![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by TofuEmmy on May 29, 2005, at 9:46:12
You are simply wrong about your kids. Your brain is giving you faulty information. Your kids need you now, and into the future.
You are not a burden to your family, you are the core that keeps it together. You belong with them, living along side them. They have unending love for you. In time, you WILL feel it again.
Be gentle with yourself.
emmy
Posted by daisym on May 29, 2005, at 14:10:51
In reply to For Daisy, posted by TofuEmmy on May 29, 2005, at 9:46:12
I don't want to engage in the debate. Because it feels so much like a pity part to me and crying wolf. What I was trying to say, I guess, was that there have been many times in the past when I was absolutely sure that things wouldn't keep going without me -- my kids, my company, etc.
I'm now equally sure on the other side. I'm not saying it would be easy for anyone. But you must understand, there is a huge potential for failure on the horizon and it is simply that I, as a coward, couldn't face their disappointment in me. I'd rather let them hate me for this...
It is too complicated to explain and I'm not a danger to myself right now. I promise. I just am looking for answers that won't come. Sometimes there are no good choices. Leaving it up to God, or the fates, doesn't seem like the answer either. I just keep telling myself that an option will present itself if I work hard enough to make it happen. How many times can you give yourself that pep talk?
One of the hardest parts for me right now is that I've realized that I've added my therapist to the list of people I don't want to let down or disappoint. So I while I know i should talk to him about this worry, I can't.
Which leaves me in my own lonely private hell.
Posted by fallsfall on May 29, 2005, at 15:10:27
In reply to Re: For Daisy » TofuEmmy, posted by daisym on May 29, 2005, at 14:10:51
I know the failure looks intolerable to you. Believe me, I know. But I am (slowly) starting to believe that other people don't see these failures as devistating(ly?) as we do. Look at Martha Stewart - she was sent to jail, but she has come out and is keeping on. Look at Bill Clinton - how he stood through the Monica stuff. And they still have supporters (lots of them). I might say "Gee, Martha and Bill aren't as "good" people as I thought (did I ever think that?) they were." but I would never say "The world would be better off without them". And what they both did was immoral. You haven't done anything immoral. Your difficulties at work are not due to immorality - they are due to external circumstances. Sure you can say "Well, I should have planned better for the external circumstances. Well, we can all always plan better. But even if you "fail" at work, you haven't done anything evil or immoral and people will know that. Sort of like how you came upon your psychological problems honestly, you have come upon your work problems honestly, too.
I honestly believe that you are much harder on yourself than anyone else in the world is. Maybe they have a better idea...
I am sure that their "disappointment" in you will be so much less than your disappointment in yourself. I don't know if I can help you be less disappointed in you, but it might help if you were more realistic about how other people will view you. Particularly those who matter. And isn't it possible that if certain people *were* to be disappointed in you (i.e. your mother?) that that would indicate more of an issue on their part than on yours?
And I don't think it is a choice between disappointment and hate. Your children won't hate you if you kill yourself - they will be *hurt* by you. Somehow, though, "hurt" doesn't capture the essence of how they will feel.
You must talk about this with your therapist. This is not one of those optional things. I don't believe that you "can't" - I think that you "don't want to". This is one of those times when you need to force yourself. I'm glad to hear that you aren't in any immediate danger, and I do believe that is true. But if you don't address this with your therapist there will come a time when you *will* be in immediate danger. I don't want that time to come.
Posted by antigua on May 31, 2005, at 13:50:20
In reply to For Daisy, posted by TofuEmmy on May 29, 2005, at 9:46:12
Please call and share this with your T. It's very important. You do not have to do this alone. Take your T off this list and take advantage of his qualifications to help you get through this. Does this make any sense? Depersonalize it, because he is there to help you and wouldn't want you to be going through this agony on your own.
antigua
Posted by Daisym on May 31, 2005, at 15:07:43
In reply to Re: For Daisy » TofuEmmy, posted by antigua on May 31, 2005, at 13:50:20
Seriously, how do you keep perspective now that you've become attached? In the growing need to be special there is a seed of despair that says now I have to hide all the bad things again. Logic plays no part here. My gut won't listen to my head. I'm working on it, I'm promising myself to bring it up, but each and everytime I fail. This is one of those times I wish he actually did read Babble.
But what you said makes sense. Thanks for the support.
