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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by happyflower on April 20, 2006, at 10:26:13
Last session I found out that my T is signed up to do the 5K that I am training for. It is his first time too at this race.
Well anyways he says , well when you are done will you be getting a cup of water for when he finsishes? Now maybe he is just being funny because there is no way I am going to come in before him.
But I felt like saying well I could get you a cup of water as long as I don't have one because that would be having a cup of water with me, and that is too social because you won't have a cup of coffee with me.
He drives me nuts sometimes. So I wonder will he have a cup of water for me if he finishes first? There is going to be over 4,000 people there, he could just very well ignore me if he wanted to . Why is he saying this stuff when he says he can't have a socail relationship with me? It this a mixed message, or am I imagining it all?
Posted by milly on April 20, 2006, at 11:06:07
In reply to Okay, this is me being a smart butt, posted by happyflower on April 20, 2006, at 10:26:13
Oh happy,
it sounds a bit of a mixed message to me, I know how confused I'd be if my T said that to me. I'd be so hopeful about all the possible fairytale endings.
Please don't get hurt, he musn't 'play' with you, I'm worried about you.
take care
milly
Posted by B2chica on April 20, 2006, at 11:25:46
In reply to Re: Okay, this is me being a smart butt » happyflower, posted by milly on April 20, 2006, at 11:06:07
it sounds to me like this T has a very flirtatious personality and light sense of humor. unfortunately in doing so he is Definately sending you mixed messages.
this would be painful for me, like salt in wounds. i would probably end up getting mad and telling him that i'm sensitive to that and would appreciate him not saying things that could be misconstrued. only say it if you mean it in other words.((((((((((((HF))))))))))))))
how painful. i'm so sorry he's not sensitive to what you are going through right now.i agree with milly. he mustn' play with you.not nice.
> Please don't get hurt, he musn't 'play' with you,
Posted by happyflower on April 20, 2006, at 12:40:48
In reply to Re: Okay, this is me being a smart butt » happyflower, posted by milly on April 20, 2006, at 11:06:07
> Oh happy,
> it sounds a bit of a mixed message to me, I know how confused I'd be if my T said that to me. I'd be so hopeful about all the possible fairytale endings.I have those hopes too, he knows it too. He knows I want a social relationship with him, we have talked about it briefly twice over the last couple of months. I guess from what I read it is unethical for them even to indicate that we could have a future relationship after therapy. He tells me no, but then he says this stuff. Maybe he is just trying to be funny. He said one time don't laugh at me when you pass me up on the track. So maybe I am just being sensitive to this.
> Please don't get hurt, he musn't 'play' with you, I'm worried about you.
I guess I didn't realize that I am feeling hurt by this until I read your post. I want him in my life always, but I can't have him. Maybe he doesn't know how I am taking it all. Is running the same race together different anything else outside of his office? I don't want him to ignore me, but to say I can get him a cup of water when he finished SOUNDS social to me, heck it sounds like ever more than that. Since when am I suppose to take care of his needs? Hmmmm.
Thanks for your suport Milly. How are you doing by the way?
Posted by happyflower on April 20, 2006, at 12:41:54
In reply to Re: Okay, this is me being a smart butt, posted by B2chica on April 20, 2006, at 11:25:46
Posted by happyflower on April 20, 2006, at 12:50:43
In reply to Re: Okay, this is me being a smart butt, posted by B2chica on April 20, 2006, at 11:25:46
.
i would probably end up getting mad and telling him that i'm sensitive to that and would appreciate him not saying things that could be misconstrued. only say it if you mean it in other words.I agree, but what I think when he does this is that MAYBE we can have an outside relationship. I guess if his no really means no, then I don't want him implying anything else because it gets my hopes up.
>
> ((((((((((((HF))))))))))))))
> how painful. i'm so sorry he's not sensitive to what you are going through right now.I am not as much in pain as being frusterated with him and the situation. I don't think he means to be insensitive, really.
> i agree with milly. he mustn' play with you.not nice.I don't know if he is trying to play with me but I think he is conflicted about our relationship. He has said that under different circumstances he would like to be social with me because he enjoys my company, but that we can't .It is like he is saying the things he should say as a T, but then I think his feelings for me are getting in the way with his clear thinking. He really is a good T , but I think I just got to him. LOL I don't want to stop working with him because we do make a great team. I guess I just need to vent to you guys sometimes, and stomp my feet. Thanks always B2.
Posted by B2chica on April 20, 2006, at 12:52:32
In reply to Re: Okay, this is me being a smart butt, posted by happyflower on April 20, 2006, at 12:50:43
Posted by happyflower on April 20, 2006, at 13:45:50
In reply to stomp away sweet HF (nm), posted by B2chica on April 20, 2006, at 12:52:32
Posted by susan47 on April 20, 2006, at 21:27:24
In reply to Thanks B2! LOL Can I yell and throw back my head (nm), posted by happyflower on April 20, 2006, at 13:45:50
In light of what happened in my own "therapy" I can only say I would be inclined not to let him get away with a remark like that. Why? It's obvious, to my mind. Because he KNOWS how you feel, how frustrated you are by the limitations of the therapy relationship you're having with him, you're at an extremely vulnerable time of learning to trust that he can handle your feelings for him and not run, NOW he's suggesting he might like you to be there for him afterwards with water, or that he might be there for you (??Sorry??) with water ... I'd let fly with how I feel about what he said Happyflower. Seriously. Why should you feel titillated by his teasing? How dare he, is my own reaction.
