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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 36. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on October 5, 2005, at 9:14:50
In reply to Re: Being in therapy is too much like being in lov » Dinah, posted by Annierose on October 5, 2005, at 8:55:05
> I guess since it's like a love relationship, you do consider the other person's feelings ... BUT ... you do need to look out for yours first. He has been supportive of seeing the female T, right? On the other hand, maybe he feels protective of you, and those feelings of "someone else is now helping Dinah" come into play.
Yeah, he says I need to do what I need to do. But he's never been too fond of the two therapist thing. I'm hoping he's not so opposed to it that he'll refuse to continue seeing me when he can.
>
> Yes, I agree. T's sometimes read too much into our written words. Tone and inflection is lost in the written word, so your intended meaning may be different than what he read. However, you are the queen bee of the written word.Big grin. (blush and thanks)
> I also think you have a right to be as b*tchy as you need to be! Did you try to make another appointment with T2?
Yeah, I see her Thursday. Since I am avoiding bringing up my feelings about my therapist with her, I'm thinking of telling her that I'd like to work on some of the issues that were hard to work on with a male therapist.
Posted by Dinah on October 5, 2005, at 9:15:25
In reply to Re: Being in therapy is too much like being in lov, posted by Dinah on October 5, 2005, at 9:14:50
Posted by Dinah on October 5, 2005, at 9:16:23
In reply to Oops. First post for Falls, second for AnnieRose (nm), posted by Dinah on October 5, 2005, at 9:15:25
Posted by Shortelise on October 5, 2005, at 10:58:59
In reply to Being in therapy is too much like being in love, posted by Dinah on October 5, 2005, at 6:50:13
I have had the same thought many times - it's like being in love without getting lai... er, without sex.
Dinah, oh, Dinah, you know the drill - ya gotta tell him, tell him you're feeling confused, getting mixed messages, write to him if you can't talk with him.
I don't think he's giving you messages, I think he's having a hard time. He's just not in his stride. Try to cut him some slack, I think.
You see, Dinah, you know what you know, right? You know he cares about you, wants to continue to be your T, wants the very best for you. You know he'll be honest with you always. You know those things. You can count on those things. Try not to let the sneaky doubting voice in. Trust in the relationship you have developed over the years, trust the T you know so well. And trust that, as you have done before, the two of you will work it through.
((Dinah))
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on October 5, 2005, at 11:17:37
In reply to Being in therapy is too much like being in love, posted by Dinah on October 5, 2005, at 6:50:13
THis is about the psych aspect of Katrina from Medscape psychiatry
Posted by JenStar on October 5, 2005, at 15:18:40
In reply to Being in therapy is too much like being in love, posted by Dinah on October 5, 2005, at 6:50:13
hi Dinah,
I'm glad to hear that your T doesn't want to lose you. Maybe he only reacted testily b/c he thought YOU wanted to completely "move on"?I really do think he MUST be bonded to you in a strong fashion, whether you call it love or respect or familiarity...but after so many years, he MUST have a bond with you, and it hurts him to break it as well. I know that the typical therapist/patient relationship is not supposed to resemble friendship. But I can't imagine interacting with ANYONE for so many years and NOT coming to genuinely like them, not only as a client but as a person. This must be difficult for him, too. Probably more difficult for you!!!! of course!!!
I know it's awful not to have a set schedule of when you can see him...you're reliant on his various schedule, and it will be hard. But it's so heartening to know that he WANTS to fit you into his life, even if it means going out of his way.
Take care!
