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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by B2chica on December 19, 2005, at 12:02:54
what is the difference between
molestation
sexual abuse
rape
Posted by Tamar on December 19, 2005, at 16:54:23
In reply to definitions??? **Trigger**, posted by B2chica on December 19, 2005, at 12:02:54
> what is the difference between
>
> molestation
> sexual abuse
> rapeHi B2C
I’m not exactly sure what you’re looking for. Just a general set of definitions? I don’t know all the legal definitions, but this is what I understand by the terms.
Molestation
A form of sexual assault in which the perpetrator touches the victim (unlike flashing, where no touch is involved).Sexual Abuse
I would normally use this term when speaking of sexual abuse of children (rather than adult women). I believe it covers various forms of inappropriate sexual behaviour including molestation and rape and also other kinds of sexual behaviour, e.g. if the perpetrator exposes him/herself to the victim, or shows the victim pornography, or photographs the victim in sexual poses. So a person can be sexually abused without being touched by the perpetrator.Rape
I would normally use this word to describe non-consensual penetrative sexual behaviour, whether it involves a penis and a vagina, a penis and a mouth, or a penis and an anus. I would also call it rape if an implement is used in place of a penis.Hope that’s of some help.
Tamar
Posted by B2chica on December 20, 2005, at 8:56:46
In reply to Re: definitions??? **Trigger** » B2chica, posted by Tamar on December 19, 2005, at 16:54:23
yes, i was just wanting general definitions. it's just these terms are used so interchangably that i'm not sure of them. like molestation i didn't know if that included penetration or not?
thanks Tamar.
Posted by Tamar on December 22, 2005, at 18:47:06
In reply to Re: definitions??? **Trigger**, posted by B2chica on December 20, 2005, at 8:56:46
> yes, i was just wanting general definitions. it's just these terms are used so interchangably that i'm not sure of them. like molestation i didn't know if that included penetration or not?
> thanks Tamar.I think molestation could include penetration. But at that point I'd probably call it rape. In that sense, rape could be a form of molestation, but somehow I think molestation doesn't quite describe what happens with penetration.
It's complicated, isn't it?
From what you've said here, I'd call what your brother did rape, sexual abuse and molestation. I've call what the other guy did rape and sexual assault.
But it doesn't matter much what I say. You have to decide for yourself how to categorise your own experience.
Love and safe hugs,
Tamar
Posted by B2chica on December 28, 2005, at 20:53:38
In reply to Re: definitions??? **Trigger**, posted by Tamar on December 22, 2005, at 18:47:06
> I think molestation could include penetration. But at that point I'd probably call it rape. In that sense, rape could be a form of molestation, but somehow I think molestation doesn't quite describe what happens with penetration.
>
> It's complicated, isn't it?
YES
>
> From what you've said here, I'd call what your brother did rape, sexual abuse and molestation. I've call what the other guy did rape and sexual assault.you know Tamar, you have in the past some very helpful information in my situations.
this response made me tear up. i just can't seem to say i was raped by either one. logically, legally i guess it would. but i just can't seem to emotionally admit it. i'm very confused and still have some 'mother' issues to deal with (don't we all...). but i think (selfishly here) that i need to heart EXACTLY what you wrote, in fact i need to hear it again and again. maybe if i hear that from enough other people, then it must be true and the denial with stop. cuz it's the denial that's now causing me heartaches. back and forth, back and forth its like i'm on some possessed teeter-toter!all i can call them now are humiliating mistakes that i got myself into.
thank you so much Tamar.
hugs to you.
b2c.
Posted by B2chica on December 28, 2005, at 21:14:59
In reply to Re: definitions??? **Trigger**, posted by Tamar on December 22, 2005, at 18:47:06
this is quite graphic so please don't read if your not in any state to handle things of a grahpic nature.
if you're reading further, please don't think i'm sick or disgusting if you think or feel that please don't post...this is really hard for me.
i'm posting this cuz i'm too ashamed to ask my T. but...well when i was young, starting about 7 or so with my brother, i won't go into much but one thing my bother (and neighbor boy-but my brother started it)did to me, but i think by giving it a name i'm closer to being in control of it.
here goes...
well, to say it quickly, he used to put things in me vaginally and move it around in there but the part i hated most was when he'd put something in my well i'd like to say behind but i'll state the term anus here. ok, but from now on, i'll call it 'my planet'.
he put anything he could find mostly crayons (the fat ones), toy thermometers, his finger (doing 'doctor' exames, and mostly markers, most of this hurt i remember crying a couple times and ask i was bent over the bed i would try to get up and he would put his hand on my back and push me gently back down. of course he would manipulate me by saying that if i cry he'd tell mom that i was crying and she'd give me a whipping. you know the typical big brother stuff, the 'its your fault not mine routine. if mom found out she'd kick me out of the house...etc., etc.after all this unmentionable information. my question is what would this be called. i was trying to read about sodomy but (that i can remember never used his penis) and isn't that the rule? not objects but when a penis is used? it was always objects that he and the neighbor boy would find. that i can remember... hell for all i know he could have put a popbottle in me...oh god...oh god...popbottle, popbottle and pain. i remember he used a popbottle in front and in my 'planet'.