Posted by B2chica on April 21, 2006, at 11:59:02
In reply to Thanks B2! LOL Can I yell and throw back my head (nm), posted by happyflower on April 20, 2006, at 13:45:50
even better, he wants water huh, well why don't you dump some on that tight little white t-shirt he'll be wearing??
he wanted water right? why shouldn't you assume it's to cool off on the outside?
hehe ;^)
b2c.
Posted by joslynn on April 21, 2006, at 15:04:41
In reply to Okay, this is me being a smart butt, posted by happyflower on April 20, 2006, at 10:26:13
I think intentionally or accidentally, he is sending a mixed message. He is skating on some thin conversational ice, in my opinion.
I was in a vaguely similar situation, along with some overly personal self-disclosure stuff from the T. It all seems fun and special at the time. But then, when the bubble bursts, it hurts a lot. I am over all that now but I think something that can seem playful and casual to them has repercussions they do not realize. They should, but some of them just do not realize.
I finally had to tell the person that there were some things I didn't want to hear, that it was too confusing for me.
It can be emotionally seductive in away, IMO.
Posted by joslynn on April 21, 2006, at 15:21:38
In reply to yep...and!... » happyflower, posted by B2chica on April 21, 2006, at 11:59:02
This link is long, but somewhat helpful. Maybe just do command F and do a find for "slippery slope" or read the part about self-disclosure. http://faculty.ccri.edu/jhatfield/1200/Week1.htm
I am annoyed at myself that I found a bunch of good links on this way back when, but deleted them. I think they would be helpful to you.
I know it can seem fun at first, but it can lead to a big fall, a big disappointment, and it blurs the real relationships in one's life, no other man can compare. At least, that briefly happened to me.
Posted by joslynn on April 21, 2006, at 15:44:38
In reply to Okay, this is me being a smart butt, posted by happyflower on April 20, 2006, at 10:26:13
well, this is for all drs in general, but scroll down to the parts about self-disclosure and language. http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:lN1hkZyTfYsJ:www.mssny.org/members_only/prac_man/Boundaries.pdf+slippery+slope+boundary+crossings+violations&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=27&ie=UTF-8
Posted by susan47 on April 21, 2006, at 19:53:00
In reply to Re: yep...and!..., posted by joslynn on April 21, 2006, at 15:21:38
In light of the experience I had with my "therapist" I would definitely agree with you, and I haven't read this link yet but I definitely will, just wanted to reinforce that although it feels fun and fabulous .. FABulous, especially for those of us women who haven't had that kind of male attention before, it feels so affirming and it SHOULD be a result of the therapy, but I don't know how to keep the male out of the therapist when they can't see what they're doing, when they feed on the good feelings we give them, and reject the bad ones ...
There should be a therapy manual. There should be one .. is there one? Maybe if we read a manual we'd be too frightened to go into therapy!
Posted by happyflower on April 21, 2006, at 20:39:20
In reply to Re: Okay, this is me being a smart butt, posted by joslynn on April 21, 2006, at 15:04:41
Thanks Joslynn for the great links, I plan on rereading them this weekend.
I do think my relationship with my T is getting to be more "friendlike" or even "datelike".
It is hard because we do have so much in common and we both really do enjoy each others company.
This has been going on for some time now and I have done very good work with him over the past year. I feel really good about the progress so I don't want to quit before I am ready.
It is sometimes confusing because we do connect in a way that is special in of itself. He hasn't tried to put any moves on me or anything that has crossed boundry lines. Maybe he has blurres some them, but he safe legal wise.
I care about him very much and would like to have a relationship with him after therapy. I really like him a lot. He has been married a long time and I haven't forgotten that nor would I try to jepordize that, because I do care about him and want him to be happy. I think it would be nice to meet up with him maybe in 3 -6 months after termination, just to reconnect. But I will probably see him at the gym sometimes, and maybe that will be good enough.
Even though he will always be special to me, I think as I am making new friendships, maybe I will miss him less. I don't know.
Maybe I am reading more into what he is saying because I want it to be true. I guess I have more thinking to do about this. I am thinking of cancelling my next appointment in 2 weeks, just to give me time to think about this. I am respectful of his boundries, but it is hard when he says stuff like he does, not to want a friendship with him.
He asked me last time if I felt disapointed that we can't be friends and I said yes. The first time I told him it really sucks, and he said it sucks for him too, because he in other circumstances would like to have a social relationship with me because he likes to talk to me. So it is confusing, maybe more than hurtful.
