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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 32. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Shortelise on May 26, 2005, at 20:27:54
Saw T today.
Asked what he meant when he said if I go back to him after termination, it would be different, and I said it felt like a warning.
He asked in what context it was said. I blanked. I said I didn't know.
So then he started, my verbose T, to explain to me how difficult it is to answer this sort of thing out of context, how it just so happens he remembers the context perfectly, but that to take something like that right out of context and ask, well, it might be very difficult for a person. He was meaning outside of therapy.
It felt horrible. I felt unheard, misunderstood, hurt, criticized. It was awful. I know what he was getting at, (that it won't work well for me in relationships if I use this kind of "you said blah, what did you mean" tactic. Well, I don't, not now, not since I have learned all that I've learned in therapy) and finally I said to him, after he explained, re-exeplained, re-re-explained, etc., that I though he was one person I could come to with such a question and he would help me get to the answer. He said that he can't keep doing that for me, that I need to do that for myself, that he felt I was asking him to do all the work. He said that keeps me "addicted" to the process, and that he has to encourage me to do these things for myself.
BTW, when he said things would be different he meant that by virtue of the fact that time passes and people change, things will be different between us if I don't see him for a year or two and then go back with a problem.
He said I used to be addicted to intensity. Kind Babblers, please hear this: this is the main part of my pain right now. It feels so ugly, so un-nice, so insane frankly, to be "addicted to intensity". He talked about how hard it was to deal with that intenstiy, and how necessary. I feel kind of beaten up.
So the change I've felt in him, despite him saying he is the same, was in fact a change. He is trying to change our dynamic - if that's the right way to put it. He is trying to get me to do for myself what he helped me do these past seven years. SO yes, he is withdrawing from me the things that he considers are keeping me in a sense "addicted" to therapy.
He conceded that yes, in this way he has changed.
So, sometime in the past seven years I overcame an addiction to intensity. I see that, I recognize it, but it feels like a blow, not a relief. To so define something, now, when it's over.
And I know he still cares about me, he told me so, and that withdrawing the nurturing, the kind understanding I have come to count on, is part of that caring. He wants me NOT to be dependant on him, he wants me to be able to take care of myself.
But I tell you how it feels, and this will sound familiar: it feels like a broken promise.
I want to hit him, never go back, throw things at him, bite him --- hurt him.
Please don't criticize *him*, ok? Please? I will want to defend him and I don't feellike going there. It's not about him, it's about me, and I know he's doing the right thing in a perfectly appropriate way. What is hard is how I feel.
Thanks very much for reading this, and for your perspectives. Right now, I just want to die. I won't act on it, but I feel that awful.
ShortE
Posted by pinkeye on May 26, 2005, at 20:43:48
In reply to termination continued - sad, posted by Shortelise on May 26, 2005, at 20:27:54
I also hate it when people change like that. Suddenly they start implying that we are being too dependant. Suddenly they say we need to find strength to go on our own. Suddenly everything is too much - whatever dependancy we have is too much. however needy or less needy we have actually become - is being too needy.
Hello?? We were supposed to let go and depend and share everything and increase the intensity at one point - and suddenly it is all too much?? And he is blaming you for being too intense?? It is a broken promise.
In short - it sucks !!!
Posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 21:19:00
In reply to termination continued - sad, posted by Shortelise on May 26, 2005, at 20:27:54
Ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch.
I'm not going to say anything bad about him.
But ouch.
(((((ShortE)))))
If it helps any, my reaction would be the same. I'd feel so much anger, and want to lash out. I would lash out.
Loss hurts. Loss sucks. There's just no way around that. And you've already lost him in some ways.
I hate that about loss, too.
Loss is so often a series of small losses, and each one hurts like hell. I dunno. Maybe it's supposed to be that way, so that when the ultimate loss comes, it doesn't hurt as bad.
But I hate it.
I don't know if that helps, because I don't have a single soothing word to say.
I have a whole string of words to say, but they'd give Dr. Bob's curse editing program a real workout.
