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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2006, at 12:22:48
I'm beginning to wonder if therapy is really such a very good idea. It seems to cause a lot of pain to a lot of people. And it does seem to be designed to arouse feelings in the client that might not be in their best interests.
I guess I need to hear from people who had a strong transference and came out happily on the other end, with a good natural termination. Or even those who had premature terminations without serious harm or undue pain.
Posted by milly on March 30, 2006, at 13:28:49
In reply to Heretical thought, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2006, at 12:22:48
I have wondered that quite a bit too (but haven't voiced it because it did seem a bit contriversial)
It has been so painful at times I have often wondered how it is doing me any goodI am now facing total heartbreak at the end of a relationship I didn't go looking for
Alot of the memories uncovered have been really hard to cope with and now they are loose in my head and not safely locked in their boxes and I'm loosing the one person who was helping me process it all.
milly
Posted by LadyBug on March 30, 2006, at 14:54:01
In reply to Heretical thought, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2006, at 12:22:48
I wonder about this same issue ALL THE TIME!!! In fact this week I tell myself; if I didn't go to therapy, I would never have to hear my therapist tell me she is "leaving" to go out of town!!!! This always sets off a trigger for me. It feels like abandonment and the feelings I get from it hurts more than I care to feel. I know it's an issue I have and it's deep, but her leaving town triggers it everytime she leaves! which is quite often lately. She always brings it up at the very END of our hour and then leaves me alone with it when I need time to process it WITH her. I've grown so dependant on the connection I have with her. I wonder how I'll ever break away and feel ok. 9 years is a lot of time and money spent!!! I don't see the end in site and I wonder if I'll ever have what I need to terminate this work.
I'd love to read what other people have to say too. I often wonder about this.
LadyBug
Posted by happyflower on March 30, 2006, at 15:02:55
In reply to Heretical thought, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2006, at 12:22:48
I think when I lose the relationship my T it will break my heart but what he has done for me will last a lifetime. Therapy has had some hard moments, but not as hard as living with the past on my back. I am very grateful for therapy and I am even now (even though I am not done) am having a much better life than before therapy. Therapy changed my life in such a positive way that even losing my T , will not erase the good stuff because my T will live within me until I die. ;-)
I guess it is kinda like in grade school when you have a favorite teacher. They mean the world to us at the moment, but then you are forced to more on to another teacher, but you will never forget your favorite teacher.
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2006, at 16:46:55
In reply to Re: Heretical thought, posted by happyflower on March 30, 2006, at 15:02:55
I think, to flesh out my still forming thought, that therapy has effects on the human heart that they just haven't taken into consideration. Yes, it changes our ways of thinking, yes, it improves our lives. But once it touches our hearts, is it prepared to deal with that? Is therapy prepared to deal with the side effects of love?
When you love someone, is it ever ok to lose them? Yes, it happens. Our moms and dads die. Our lovers and spouses leave us. But do we ever really get over that? I know I think of Daddy most days. I know I think of other loved ones most days. And those were relationships that ended with death. A relationship where the other person is still there, but unreachable...
And is it really good for us to be put in that situation?
I always thought I was ok. I didn't want any more from my therapist than I had. I didn't want more than two hours a week in an office. I didn't want to be in his "real" life. But I wanted him in my life. I thought I was ok. I thought I wouldn't be hurt.
I had a family that I valued. That's where my real life took place. Therapy was a part of my life, but a set-aside part. How could it hurt me?
But I'm hurt. And now I really understand the large number of people who have described how hurt they've been. And so many continue to hurt long after the therapy is over. And I understand how reading here can hurt. It can even hurt to read about therapists' vacations, because I remember when I was upset about my therapist's vacation.
How can this be a good thing? How can anything that touches the heart then leaves it bruised and battered be a good thing?
