![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by pegasus on August 18, 2006, at 10:27:42
In reply to Confused and update on hypnotist, posted by antigua on August 18, 2006, at 9:34:47
It sounds like you're taking a very healthy approach to the hypnotism. In your shoes, I wouldn't tell your pdoc either. Seems likely to bring up a lot of conflict that isn't likely to be helpful. But who knows. Maybe lrp is right that you could learn something from hearing his perspective on that.
That's great that he helped you see things with your father in a new light! It's funny, isn't it, how sometimes just one brief exchange can change the whole way you see something.
You know, if you feel like the negative and positive balance out with your father, then I think they do. Nevermind that you could list a longer, maybe seemingly more profound list of positives. Those types of things aren't always so tangible that you can capture them in conscious lists like that.
As far as dealing with the ambivalence, I dunno. I wish I did. I'm in a similar place with some family members, and I seem to handle it by swinging back and forth in my relationships with them. Which I don't particularly recommend.
p
Posted by Estella on August 18, 2006, at 14:54:23
In reply to Confused and update on hypnotist, posted by antigua on August 18, 2006, at 9:34:47
do you mean that if you have a dream about x then that doesn't mean that x is or is not real, but it means that you need to deal with... the fact that x has occurred to you?
likewise if you 'remember' x under hypnosis then that doesn't mean that x is or is not real, but it means that you need to deal with... the fact that x has occurred to you?
what do you get from hypnosis that you can't get from... trying to imagine your worst fears (or the like)?
i don't understand...
Posted by finelinebob on August 18, 2006, at 18:47:07
In reply to Re: Confused and update on hypnotist, posted by Estella on August 18, 2006, at 14:54:23
Well, with your dreams or your imagination, you're more than likely alone for one.
Working with a hypnotherapist, there is somebody there with you.
I'm someone who is very susceptible to hypnosis and a lucid dreamer as well. I only saw the hypnotherapist maybe 4 times and I really don't recall what we "did", but part of the reason for going was for anxiety management and she taught me some self-hypnosis techniques that were really, really effective.
But I wonder how much how much HT would be like bringing someone along for the ride on a lucid dream. I had a funny one the other day -- put me back in my teens living with my family, and my parents decided to buy a full size elementary school building for a house. Don't ask me why, I was laughing too hard to think about it. All I really remember was being assigned one room for my bedroom and deciding I didn't want that room, so I decided to wander around the school and look for a cooler room than the empty one I was assigned.
Ooh! Lots of lovely imagery in there, especially since my dad was an elementary school principal. It would have been interesting to have someone along ask "Why do you think you got stuck with an empty room?" ... I was having too much fun warping the "reality" of the dream to be concerned with what it actually might mean.
I can't say that doing psych therapy with an HT would be anything at all like that. But THAT would be pretty cool....
oh, for ll:
> Lots of research shows that our memory is prone to filling in 'gaps' with plausible stories.el-oh-el!! And I bet most of that was based on online-dating experiences!!
Posted by llrrrpp on August 18, 2006, at 20:22:59
In reply to Re: Confused and update on hypnotist, posted by finelinebob on August 18, 2006, at 18:47:07
> oh, for ll:
> > Lots of research shows that our memory is prone to filling in 'gaps' with plausible stories.
>
> el-oh-el!! And I bet most of that was based on online-dating experiences!!hmm. Are you suggesting that research psychologists are recruiting subjects from online dating sites? Or are you suggesting that their research was inspired by their lack of success in the dating pool? *grin*
Actually, this research is widely used in forensic psychology, to explain the fallibility of eyewitness memory, and to help understand what conditions promote false memories, in courtroom settings in particular.
Posted by finelinebob on August 18, 2006, at 21:52:36
In reply to Re: Confused and update on hypnotist » finelinebob, posted by llrrrpp on August 18, 2006, at 20:22:59
> > oh, for ll:
> > > Lots of research shows that our memory is prone to filling in 'gaps' with plausible stories.
> >
> > el-oh-el!! And I bet most of that was based on online-dating experiences!!
>
> hmm. Are you suggesting that research psychologists are recruiting subjects from online dating sites? Or are you suggesting that their research was inspired by their lack of success in the dating pool? *grin*Actually, I'd be suggesting that a (former) research psychologist (who I'd like to think I know well) has, based upon his own empirical evidence and on the anecdotal evidence of many compatriots, come to the conclusion that if you don't meet an online "date" in person after no more than three online exchanges, both participants will discover that the person they met online is not at all the person they met in person.