Posted by antigua on May 31, 2005, at 15:50:08
In reply to How? » antigua, posted by Daisym on May 31, 2005, at 15:07:43
Is it important to you to keep the perspective? Do you have a code you can use w/him so that you don't have to say it out loud on the phone? Part of dealing w/the csa for me was finding out that I wasn't so special. I had always used that to hold myself together, that my father loved me best, despite (and because of) what he did. I wanted to know if I was special to my T, too, I didn't want to be just "anybody," so I pushed her away and kept telling her she was only helping me because it was her "job," she didn't really care about me. To her credit, she hung in there.
Letting go of the specialness was very hard for me, but I'm glad it's gone now. Because the fact of the matter was that I was just the body my father took advantage of and ruined for years on end. It was all about him, and his selfish needs and wants, and it had nothing to do w/anything I did or did not do.
Please talk to your T. Tell him about the specialness. He knows exactly what you're talking about and he can help you to see it clearly and to feel so much better. Just lean on him, right now.
I'm sorry if I'm harsh. I don't want you to go through this alone. You don't have to--you don't get an extra badge in heaven for having suffered!
antigua
Posted by daisym on May 31, 2005, at 23:34:16
In reply to Re: How? Trigger*** » Daisym, posted by antigua on May 31, 2005, at 15:50:08
You aren't harsh (just pushy :)!
No, I appreciate what you said. I told him a little today...at the end of course. I must have said something that triggered him to ask about Friday -- we had a bad connection so I cut our check in call very short. He asked me if it was disruptive in some way. I said I didn't want it to be...the logical part of me is trying to be very grounded. He said, "don't be logical, or fair or kind. Just tell me what you were feeling." So I said, "I felt like you weren't really there, you were moving away from me and not taking me with you. I felt alone and abandoned." I rushed on to say that I *knew* he had a life, that I *knew* this was just his job and I *knew* I was just a client and not special. And most of all I know that cell service is cruddy sometimes and this is all ridiculous! I told him that he had moved to the list of people I don't want to disappoint or let down and my feelings were confused and RIDICULOUS! And I said I have no pride left at all now...
He said it wasn't ridiculous at all and that he felt bad too about the call on Friday -- and he knew that sometimes our bond is really fragile and stuff like that disrupts it. But it will happen and we will get through it. He said these feelings felt overwhelming and painful because I've kept myself numb for so long. He said pride has no place in therapy, honesty does.
I told him it WAS ridiculous and juvenile. And very, very painful. And that I didn't need anymore painful things in my life. And that frankly, I was sick of being asked to "get through" all these painful things. And then time was up, I looked at the clock and said, "I have to go."
He asked me to come back tomorrow and keep talking about this. I don't know if I can. I spouted off and now I feel bad. It isn't his fault that I want something from him I can't have. And I refuse to manipulate the situation at all by bringing suicidal feelings into the discussion.
Posted by fallsfall on June 1, 2005, at 10:11:23
In reply to Re: How? Trigger*** » antigua, posted by daisym on May 31, 2005, at 23:34:16
>He asked me to come back tomorrow and keep talking about this. I don't know if I can. I spouted off and now I feel bad. It isn't his fault that I want something from him I can't have. And I refuse to manipulate the situation at all by bringing suicidal feelings into the discussion.
You say "It isn't his fault". Do you think that when you bring these things up that they are painful for him? It sounds like you don't want to bring them up because you are afraid you will hurt him. I believe that he is skilled enough to look objectively at what you say - and to see what it means to you, and to not feel badly if he can't give you things that he can't give you. So I don't think that you will make *him* unhappy by bringing these things up. That said, however, it may make *you* unhappy. But, unfortunately, sometimes we have to do that to make progress.
You are at a very difficult time. Please trust him to help you through this. Try your hardest to get back into this discussion. Bring your post and read it at the beginning so you will have time to work on this.
Have you told him how poorly you are feeling? You need to tell him how close to the edge you are. He needs to know. If you can't tell him, then bring in some journalling, or posts, or emails from friends. He *can* read babble if you print it out for him.
I think that it will not be helpful for you to try to "tough" this out. There is too much going on. He can help you sort it out. I know this is really, really hard. And I know that you are really, really trying. Please keep trying - and let me know if a nosy loudmouth friend can help.
Posted by antigua on June 1, 2005, at 10:55:07
In reply to Re: How? Trigger*** » antigua, posted by daisym on May 31, 2005, at 23:34:16
Hey, I've never been called that before. I think I might like it! Makes me feel powerful in that I'm able to get my point across w/o being too much of a wimp.
