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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 38. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 13:30:38
I need to ask about something. Something I never really ever talked about. Since this board allows a certain amount of anonymity I am going to try to post it here. I hope its ok to write it here. I have processed a lot of CSA issues with my T. In fact I have never felt better about it. But there is one part of it that bothers me so badly I think it physically hurts and I don’t know if I should talk to her about it. I am so embarrassed. I don’t even know what to say to her. The closest I got was one time telling my T that I thought the guy doing this to me has been sexually abused himself, and by another man. She asked why and I said because of the things he did to me. To which she kinda got a look on her face like she understood what I was saying and said, ‘so he abused you in a homosexual way?’ I said yes, as my mind drifted so far away from my body I don’t know what happened next. I know she said something like ‘that must have been very painful for a little girl.’ I think I said I didn’t remember what it felt like. I remained in a sort of dissociated state for the rest of that session and we just talked about ‘easy things.’ To say it honestly, I will use the word sodomize I guess. That is what he did. With him self, with objects, I don’t want to think about it anymore. I can’t imagine telling her about this. Should a person even share such details? I just know that every time I told her the details of an incident that happened, it became less powerful over me. I felt stronger. I can’t imagine the conversation and although I do write to her a lot I cant imagine reading to her either. I would need her to help me through it I think. I don’t know if I can/should do it. I need to put this to rest, finally. I guess I can post this. Thanks in advance to anyone who has advice. I really appreciate it. I am feeling quite humbled having written this.
Posted by annierose on May 11, 2006, at 14:20:22
In reply to conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger***, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 13:30:38
I think you answered your own question.
>>> I just know that every time I told her the details of an incident that happened, it became less powerful over me. I felt stronger. <<<
I can only offer what I think might help you, not knowing you. But in general, sharing that painful experience(s) with your T should help you process what happened to you. She will not judge you. It wasn't your fault. You were only a child. I think I would share that with my T. I know with her help, it would have less power over me, or so I would hope.
Posted by Anneke on May 11, 2006, at 15:23:55
In reply to conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger***, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 13:30:38
I would really encourage you to share it with her...I know it would be hard, but I agree with annierose that you've answered your own question. Yes, it will be hard, but if you can imagine the relief it would bring, try to use that strength to help you.
Would it help to start simply by saying that there's something that is so hard to talk about that it physically hurts to even think about it. I will often preface "big stuff" with words like that...saying that it's really hard to talk about, or embarrassing, or whatever.
One of the things my T says that really helps me is that talking about these horrible things takes away their power and allows us to not carry them around with us anymore and that's important, because they should never have been ours to carry in the first place. You were a child...it wasn't your fault...and you shouldn't have to carry it around anymore...give it over to your therapist to carry instead.
Posted by antigua on May 11, 2006, at 15:50:48
In reply to conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger***, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 13:30:38
Aw, bent, I feel for you and I'm sorry you're going through this. I did too. It helped me to tell, but I kind of tell in a cognitive, never an emotional way. It keeps me out of it until I'm ready to deal with the emotions. I wouldn't suggest it, because it's really best to connect with the emotions. You've been through some very tough things that no child should have to deal with--and there are several of us here who more than understand--so try to be nice to yourself.
the shame and the guilt still haunt me, but I'm working on it. But knowing that my T knows helps--and she's never been judgmental.
take care,
antigua
Posted by B2chica on May 11, 2006, at 15:54:38
In reply to conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger***, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 13:30:38
(((bent)))
it sounds like you've gotten pretty close already. i do agree with the others. i think you answered your own question. that youwill feel stronger and less bound by your memories if you are able to tell her. i think you are off to a good start. sometimes talking to my T in little segments helped me. sometimes it helped to see him an extra day also when i knew i would talk about something hard.i think you are Incredibly strong and are able to do what you need to inorder to heal.
you will.also, i think you did an excellent job of telling us exactly what is going on, in your post. maybe it might be easier if you write some things out and bring it in to her, would it help if she read it rather than you telling her? at least at first?
cares
b2c.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 11, 2006, at 16:14:02
In reply to conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger***, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 13:30:38
Maybe you can see what you're doing here as practising. Getting ready. I pray for your strength, that you may follow through.
This process, the revealing of secrets, is very cathartic, in my experience. The lifting of a weight.
In my own self-talk, I've created a transitive verb to describe this act. I call it cockroaching. (Ya, I know. Only a guy would call it that.)
