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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by crushedout on June 23, 2005, at 21:51:36
I know I haven't posted much lately. It's actually been really hard for me to read Babble since I left my old T (end of last Oct.) because I feel so envious and sad about everyone's relationships with their Ts, which I no longer have. I don't have strong feelings about my current T. She's very kind, but I don't think about her much outside of therapy, and I'm certainly not in love with her by any stretch. Don't get me wrong: I'm hugely relieved about this. I certainly did not want to jump out of that frying pan straight into a fire. But I wish there was more of a middle ground.I don't feel like we make much progress. It often seems like we're going in circles: I tell her the same stuff over and over and she asks the same questions over and over. I wonder if she has a poor memory, which is something I have trouble tolerating in anyone, but especially in a T. She takes tons of notes; maybe she needs to read them. But I would never tell her this stuff. I'm afraid of jeopardizing what connection we have. They're people, you know, and if I tell her she basically sucks at her job, there's a good chance it will make her defensive and like me less. I can't afford that right now.
The other thing that bothers me about her is that whenever she starts to talk, she kind of rambles and I end up having no idea what she's saying. Then at the end, she asks me if whatever she was saying rings true, and I look at her with a furrowed brow and kind of shrug. Today I actually said, "To tell you the truth, I couldn't follow a word of what you just said, and I was trying really hard." She actually is amazingly undefensive. I've said critical things in the past and she's taken them really well, so maybe I could trust her. But I really don't want to push my luck.
I should be clear: there are times when I think I'm sorting out stuff and it's useful. Sometimes I think that sort of happens *despite* her, though, not because of her. Like when she just asks simple questions and kind of stays out of my way, lets me think out loud. Maybe that's the best we can hope for. Maybe if she were more brilliant and insightful, I'd fall madly in love again and be back in that awful place of wanting something desperately that I can never have. So this is actually better than having a brilliant therapist.
The truth is that I just can't bear the thought of leaving her and starting over with someone new at this point. I just can't do it. I can't. :-(
Posted by Dinah on June 23, 2005, at 22:19:49
In reply to Very frustrated with therapy, posted by crushedout on June 23, 2005, at 21:51:36
It seems like a lot of people are trying to avoid intense feelings for their therapists right now, and I can sort of understand that. Whenever you open your heart and soul to someone, you risk pain and loss. It's true with friendships, and love, and here on Babble. Even with pets. Part of me thinks it's foolish to give anyone the power to hurt me. Part of me thinks life isn't worth living without at least striving for the rewards that only come accompanied by risks.
But I must confess to being a bit taken aback at people being willing and eager to take on therapists that they think are abrasive or incompetent for the purpose of avoiding strong positive feelings. (or for any other reason I guess).
That being said, I think my therapist is an incompetent boob sometimes, from some parts of me. I hear of therapists with great insights, and I get frustrated with him. But... He has many fine and useful qualities. And some very unique strengths. He's got some weaknesses too, and sometimes I get hung up on those and lose sight of the big picture. I'm not sure I could stay with him if there were not very strong positives to balance the negatives and tip the big picture to an overall plus.
Does she have any strengths that you're not focusing on right now?
Posted by Jazzed on June 23, 2005, at 22:22:51
In reply to Very frustrated with therapy, posted by crushedout on June 23, 2005, at 21:51:36
I know you don't want to jeopardize your relationship with your current T, BUT you are paying her to be, if not brilliant, at least insightful. I don't think it would hurt to tell her you feel like you're going in circles, and covering the same material at each session. Sounds like she's okay with hearing the truth from you. Maybe she's so busy writing notes, she's not really listening?
I can hear that you don't want to fall in love again and get hurt, I can sure understand that! But, I think if we're paying for therapy, then we should get what we're paying for. Would you be willing to take a risk and try another T? Or, at least take a risk and tell this T how you feel and see how if it helps?
I hope it gets better for you!
Jazzy
Posted by crushedout on June 23, 2005, at 22:30:46
In reply to Re: Very frustrated with therapy » crushedout, posted by Jazzed on June 23, 2005, at 22:22:51
I definitely can't try another T. I just spent eight months getting this one up to speed. By the time I get the next one up to speed, my insurance will have run out and I'll have to quit. Plus, I can't tell for sure if she's bad. That's just not an option for me. It's almost unthinkable. I'd rather just quit therapy altogether.Argh. I'm so frustrated and upset.