JenStar
Posted by gardenergirl on October 5, 2005, at 16:15:02
In reply to Re: Being in therapy is too much like being in love » Dinah, posted by JenStar on October 5, 2005, at 15:18:40
Hi Dinah,
I'm sorry you came away from your latest communication with your T as if you did something wrong. I noted that you wrote that HE "read into" your words. That's HIS issues comming out. It sounds like he's not entirely clear about his own feelings, personal and professional, about what Katrina has done to your relationship. I think he would agree that seeing someone else when he's not available is a good thing. His response, though, about maybe you not continuing with him at all sounded petulant, at least from reading it via your words. I suspect he's conflicted about wanting things to return to "normal" as much as possible and realizing that things will never be just like that again. You know, from the very first, he mentioned he wanted to keep seeing you in order to have some sense of normalcy. I can understand that, but that's not the reason a T should keep seeing a client.I'm not saying don't see him at all. And I'm not trying to disparage him. I just hear a lot of his own stuff coming out in your communications together. That's probably due to the depth and history of your relationship. I doubt he'd let his boundaries drop so much with his other clients. But it puts more burden on you, when he should be helping you clarify what's best for you in making therapy plans.
sigh
I hope that wasn't too rambling.
Take care,
gg
Posted by Annierose on October 5, 2005, at 16:49:15
In reply to Re: Being in therapy is too much like being in lov, posted by Dinah on October 5, 2005, at 9:14:50
Okay, here's the $64,000 question ....
Why do you want to avoid talking about your feelings in regards to T1 to T2?
I can see your logic in talking about stuff with a female T that you are otherwise uncomfortable with, but it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.
My situation no way compares with yours, but when I quit therapy mid-session, and my husband left me a month afterwards, I did seek professional help with a new T. And I do think I spent more time grieving the loss of my T (self-inflicted mind you) than the loss of my marriage (only 17 months of a marriage vs. relationship with T was 5 years). I did find it helpful. And I don't think she made me feel silly.
Anyway, just my 2 cents. And I'm glad you will see her tomorrow.
Posted by fairywings on October 5, 2005, at 17:23:31
In reply to Being in therapy is too much like being in love, posted by Dinah on October 5, 2005, at 6:50:13
I'm sorry this feels so bad Dinah. I agree with ShortE, I think it would be good to tell him, maybe send him your post, you said it all so well. It does sound like he's having trouble with his own feelings, and that's coming through. I wouldn't want to give up after all these years, that's understandable, but what a burden on you physically - the drive, and emotionally - all the pain.
(((hugs)))
fw
Posted by Tamar on October 5, 2005, at 18:23:18
In reply to Being in therapy is too much like being in love, posted by Dinah on October 5, 2005, at 6:50:13
Hey Dinah,
Well, for me therapy was exactly like being in love. And yes, sometimes it sucks.
I’m interested in your therapist’s replies. Of course, I don’t know what you wrote. But when he said
> "I wonder why you assume our therapy will NOT continue on some level." Then he continued on about changes in all relationships over time.
It seems to me that he is committed to the relationship, even though he acknowledges that there are going to be some changes, at least for now. Even though he sounds a bit testy, he clearly wants to continue doing therapy with you. Maybe he’s hoping you’ll understand that he’s considering you, even though he’s not able to offer you what you want at the moment.
And when he said about the Huntsville idea:
> "So if it is not working for you to have me as your therapist, then I have to respect that. But I definitely hope that is not the case."
Again, perhaps it’s not a question of his thinking you believe he’s willing to lose you as a client. I think it’s about how *he* feels. It sounds to me as if *he* doesn’t want to lose *you* as a client. The circumstances are so unusual, it’s almost inevitable that he’s letting his feelings into the situation more than he normally would.> Sigh. Please don't say that he's trying to help me move on without terminating me. First of all, it's not at all true in the context of everything else he's said to me in the last week and the tone of the remarks (which were more defensive and testy than prodding). I really don't want to go into what those things he said were. They weren't romantic or sexual or anything to be reported over. But they were self revelatory.
I don’t think he’s trying to help you move on. On the contrary, I think he’s trying to keep hold of you. That may be partly his own feeling that he wants to continue the relationship, and partly his belief that you’re not ready to move on. Yeah, it *is* like being in love.
> I feel like I'm doing everything wrong.
I’m sure you’re not doing everything wrong. I think your ‘fighting to relationship’ is a harder struggle than it ever has been.