Posted by Daisym on August 19, 2006, at 0:55:35
In reply to Confused and update on hypnotist, posted by antigua on August 18, 2006, at 9:34:47
>>>>>But I get stuck doing that with my father. The list of positive things is far outweighed by the negative, life-changing things, but the ambivalence balances out--I see them as equal.
>>>>>>What should I do? How do I deal with this ambivalence? Any ideas?
Antigua,
I think feeling ambivalence is part of the human-condition. It is healthy and adaptive to see more than one side of things and to be able to react differently in different situations. But I think ambivalence towards our parents comes from a primal, almost survival place. Think about it -- if our parents didn't care for us when we were young, we would die. And kids need to believe that their parents love them and are good people. Even if their reality is different, they need their parents to be good. I think this is why we get embarrassed for and about our parents, even in grade school.
I can't tell you how many times I've cried, "But I love my dad" and I hate him too. I'm slowly learning (very, very slowly) that I can hold more than one feeling or emotion at the same time. So I don't have to choose between loving the good parts of him OR hating the bad parts...I can do both. I still don't know how to feel about the whole package, but I'm choosing not to have to do that right now. I spend a lot of time fighting against the feeling that says I "should" hate him completely, but I don't. And I fight the feeling that says, I "should" love him because he is my dad. I'm not sure he gets it unequivocally like that. So when your pdoc says your problem is that you feel ambivalent about your dad, I guess I'd like to argue that a more accurate word would be conflicted -- at least that is how I see it.
I'm glad you like the Hypnotherapist. I hope it helps.
Hugs, Daisy
Posted by antigua on August 19, 2006, at 11:07:47
In reply to Re: Confused and update on hypnotist, posted by Estella on August 18, 2006, at 14:54:23
I can only use one of my own dreams as an example.
I dreamt that my pdoc put me in the hospital involuntarily and there were whisperings among the staff that he was doing some unethical things w/my treatment--he even gave me some vodka (I don't drink anymore and it has been a big problem for me).
Somehow or other I escape and head for my T. I need her to help me understand what happened in the hospital as I have some amnesia about it, and I'm worried that I might have done something bad (like waking up after the morning of heavy drinking and discovering I've done some really stupid things).
I go to my Ts house but since I just showed up, etc., she is busy with all the activity at her own house. She talks to me every now and then, but obviously she is busy dealing with her own daughter and friends.
At this point, I discover that yes, I have done something terribly wrong during my amnesia and I'm just so overwhelmed with disgust and hate for myself (how could I have done this again, I hate myself for drinking, etc., etc.)
So here's the interpretation I worked out w/my T. The pdoc is my new pdoc and my father combined, doing bad things to me (my father gave me alcohol when I was a child). It's all very secretive.
I go to my T, who stands for my mother and she is too busy to help me, much like my own mother was too busy with the other children or preoccupied. My mother was no help, so, I turned all the feelings inward to being my fault (remembering the amnesia).
To me that said when I had no one to turn to or help me, I turned on myself. That was a powerful revelation to me--
Is that any help?
antigua
Posted by Estella on August 19, 2006, at 22:13:27
In reply to Re: Confused and update on hypnotist » Estella, posted by antigua on August 19, 2006, at 11:07:47
Hey. I'm sorry if I've been unsupportive of your decision. Really. I guess I'll admit that I feel concerned for you. But really I'm sure we get enough of people questioning us and our decisions IRL and there is no need for that here. I'm sorry if I've said anything out of line.
Your dream is interesting...
What struck me most about it was that you wanted your t to help you understand some things that you have amnesia for. You were worried you might have done something bad... And you want your t to help you remember.
> At this point, I discover that yes, I have done something terribly wrong during my amnesia
How did you discover this? Did you 'remember'?
And the upshot is:
> I'm just so overwhelmed with disgust and hate for myself
So you don't remember some stuff but you suspect stuff happened (and that is why you don't remember). You are worried that you might 'remember' stuff that somehow shows you to be to blame or you to be at fault. But the way the theory goes it is more likely that someone has done some stuff to you. And that if you can 'remember' someone doing stuff to you then you will come to see that you aren't to blame and then you will be cured.