Posted by crushedout on June 23, 2005, at 22:33:07
In reply to Re: Very frustrated with therapy » crushedout, posted by Jazzed on June 23, 2005, at 22:22:51
I do think I could talk to her a little bit about my frustration. But I actually already have and it didn't do any good. And I definitely can't be as honest with her as I'm being with you guys. Dinah, did you ever tell your T you thought sometimes that he was an incompetent boob? I just can't jeopardize what little we might ahve built at this point. I can't.
Posted by crushedout on June 23, 2005, at 22:33:41
In reply to Re: Very frustrated with therapy » crushedout, posted by Dinah on June 23, 2005, at 22:19:49
I'm glad you wrote, Dinah. I was really hoping you would because I thought you would be able to understand, because, yeah, you've expressed frustration and disappointment with your T before.
I think she probably does have some strengths that I'm not focusing on at this moment. And that's exactly the right question. I should probably try to think of what they are. Getting out of my way when she needs to may well be one of her best strengths, but I bet there are others.....Hmm.
I guess it's just hard to know sometimes how much we should expect from our Ts. I know we can't expect perfection, but how far away from perfection is too far? It's really hard to know.
Posted by crushedout on June 23, 2005, at 22:37:02
In reply to Re: Very frustrated with therapy » crushedout, posted by Dinah on June 23, 2005, at 22:19:49
I wouldn't stay with her if I truly was convinced she was *incompetent* simply because I'm safe from falling in love. I'm just saying, that's one benefit of her not being brilliant. I mean, if I wanted a better therapist with bad boundaries, I would have just stayed with my old T.I could do a lot worse, I guess that's what I'm trying to say. :-[
Posted by Jazzed on June 23, 2005, at 22:39:18
In reply to Re: Very frustrated with therapy » crushedout, posted by Dinah on June 23, 2005, at 22:19:49
> But I must confess to being a bit taken aback at people being willing and eager to take on therapists that they think are abrasive or incompetent for the purpose of avoiding strong positive feelings. (or for any other reason I guess).
>Moi?! Am I one of the ones? LOL
I thought when I went to the first session with the new T (and then when you read what I just posted, you might think "what the heck?") I came out of there mad as heck, and thinking the guy was very abrasive (in his case not incompetent though, or he wouldn't be in this office, I am sure.) But, I think for me, there's a part of me that needs to get mad and be able to confront someone, and someone that's not going to coddle me too much. I have a terrible time with confrontation, and when I told him how I felt after the first session, he didn't hit me or anything! LOL He didn't run, he didn't get mad, he apologized, and I felt better, like there was definite potential for a relationship.
I can see from talking to him that he will have a very soft, reassuring side. I think I will be able to open up to him and trust him, and he makes me think a LOT about the things he says, which is unusal for me because I very quickly forget what ppl say to me. But he will also be tough as nails, and try to light a fire under my *ss! I need that from someone. He sees that I have dissatisfaction in my life, and he wants to know what the heck I'm going to do about it.
If I had a T that I felt too strongly about, for me it goes back to the fear of men. I would be too anxious, would be worried about what they thought of me, and might not be willing to fully open up. With someone like this guy, I don't really care too terribly much what he thinks of me, and I think opening up will be a breeze. My p-doc says he's smart, and while that's not a ringing endorsement, I have to trust that he'll do a great job for me.
Just a different take on it.
Jazzy
Posted by daisym on June 24, 2005, at 0:13:21
In reply to Very frustrated with therapy, posted by crushedout on June 23, 2005, at 21:51:36
Hey crushed, nice to see you. I'm sorry you are so frustrated.
I think one of the important things about therapy is that we have carved out space to talk about things and think things through outloud. Being encouraged and allowed to be self-reflective in this space allows for our own insights into what and why we do things. Perhaps your therapist is providing this space, and providing some quiet strength and support for you to look into yourself.
I too complain about going over and over the same stuff. This is when I usually get the "therapy is like a spiral" speech. He tells me we go over and over stuff to look at it in new ways and to understand things in different lights. He says everytime I tell him the story he hears it new, he gets something else out of it. And he does ask the same questions a lot, but I think this is his training, those standard questions that slow me down and make me think.
The most frustrating thing about therapy, for me, is that he doesn't have the answers. He tells me his crystal ball is broken and his magic wand is in the shop. I want to get from point A to point B and I want a map and land marks. He wants to analyze my choice of transportation!
I guess you have to ask yourself what your goals are and if you feel better or worse. You sound better. I also think that maybe (totally guessing here) that you must still be so gun-shy about building a deep connection with her. Perhaps this is getting in the way a little bit.