Want to come over? It's a beautiful day here and we could sit on the deck getting a little sun therapy. Ice tea, too, because ice cream would melt too quickly. It has to be this week because it's my last week of peace and quiet, meaning the kids will be out of school end of next week!
I would be very nice to you, not pushy at all and you could relax and leave all those demands behind for a little while.
Remember, you are never alone. We are always here with you.
antigua
Posted by Daisym on June 1, 2005, at 15:06:00
In reply to Me, pushy? » daisym, posted by antigua on June 1, 2005, at 10:55:07
*SIGH* It sounds lovely. It is nice here but windy today. At least there is no fog right now.
I sat in my swing for awhile last night. I wanted some alone time to think about things. Problem was that my swing is in the backyard spaced between my boys bedrooms. First one opened his window and talked to me, and then the other stuck his head out and joined the conversation. It was really funny. I can't get them to stay at the table more than 15 minutes but they were chatty from their windows. Go figure...
I'm glad I'm not alone but I must say that I'm starting to worry a little about what my posts sound like -- I don't want to be continually saying, "yes, BUT" -- And I don't want you guys to worry. But somehow it feels necessary to put some of this out here in cyber-space. Maybe it is a safe way not to have to hold it all myself. Maybe it is selfish too, that "please protect me from me" cry that I can't bring myself to utter in real life.
*another sigh*
That deck sounds better and better.
:)
Posted by littleone on June 1, 2005, at 15:59:35
In reply to Re: Me, pushy? » antigua, posted by Daisym on June 1, 2005, at 15:06:00
I think I want to go to antigua's too. Winter's just struck here and it sounds nice there. Maybe you could take your swing over and we'll all take turns.
> I sat in my swing for awhile last night. I wanted some alone time to think about things. Problem was that my swing is in the backyard spaced between my boys bedrooms. First one opened his window and talked to me, and then the other stuck his head out and joined the conversation. It was really funny. I can't get them to stay at the table more than 15 minutes but they were chatty from their windows. Go figure...
I think it's sweet that they want to talk to you like that. You must be doing something right as a mum daisy. Even if they can't always give you what you need, I'm glad you've got your boys.
> I'm glad I'm not alone but I must say that I'm starting to worry a little about what my posts sound like -- I don't want to be continually saying, "yes, BUT" -- And I don't want you guys to worry.I don't think you have to worry about your posts. I love to read every one. I'm sorry I'm not usually able to reply.
I think it's vital that you keep posting your bad thoughts - especially if you haven't been sharing them with your T. It's so important to get them out and break down the secrecy and isolation surrounding them. We won't leave you.
I understand your feelings around saying "yes but...". I guess I believe you won't grow unless you question things. If you don't voice your yes-but's, people don't get a chance to supply an alternative to your yes-but logic. Holding things in has caused a lot of our problems. I hope I made sense then.
Have a swing for me :)
Posted by Daisym on June 1, 2005, at 19:38:23
In reply to Re: Me, pushy? » Daisym, posted by littleone on June 1, 2005, at 15:59:35
I think I like being called "mum" :)
LittleOne you can swing on my swing anytime. We'll have to ask Antigua if you can play too, I'm sure she'll say yes. I'll bring the picnic, you bring the jacks.
I guess it is good that a lot of what I've written here came out today. I think my therapist would be a good dentist -- he seems good at pulling things out. He jumped right in to ask me if I had been thinking about what I said when I left yesterday and I said yes, but I didn't know how to talk about it anymore. So he pushed and I tried and he asked questions and I tried some more and finally he said, "Do you feel like you can't talk to me anymore?"
Wow. Hard question. I was honest and told him that actually it was partly true. And I tried to explain how these different feelings of wanting to be special were getting in the way...how could I be special if I reveal all my mistakes, insecurities and flaws? I don't want to be special by being the worst patient! And I said I felt kind of ungrateful to be upset by a bad phone call, even if we both know that it is more than that.
He looked at me and asked, "Are you mad at me?" And I teared up and said, "no, I'm afraid you're going to get mad at me." He said it was interesting that we both had the same thought about what feeling was in the room, but he assured me that he wouldn't get mad, he hasn't before, so why would i think that? So I told him about being worried about appearing manipulative, etc.