Posted by annierose on March 30, 2006, at 17:08:35
In reply to Re: Heretical thought, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2006, at 16:46:55
I understand what you are saying. But I believe this is where the skills of the therapist come into play. Now that the client is securely attached, how can the T work with that attachment, within all the ups and downs, and bring the client out to the "other side" (so to speak) --- feeling it's okay to say goodbye.
When I'm going through a down period, I can't imagine how I will terminate this relationship. And when I'm feeling good, and all is well with the world (or at least my little part), I see that I will be okay. I will miss our conversations, her questions, her take on any given situation --- that connection. I now see how she is helping me build that type of bond/closeness with my husband and children. And I can see an end, and it doesn't scare me, at least this week. And termination is off in the distance.
When I was struggling with therapy a few weeks back, my T asked me to dump it all on her lap. That it was her job to sort it all out for me. And I was to bring her all my feelings. That I didn't need to think about therapy all the time. That I could rest my worries until the next time we met. It was a light bulb moment for me. Yes, I still think of therapy. But some of the worry has lifted. I don't have to carry it around anymore.
Posted by All Done on March 30, 2006, at 17:09:23
In reply to Re: Heretical thought, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2006, at 16:46:55
I think I have a lot to say on this subject, but my thoughts aren't nearly organized enough at the moment. I too question if it's worth the pain. And my heart does hurt at the moment.
But I want to say that sometimes...my heart feels more wonderful and more full than I ever imagined it could. I'm glad I'm finding out I'm capable of that. I hope I can put it to good use in my real life.
I'm sorry you're feeling like your heart has been left bruised and battered, Dinah. I wish I could turn back time for you.
(((Dinah's heart)))
Laurie
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2006, at 17:13:33
In reply to Re: Heretical thought » Dinah, posted by annierose on March 30, 2006, at 17:08:35
But has anyone gotten to the other side and still been ok?
Has anyone actually finished therapy, terminated, with a therapist they were intensely attached to, and been ok?
Outside of professional literature.
And maybe it depends on the client. Maybe there are clients whose attachments are so intense that they'll never ever be ok, even if some people will be ok. Do they anticipate this? Do they train for it?
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2006, at 17:17:05
In reply to Re: Heretical thought » Dinah, posted by All Done on March 30, 2006, at 17:09:23
Thanks Laurie.
Sometimes I wonder if anything will ever be ok again. Even if we stay. Even though he's coming back. Even though if we stay he can see me twice a week again, unless I quit and can't afford it.
I don't think it will ever be ok again, even if all those things happen. I think it could look ok again, and I think I could pretend that it was ok again and even fool myself, but I don't think it will ever really really be ok ever again.
Nothing will ever be ok again. Not really.
Posted by TherapyGirl on March 30, 2006, at 19:44:33
In reply to Heretical thought, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2006, at 12:22:48
Dinah, I've had a long couple of days with more family drama and my T is on vacation this week, so please forgive me if what I write isn't as clear as it otherwise would be.
I have seen my T for 21 years, but stopped going for about 7 years from 1996 to 2003. I checked in over the phone about once a month or every other month and we occasionally met somewhere for lunch. As attached as I had been to her before that time (and as anxious as I was up until that time to be without her), the 7 years were fine. My intense attachment to her was gone -- it was like I couldn't even remember how intense it had been. And I handled my life okay and was relatively happy.
So, of course, now I'm on the other side of a new trauma and seeing her again every week and every one of the feelings/separation anxiety/attachment issues has come back up. When it started again, I completely freaked out. But she told me that this is what nearly everyone does under tremendous stress -- they revert back to previous patterns of handling it and "neediness" (my word, not hers). She is not at all worried about it and thinks I will reach the middle ground regarding her again. I sure hope so, because she'll be retiring in a few years and I need to be ready to deal with that.
As far as your other question -- I truly believe I would be dead without therapy, and specifically without my relationship with this therapist. She did what no one else has ever done for me -- gave me a safe place, taught me how to make myself safe (most of the time) when I'm not with her and let me experience being connected to her, with all of its ups and downs. I've learned how to be mad at her without leaving or going overboard with my anger, I've learned how to tell her I'm hurt, heck I've learned how to talk about my childhood issues period. The first 4 years in therapy, I sat on her couch week after week in almost total silence.