> I'm desperate for him to write back and tell me I didn't.
>
> It's too much like being in love. :((((((There are some good things about being in love, especially if the other person loves you too. And of course I know you’re not in love with your therapist, but he does love you and I believe he wants to find ways to continue working with you (even though they’re really not ideal for you). I’m sorry it’s so hard.
Tamar
Posted by orchid on October 5, 2005, at 19:10:12
In reply to Being in therapy is too much like being in love, posted by Dinah on October 5, 2005, at 6:50:13
Hi Dinah
I really don't have much to add to what others have already said.I know it is extremely tough to let go of a person after 10 years. IT is EXTREMELY hard. But I think your T is aware of this, and is trying to be there for you as long as you need him to be. I don't think he wants you to move on. It only seems like he acknowledges the limitation of doing distant therapy, and is being open about it with you, but at the same time, wants you to know that he will be there for you. At the same time, he needs to respect his professional boundaries, and has to give you the right to move on if you want it.
But I do think he will definitely keep in touch with you quite frequently. And though it may not be as much as you want, it will definitely be a good amount of contact.
I hope you feel a little better soon.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2005, at 20:36:08
In reply to Re: Oops again. I know that's Annierose. (nm), posted by Dinah on October 5, 2005, at 9:16:23
oh yes indeed it is...
i agree with gg.
katrina has been hard all round...
and it did sound
it did sound a bit to me
like his boundaries came down a bit
with the stress of it all
(which is understandable because he is a person too
but really very hard from a therapy pov)
like how you said before that you thought you were coping with the situation better than he was
and so...
maybe he hasn't really been in the best place to put you first
because he has his own stuff going on now...and it sucks
it really sucks very badly
that things change
(sometimes)but i really do think
that you need to look out to you
and i was a bit (okay a lot) confused
about what you were saying before about him NOT wanting you to start seeing someone else...
and i was thinking that his reasons for that sound more like they are about HIM than YOU.
and i guess its hard...
because it must be so very flattering indeed to have someone so very wonderful as yourself be so very devoted to him
and despite his protestations about dependent women...
there is a security, feelings of security in the face of such devotion
and when times turn to sh*t
when something like katrina hits
then security becomes a very significant thing indeed
and it sounds like he is ambivalent...
and maybe he is trying to test your devotion or something...
and i don't know...but we did talk...
a while ago now...
a fair while ago...
about how you were wondering about whether you might be better off working with someone else
about how YOU had more insights about yourself than HE did (or YOU figured things out more for yourself than HE ever helped facilitate)
about what things would be like if you started working with someone elsebut what always came up
what always got in the way
what always prevented that from being a viable option
was your sense of devotion to himand your concern that if you stopped seeing him then you would lose that sense of connection
and it is those connections that make life worth living
and they are very hard to come by indeed...
and therapists are not like washing machines.but i think...
i really do think...
that yes those connections are very hard to come by
and that yes those connections are what makes life worth living
and that yes therapists are not interchangeable like washing machines.but i also think...
that it is like there are so very many people in the world
and some of them are worlds apart
and even if circumstances threw you together there wouldn't be the possibility of such a connection
but there is a sub-set of that group where such a connection is possible.
circumstances permitting...
circumstances permitting...and about those circumstances...
time is a factor
because we do feel more attached in timelike i have said before about puppies
if we imagine that you are getting a puppy
and you go to have a look at the litter...
and you see them and they are all so cute
and then one strikes you and you say you want that one.and right there, at that point if they say that that one has been promised to someone
then it isn't so very soul destroying that you can't have that one
that you have to pick another.
but lets say that they don't tell you that and you take it home
and then two years later they say there was some kind of a mix up and you have to return that puppy.
then that would hurt much much more because the connection, the bond strengthens so much over time.
and imagine if you had to give it back after 10 years.and i know that we can't form strong bonds with everyone
people are not interchangeable like that
some people just rub us up the wrong way
aren't sensitive enough
whateverbut there is the possibility of those connections...
and i think that the space of possible people
who you could feel such devotion for
may well be bigger than you think
may well be bigger than you thinkand i know that is is early days yet
so very early
but that might just happen with your new t
that might just happen
and some of the issues that you were worried about with your old t (about progress etc)
might not come up in the same way.i don't know...
i hope i'm not hurting...