My favorite way to handle people who forget things is to say, "Like I told you before, I blah, blah, blah..." I think you were brave to tell her you didn't follow her today. I hope she rephrased things for you.
Keep working on it. It will come together. I like Dinah's suggestion about focusing on her strengths. Maybe you could actually ask her what she things her strongest asset as a therapist is. It might give you insight to why she does certain things a certain way. Equally, you could ask her what she thinks her weakness is. See if she is self-aware. It is a kind way of opening a conversation to your frustrations.
Good luck!
Posted by Jazzed on June 24, 2005, at 7:21:26
In reply to Re: Very frustrated with therapy » crushedout, posted by daisym on June 24, 2005, at 0:13:21
Daisy, I love the way you put things!
>
> The most frustrating thing about therapy, for me, is that he doesn't have the answers. He tells me his crystal ball is broken and his magic wand is in the shop. I want to get from point A to point B and I want a map and land marks. He wants to analyze my choice of transportation!LOL, this is such a cool way to put it - for both your T and you, but I understand what you mean. I want plenty of time to spill and be fixed, with an instruction manual in case it comes up again.
>
>
> I think you were brave to tell her you didn't follow her today. I hope she rephrased things for you.I agree, sounds like it was a big step for you crushed. I guess every time you put yourself out there like that it might get easier.
Posted by Dinah on June 24, 2005, at 7:22:22
In reply to Re: Very frustrated with therapy » Dinah, posted by crushedout on June 23, 2005, at 22:33:41
I hope you know I wasn't being disrespectful.
It's just that I see it as a growing trend - allowing fear of dependence to guide treatment decisions - and I wonder how much Babble is a factor. But of course you have your own reasons to fear feeling too strongly for a therapist, and of course that feeling too strongly can also guide treatment decisions.
I think that spending some time evaluating what she does offer, and if what she offers is what you need right now (not even "want" so much, but "need"), is a wise decision.
It's rotten to start over with another therapist, but it's not so good to wasted time or money on one who isn't what you need to help you in your recovery.
I'm feeling so much better now than I used to. I'm finding that I'm more resilient and, for the most part, more able to put emotional excesses on my part in context of past experiences.
I just would like everyone to experience the same feeling that they are indeed accomplishing something. But on the other hand, it did take me ten years, and counting. :)
Posted by Dinah on June 24, 2005, at 7:25:20
In reply to Re: Very frustrated with therapy » Jazzed, posted by crushedout on June 23, 2005, at 22:33:07
I don't think I ever actually used the word "boob". Men inexplicably don't like that. ;) I'm not sure I ever out and out said "incompetent" either.
But I've told him that I didn't know if he had the knowledge and experience to help me. (As recently as this month.) That sort of general comment. And I make lots of specific comments. For example, I tell him that he's lousy on the phone.
Posted by happyflower on June 24, 2005, at 7:30:43
In reply to Re: Very frustrated with therapy » crushedout, posted by daisym on June 24, 2005, at 0:13:21
HI! Could you maybe bring up to her that you feel she is not focused on you, that she seems to repeat herself and it is frusterating you ? She seems to be open.
I think it is commom for clients to put our T's on a pedestal which makes it tough for them to live up to our standards. My T is always checking this with me, he doesn't want me to think he is better than me, he want me to feel empowered to solve my problems myself but with his guidance. I think sometime we expect too much from them. Sometimes I think he can read my emotions, but he has pointed out to me that if I don't tell him how I feel, he doesn't always know, he doesn't have ESP. lol Let us know how it goes, when is your next appointment?
Posted by Tamar on June 24, 2005, at 8:38:30
In reply to Very frustrated with therapy, posted by crushedout on June 23, 2005, at 21:51:36
Gosh, that sounds extremely frustrating.
One thing occurred to me... do you think it might go better if she made fewer notes? I know all Ts are different; my therapist never made notes during the session (I assume he made notes afterwards). And I would have found it very distracting; I would have felt like I was dictating to him or something. If someone is making lots of notes, you don't have their full attention and you don't have as much eye contact. Plus, if you're going around in circles you're probably repeating stuff she already has in her notes.
If you think that would help, maybe you can persuade her to put her notebook down for a session and see how it goes.
Posted by crushedout on June 24, 2005, at 10:06:10
In reply to Re: Very frustrated with therapy » crushedout, posted by daisym on June 24, 2005, at 0:13:21
Daisy, those are really good suggestions. I think I will ask her those things.
