wounds" is a load of cr*p, isn't it?
Posted by Deneb on February 3, 2007, at 22:07:53
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » Deneb, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 20:20:12
> I've been in both a psych ward of a general hospital and in a psychiatric hospital. It was for a lot longer than 72 hours. A lot longer (but everyone is posting that they were in for only a few days so I'm feeling embarassed to admit how long I was hospitalized for)
Don't be embarrassed, it wasn't your fault. They probably needed to keep you safe. I'm glad you're here today.
> > I was overwhelmed with school. I couldn't face taking my midterms. I OD'd on aspirin to try to get a note out of my midterms. I went to the school walk-in clinic to get a note.
>
> I hope you know now that they would have given you a note if you had explained how you were feeling. You didn't have to OD to get the note.It was a stupid thing to do. I ended up dropping all my classes. This year I did get a note before I OD'd, but my note wasn't accepted. I took more than the recommended dose of aspirin again a few days ago. I went to the ER, but I was OK this time. This time I was free to leave.
> >The nurses mostly ignored my numerous requests for information on how to get out of the hospital. I was demanding to see the Mental Health Act and stuff like that.
>
> It doesn't sound like you are upset that they ignored your requests. Had someone explained to you that they were only going to hold you for 72 hours and then you'd get out? Did you not understand and they refused to explain or were you just angry and asking an already answered question over and over again to bother them?Yes they explained to me that there was no way out of the 72 hour hold, but I kept asking anyways. I was hoping for a loophole.
Deneb*
Posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 22:24:20
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » toojane, posted by Deneb on February 3, 2007, at 22:07:53
> They probably needed to keep you safe.
They kept me alive but they most definitely did not keep me safe.
>I'm glad you're here today.That's kind of you to say. I'm not glad.
> I was hoping for a loophole.That ever elusive loophole. I keep looking for it too.
Posted by vwoolf on February 4, 2007, at 1:28:10
In reply to Re: Is it too painful to talk about still? Yes :( » zenhussy, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 21:33:11
I'm also struggling to write about this. It's funny, I thought I had come to terms with it. I have been hospitalised three times. Once at age 16 for a couple of months for ECT in a private clinic, then three months in the psychiatric ward of a general hospital on an intensive programme of which I can remember nothing. The third time was in an old fashioned psychiatric hospital, complete with belfries and towers and gothic staircases. I applied for my records last year and was given permission to see them in the presence of the head psychiatrist. I went, it was hard. I still can't write about it. Sorry.
Posted by Craig on February 4, 2007, at 2:12:25
In reply to Hospitalization, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 11:10:28
I’ve had 12 psychiatric hospitalizations, beginning when I was a minor. The longest lasted 13 months, another lasted 3 months and the majority of the rest were for 6 weeks at a time. They just poured salt in my wounds. I have a dissociative disorder and am bipolar.
Posted by vwoolf on February 4, 2007, at 3:32:59
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by Craig on February 4, 2007, at 2:12:25
>>They just poured salt in my wounds.
This sounds very painful. Won't you say more?
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 9:35:09
In reply to Re: Is it too painful to talk about still? Yes :(, posted by vwoolf on February 4, 2007, at 1:28:10
> I still can't write about it. Sorry.
Please don't be sorry, vwoolf. I understand how hard it is. How do you find the words to use?
There is also the fear of other people's disbelief and censuring. I think it is so difficult for the general public to accept the fact that terrible abuses are happening because they don't want to believe that the doctors and nurses they may have to trust to care for them when they are sick are capable of doing these things -- to them as well.
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 9:54:54
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by Craig on February 4, 2007, at 2:12:25
Hi Craig,
> I’ve had 12 psychiatric hospitalizations, beginning when I was a minor.
Twelve. I can't imagine twelve. It is such a huge number. You must be a very strong person.
Were your hospitalizations voluntary or involuntary? Maybe a mixture? If you have experienced both, did you find a difference between the two? Were all admissions to the same hospital? If you were in different hospitals, were some better than others? What kinds of things made one better, if one was?
>They just poured salt in my wounds.Mine too. They widen them and made them much much deeper.
Posted by Fallsfall on February 4, 2007, at 10:14:18
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » Fallsfall, posted by toojane on February 3, 2007, at 13:54:22
I found these old posts:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030626/msgs/239100.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20040414/msgs/337387.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20031011/msgs/272603.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030913/msgs/261136.htmlIt is hard to write about even good hospital experiences. What are you trying to understand?