Posted by fallsfall on October 5, 2005, at 22:25:39
In reply to Re: Being in therapy is too much like being in lov, posted by Dinah on October 5, 2005, at 9:10:23
Your anger at Katrina is so reasonable. You express it so well. Katrina took the things that made your world stable and safe and blew them all apart.
How unfair.
But your anger is justified and reasonable.
(((((Dinah)))))
Posted by JenStar on October 6, 2005, at 0:19:22
In reply to Re: therapy is like being in love » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2005, at 20:36:08
Alex,
I know this post was for Dinah, but I found it very powerful and insightful for ME too, just thinking about life and friendship and relationships. Thanks for writing this. It makes me think about the nature of friends and how proximity is almost more important, sometimes, than other things in common. It made me think about how time DOES have the power to strengthen bonds, and it was interesting to think about the puppy analogy and relate it to friendships...JenStar
JenStar
Posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2005, at 1:01:13
In reply to Re: therapy is like being in love » alexandra_k, posted by JenStar on October 6, 2005, at 0:19:22
Thanks :-)
Yeah, proximity and time...
Those things play a significant role.
I hope this doesn't muddy things
(Because I know some people have some deeply held beliefs about romantic love and soul mates)
But I think ALL relationships are like that too...And there are so very many people in the world
And within that set there is a sub-set of the people who you could potentially have an intimate relationship with
And within that set there is a sub-set of the people who you could potentially have happy and fulfilling and lasting intimate relationships with
And proximity and circumstances and time
Play the most significant role.I don't believe that each person has one and only one soul mate out there...
There are lots of possible people
Who things could work out really well with
Circumstances permitting.And I guess thats why I don't think that one should be prepared to sacrifice everything for love
Because circumstances can conspire against you sometimes
Like, for example, when people think their t is their soul mate or something like that.
Maybe... In a different context.
But given the situation is what it is it is inappropriate
(And circumstances conspire against you)
But it is not the end of the world
Because there are other people
Other possibilities
Where circumstances are not against you
And proximity and time is all that is needed.But if you don't like this please ignore it...
Posted by Dinah on October 6, 2005, at 7:10:31
In reply to Re: Being in therapy is too much like being in love, posted by gardenergirl on October 5, 2005, at 16:15:02
And it's unfortunately one that I share. And information I was trying very hard not to convey. I think like so many twisted structures I pass everyday, Katrina also affected the therapeutic frame. I hope not beyond repair.
We've been through so much in the way of fighting to relationship that I hope this is just one more step on the journey. The biggest step maybe. But... as I told him even before this latest job prospect came up, I think I've lost faith that the therapeutic relationship can weather this particular storm. And faith is so essential to therapy.
And yet I can't bear to think in those terms. I know most people here remember my plan. I'm trying to survive by seeing this other therapist, but that isn't really paying off yet. I know, give it time. And I'm trying to distract myself by hurling myself into the idea of moving. And there is a lot to recommend itself in that. This area will take years to regain any semblance of normality. Yet I think it may just be a diversion, a distraction, the way I often obsess about something when I'm depressed. One day it will lift as if it were never even there.
For better or worse (and it will be worse if I lose my therapist) this is my home. I have roots here, and I've always liked roots. There's a book written about my father's grandfather and his son and the woman he is to marry. All set here. My son's school is here, and I can't imagine a better one for him.