His best question was: "What do you wish you could just dump out into the middle of the room?" I said I wished I could dump out all the dark thoughts and feelings that are trapped inside. But that it was a tiny wish, so it wasn't going to happen. He told me tiny wishes should be granted too...and didn't it make sense that therapy was where you should dump out the dark stuff? I told him this was no place for logic! :)
He didn't laugh, he just softly said, "I think we need to talk about your dad coming to visit this weekend. I think you are scared and I think it would be OK for you to tell me about the fear." I ended up in tears and told him that I didn't want to face this, I didn't want my dad to see what a wreck I am right now and I certainly didn't want to have to deal with my mom, my sister AND my dad all at the same party. And I told him that what was most scary was that the week after next I have to face another huge work thing and I didn't think I could. I didn't think I was up to it. So, I was feeling trapped, cornered again, and I keep landing on only one way out. But I didn't want to tell him this because it seemed premature and maybe I'll do better than I think I will.
He said I need to tell him now so we can plan. That it was OK to really use him for support right now and he said he would feel better if he was talking to me every day for the next week, just so he could keep tabs on what was coming up. I think he was just trying to make it OK for me to call him. I told him that some times calls made it better but sometimes they made things worse.
He said he understood that, and he went back to trying to explain what happened on Friday. I ended up in tears all over again because this is exactly what I don't want him to have to do. I don't want to be handled and I don't want to need explanations for little things out of both our control. I said it just made it crystal clear that I am truly now a pain-in-the-a** client. I left feeling upset, even though he tried to be reassuring that I wasn't, that this was a tough time and that he was worried about me.
I'm sorry this was so long, I didn't start out intending it to get long. I think I journaled, instead of babbled. But I don't want to rewrite it so here it is.
Mostly I just wanted to say thanks for the support and the nudges to talk about this. Keep nudging, OK?
Posted by fallsfall on June 1, 2005, at 20:08:52
In reply to Today -- sorry, long, posted by Daisym on June 1, 2005, at 19:38:23
Good for you, Daisy!! I'm really proud of you. You talked about the hard stuff. I'm glad that he wants to keep in touch with you. This *is* a really hard time for you - allow him to support you.
And allow us to, too. Keep posting and telling us what is going on. We do want to know. The longer, the better. I hope that you can feel not so quite alone in all of this. We are there with you.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 1, 2005, at 21:25:25
In reply to Re: Today -- sorry, long » Daisym, posted by fallsfall on June 1, 2005, at 20:08:52
Wow, that sounds like a hard session. I'm glad he brought up the party. I have to think that is a huge source of anxiety and stress right now.
And I'm glad you keep going and keep talking. Even if you feel you need nudges.
:)
gg
Posted by littleone on June 1, 2005, at 21:47:09
In reply to Today -- sorry, long, posted by Daisym on June 1, 2005, at 19:38:23
> Wow. Hard question. I was honest and told him that actually it was partly true. And I tried to explain how these different feelings of wanting to be special were getting in the way...how could I be special if I reveal all my mistakes, insecurities and flaws? I don't want to be special by being the worst patient!
You could be special by being his most honest and open patient :) And you're already such a sweet and special person, you don't have to be perfect too.
My T has said before that he thinks I'm smart. That I have really good insight. I kind of brushed that away a bit and he said "Do you know how many less-smart people I see every day? Lots!" It kind of made me believe just a little that maybe he does enjoy seeing me sometimes. Maybe. Kind of.
It sounds like you are too. Both smart and good at insights. You have remarkable insight from what I see here. I bet your T thinks that's pretty special.
> He looked at me and asked, "Are you mad at me?" And I teared up and said, "no, I'm afraid you're going to get mad at me." He said it was interesting that we both had the same thought about what feeling was in the room,That is interesting. Did he say any more about it? I don't really understand if it's part of your defense to send off mad-vibes when you feel threatened a certain way.
> His best question was: "What do you wish you could just dump out into the middle of the room?"
I said I wished I could dump out all the dark thoughts and feelings that are trapped inside. But that it was a tiny wish, so it wasn't going to happen. He told me tiny wishes should be granted too...and didn't it make sense that therapy was where you should dump out the dark stuff? I told him this was no place for logic! :)I liked that. Although I must admit my first thought to his question was "last night's dishes, my dirty clothes, the dog's a bit smelly can you take her too?" :)
> He didn't laugh, he just softly said, "I think we need to talk about your dad coming to visit this weekend. I think you are scared and I think it would be OK for you to tell me about the fear." I ended up in tears and told him that I didn't want to face this, I didn't want my dad to see what a wreck I am right now and I certainly didn't want to have to deal with my mom, my sister AND my dad all at the same party.Oh, bad bad bad. Tears are very understandable. I know that part of you will be shocked to even consider this, but could you possibily skip the party? You have so many stressful things on right now, it may be a good place to let up a little.