So, yes, I think therapy does do some good. I know you're in a completely awful place with it right now. But I like how you ask the tough questions and work so hard to process your relationship with your T. I believe you will be okay no matter what happens, but I hear that it doesn't feel that way to you. I'm keeping the good thought for you, though, okay?
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2006, at 19:54:58
In reply to Re: Heretical thought -- possible trigger » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on March 30, 2006, at 19:44:33
So it was ok not to see her after you had been really attached?
I went six weeks without him when he was out of the country, and it wasn't ok. And while we were evacuated I drove hours a day to see him, and the time I couldn't see him felt like forever even though it couldn't have been more than two weeks.
I really can't imagine it being ok.
Posted by TherapyGirl on March 30, 2006, at 20:40:25
In reply to Re: Heretical thought -- possible trigger » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2006, at 19:54:58
I know you can't imagine it, Dinah, because a good bit of the time I can't imagine it right now either. But it did happen. It was really, really okay and I believe (on my good days) that it will be okay again.
I think it's different, for one thing, if it is a mutual decision rather than as a result of the T's schedule. My T missed 6 weeks around the 2nd or 3rd year and I thought I'd never make it. She was out two weeks about 6 weeks after my newest trauma and the same thing happened. But when I'm in a better place, I can get my needs met from friends and family and not so much just her. When I'm in a rotten place, she's the only one who will do. (Much like a 2-year-old who is fine with others until she gets hurt or is sick -- then she just wants Mommy.)
Posted by sleepygirl on March 30, 2006, at 23:27:54
In reply to Heretical thought, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2006, at 12:22:48
At times it took a lot of strength on my part to deal with the emotions I've had in therapy. It is a tricky endeavor I think. I am happy to say though at this point that it was in fact very much worth it. I really do understand the question though, sometimes you gotta wonder.
Posted by Veracity on March 31, 2006, at 8:21:28
In reply to Re: Heretical thought » Dinah, posted by sleepygirl on March 30, 2006, at 23:27:54
Has anyone read the book, _One Child_, by Torey Hayden? It deals with this same issue (better to have loved and lost...) only between a teacher and student rather than therapist and client. It's really, really good (I recommend all of Hayden's books).
My opinion is that pain is life and if therapy weren't inherently painful, we wouldn't learn anything worthwhile.
Posted by pegasus on March 31, 2006, at 11:42:39
In reply to Heretical thought, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2006, at 12:22:48
Yes, it's so painful, isn't it. I've had to ask myself that question as well. Personally I've concluded that I'd rather have all of the gains I've gotten through therapy, even if I also have to have the pain. I'm so much better off in so many areas of my life. I can't even begin to list them all.
And, yes, I also do have this really deep and persistent pain over the ending of that relationship. Which I'd truly like to not have.
It's not only a cost/benefit analysis, though. There is a beauty to having had the relationship itself, quite apart from therapy benefit. It was really a good relationship, and I'm proud of having managed to have it. I'm glad to have the memories of the good parts of it now. Yes because they help me be healthy, but also because they were just positive, warm interactions that I value for their own sake. Even if it is also often quite painful to remember parts of it.
peg
Posted by 10derHeart on March 31, 2006, at 15:12:14
In reply to Re: Heretical thought, posted by Veracity on March 31, 2006, at 8:21:28
> Has anyone read the book, _One Child_, by Torey Hayden?
Yes! Loved it. She is a great writer. Here's the link:
>>It deals with this same issue (better to have loved and lost...) only between a teacher and student rather than therapist and client. It's really, really good (I recommend all of Hayden's books).<<
Yup. Yup.