For those of you who expressed that my therapist is trying his best to attend to my needs while doing what he needs to do, I do know that. That's one of the things that makes me feel cared for. I swing between being appreciative of that, and being angry. And I probably post more when I'm angry. And see, that's why the slipping of my therapist's usual iron clad boundaries seems somewhat therapeutic right now, in spite of the extra burden it places on me. I do have lots of burdens right now, but it's even more vital to me that I feel cared for at this moment than that I have no extra ones.
I don't know. This just s*cks. I'm not sleeping very well, which probably doesn't help.
I want my therapist/mommy.
I'm still planning to go to Huntsville this weekend. I hope I'm not wasting anyone's time. Perhaps I'll regain my enthusiasm when I see it again.
Posted by Dinah on October 6, 2005, at 7:30:13
In reply to Re: therapy is like being in love » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2005, at 20:36:08
Alexandra, I know what you are saying is wise. And that it probably applies to most people.
But I am not most people.
I've had maybe four or five close friends in my entire life. And I intensely miss every one of them who is not currently in my life, not excepting my third grade best friend. I married my high school sweetheart. I have had the same job since 1980. So has my husband. I've always lived within seven miles of where I lived since I was 4 1/2, and those seven miles consisted of only three houses - a rental house while my parents built their house, and my marital home. I have been in love with five dogs (B, P, J, B, H - yes, five) over the literally dozens I have owned in my life. And all but one of them were love at first sight. And each of those I loved in very very different ways. And as delightful as the others were I can't fall in love with them. I can enjoy them, but I can't fall in love. Not even after two years, or fifteen.
I am more like Phoebe's lobster (a Friends reference) than like the person you envision. Maybe if I saw a dozen or so therapists for long periods of time, there would be one who I attached to. But that's hardly feasible.
That's just who I am. I suppose I could work on it in therapy, but I like who I am in that regard, and don't wish to change it, even if it causes me pain.
Posted by ClearSkies on October 6, 2005, at 11:45:14
In reply to There seems to be a consensus, posted by Dinah on October 6, 2005, at 7:10:31
Dinah - just want you to know I'm thinking of you. Worrying about you too (you mean you can't feel it from there?). I have envied your close relationship with your therapist - your real one as you refer to him. It must be heart wrenching to have this threatened along with everything else you are dealing with every day. I have been ejected from where I lived (when I was unexpectedly deported from England after 7 years living there). It was such a painful time, and I know that I just kind of did one thing after another, trying not to anticipate where I was going to end up eventually. That helped me at the time. Not being able to project all the "what ifs" forced me to live moment to moment and I think it saved me from being hurt even more.
My words read empty. Just trying to make a connection, let you know that having to abandon a life and a place can lead to better things. It has for me.
ClearSkies
Posted by Tamar on October 6, 2005, at 16:37:38
In reply to Re: therapy is like being in love » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on October 6, 2005, at 7:30:13
Funny how a reference or a turn of phrase can make such clear connections. You're so good at that! I can see Phoebe's hands doing the lobster claws...
So he's your therapist/lobster. And the cool thing about the lobsters is that it's mutual. I guess you're a therapee/lobster to him as well.
I know it's causing you extra stress. But I'm so glad you're seeing the other woman therapist for the time being because being apart from him sucks so much.
Posted by Annierose on October 6, 2005, at 17:01:05
In reply to He's your lobster! » Dinah, posted by Tamar on October 6, 2005, at 16:37:38
I couldn't believe it. Not even 5 minutes into our session today she says, "Therapy is a glorious love affair ...." She went on to explain that little girls are totally in love with their mothers, they are their world. But my mother wasn't able to receive or give love (or feel much emotion at all), so somewhere along the road I figured the problem (i.e. the rejection) must be me. "So if we take our relationship and your feelings towards me, I can understand where these longing feelings come from." (Something like that).
I find it amazing how everything usually makes sense while I'm there, but then I can't repeat it back. Oh well.
It was reassuring from a T's perspective, they understand it does feel like a love affair. And it can be painful for the client. She said, "My undivided attention feels so uncomfortable for you. You are not able to soak it up and enjoy it, because you keep waiting for me to take it away."