They may be disappointed if you don't show up, but they'll get over it. The world will keep turning. There will be other parties.
I've had huge guilt and shame and anxiety and bad stuff over not seeing my dad. But seeing him is a lot worse. The threat of seeing him - of knowing he could call to arrange a meeting any time - was a lot worse. I struggle with this a lot. Over what is best for me, over what a good daughter would be doing, over what is expected of me, over a lot of stuff.
> I said it just made it crystal clear that I am truly now a pain-in-the-a** client.No, just a distressed one. He is there to help you daisy. That is what he does best. It's probably part of his reason for living.
Posted by antigua on June 2, 2005, at 7:57:05
In reply to Today -- sorry, long, posted by Daisym on June 1, 2005, at 19:38:23
Geez, are the moons aligned or something? I'm facing a visit w/my mother this weekend in NY. (My father is dead, so like it--or not--I will never have the opportunity to resolve my csa directly w/him). I'm the perfect daughter to my mother; I've never mentioned the abuse to her, and actually I don't think I ever will (never say never though). In the past I would be the perfect daughter and then fall apart after I got him. I don't take it out on myself anymore because I know how damaging that has been and I also understand her better. But it has taken years to get to this point.
I've been thinking of just ditching the trip. It would be so much easier all around (except she'd be furious). Plus, my T is away on vacation for a few weeks! This is a true test.
Good luck with your family, too.
antigua
Posted by daisym on June 2, 2005, at 21:16:49
In reply to Same issue, different parent » Daisym, posted by antigua on June 2, 2005, at 7:57:05
Should I even point out the HUGE freudian slip??
Things with my mother are really complicated too. My sister emailed me that she is coming but she is really scared, she hasn't talked to our dad for 6 months but she thinks she has mostly "forgiven" him. Oh, and she stopped therapy.
So among other things today, I was weepy about it taking me sooooo long and I didn't see how to even begin to think about forgiveness. I wonder sometimes if this work is easier if your parent isn't still here to forgive. My therapist said he doesn't think so. He also said it seems really "premature" for my sister to be forgiving. But sometimes people force these things at termination of therapy. He was careful to say that she may truly have reached this place, but that didn't mean I had to, now or ever. I can't talk to my sister because she doesn't know about my abuse (I'm a lot older); I just know about hers.
Family gatherings make therapy even tougher, don't they? I'm sorry your therapist is gone, mine is leaving at the end of June. I figure I'll hold it together through all of this and then completely go under the week he is gone. Timing, as they say, is everything.
Let me know how you are doing. I'll be thinking of you.
Posted by Daisym on June 8, 2005, at 20:53:47
In reply to Same issue, different parent » Daisym, posted by antigua on June 2, 2005, at 7:57:05
I've been thinking of you a lot. How did things go (or, are they going?) with your mom?
I'm still in the middle of it all and holding my breath.
Posted by antigua on June 13, 2005, at 9:49:57
In reply to How did it Go? » antigua, posted by Daisym on June 8, 2005, at 20:53:47
I'm just now resurfacing. I loved the slip, thanks for pointing it out. Sometimes I do think it is easier for me because my father is dead. I would have a hard time reconciling the father I had when I was younger with the man he was before he died. There was just one simple glance between us that told me he knew that I knew (even though I never faced this until after he died). He had to die before I could even begin to explore it--or at least that's what I've rationalized. My fantasy is that my older father would have apologized if we had discussed it, but I can't ever imagine discussing it with him.
My trip with my mother went very well. While I kept everything inside, I did have moments when I thought I would totally lose it, overcome with emotions and the wish to harm myself, but I "sat" (hate that analogy)with my feelings and let myself feel them without hurting myself.My mother and I never fight, but you know what? Something was different--I felt like she knew and I've never felt that way before. MAybe it was just me being more accepting of her. The only argument we had was over Michael Jackson's guilt but she backed down once she saw I felt strongly about it.
I don't know. Maybe I was different, but something has changed--for the better. She would never take responsibility for allowing the abuse to happen because she always viewed herself as a a victim of his too.
In the old days, I would come home from visiting her and I would self-destruct after having to hold it all together around her. I didn't this time and I'm very proud of myself. I haven't given in to the urge to call my T, but that would be real progress. I do feel very vulnerable now so I'm just trying to take it easy and watch out that I don't slip into the black hole.
best,
antigua
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