>
> My opinion is that pain is life and if therapy weren't inherently painful, we wouldn't learn anything worthwhile.That is my opinion, too. The amount of pain from the longings, fears and attachments is really the flip side of the incredible warmth and comfort I get from the acceptance, caring and commitment to *me* as a unique and special person. Though I have my moments of, "I can't stand this...." it's worth it to me just to have the relationship be as intimate as it is. I crave that and need it like a thirsty person in a desert. I find I can relive the moments of intense connection, a handshake, a caring look, those "just right" words - over and over, and it helps so much.
Posted by fairywings on April 1, 2006, at 0:10:56
In reply to Heretical thought, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2006, at 12:22:48
The first pdoc/therapist was horrible, and the termination was unbearable bec. he fostered that. After him I saw a wonderful pdoc/T. I loved him, and then left him after about 2 years working with him. I don't even remember the feelings of loving him or leaving him now. It was okay, and I went on to do well. Then maybe 6 years later I saw a woman, never attached but liked her a lot, she made the light bulb go on. I got what I needed, and after a few months I left - no problems - I was fine. I went for years without seeing anyone for myself, or needing any therapy for myself.
Later, I went through a few short times with some marriage counseling, then kid and family counseling a few times over the past 16 years. I went, and left with no problems. I like the T's, and had a relationship, but walked away unscathed. The marriage counselor was wonderful - would have loved her for indiv. therapy, but unfortunately, she died and our therapy ended. It was sad but she gave us so much, and I was grateful for her. The family and kid therapist was female, more of a beloved aunt type, and the boundaries were very loose. I loved her, and think about her, but don't pine for her, never did, and I think at any point if I wanted to see her I could - therapy or semi-social, but I don't need to - I'm okay with not seeing her. She helped my daughter SO much, and I'm grateful, but it ended well.
I saw my ex T, and even that was hard to leave bec. I liked him - he was unlike anyone I've ever known in a good way, and some not so good ways. I still see him at the office, and I like him, but don't miss him because I'm so happy with my current T. I can't imagine terminating. I don't want to....maybe I won't ever have to...I don't know. I just don't want to think about it. I care about him very much, and I get a lot from him. It would be very painful at this point to have to terminate therapy, but I'm in a different place in my life than I was all those other times.
I guess what I'm trying to say is I know it can be done, bec. I've done it, but you have such a long history with your T. It truly would be a great loss. Your feelings .....questioning whether it's all worth it in the first place, are understandable. Not to mention you've been through so many ordeals in the past year. I'd guess that alone makes you want the stability of that relationship.
You're reallly amazing Dinah. I hope you don't have to terminate, or if you do, I hope it's when you're ready, not bec. of circumstances beyond your control.
fw
Posted by cecilia on April 3, 2006, at 3:43:19
In reply to Heretical thought, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2006, at 12:22:48
I agree with the heretical thought. My ex-t caused me more pain than anyone else in my life. (and I've had a lot of pain). I know it's my own fault for keeping going when she wasn't helping me, but are T's really so stupid they don't see how irrationally attached people get to them? Surely there are other ways they could make money without hurting people so badly. Maybe drug dealing or CEO of a tobacco company....Cecilia
Posted by zazenduck on April 3, 2006, at 8:41:52
In reply to Heretical thought, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2006, at 12:22:48
> I'm beginning to wonder if therapy is really such a very good idea.
I don't think it is for a lot of people. Maybe sadly for some of the people who are most sensitive and in most pain to begin with.
It seems to cause a lot of pain to a lot of people.
That's obvious from reading this board.
And it does seem to be designed to arouse feelings in the client that might not be in their best interests.
Exactly. And there is no one else there to know what is going on. And many people do not react as predicted by the models they teach in grad school. The human heart is not predictable. I see more people hurt than not. And I feel pained to hear of therapists reassuring that you will be able to let go when it is time! They have no way to know. And they are only human. Naturally they want to believe what they are doing is good and useful.
>
> I guess I need to hear from people who had a strong transference and came out happily on the other end, with a good natural termination. Or even those who had premature terminations without serious harm or undue pain.I would like to hear that too.
This is the end of the thread.
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