I am wondering if his many self disclosures are more about him than really helpful for me. I do love to hear his stories about him, but I am paying him to talk about himself when it probably should be more to do with me.He isn't a bad guy , I hope I don't mean to make him sound like an unethical jerk. I bet all T's at one time or another meet someone as their client who becomes more special to them even though they shouldn't let that happen, but I think sometimes you can't help how you feel.
I know another another one of his clients who goes to the gym and she knows nothing compaired to what I know about him and what he has shared with me. He has even told me there are some clients he would never want to be social with, he doesn't feel the same about all his clients. But another time he said he was going to treat all his clients the same. So who knows?
I will be careful not to get my hopes up too high.
Posted by susan47 on April 22, 2006, at 7:58:26
In reply to Re: Okay, this is me being a smart butt » joslynn, posted by happyflower on April 21, 2006, at 20:39:20
I'm really happy your therapist is making a special connection with you, giving you strength you need, and you've worked really hard to make that connection with him. Maybe that's why it works. I hope it continues to work, and I hope you can prove to others that loving relationships can happen inside therapy, and continue in the real world, without any threat to anybody in spite of your respective sexes and hang-ups around all that worldly stuff the world likes to throw at us.
Posted by susan47 on April 22, 2006, at 8:13:44
In reply to Re: Okay, this is me being a smart butt, posted by joslynn on April 21, 2006, at 15:44:38
"For example, a patient may only see a surgeon for one procedure, but if that procedure is lifesaving, the patient may retain a persistently idealized and dependent attitude toward that surgeon, which would compromise the capacity for mutual consent."
I just thought those lines were interesting reading from a psychological standpoint, with the surgeon being the therapist, and how many times we end up exactly feeling that way, and how dangerous that is if the therapist is having any problems of their own, not dealt with, or whatever .. even being completely okay .. how do they handle that unless they're completely okay? Who can always be that way? I can see why it's called a slippery slope .. but it's so incredibly painful for a patient. I wish there were a manual for patients.. telling us how much our therapists really care .. although I have to say I've read one person on this board for sure whose patients I feel dreadfully sorry for .. someone with no empathy or uhnderstanding, very very little tolerance for anything out of the ordinary .. you have to wonder why some people choose to be therapists ... and feel sorry for their patients. I think I get why some therapists call their clients "patients" .. maybe to remind themselves of their role and their purpose ...
Posted by gardenergirl on April 22, 2006, at 20:29:18
In reply to Re: yep...and!..., posted by joslynn on April 21, 2006, at 15:21:38
Thanks for posting that. I bookmarked it.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on April 22, 2006, at 20:47:53
In reply to Re: Okay, this is me being a smart butt » joslynn, posted by happyflower on April 21, 2006, at 20:39:20
Hi happyflower,
Especially after reading the link joslynn posted, I do think that your T is sending you mixed messages. He may not be aware of it. But what the article said about feeling like a client is "special" or that you feel more friendly to, that you have more in common with, that you might be friends with in another siutation...all those things are red flags. It's up to the T to observe that it's going on with them and to manage the therapy relationship and their own feelings appropriately. So I guess I'm saying that he might be totally unaware of this aspect of his behavior towards you and how you are perceiving it. And of course the stock suggestion....talk to him about it! :)
I can tell you it's an easy thing to fall into, innocently or not. I had a client once who was similar to me in age, in education, in sense of humor, political beliefs, etc. This was someone with whom I could see myself being friends with if we had met under different circumstances. There were times in the therapy when I noticed I was more casual with this client than with others. I probably self-disclosed stuff (pretty innocuous, but still...) more often and not as a therapeutic tool but more like friends would. We occasionally talked about stuff unrelated to therapy during parts of the sessions... All things that are unlike my usual style.
So, while I was unaware of any sexual or romantic feelings which might have been present, just the treating the person differently and more casually could have (and for all I know might have) led to the client feeling confused about what to expect in therapy and the therapy relationship. Or about how I might have felt.
I feel like I'm rambling about this some. It's been awhile since I was at that particular setting, and I've had some distance from it. I know I'd do things differently knowing what I know now. I wonder if I could have been more helpful or more therapeutic for the client if I had noticed this right away and not let the casual conversations invade the therapy space so much.
I think it's important for T's to "check" themselves periodically. The warning signs and questions to ask yourself in the link joslynn posted are a good way to do that, I think. Hmm, maybe you could ask your T some of those questions? (eek!)
I feel for you, with the complex feelings and stuff going on with your therapy relationship. While I believe that there can be value to the client in working out this kind of thing, too, it's still stressful and confusing. It can feel like it takes over from whatever the "presenting problem" is, too.
Okay, I'm going to be quiet now.
Take care,
gg
Oh, and I'm so impressed with your exercise diligence and training for a run. Good for you!
Posted by happyflower on April 24, 2006, at 9:32:05
In reply to Re: Okay, this is me being a smart butt » happyflower, posted by gardenergirl on April 22, 2006, at 20:47:53
Thanks for your post, GG< you have given me a lot to think about.
This is the end of the thread.
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