Posted by Daisym on May 26, 2005, at 21:29:39
In reply to termination continued - sad, posted by Shortelise on May 26, 2005, at 20:27:54
Hit your pillow - scream at the wind - throw a tantrum -- do any and all of this. And then throw yourself into your husband's arms and weep. Grieve this huge loss, for that is what it is. Time changes everything, even good things and we must (are forced) to accept it. But we can still rage our way into acceptance.
I know you know it won't hurt forever. That it will be bittersweet with time and you will love who he was and what he meant to you forever. But it is too fresh a wound and hurt to go there yet.
As you hear him label things, are you ashamed of how you used to be? You should be proud to have overcome such a powerful pull. Addictions of any kind are incredibly difficult to deal with. I think sometimes people talk about past things like we won't feel this great horror of the past informing the present and being mortified by it all over again. No one wants to be reminded of their flaws, past or not.
What makes me the most sad is where you say "that withdrawing the nurturing, the kind understanding" is what he is intentionally doing. Wouldn't it be kinder to just end it? How can this type of termination really be best? It feels like it is tearing down everything that was built up. I think I want to go quietly into the night, with memories of loss, not change.
All that said, I know he is doing what he thinks is best for you. And after 7 years, I'm sure he knows you very well. That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt like hell. The pain will pass and life will help numb the hurt. I wish I was there to hold you. Please be kind to yourself.
((((ShortE)))
Posted by littleone on May 26, 2005, at 21:51:19
In reply to termination continued - sad, posted by Shortelise on May 26, 2005, at 20:27:54
Ouch. Your pain really comes through in your post. I know you don't want me to bag your T, so as a compromise, I've just given him a big mental kick in the pants and I won't mention him again. Hope that's okay.
A while ago I had raised with my T that I want him to hold my hand and walk through each exercise with me. That I didn't want to be left to struggle through them by myself.
Now I'll probably get this wrong, but his response was that if that's what I needed to do the exercises, then that's fine, that's what it will take. But that therapy will work faster if I can do them on my own. Because if I need my hand held, it will take time to do the exercises and then more time to learn to do them by myself.
It sounds like your T never gave you that choice. That either through your own needs or his own style you've had to take the two prong approach. Which is not the "wrong" way I might add. But it will involve loss. I wish you didn't need to endure the loss ShortE.
> It felt horrible. I felt unheard, misunderstood, hurt, criticized. It was awful. I know what he was getting at, (that it won't work well for me in relationships if I use this kind of "you said blah, what did you mean" tactic. Well, I don't, not now, not since I have learned all that I've learned in therapy) and finally I said to him, after he explained, re-exeplained, re-re-explained, etc., that I though he was one person I could come to with such a question and he would help me get to the answer. He said that he can't keep doing that for me, that I need to do that for myself, that he felt I was asking him to do all the work. He said that keeps me "addicted" to the process, and that he has to encourage me to do these things for myself.
Double Ouch!
This one confuses me, but then I just don't understand people at all. I would have thought that you *could* still ask him anything you wanted. It is through him that you learn about people. How they feel/think/react/whatever. And that that learning will go on your whole life. Therefore, even if you saw your T in a year's time, you should still be able to ask him to clarify things like that.
The other thing is that I thought the idea of relationships with close people (I'm talking about friends/spouse, not your T) was that you talk more deeply with each other and I imagined part of that would include asking for clarification on what they meant by something. So I don't even really understand why you shouldn't have been allowed to do that.
But like I said, I just don't get people and have failed Relationship 101 my whole life.
> But I tell you how it feels, and this will sound familiar: it feels like a broken promise.
>
> I want to hit him, never go back, throw things at him, bite him --- hurt him.
>
> Thanks very much for reading this, and for your perspectives. Right now, I just want to die. I won't act on it, but I feel that awful.Broken promise - yeah I can see that.
I'm sorry things are so hard for you right now. Will it sound too trite if I say to do something comforting for yourself? What's your comfort food? My brain always has a short circuit when I see that daisy likes to eat cow. I always imagine a huge black and white cow lying on a plate with it's legs in the air and it's tongue hanging out.
Do you have a pet you can play/snuggle with?