But Dinah, Katrina has taken the regular visits away from you. I do understand how painful that is for you, now more than ever.
Posted by Dinah on October 6, 2005, at 18:54:40
In reply to Re: There seems to be a consensus » Dinah, posted by ClearSkies on October 6, 2005, at 11:45:14
You made me smile. That's my therapist's mantra. One day at a time, don't look at the big picture. Just concentrate on this moment.
Obviously he doesn't live it (lol), but that's been his philosophy.
I missed him so much today. I miss him less when I'm not in therapy.
Thanks Clear Skies. It means a lot.
Posted by Dinah on October 6, 2005, at 18:56:07
In reply to He's your lobster! » Dinah, posted by Tamar on October 6, 2005, at 16:37:38
I love that you got that!!!
One of my favorite things about my husband is that we grew up with and enjoy a lot of the same shows, and speak in "TV" a lot. It's a way to convey an awful lot in a very few words. :)
Posted by Dinah on October 6, 2005, at 18:58:51
In reply to Re:My T stole this thread idea!, posted by Annierose on October 6, 2005, at 17:01:05
:)
What a perceptive therapist you have!!!
And little girls are in love with their daddies too, so that works as well - even though I always think of my therapist as a mommy figure. But I was describing my father to my now former new therapist today and I realized that physically my therapist is an awful lot like my daddy appeared to me when I was little.
Except that he's laid back and slow talking instead of brooding and intense like Daddy was.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 7, 2005, at 17:10:37
In reply to Re: therapy is like being in love » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on October 6, 2005, at 7:30:13
> I've had maybe four or five close friends in my entire life.
well... thats a lot more than some people get.
> I have been in love with five dogs (B, P, J, B, H - yes, five) over the literally dozens I have owned in my life.
and once again... thats more than some people get.
i think i do hear what you are saying...
but if you consider the litter...
the 'love at first sight' thing...
about what would have happened if that one was promised to someone else and you had to pick again...
i'm not saying that you could have felt that way about any of them in the litter
but maybe a couple of them
maybe a coupleand of course that is something that nobody can ever know...
> That's just who I am.
I'm not sure that that is who you are...
But it is clear that that is the way you see yourself.
And maybe it is seeing yourself that way that brings you a lot of pain
(especially when you worry that if you lose something you have become attached to whether you will ever be able to feel that for another being)>I suppose I could work on it in therapy, but I like who I am in that regard, and don't wish to change it, even if it causes me pain.
It is just that seeing yourself that way seems to be causing you pain too.
And...
About things like this I don't think there is a fact of the matter.
Because if you tell yourself 'I will never be able to become attached to you' over and over again then you will make it true as a matter of self-fulfilling prophecy.
But if you are open to the possibility...
It is more likely to be able to happen.I know that even the people we feel connections for aren't interchangeable. And that that probably goes for dogs too.
But I guess there are two things going on...
The attachment...
The sense of connection
And the particular person / being who you feel that for.And nobody else can ever replace that person
(they aren't like washing machines)
But you can feel that sense of connection again...
But so much easier if you can be open to it...
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2005, at 9:49:45
In reply to Re: therapy is like being in love » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on October 7, 2005, at 17:10:37
What I am reading in your post is that you are saying that I am mistaken in my internal experience of my own feelings. Something that only I can know, except to the extent that I can adequately convey it in words to others.
I'm going to try to reread it as saying that it might be helpful for me to have higher expectations about the likelihood of finding another therapist to bond with, since higher expectations increase the likelihood of success for many people. Although that's never actually been my experience.
I never said I'd never find another therapist I could attach to. I figure if I spent significant time with 25 therapists, I'd intensely dislike 12, feel tepid about 6, like and admire (but not attach to) 6, and maybe find 1 to attach to enough to replace Risperdal. After a few years.
And long term therapists aren't like puppies. They're more like husbands. You can't just pick a guy and grow to enjoy having him as a husband.
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