Just like secrets, cockroaches do not like the light of day. They have no power, in the light. They are dissipated. And in the light, they can be seen very clearly, for what they are. The truth is revealed, in the light.
You're preparing to do a good thing. A good thing for you. That's my 2 cents.
Lar
Posted by milly on May 11, 2006, at 16:30:57
In reply to conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger***, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 13:30:38
((((((((bent)))))))))
not easy but i think you know that once done it will help you, i love larrys light v dark thing, it will be far less powerful once out of the shadows
milly
Posted by madeline on May 11, 2006, at 17:12:32
In reply to conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger***, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 13:30:38
Oh bent, I'm so grateful that you shared that with us. It must have been so horrible for you to carry that with you all these years.
I think a lot of us have been layed low by some of the things that have been done to us, but, as you so rightly said, the more you talk about them the less power they have.
I hope that you will trust your therapist as much as you have trusted us. I think both situations are quite safe.
I think it is a great idea to schedule extra session. You might want to call in advance and request an extra or two so that you can feel very close to your support during this time.
I firmly think that you should not feel humbled by telling us this because I am very proud of you.
Keep us posted.
Maddie
Posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 17:37:50
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger***, posted by annierose on May 11, 2006, at 14:20:22
you are right...she wont judge me. i know this by now. she very empathic when it comes to this stuff. and its always hard and we dont talk about it every week. there is no 'right time' to tell such things. thanks.
Posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 17:40:48
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » bent, posted by Anneke on May 11, 2006, at 15:23:55
yes, it does take away the power. my T says that all secrets have some level of power over us and a secret can only control while it's a secret. in talking to her about 'big things' before, I have felt so much weight lifted from me - like you said, handing it over to her.
Posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 17:44:31
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger***, posted by antigua on May 11, 2006, at 15:50:48
I work a lot on the shame and guilt. This part of it really tips the shame scale for me. I guess thats why its so hard. I am sorry that you know how this feels, but i am glad I dont have to feel so alone.
Posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 17:50:37
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger***, posted by B2chica on May 11, 2006, at 15:54:38
thanks b2c. I think I did come pretty close to actually telling her. From what she said I think she knows what I am talking about. We just didnt talk further, like about the feelings it brings up. Thats half my problem tho, when those feelings arise I dissociate. My T says its hard for her to tell when my mind sorta leaves the room but i have never been able to tell her either. I dont know how to stay present. I dont know if she can help with that or not. I guess I am gonna have to stay present and feel through these feelings if I am going to get past them. thanks for your support.
Posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 17:53:15
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » bent, posted by Larry Hoover on May 11, 2006, at 16:14:02
your post really gave me a different perspective...maybe i am kind of practicing here. And the cockroach analogy said it all.
No power in the light.
Thank you.
Posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 17:54:18
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » bent, posted by milly on May 11, 2006, at 16:30:57
thanks milly. you have all been so helpful.
Posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 17:58:33
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » bent, posted by madeline on May 11, 2006, at 17:12:32
It felt good to read your post. You really helped me feel its ok to talk about this. It was my secret for 18 years. I trust my T. She may be the most trustworthy person in my life right now. Thank you for your support.
Posted by daisym on May 11, 2006, at 19:04:26
In reply to conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger***, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 13:30:38
((((Bent))))
I'm sorry this happened to you. How old were you, if you are willing to share?
I think as we trust ourselves to handle more, more of this stuff wants to come out. I often think that I trust my therapist, I just don't trust myself. Because if he hears it, and holds it, it makes it true. At least for me, I keep going back to the question, "How could this have happened? How can this be real?" Especially the dark, dark, ugly stuff.
I also struggle with the question, "how much detail do I say? What crosses the line for my therapist? Will he hurt like I hurt?" I really don't want to hurt him, or make him worried or sad, or especially, disgusted, like you said. He always tells me that he wants to know, needs to hear the details so he can be there with me and it isn't too much, unless it is too much for me. He is righteous in his anger and his sadness for me, and tells me all the time that what happened deserves his sadness and anger.