Posted by sleepygirl on May 27, 2005, at 0:33:30
In reply to termination continued - sad, posted by Shortelise on May 26, 2005, at 20:27:54
my goodness, I'm sorry you're hurting so much right now. Addicted to intensity huh?, and I think that gave you an ouch. It sometimes sucks to need someone, it makes you so vulnerable. My own intensity in therapy was/is so much about fear and so much about hope. I too have felt sort of 'insane' in acknowlegement of how much I needed therapy/my T. I feel like this is a big crash for you, a real blow to where it hurts and a big disappointment. I hope you'll keep writing about this when you need to. I expect this will be pretty hard for a while, but I hope it will start to ease soon.
Posted by happyflower on May 27, 2005, at 9:39:46
In reply to termination continued - sad, posted by Shortelise on May 26, 2005, at 20:27:54
Shortelise I just wanted to give ya a hug and offer support, but I just can't read all of your post and the replies because I feel like I am going to be in the same situation soon, and it is just too painful to think about. I am scared.(((((Shortelise))))
Posted by pegasus on May 27, 2005, at 10:27:07
In reply to termination continued - sad, posted by Shortelise on May 26, 2005, at 20:27:54
Interesting termination technique. I know for a fact that not all terminations go like this. An approach that I personally think is more helpful is to work on all the issues that the idea of termination brings up, and just be very frank about the loss and grieving, etc. But keeping the nature of the relationship as supportive as ever. It's the attachment theory idea: if we attach to our therapists, then they become a safe home from which we can go out and try new things. And eventually you just need to check in with that safe home less and less often as you grow.
Taking away the sense of a safe home seems like it would cause insecurity and clinging, rather than the independence successful termination requires. The approach of weaning you off of your dependency on him by actually changing the nature of your relationship sounds really painful. Too bad he can't let you continue to see him as a safe home that you just don't need to go back to so often anymore.
Well, anyway, what I mean is that I'm really sorry, and I understand how this would be very painful.
(((ShortE)))
pegasus
Posted by messadivoce on May 27, 2005, at 11:02:43
In reply to termination continued - sad, posted by Shortelise on May 26, 2005, at 20:27:54
Ick ick ick ick ick ick.
I agree with Pegasus. You're already losing someone important to you. You don't need to have the rules changed on you too.
Dear ShortE, it's not *just* about you, it's about the two of you together, trying to make some sense of this termination thing, which never makes NO SENSE at all. None.
I think he's having trouble with termination. I'm sure he'll miss you. A lot. I wish he would tell you that (maybe he did?). I know it wouldn't make it feel better, but perhaps more authentic? As though you are seeing this loss for what it is, instead of contrived notions of what it it "should" be?
ShortE, I am sending you all the strength and love I can. Just keep going, don't be afraid to keep going.
(((((ShortE)))))
Posted by Tamar on May 27, 2005, at 14:03:38
In reply to termination continued - sad, posted by Shortelise on May 26, 2005, at 20:27:54
Oh, it hurts so much!
I think my T did something similar; I felt the atmosphere was different the last couple of sessions I had with him. I felt as if he expected me to be more grown-up, and I felt like I wanted to regress; I just wanted him to hold me like a little girl. Before that my feelings about him hadn’t been anywhere near childlike!
I can understand that your T wants you to think carefully about what life will be like after termination. That he wants to point out to you some of the things you rely on him for. And that he also wants you to realise how far you’ve come (although – and I’m not intending to criticize him – the word ‘addicted’ is quite a strong one).
I think it’s quite true what Voce said: he will miss you. I would imagine that colours his approach to termination a little.
(((((ShortE)))))
I’m sorry you feel so awful. It is awful preparing to say goodbye to someone so precious. I hope you’ll be able to talk with him about those feelings, because getting through the loss is something that really needs to be talked about before the loss.
Sending you big hugs.
Tamar
Posted by shrinking violet on May 27, 2005, at 14:31:28
In reply to termination continued - sad, posted by Shortelise on May 26, 2005, at 20:27:54
> And I know he still cares about me, he told me so, and that withdrawing the nurturing, the kind understanding I have come to count on, is part of that caring. He wants me NOT to be dependant on him, he wants me to be able to take care of myself.