man thisjust really s@cks!!!!!!
it's like this stupid little memories keep jumpting up out of nowhere!point of the story...definitions anyone?
b2c.
i ALWAYS had to take off my close..sometimes just upper
i'm MAD.
you hear that PsyDoc! i'm ticked off that i always ended up without my close! i HATE THAT!
i was raised to never ever say "Hate" so when i feel that way i suck it in. years of this. so i'm trying very hard to do this my T's way.
Posted by daisym on December 29, 2005, at 10:52:33
In reply to sorry long...New definitions **Trigger**, posted by B2chica on December 28, 2005, at 21:14:59
Please remind me again of the age difference between you and your brother...
If he was much older, it seems to me that this was a form of sadistic entertainment for him. Obviously he had some problems of his own. Did it feel angry, like he was trying to hurt you? Was it a form of torture? You wrote that he pushed you gently back down on the bed...which makes me think it was a game for him, at least in his mind, treating you like an object and not a person. Kids are mean to each other all the time, teasing, irritating each other, even physically fighting. I just can't imagine where this behavior would come from unless he was being abused himself in someway or had other issues.
If you guys were close in age, like he was 8 or 9, playing doctor among siblings is pretty common. This was extreme, but children of this age are often facinated with the anus, because they can shock people talking about poop or f*rts or whatever. Still -- ongoing like this really indicates that your brother had some real mental health issues - I know you already know that.
YOU weren't/aren't sick or disgusting or anything like that. You were a little girl being held hostage. People who were suppose to take care of you didn't. But you know what? (this is going to sound harsh) -- finding the right label, the correct terminology, the "appropriate" way to say it out loud isn't going to change how horrible it makes you feel. You can say sodomy or anal sex or penetration but it doesn't change that it was brutal and humiliating. I did this for awhile, I kept looking for the right way to describe it, to be "fair" about what it really was. And sometimes I still do that. Like I would say, "it wasn't rape -- I wasn't afraid for my life (//?//); it wasn't a surprise and it wasn't an attack."
For me it was an attempt to be polite as I talked about it and to distance myself from it. My therapist would restate what I said using all the terms and it made me wince. He, however, didn't flinch. Now, depending on how I feel, I'll use all kinds of words, or hide behind the all encompassing word "abuse."
I guess I'm trying to tell you that there is no right or wrong way to describe it. What happened was horrible. There is no way to dress it up for polite discussion. It doesn't deserve that kind of presentation anyway. It is ugly. Let it be ugly.
I wish I could make it easier for you.
(((B2)))
Posted by B2chica on January 2, 2006, at 10:57:52
In reply to Re: sorry long...New definitions **Trigger** » B2chica, posted by daisym on December 29, 2005, at 10:52:33
thank you daisy. i've had a loooong week. thursday i started in about my mother, some early childhood and teen stuff. my T asked if i wanted to see him again on friday (to continue) i needed to, it's like i struck a nerve and needed to get the filth out of my. thurs night i wrote down some of the stuff my mom did that disturbed me. friday i was embarrased and humiliated to show T, but i thought of you guys and i know you'd say that i've already felt humilation from when it happened, at least this time i'd be safe and with someone who cares. i let it all out, i included the post i put here about what my brother did.
i no longer have any secrets with my T.
he said that from what i described about my mother he wouldn't be surprised if my brother was abused also.my brother is two and 1/2 years older than me.
anyway. when i let my T read what i wrote about my mother i couldn't even stand to be 'there', so i took my mp3 player and told him that i'm super humiliated and didn't know how he'd react so i was going to listen to music and just wave at me when he's done. my music takes me away.
when he was done, he waved to me, looked at me (i then immediately looked down) and he said 'chica, you mother is crazy'. he said that the things she did was sexual abuse. it's still wierd to hear that cuz it seems so normal, like that is just part of life, it's how things were. but he said he said that i was an extension of her and there were no boundries and he doesn't know where in the hell i got mine.
we'll talk more about it tomorrow.
it was SO hard sat. cuz my husband had us throw a new year's eve party and of course invited my mother and father. i couldn't even stand to look at her. luckily i stayed in the kitchen and did the hostess thing and sent her down stairs, but right away she said oh hi, you look so good, blah, blah, blah-all gidy like she was doped up, showing off her 'good mother behavior'. it made me sick. i finally had to go to my room and SI a little, i didn't cut just bruised up my arm really good. i'm not sure how long i can hide it from my hubby, they're big bruises, but i felt better.long story short. i'm finally over the hill of secrets, its all out. now i just need to talk about them in therapy. i just can't believe how great my T is. i still can't believe he doesn't cringe at the thought of me, being sick or something.
thanks for the support daisym.
b2c.