I still worry that... Memory doesn't really work that way.
I worry that you think your therapist can help you 'remember'. I worry about this theory that seems to construe memory as locating bits of veridical information that have been stashed away somewhere in the brain.
Most people don't remember everything...
But some people worry more about the memory gaps while others aren't really aware that they have memory gaps.
I guess in a way I think the real question is...
Do you think your t can help you remember?
Do you think that what you remember will be veridical?
Is there any way you could find out whether it is veridical or not?
Why do you think it is so important to remember?I guess in a way I think the real issue is in that latter bit.
Why do you think it is so important?
What are you afraid of?Maybe... You could deal with those issues without engaging in a process that is notorious for the development of false memories.
But that being said...
I'm sorry if I've been unsupportive. Really. I'm concerned... But after a time... People need to do what people need to do... And if you really feel like you need to do this then it is your decision and I'm sure you don't need people being unsupportive. I'm sorry.
Posted by Daisym on August 20, 2006, at 0:54:40
In reply to Re: Confused and update on hypnotist, posted by Estella on August 19, 2006, at 22:13:27
I probably shouldn't speak for Antigua but I think her main point keeps getting lost in the discussion.
She isn't saying she doesn't remember being sexually abused. She is clear that she was and it was her dad who abused her. She is also clear that she loved her father and that there are conflicting feelings within her. What she has said over and over is that she has a "tip of her tongue" feeling that is driving her crazy and she would like to access whatever it is that pricks at her just below the surface. It might be an event with her dad she forgot...it might be something else. But she wants to get a clearer picture of her past.
I don't know why but there is a need to process traumatic events IN DETAIL, over and over again, by most human beings. Good trauma and bad trauma. I think anyone who has ever been in a room full of women with children has noticed that eventually, somehow, women begin to tell each other their birth stories -- in detail. This is a huge traumatic event, loaded with emotion, which blurs the details somehow. But there is this innate need to recapture those details, to understand intellectually what our body remembers.
I've been studying neurobiology this year and there are PET scans that show that traumatic memory is NOT stored the way other memories are stored. And what we know is changing at a fast and furious rate. So what we think today will be different tomorrow.
All that said, I completely understand the need to understand your own history and figure out how to have a coherent narrative of what happened to you. The "truth" here isn't for a court case or a confrontation (since he's dead). It is for her inner peace.
Posted by zenhussy on August 20, 2006, at 0:58:27
In reply to Re: Confused and update on hypnotist » Estella, posted by Daisym on August 20, 2006, at 0:54:40
Posted by Estella on August 20, 2006, at 1:19:40
In reply to Re: Confused and update on hypnotist » Estella, posted by Daisym on August 20, 2006, at 0:54:40
> I think her main point keeps getting lost in the discussion.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to do that...
> She isn't saying she doesn't remember being sexually abused.I know.
> She is clear that she was and it was her dad who abused her.
Yup.
> She is also clear that she loved her father and that there are conflicting feelings within her.
Yeah. That is understandable.
> What she has said over and over is that she has a "tip of her tongue" feeling that is driving her crazy and she would like to access whatever it is that pricks at her just below the surface.
Right. That is what I thought.
> It might be an event with her dad she forgot...it might be something else. But she wants to get a clearer picture of her past.
Right. And what I'm questioning is the ability of hypnosis to facilitate those kinds of 'memories'.
> I've been studying neurobiology this year and there are PET scans that show that traumatic memory is NOT stored the way other memories are stored.Right. How are they 'stored' differently?
> All that said, I completely understand the need to understand your own history and figure out how to have a coherent narrative of what happened to you. The "truth" here isn't for a court case or a confrontation (since he's dead). It is for her inner peace.
There aren't alternative ways of finding coherent narrative and inner peace?
I don't understand how the question becomes
'what happened?'
over
'what am i afraid of?'
Posted by Daisym on August 20, 2006, at 14:44:54
In reply to Re: Confused and update on hypnotist » Daisym, posted by Estella on August 20, 2006, at 1:19:40
I don't understand how the question becomes
'what happened?'
over
'what am i afraid of?'Speaking for myself, I think not knowing "what happened" is scary as hell. It leaves open the possibility that I did something that brought all this on myself. It leaves open the possibility that my mother saw and knew. It leaves open a million scenarios in my imagination. It leaves open the possibility that I liked it...