((((((Shortelise))))))
I'm crying as I write this, because I'm going through this too and it HURTS so much, more than anything I've ever experienced (or let myself experience, I should say).I often wonder if that concept is something they tell themselves so they can sleep at night, so they can hurt us and have it not bother them (i.e. it's for their own good, the way a vet might have to temporarily hurt an animal to make it better in the end). But I'm not sure I agree with the philosophy, because they don't know how MUCH it hurts, how anguishing it is, and it doesn't go away with a pinch and a breath, it lingers, and it's horrid.
I hope that's what my T is thinking, in turning her back on me now when I need her most. I hope she at least thinks she's doing it for me. I hope it isn't something I've done to her to wear her out, or make her hate me or test her limits so much she has nothing else to give. I guess I'll never know, and of course not knowing, I blame me.
I'm glad you and your T are at least having this dialogue and so you know his thoughts and feelings, so when it does hurt, you can at least be reassured he's doing it for you (I'm still not sure I agree with it, it seems twisted to me).
I wish you as much peace as you can get through this.
SV
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 13:37:27
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad » Shortelise, posted by pinkeye on May 26, 2005, at 20:43:48
I know when I write about termination it brings up lots of other people's feelings about it. I wiah it weren't something I need help with here, because of that.
I don't feel blamed for my intensity at all, really. I don't feel he is blaming me. I think he is informing me.
It's hard to let go of the little world I have created around him. Addiction is an ugly word.
Thank you, Pinkeye.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 13:48:14
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad, posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 21:19:00
I swear it's everything I can do to stop myself throwing a huge tantrum on his rug! I feel just like my two year old friend seems to - you won't give me what I want, what I deem I need, so what else can I do but stop here and now, throw myself to the ground and have a screaming fit?
Wouldn't that be a little funny! I wonder what he would do? It would be a sight, me in my silver jewellry and nice, pressed, kicking and howling on the floor!
A series of small losses. That is really astute, Dinah. It's exactly how it feels. Each time I go to see him, I lose something more. But this last time he did assure me that he cares about me. That helps.
Thanks Dinah.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:01:03
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad » Shortelise, posted by Daisym on May 26, 2005, at 21:29:39
I AM ashamed. I am so ashamed. And I am ashamed to be "addicted" still to therapy. It's so ugly. Yes, it's the label that hurts so much, it really is. The "you are addicted" words. It feels like a pointed finger. Labels. SInce I was hospitalized as a teenager, I have hated labels, and it didn't occur to me until you defined it as a label. Thank you, Daisy!
It's not so much that he is withdrawing the kindness, it's that he's not helping me through the process as he used to. (Forive me if I contradict myself.) What do I mean ... I'm not sure. He is still kind, but not nurturing. It's as if he is kindly saying, no, you can figure that out for yourself. No, I won't baby you through this. No, you it's not appropriate anymore to approach this or that in this manner.
I guess he feels there are things I need to understand, ways I still need him - he says that if I were to leave and not come back at this point,he has complete confidence I would be fine, that I would be more than fine. I could do that. But as we all now know, I am ADDICTED to therapy.
(string of invective here)
Thanks DaisyM. I do trust that he actaully knows the best way to do this. I just hate him for it. :-)
ShortE
Posted by Dinah on May 28, 2005, at 14:11:01
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad » Dinah, posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 13:48:14
That would help, knowing he cares.
I told my therapist this week about my internal temper tantrum.
I told him "Now's the point when I'm internally stomping my feet and telling you that if you understood, you wouldn't need for me to tell you." and later "Since I had to tell you, anything you say doesn't count."
It was a nice compromise, I thought, between actually having the tantrum and swallowing the anger.
He decided to be amused.
((((ShortE))))
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:12:22
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad » Shortelise, posted by littleone on May 26, 2005, at 21:51:19
Thanks for the kick in the pants to my T, Littleone. I rather enjoyed the image - you small, with pointy little feet so a kick in the pants HURTS!
My T did hold my hand through it all. He was patient, kind, gentle, etc. It's just now that he's saying, sorry ShortE, no more hand holding, kiddo.
Maybe he jumped on this thing this time because I have done it so many times with him,brought something he said, but brought it out of context. In fact, I am sure that's why he did. Ok, he's right, I should not do that to people. But tome he is not people, he's my T, but his point is, I guess, now I must practice with him what I've learned with him...??