Posted by crushedout on June 24, 2005, at 10:08:14
In reply to Re: Very frustrated with therapy » crushedout, posted by Dinah on June 24, 2005, at 7:25:20
> But I've told him that I didn't know if he had the knowledge and experience to help me. (As recently as this month.)Do you remember how he reacted to your telling him this?
Posted by crushedout on June 24, 2005, at 12:23:34
In reply to Re: Very frustrated with therapy, posted by happyflower on June 24, 2005, at 7:30:43
Hi Happyflower,I kind of have brought up my frustration and also have indicated annoyance at being asked the same questions over and over, but I don't think she can help it. I've always kind of wondered how therapists can remember so many details of so many people's lives. I guess some of them are better at it than others.
I don't feel like she isn't focused on me, thankfully. She never seems distracted. She seems to really be trying also. That's what makes it so hard to criticize her. It feels hurtful.
I think you're right that sometimes we expect too much from them. On the other hand, maybe we get to expect a lot. My friend just started seeing a therapist a few weeks ago and he's already fallen asleep on her twice. She makes excuses for him. I would have fired his *ss on the spot. That's crazy.
Anyway, my next appt. is on Monday. I guess I'll try to bring some of this stuff up with her then. At least I'm thinking of mentioning my thinking about going to see someone else and how hard that would be, such that it seems impossible. I don't know if I'll actually have the guts to do that. I really like Daisy's idea, though, of asking *her* what she sees as her strengths and weaknesses. I definitely want to try that. This seems important to address, even if I need to do it tactfully.
> HI! Could you maybe bring up to her that you feel she is not focused on you, that she seems to repeat herself and it is frusterating you ? She seems to be open.
> I think it is commom for clients to put our T's on a pedestal which makes it tough for them to live up to our standards. My T is always checking this with me, he doesn't want me to think he is better than me, he want me to feel empowered to solve my problems myself but with his guidance. I think sometime we expect too much from them. Sometimes I think he can read my emotions, but he has pointed out to me that if I don't tell him how I feel, he doesn't always know, he doesn't have ESP. lol Let us know how it goes, when is your next appointment?
Posted by happyflower on June 24, 2005, at 12:52:19
In reply to Re: Very frustrated with therapy » happyflower, posted by crushedout on June 24, 2005, at 12:23:34
>
> Hi Crush! :)> >
> I don't feel like she isn't focused on me, thankfully. She never seems distracted. She seems to really be trying also. That's what makes it so hard to criticize her. It feels hurtful.
>
If she is trying to focuse on you then, that is a good sign. It is her job to focus on you during your appointment. That is what they are getting paid for, how can they help you if they aren't truely "there". In a way she is like your friends T, asleep , but with her eyes open. You deserve her 100% attention during therapy sessions. But at least she is trying, but she needs to try harder, I think.> Anyway, my next appt. is on Monday. I guess I'll try to bring some of this stuff up with her then. At least I'm thinking of mentioning my thinking about going to see someone else and how hard that would be, such that it seems impossible. I don't know if I'll actually have the guts to do that. I really like Daisy's idea, though, of asking *her* what she sees as her strengths and weaknesses. I definitely want to try that. This seems important to address, even if I need to do it tactfully.
>
Yes, bring it on! I don't know what she thinks about herself is as important as how she is making you feel. There are enough people in the world that ignores us, at least we should be able to count on our T's for our their full attention. Can you imagaine if you were having surgery, and your surgeon was like this? not good, right? lol She can do better for you, bring it to her attention and give her a chance. :)>
>
Posted by crushedout on June 24, 2005, at 16:10:11
In reply to Re: Very frustrated with therapy » crushedout, posted by daisym on June 24, 2005, at 0:13:21
It's hard for me to respond adequately to everyone's posts from work, but I want to try:
> I think one of the important things about therapy is that we have carved out space to talk about things and think things through outloud. Being encouraged and allowed to be self-reflective in this space allows for our own insights into what and why we do things. Perhaps your therapist is providing this space, and providing some quiet strength and support for you to look into yourself.
Yes, I think she does this, and sometimes does it very well. It's when she tries to make an observation that we usually get messed up.
> The most frustrating thing about therapy, for me, is that he doesn't have the answers. He tells me his crystal ball is broken and his magic wand is in the shop. I want to get from point A to point B and I want a map and land marks. He wants to analyze my choice of transportation!Totally understand this! I told her something yesterday and she said it was interesting and then I wanted to yell to her, "OK, now work your magic!" I silently cracked myself up with this thought. Almost shared it with her. I think she would have laughed. That's one thing I like about her -- she has a good sense of humor.