Human beings abhore voids and so we tend to fill in gaps with plausible explanations. I know this is what you are concerned about with the hypnosis. You'd think we'd be afraid of the details, wouldn't you?
I'm not sure why it needs to be one or the other question. I have a list at least as long under the "what are you afraid?" question. Top of the list -- I'm afraid I'm "bad" or evil at my core and soon it will become impossible to hide this. Intellectually I can say, "probably not true." But that frozen age state that holds the terror and pain and feels it all still so acutely, has a hard time believing she isn't.
complicated, isn't it?
Posted by antigua on August 21, 2006, at 9:22:00
In reply to Re: Confused and update on hypnotist, posted by Estella on August 19, 2006, at 22:13:27
> Hey. I'm sorry if I've been unsupportive of your decision.
I didn't think you were being unsupportive. I thought you were truly interested!
> Your dream is interesting...
>
> What struck me most about it was that you wanted your t to help you understand some things that you have amnesia for. You were worried you might have done something bad... And you want your t to help you remember.
>
> > At this point, I discover that yes, I have done something terribly wrong during my amnesia
>
> How did you discover this? Did you 'remember'?No, I just felt it in my dream. The idea was that the person I turned to for help was unavailable, so I turned the bad stuff on myself. I know as a mother that if my child came to me with something where their perception was wrong, I would change it, make him or her see more clearly. since I had no one to do that, I internalized it instead. It was just a remembrance in a dream.
>
> And the upshot is:
>
> > I'm just so overwhelmed with disgust and hate for myself
>
> So you don't remember some stuff but you suspect stuff happened (and that is why you don't remember). You are worried that you might 'remember' stuff that somehow shows you to be to blame or you to be at fault. But the way the theory goes it is more likely that someone has done some stuff to you. And that if you can 'remember' someone doing stuff to you then you will come to see that you aren't to blame and then you will be cured.
>
> I still worry that... Memory doesn't really work that way.
It's not necessarily memory. Intellectually, I know that I'm not at fault, but emotionally I am still carrying a burden.> I worry that you think your therapist can help you 'remember'. I worry about this theory that seems to construe memory as locating bits of veridical information that have been stashed away somewhere in the brain.
>
> Most people don't remember everything...
>
> But some people worry more about the memory gaps while others aren't really aware that they have memory gaps.
>
> I guess in a way I think the real question is...
>
> Do you think your t can help you remember?
> Do you think that what you remember will be veridical?
> Is there any way you could find out whether it is veridical or not?What does veridical mean? Sorry, I'm an oaf (even a writer!)
> Why do you think it is so important to remember?
Because something is blocking me from getting fully better.
>
> What are you afraid of?
That's the million dollar question. I don't know.
> Maybe... You could deal with those issues without engaging in a process that is notorious for the development of false memories.I'm not looking at them as memories, per se, but to provide something to provide insight. What you suggest above, that's what I've been doing for 16 years.
antigua
Posted by antigua on August 21, 2006, at 11:46:33
In reply to Re: Confused and update on hypnotist, posted by antigua on August 21, 2006, at 9:22:00
When I re-read what I write here sometimes I sound so in control, knowing exactly what it is that I have to say and being pretty sure of myself.
Well, I'm not that way at all. It's just years of practice as a writer.
The honest truth is that I don't really know what the heck I'm doing and I'm scared to death. I appreciate everyone's comments and I'm very aware that any memory that comes up might be false, and then I'm going to have to deal with that. My next appt is tomorrow afternoon and I expect it to be difficult.
I have so much going on right now and I'm scared:
1. My T has been off for a couple of weeks now,but she has been available by phone. After Wed. she won't be quite as available for a few weeks.
2. I'm afraid that I'm becoming attached to my pdoc (he is awfully cute! but young, sigh.) I don't do well with male authority figures and I'm afraid of a repeat of what always happens--abandonment and rejection. He's also very different from my T--much stricter and harder than me. (Anyone recognize the two parents I've adopted?)He really made a wall crumble last week,though, which made the memories not as important, but Iknow that's only for now.
3. My son is leaving for college on Saturday. I think I'm ready for it, but I know it's sure to trigger abandoment issues for me (of which I have many).