Posted by zenhussy on January 2, 2006, at 13:08:53
In reply to Re: sorry long...New definitions **Trigger** » daisym, posted by B2chica on January 2, 2006, at 10:57:52
>>>long story short. i'm finally over the hill of secrets, its all out. now i just need to talk about them in therapy. i just can't believe how great my T is. i still can't believe he doesn't cringe at the thought of me, being sick or something.
that's the crazy thing for survivors to understand...that their therapist isn't going to wig out on what their client says. unfortunately the fear survivors usually live in keeps them from reaching out and letting it out for so long.
what amazingly difficult work you are doing and what tremendous results (and relief) you're going to achieve from all of this!! wow. support your way for facing this intensity in your life.
good job B2.
reading this statement from you says so much about how hard you're working at this..."i'm finally over the hill of secrets, its all out."
Posted by daisym on January 2, 2006, at 16:27:28
In reply to Re: sorry long...New definitions **Trigger** » B2chica, posted by zenhussy on January 2, 2006, at 13:08:53
Zen,
How do you KNOW when all the secrets are out? Everytime I think I'm done...
And when I reached the top of this hill, what I could see in the distance were so many more hills to climb. Some look really steep too.
What do you do when you feel like you just CAN'T keep doing this work? But no matter how much you want to ignore it, you can't do that either. The voice that says I am making mountains out of molehills is really loud right now. I know what happened to you is so much worse and you seem so steady in your quest to heal.
I guess I'm feeling sorry for myself and looking for the secret.
*sigh*
Posted by zenhussy on January 2, 2006, at 17:59:48
In reply to Re: sorry long...New definitions **Trigger** » zenhussy, posted by daisym on January 2, 2006, at 16:27:28
>>>I know what happened to you is so much worse
nope sweetie. nobody had it "worse"
unfortunately as children we're often not able to define what is done to us as abuse. it can take years in therapy to build trust just to even say the words "rape" "incest" "abuse" "torture" etc.
so when do we know it is all out? when we're no longer plagued by wishing for death and feeling lower than a slug's slime trail and no longer putting everyone elses needs before our own. we know it is closer to coming all out when we are able to remain in the present for most triggering events that only a couple years back unhinged us.
feeling sorry for oneself is allowed and often a major part of the healing. when younger and in the midst of abuse usually children aren't given any comfort, support or validation. it makes sense to "relearn" and not re-live but LIVE FOR THE FIRST TIME learning how to allow others to help us, learning how to say yes when people offer to listen to our pain inside, learning how to do the steps that work for each person/system to help validate and chip away at the self loathing and hatred that can be part of the abuse tracks laid down deep in our soul.
time, therapy, doing the work and medications with *constant* communication with pdoc and awesome support from a varied health team (yes, even on the dole one can find ppl outside the system)have all helped shift a suicidally thinking zh three years back into a "life is a hassle and there still are huge hills to climb but death isn't the auto answer and mistakes do not equate 'must die now'"
hth and sweetie just know that by doing the work you are doing, being honest with your T and pdoc and yourself/ves that you're going to continue to grow stronger as the secrets are let out.
you ARE on the path and you ARE doing the work.
taking time to feel sorry and lay low when appropriate is very healthy. allowing oneself to "feel" poorly w/o getting into all the reasons one SHOULDN'T be feeling that way helps one become more in touch with the emotions that one spent years dissociating from.
you're not making mountains daisy........you are climbing and conquering mountains. molehills? those are for wussies! abuse isn't molehills.
don't diminish what you lived through.
kindly,
__zh
Posted by daisym on January 3, 2006, at 0:14:13
In reply to abuse is abuse is abuse ***could trigger*** » daisym, posted by zenhussy on January 2, 2006, at 17:59:48
Thanks so much zh, I'm sitting here with tears pouring down my face because your kindness hurts...a good kind of hurt but such a contrast.
We talked about self hatred today. I danced all around it but some part of me really wanted to talk about the conflict that causes some other part of me to hurt myself. I've never been able to explore it before, admitting to self-abuse is wretchingly hard. It brings in all those old feelings of not deserving to be consoled or helped or saved.
I'm glad you are doing so much better. Blazing a trail so I can see that it can be done is important to me. Please keep sharing when you can. I hang on tightly to these threads sometimes.
Love and hugs,
Daisy
Posted by zenhussy on January 4, 2006, at 2:44:10
In reply to Re: abuse is abuse is abuse ***could trigger*** » zenhussy, posted by daisym on January 3, 2006, at 0:14:13
Daisy,
been attempting a response for some time now but the brain isn't cooperating.your post brought good tears this way as well.
Thank YOU!
with respect for the work you're doing,
__zh
This is the end of the thread.
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