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 10:34:21
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by Fallsfall on February 4, 2007, at 10:14:18
> I found these old posts:
Thank you so much for taking the time to do that. I found them interesting to read.
> It is hard to write about even good hospital experiences. What are you trying to understand?
I just wanted an opportunity to share and hear about other people's experiences. I like hearing that you found hospitalization helpful. I didn't. But we can each share our stories without one nullifying the other.
I tend to find that if I say something bad happened to me, the general response often is "I'm sorry that happened to you but just because it did doesn't mean that it happens to everybody" which is very invalidating and a way of silencing me.
I am interested in hearing about everybody's experiences of hospitalization, good and bad. I was happy to hear that Deneb was treated kindly.
In one of your old posts, I found it very interesting to see you write "I loved being restricted because it made me feel safe and taken care of." That is so completely and utterly opposite to my experience. I did not feel safe or taken care of. Differences are fascinating to me.
I guess I'm trying to understand why some people are abused and some aren't, not only in hospitals but in life.
Posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 12:06:09
In reply to Re: Hospitalization, posted by Fallsfall on February 4, 2007, at 10:14:18
> What are you trying to understand?
I am curious about the reasons why your hospitalization was so wonderful and mine wasn't.
Why?
Is it the hospital itself? The programs your hospital offered were not available in the one I was in. There was no rolling down hills like children or marvellous art projects. Is that because of wealth? Your hospital sounds like it is well-funded. Or is the staff "better" in some way? More responsible or accountable or compassionate or skilled?
Or is it you? Is it something about you? Your attitude? If you had been in the hospital I was in, would you have enjoyed being there? Would those things happening not have bothered you somehow? Or would they have simply never have happened to you? Why?
Is there something I could have/should have done differently? Like that woman in Australia in that article on another thread, why was "she" wearing that dog collar? Her psychologist said she made him put it on her because she could not be helped any other way. She made dog collars necessary. He believes that. But I want to know how could that possibly be true?
Posted by vwoolf on February 4, 2007, at 12:53:33
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » Fallsfall, posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 12:06:09
>>Is there something I could have/should have done differently? Like that woman in Australia in that article on another thread, why was "she" wearing that dog collar? Her psychologist said she made him put it on her because she could not be helped any other way. She made dog collars necessary. He believes that. But I want to know how could that possibly be true? <<
Oh toojane, I understand where you're going with this - it's the same as I was saying about colluding with mental illness, of making it a part of ourselves.
But I don't like to hear you say it. There's something wrong about it.
I think it's important to keep going back to the origin, to our innocence, to the abuse, and to keep naming it. Everything else is a consequence.
Otherwise we end up accepting a diagnosis of masochistic personality disorder. And that is not ok.
Posted by Fallsfall on February 4, 2007, at 13:37:44
In reply to Re: Hospitalization » Fallsfall, posted by toojane on February 4, 2007, at 12:06:09
Yes, my hospital was well funded, but not everyone there felt that it was a good experience for them. So I think the hospital/program/staff do make a difference, but what each patient brings makes a difference, too. There is also the question of "fit". Hospital A might be great for me, but awful for you, while Hospital B could be the opposite. A given hospital might be a good fit for a patient at one point and a bad fit later on.
And we, as patients, don't always have control over what we bring. Particularly patients with mental illness. Often our issues prevent us from making use of the resources that are available.
I think that my hospitalizations were good in large part because I was able to see them as opportunities, rather than incarcerations. I saw it as an opportunity to work hard with lots of different kinds of support - support that wasn't otherwise available to me. But that doesn't mean that I didn't resist that support, or believe at some times that it wasn't what I needed. And my hospitalizations weren't ALL good - there were problems - but the benefits outweighed the problems. For instance, I refused to speak to the psychiatrist who had my case the first time when I went in again - I forced (against HIS better judgement) that I be assigned to a different doctor. And then I had a shouting match with the second doctor in the middle of the common room.
I also stayed each time for 2 weeks. The average stay was 3 or 4 days. If I had left after 3 days (particularly the second time), I might not be as positive about the experience.
It is all a matter of fit. What do YOU need NOW, and is THIS hospital able to provide it? That's a lot of variables.
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