4. I've quit eating. It's the only place I have control. I could stand to lose some weight, so this isn't a problem now, but I know what it can lead to. I am eating one tiny meal a day and taking my vitamins. Getting thin brings me closer to the sexual feelings I have about my father so it's a double-edge sword.
Well, that's my honesty. I probably shouldn't be doing what I'm doing right now, but I feel compelled.
Thanks for reading,
antigua
Posted by littleone on August 21, 2006, at 21:46:43
In reply to Honesty **poss trigger**, posted by antigua on August 21, 2006, at 11:46:33
I'm glad you were able to be open and honest here with how you are coping with everything. I bet it took quite a bit of courage to be able to do that. I think it helps other people to help you when they know exactly how you are feeling. (Although I don't really believe that when it comes to me).
> The honest truth is that I don't really know what the heck I'm doing and I'm scared to death.
When I'm torn over a decision, my T tries to get across to me that the decision is not the be all and end all. That in the worst possible scenario, all it means is that you may have to make another decision a bit later on. eg say you decided to do this hypnosis and it went really badly for you, it just means that you have to decide how to handle the fallout from that and decide whether to keep proceeding with it.
It's not like you're locked in to doing the hypnosis forever. And if anything bad came up, it wouldn't affect you badly forever. It would just mean that you and your T would have to decide how to treat and incorporate anything that came up.
I'm certainly not trying to minimise your experience here. I just know that I tend to agonise over a lot of decisions and it helps me to know it's not set in concrete.
Also remember that whatever you decide will be right. You have all the info you can get on it now and you'll make a choice based on that. And if further info (or experiences) comes up down the track you may want to re-evaluate your decision. But it doesn't make your original decision wrong. Your original decision is right based on the info at hand at the time.
Not sure if any of that helps you.
> I have so much going on right now and I'm scared:
I can understand why you'd be scared. The stuff about your T and your son are both threatening situations. Your eating habits are a worrying trend and your pdoc thing is a scary pattern from the past.
I think you're right to be worried about these things. And I think it's good that you can see that these things are a threat to you.
I guess you just need to be extra aware of things that come up in relation to these situations and tackle them as they come up. Take good care of yourself so you have internal strength for the challenges coming up. If your T isn't available when you're having trouble, make sure you babble.
I guess a big thing with the pdoc is not to act on impulse. If you feel an impulse try to take note of it and take it away to think about rather than acting on it straight away.
If you need camp comfort while your T is away, make sure you ask. I'll be all to happy to join you there if you like.
Posted by pegasus on August 22, 2006, at 9:13:15
In reply to Honesty **poss trigger**, posted by antigua on August 21, 2006, at 11:46:33
Hi antigua,
I know how that feeling of being compelled can come on and be irresistible. I think it does sound, though, like you aren't making a mistake with this -- at least not necessarily. You seem to have some intuition or curiosity about hypnosis, and I think it's ok to follow that.
What I'm most worried about on your behalf is that you're doing this while your T is not available. You sound really stressed out. Not eating is not a good sign. Getting into the memories via hypnosis sounds like somethign that's going to exacerbate that, and it worries me.
Is there any way you can postpone further hypnosis until you have your support systems available? Or, can you at least set up a plan for maximizing the support that you do have access to right now? Maybe see your pdoc more? Or tell some friends about what you're doing, and ask for their help dealing? Or maybe post here a lot?
I'll be following what happens, and wishing you lots of success.
peg
Posted by Dinah on August 22, 2006, at 9:54:43
In reply to Re: Honesty **poss trigger**, posted by pegasus on August 22, 2006, at 9:13:15
I think I agree with Pegasis about your therapist. My EMDR therapist wouldn't even consider doing EMDR with me unless my regular therapist was readily available.
That's quite a long time for your therapist to be away. Are you doing ok? Is there any way we can help?
Posted by antigua on August 22, 2006, at 11:10:14
In reply to Re: Honesty **poss trigger**, posted by Dinah on August 22, 2006, at 9:54:43
I should be posting more with my T away (well, she doesn't actually leave town until tomorrow). She used to take the whole month of August plus through Labor Day off, so I guess I'm kind of lucky this year she didn't.
She called me yesterday to tell me she had spoken with the hypnotist. I had to laugh--he told her how pleased he was with how together I am! I put on a good front. They talked about what he was going to do today, and so I guess we'll see what happens.... I'm not counting on much today.