I've found that processing certain things happens over several sessions. I think you've already put it out there -- now you need to pick up the ball again. There are no pretty euphemisms for forced anal sex, (which is still rape by the way)-- nor should there be. I think you can say, "I've been thinking about something we half talked about a while ago, but I'm haunted by it and need to talk about it some more." And tell her how ashamed you feel. You aren't alone about that. The shame you feel I know so well. This act forced on another is humiliating and violent and intentional. There is no way to cloud your thinking with "they lost control" or "my body responded so they thought I wanted it." Trust me, I've tried all those excuses and they don't fly around this. Which makes the telling twice as scary because then, at least for me, I have to admit I had no control and that it was abuse. Not too much love, not misguided passion, not an accident. And that about killed me.
I think I'm in the minority that doesn't find the telling all that cathartic. I usually feel physically sick and I'm terrified for days that I'm going to get into trouble for telling. I need a lot of reassurance that my therapist not only believes me, but isn't planning to terminate me because he can't handle the stories. And mostly, I need to hear over and over and over again that it wasn't my fault.
So I'll say to you: It wasn't your fault. You didn't deserve it and you didn't bring it on yourself. Keep yourself surrounded by support and be gentle with your own expectations as you explore this. I've learned to say, "I'm dizzy" or "I'm leaving" and my therapist works with me to bring me back. Usually he will ask, "where are you going -- can you try to come back?" If I say no, I'm up on the ceiling or out the window in the tree, he'll ask if he can join me. And then we will talk about what I see from "up here" and talk about why I needed to move away from the painful material. It is tricky if you don't give off signals or know you are going.
If nothing else, please know that as you try to make sense out of these memories and your need to tell someone and talk about them, we are there with you, holding your hand and lending you strength.
Hugs,
Daisy
Posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 20:05:14
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » bent, posted by daisym on May 11, 2006, at 19:04:26
Thanks for taking the time to write such a helpful post. It helps to feel others have been where I am. I know what you mean about how more comes out as we trust ourselves with it. This was something I always told myself I'd never ever talk about. But I think several years ago the timing was just right in my life to explore this, and I had a wonderful therapist who has stuck with me since then. This type of abuse occured randomly from age 9 to 12. It was a lot to try to hide in my mind. I did the right thing telling my T. I tend to feel sick too when I talk about this stuff with her. And then I spend some time driving myself crazy because suddenly its all real. But in all that I can usually feel some relief also.
I agree somethings need to be spread out over several sessions. I can only do so much at once. I like what your T does to help keep you there. I will have to explore this with my T. I am thinking about calling her tonight. I have a lot on my mind this week. Its been rough. Maybe leave a message. I just need to feel that connection to her right now (there is another thread above about wanting to call her). Thanks Daisy. Youve helped a lot.
Posted by Emily Elizabeth on May 11, 2006, at 23:46:29
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » daisym, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 20:05:14
I think that this is a situation where you can take in everyone's advice, but then you have to listen to your own heart. If deep down you don't feel ready to disclose more abt this to your T, then you need to take that seriously. Maybe now is not the time.
I was, however, wondering if sharing here on babble has provided any relief for you. Finding out that we feel such compassion for your pain rather than disgust toward you.
Best,
EE
Posted by bent on May 12, 2006, at 6:45:43
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger***, posted by Emily Elizabeth on May 11, 2006, at 23:46:29
I think it definitely helped to talk about this here. I was worried. About saying too much and I guess I projected my own feelings of disgust onto everyone here, thinking they would think the same of me. I should have known better. It has made me feel a lot better- supported and not alone and mostly that i dont have to hide from something that I had no control over. But my feelings tend to constantly change about this. One day I am confident I can move forward and the next I feel stuck for life.
Posted by madeline on May 12, 2006, at 7:03:31
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » Emily Elizabeth, posted by bent on May 12, 2006, at 6:45:43
*****One day I am confident I can move forward and the next I feel stuck for life******
Amen! That is EXACTLY how I feel too! It is soooooo hard to come to terms with CSA, I mean really come to terms with it. It feels like such a fight sometimes. But I know that I am fighting hopelessness and it something I am prepared to do.
I have had a hard time remembering exactly what happened to me, as I have learned that large blocks of my childhood are just lost to me. I get fragments here and there, but never the comprehensive picture.
My body remembers, my soul remembers, but my mind (god bless it) is keeping the worst of it from me. But what I do remember is very awful.
Daisy is right, however, you may feel shaky, vulnerable and perhaps even worse after you have shared your story with your T. So keep her close and tell her that you need her to be close.
Keep us close too. We are here. That's the great thing about the internet, someone is always here.
You can share this and be loved.