> I guess you have to ask yourself what your goals are and if you feel better or worse. You sound better. I also think that maybe (totally guessing here) that you must still be so gun-shy about building a deep connection with her. Perhaps this is getting in the way a little bit.I am better, you're right. I'm not sure if that's because of her, other factors, or both. I did tell her the other day that one thing's for sure: she isn't damaging me in any way, and that's an improvement over the last T. (I guess I have been kind of frank with her about my frustration -- I told her this in the context of telling her I often wasn't sure if therapy with her was helping me at all. And she didn't seem to take this personally, which was a big relief -- and also a huge improvement over my last T who often would take things personally even when they *weren't* personal.)
You also may be right that I'm gun-shy about getting close to another T. I really went through the ringer with that last one. My life is so much calmer now and although sometimes I miss the drama, excitement, intimacy, intensity, I also appreciate the lack of debilitating depression and anguish. I'm sure you all can understand that.
> My favorite way to handle people who forget things is to say, "Like I told you before, I blah, blah, blah..." I think you were brave to tell her you didn't follow her today. I hope she rephrased things for you.Yeah, that's what I do, too. I do it a lot with her. I say, "I think I told you about this before, but anyway..." She did try to rephrase things and I think I understood her better. She really is amazingly undefensive.
> Keep working on it. It will come together. I like Dinah's suggestion about focusing on her strengths. Maybe you could actually ask her what she things her strongest asset as a therapist is. It might give you insight to why she does certain things a certain way. Equally, you could ask her what she thinks her weakness is. See if she is self-aware. It is a kind way of opening a conversation to your frustrations.As I said before, I think these suggestions are brilliant. Thank you Daisy.
Posted by Daisym on June 24, 2005, at 17:58:17
In reply to Re: Very frustrated with therapy » daisym, posted by crushedout on June 24, 2005, at 16:10:11
You are so welcome. It is nice to be helpful occasionally here. Also, selfishly, it seems like you and Rigby surface together and sometimes, Look Down Fish (I think I have the name right). I miss people when they disappear. But I understand it, so no pressure.
I hope you let me know how it goes. I remember how much anguish you went through before and calm definitely seems better, even if just a tad boring. It sounds like you have some good things going on in your life, and that is always nice.
Take care of yourself.
Posted by Dinah on June 24, 2005, at 19:16:14
In reply to Re: Very frustrated with therapy » Dinah, posted by crushedout on June 24, 2005, at 10:08:14
Hmmm... I've gotten pretty fond of him, so my more recent exchanges would have been pretty gentle. I probably asked him if he though a consultation with someone with more experience and education would be helpful. This last time, I think he just answered no, he didn't think it would be necessary.
Before that, I think he got a bit defensive and rattled off why he thought he was qualified. But he didn't terminate me or anything.
Today was one of those sessions where I wonder why on earth I go to therapy. I brought him up to date on real life stuff, and it felt empty. Like reporting. It reminded me why I don't talk too much about day to day stuff.
Posted by crushedout on June 24, 2005, at 22:07:41
In reply to Re: Very frustrated with therapy » crushedout, posted by Dinah on June 24, 2005, at 19:16:14
> Today was one of those sessions where I wonder why on earth I go to therapy. I brought him up to date on real life stuff, and it felt empty. Like reporting. It reminded me why I don't talk too much about day to day stuff.i know that feeling. i don't like it, either.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 27, 2005, at 18:03:57
In reply to Re: Very frustrated with therapy » Dinah, posted by crushedout on June 24, 2005, at 22:07:41
I think you said your next session was Monday?
gg
Posted by crushedout on June 27, 2005, at 18:08:25
In reply to How did today's session go? » crushedout, posted by gardenergirl on June 27, 2005, at 18:03:57
Oh, I wrote about it below. It was kinda cruddy. I'm not sure why. Oh, I might be PMS'ing! I hope that's it!I didn't have the guts to ask her those questions, in part because I was pretty sure she wouldn't answer me anyway. Part of her whole blank slate thing which I'm feeling pretty annoyed with today (although I'm ambivalent -- I also see its usefulness, especially with someone like me who is so prone to intense, painful transference).
I guess I really need to bring it up with her. Thursday? I hope I can.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 27, 2005, at 18:58:30
In reply to Re: How did today's session go? » gardenergirl, posted by crushedout on June 27, 2005, at 18:08:25
I saw your thread and responded there. Thanks.
gg
This is the end of the thread.
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