I feel like that little girl, stomping her foot, and saying, "I want to do it now!" I know I'm doing this deliberately while she's not fully available and I guess I should explore that with her. I'll admit that she wanted me to wait, but understood my urgency. That's just like me, I have to do things my own way.
I'll post later. I guess what probably will happen is that I will melt down over the weekend, after my son leaves, but I do have a pdoc appt on Monday.
thanks again,
antigua
Posted by Estella on August 22, 2006, at 22:23:27
In reply to Re: Confused and update on hypnotist, posted by antigua on August 21, 2006, at 9:22:00
Hey. Sorry I haven't written before. I've been sick and mostly sleeping over the last few days.
My concern is that hypnosis is notorious for developing false (non-veridical) memories. Like when you have a dream you can't rely on dreams to be true (veridical) representations of the past dreams and 'memories' recalled under hypnosis don't really work that way.
And so I wonder... What good can come of hypnosis? Say you have a 'memory' arise with hypnosis. How do you know whether it is a true (veridical) memory or a false (non-veridical memory. Upshot is that you don't. You never will know without independent evidence. Maybe you will get a sense of certainty of conviction associated with the 'memory' that will clue you in that the memory is true (veridical). Unfortunately, studies show that that sense of certainty / conviction that 'memory' is true / accurate isn't a good indicator of a 'memories' being true / accurate when hypnosis has facilitated the memory.
So that being said...
If you are searching for some meaning... Some narrative etc. You are probably better off with tea leaf reading or astronomy. There really isn't any truth in either of those either but they tend to result in less harm.
All I can see happening with the hypnosis thing is that things will occur to you. Probably horrible things. Probably something along the lines of your worst fears. Why? Because it has been built up to be as much by you and by the hypnotherapist. But whatever occurs to you under hypnosis, whatever sense of conviction or certainty (though some people always do have chronic doubts)... You will never know whether it is veridical (true) or not. In fact... Studies show more likely to be false than true.
So...
Why?
I still don't understand.
I mean, sure you can wait for the fears to occur to you in 'memory' form. But why do that when you can just talk through some of your fears. Sad fact is that people can't remember everything in the past. What age memories are you talking about? We don't really have verbal memories before we learn to talk (ie develop the cognitive capacity for thought / language)
Posted by antigua on August 22, 2006, at 23:13:21
In reply to Re: Confused and update on hypnotist » antigua, posted by Estella on August 22, 2006, at 22:23:27
> My concern is that hypnosis is notorious for developing false (non-veridical) memories. Like when you have a dream you can't rely on dreams to be true (veridical) representations of the past dreams and 'memories' recalled under hypnosis don't really work that way.
,,Dreams don't have to be true to be insightful
>
> And so I wonder... What good can come of hypnosis? Say you have a 'memory' arise with hypnosis. How do you know whether it is a true (veridical) memory or a false (non-veridical memory. Upshot is that you don't. You never will know without independent evidence. Maybe you will get a sense of certainty of conviction associated with the 'memory' that will clue you in that the memory is true (veridical). Unfortunately, studies show that that sense of certainty / conviction that 'memory' is true / accurate isn't a good indicator of a 'memories' being true / accurate when hypnosis has facilitated the memory.
>,,I'm sure you correct about this. I don't know how I would deal with this, but being aware of it is the first step
> So that being said...
>
> If you are searching for some meaning... Some narrative etc. You are probably better off with tea leaf reading or astronomy. There really isn't any truth in either of those either but they tend to result in less harm.,,was that really necessary? What you think I'm looking for and what I think I'm looking for are not the same thing at all
>
> All I can see happening with the hypnosis thing is that things will occur to you. Probably horrible things. Probably something along the lines of your worst fears. Why? Because it has been built up to be as much by you and by the hypnotherapist. But whatever occurs to you under hypnosis, whatever sense of conviction or certainty (though some people always do have chronic doubts)... You will never know whether it is veridical (true) or not. In fact... Studies show more likely to be false than true.,,you assume that this would bother me?
>
> So...
>
> Why?
>
> I still don't understand.