Maddie
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 12, 2006, at 9:23:27
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » bent, posted by daisym on May 11, 2006, at 19:04:26
> I think I'm in the minority that doesn't find the telling all that cathartic. I usually feel physically sick and I'm terrified for days that I'm going to get into trouble for telling.
I know this is a very personal question I'm going to try and ask, and I understand completely if you do not answer.....Have you ever worked on why you don't feel catharsis? Your described reaction seems very much in accord with what an abused child would feel. Like you're stuck there. Like you haven't yet accepted that it really wasn't your fault. You *are* in trouble for telling, the way you describe it. Or, do I not understand your meaning?
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 12, 2006, at 9:27:51
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » Larry Hoover, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 17:53:15
> your post really gave me a different perspective...maybe i am kind of practicing here. And the cockroach analogy said it all.
> No power in the light.
> Thank you.You're very welcome.
It was my discovery that many, not all, but many of my secrets looked different out in the open. The child me hid the secret, but the mature me rediscovers it. In the context of what I have learned about human experience, my mature self understands those secrets differently than did the child. Stripped of secrecy itself, I mean, they look different than I thought they would. All I needed was better illumination. In the light.
Lar
Posted by B2chica on May 12, 2006, at 10:08:25
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » B2chica, posted by bent on May 11, 2006, at 17:50:37
>Thats half my problem tho, when those feelings arise I dissociate. My T says its hard for her to tell when my mind sorta leaves the room but i have never been able to tell her either. I dont know how to stay present. I dont know if she can help with that or not. I guess I am gonna have to stay present and feel through these feelings if I am going to get past them. thanks for your support.
i know exactly how you feel. when i'd even start to get close or she nosed in a little to quickly i would 'fuzz out' but i was frozen and couldn't move or talk so i couldn't tell him. i got better and more able to talk about that, and my T got better at recognizing when i'd 'disappear'. but what usually helped was switching from what we were talking aobut to 'what just happened'. then talk about those feelings instead of others that caused it.
he was wonderful.b2c.
Posted by Daisym on May 12, 2006, at 11:41:54
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » daisym, posted by Larry Hoover on May 12, 2006, at 9:23:27
I might have talked about it before in these terms but I wanted desperately for therapy and my journey to remembering to be an "after-school special." -- You know: there is a deep, dark secret, it comes out, everyone says they are sorry, the "bad" guy is dead or goes to jail, but that is OK because he was more or less a stranger, and the whole family hugs and healing happens. It is just so much more complicated than that. My dad is still in my life and my family doesn't know. I just left a marriage that was edging towards being abusive. And I think a great deal of this for me is my ego is horribly bruised. I keep bumping up against how the csa effected my choices in life, when I would have sworn on a stack of bibles three years ago that I was totally OK inspite of it. I just didn't let it touch me. Wow, is that not true.
So when I tell the stories, they remind me that this will be with me always. I have to figure out how to have a relationship with it, as my therapist says. And you are right, I still have a long way to go to believe that somehow I didn't cause this. There is a very primitive belief that I'm just "bad" and didn't deserve to be saved. I have on several occasions said to my therapist, "where were you?! Why didn't you stop this?" He always responds that he wishes he was there and he would have stopped it. Those have been the most powerful conversations in breaking apart the belief that it was all my fault. I feel so young and unreasonable about these demands but he is very steady and thinks it is OK to be unreasonable about this. I think the shame and self-doubt are deeply embedded in my core. We've spent a ton of time ripping down the defenses to get to this core and now we are actually dismantling the core. But it is very scary to tell a story without a strong self-center. Again, this is why my therapist "lends" me his, until I'm strong again. And like most women who suffered csa, I am really good at intellectually knowing all kinds of stuff that I really don't believe. Like: I know it is NEVER the child's fault. I know that. I just don't believe that it wasn't, at least in some part, MY fault.
I don't know if this answers your question. It occurs to me often that I should just stop telling the stories if they are so disruptive. But honestly, I can't. It is almost like the floodgates are open and 30 years of holding onto it are pouring forth. So perhaps not immediately cathartic but still necessary to detoxify. Does that make any sense?
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 12, 2006, at 12:11:06
In reply to Re: conflicted feelings about csa ***trigger*** » Larry Hoover, posted by Daisym on May 12, 2006, at 11:41:54
> So perhaps not immediately cathartic but still necessary to detoxify. Does that make any sense?
Yes. You haven't gotten to the catharsis, yet. Thank you for your open-minded response. I understand much better now.
Lar
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