>
>
> I mean, sure you can wait for the fears to occur to you in 'memory' form. But why do that when you can just talk through some of your fears.,,I've talked myself to death, but I will keep talking; I'm looking for other avenues to explore, maybe outside of their regular use
Sad fact is that people can't remember everything in the past. What age memories are you talking about? We don't really have verbal memories before we learn to talk (ie develop the cognitive capacity for thought / language)
,,of course this is true. the preverbal memories are the hardest to express because they can only be expressed in primal form. And how do we communicate that? We may not always have verbal memories (at any age), but we can also have body memories that can be explored, for example.
Your underlying assumption that the memory has to be true is what I'm grappling with. Like I said, dreams are not true, but they can provide incredible insight into our problems, or lead to better understanding of events.
antigua
Posted by ClearSkies on August 23, 2006, at 8:54:42
In reply to Re: Confused and update on hypnotist, posted by antigua on August 22, 2006, at 23:13:21
> Your underlying assumption that the memory has to be true is what I'm grappling with. Like I said, dreams are not true, but they can provide incredible insight into our problems, or lead to better understanding of events.
>
> antiguaI'm opening my mouth in order to stick my foot in it. Aren't memories subjective anyway? What we perceive may not necessarily be the exact sequence of events - doesn't that often come to light during some court cases?
For me, the value of the memories, or dreams, or vague feelings, is in helping to explore present complaints. A hypnotist with sensitivity will be able to recognize when you are in danger of re-traumatizing yourself by recalling those memories, and pull you back from that precipice.
My experience with hypnotherapy was a long time ago (I was 12), and the purpose of the therapy was to explore the length of the history I have with migraine headaches; and also to determine whether there was a psychological cause to the attacks. It brought to light that there *is* a large trigger for migraines that I experience when I have severe stress. Taken into consideration with the known physical triggers - some foods, weather changes, hormonal spikes, it has explained a lot about how incapacitated I become at the worst possible times. Like I said, hypnotherapy was of true and lasting value for me.
CS
Posted by daisym on August 23, 2006, at 11:59:17
In reply to Re: Confused and update on hypnotist » antigua, posted by Estella on August 22, 2006, at 22:23:27
*****If you are searching for some meaning... Some narrative etc. You are probably better off with tea leaf reading or astronomy. There really isn't any truth in either of those either but they tend to result in less harm.****
I agree with Antigua - was this really necessary to put it? It takes the discussion from being thoughtful to a place of ridicule, at least that is how it felt to me. I'm struck again how this topic is so powerful that we can't seem to say to each other, "choose what is right for you and I'll choose what is right for me." We have such a need to "save" each other.
Which isn't to say that this is a bad thing...
Posted by Estella on August 23, 2006, at 16:44:20
In reply to Re: Confused and update on hypnotist » Estella, posted by daisym on August 23, 2006, at 11:59:17
I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to poke fun with the tea leaf stuff. Really.
The idea was from Dennett. He considers predictions / Explanations from 4 different levels.
- Physical Stance (Level of physics)
- Design Stance (Level of Function / Design)
- Intentional Stance (Level of Folk Psychology)
- Astrological Stance (Where he considers Astrology and Tea Leaf reading).Once again... I'm sorry if I 'caused offence, I really did not mean to.
Since 'feelings are flying' etc etc... I'm bowing out of the conversation now. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to hurt / upset anyone.
Posted by Estella on August 23, 2006, at 16:46:13
In reply to Re: Confused and update on hypnotist, posted by Estella on August 23, 2006, at 16:44:20
Reference, Sorry:
Posted by Estella on August 23, 2006, at 21:39:14
In reply to Re: Confused and update on hypnotist » Estella, posted by daisym on August 23, 2006, at 11:59:17
sorry...
i just meant to say that i wasn't trying to ridicule tea leaf reading and the like.
they are means by which... people narrate and make sense of their lives. i'm serious.
i had a couple friends back home who took runestones fairly seriously. these little stones with markings on them. you draw however many out of a bag and you consult the little book and you get a bit of narrative.
and from the narrative in the book you plug in details from your life, you plug in what particular concerns etc you have. or you ask yourself a question before you choose the runes.
i always said to them... that i didn't believe in that stuff.
and what one of my friends said to me one day...
it is about facilitating what you knew already. the little blurb in the book is long enough for you to... take what seems to fit and to discard the rest.
i thought... it sounded similar to hypnosis.
i'm sorry if the analogy isn't fitting.
but either way i assure people i didn't mean to ridicule.
This is the end of the thread.
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