Ugh.
I have three cats, a 12 year old, an 8 month old and a ten week old. The two younger ones are a comedy team, and I have spend lots of time watching them and laughing.
And as soon as I can find some local strawberries, I am going to make a strawberry shortcake. When I read your post a couple of days ago, I decided to do that. It's one of my ulitmate comfort foods.
Thanks again, Littlone.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:13:22
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad, posted by sleepygirl on May 27, 2005, at 0:33:30
Thanks Sleepygirl. You get it.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:15:39
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad, posted by happyflower on May 27, 2005, at 9:39:46
Happyflower, maybe it'll be easier for you because your therapy has been shorter? I hope so.
And as you can see, we're here for each other, and we'll help you through it as best we can.
Thanks, Happyflower, for the hugs and kind words.
(((happyflower)))
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:20:09
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad » Shortelise, posted by pegasus on May 27, 2005, at 10:27:07
If I gave you his 'phone number would you call him up and say that to him?
Maybe it's because of the way I am that has prompted him to use this technique with me. He says he has been trying to hlep me through my termniation feelings for the past two years. I don't see it that way, but I am about as circumcspect as a canary when it comes to therapy.
Thank you Pegasus. This is really food for thought and will absolutely be food for discussion next time I see him..
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:22:48
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad » Shortelise, posted by messadivoce on May 27, 2005, at 11:02:43
I can't imagine that he'll miss me, frankly, but I would like it if he did. But what's to miss? God, that makes me sad.
He did tell me he cares about me and that it's difficult for him too. Although I do believe he cares, I can't believe he'd miss me.
Thank you for the strength and love. You are so kind.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:26:41
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad » Shortelise, posted by Tamar on May 27, 2005, at 14:03:38
I really need to clarify that our last session is nowhere in the offing. I will see him once a month for at least the next six months. I am not going to let go of him, the dirty little ... ahem. Excuse me. I mean, he has given me the freedom to, I guess, get sick of him.
I;m being silly.
We don't talk about loss. It's so painful. But we do need to, and your post clarified that for me. Thank you.
((Tamar))
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:32:14
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad » Shortelise, posted by shrinking violet on May 27, 2005, at 14:31:28
Oh, Violet, I am so sorry you are suffering so much. At least I can take this stuff back to him, talk about it, get clear on things with him. You've made me count my blessings, and I thank you for that.
Did you believe your T was a good T while you were seeing her? Did she seem to care about you? BEcause if your answers are yes, then I would bet she is doing her best for you now, and continues to care about you in the way she believes is best for you. I truly believe that.
I wish you peace, too, Violet. And I send you warm hugs. Thanks for writing when I know it's a terribly painful thing foryou right now too.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:33:17
In reply to termination continued - sad, posted by Shortelise on May 26, 2005, at 20:27:54
The one with no name is for you - sorry.
ShortE
Posted by daisym on May 28, 2005, at 18:53:31
In reply to Daisy!, posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:33:17
It was a test, right? :) I found it.
I think you have turned what he said into something else. He didn't say you were addicted to therapy -- he said you were addicted to intensity. (right? Did he say therapy too?) I don't see it that way. I see leaving as very similiar to growing up. Leaving "home" means feeling less safe and relying more on your own judgement. It means no more unconditional love, or acceptance. It means dealing with the real world by calling on your strengths and inner resilence.
Doing all that is hard. The rewards are great, but still, it is very hard and scary. But I don't think you are addicted to therapy, anymore than one gets addicted to their parents, or siblings. It is a relationship that has nutured and sustained you. Sometimes the birds don't leave the nest, don't believe they can fly, until they get nudged. And the first few seconds out of the nest are terrifying -- you are free-falling!!! But, then you spread your wings and slow the fall and begin to glide up and away.
You can do this Elyse. I bet your wings are just beautiful too. Just remember to glide for awhile.
Posted by Shortelise on May 29, 2005, at 0:27:39
In reply to Re: Daisy! » Shortelise, posted by daisym on May 28, 2005, at 18:53:31
Yes, it was a test. You passed. :-) Ok, not really, but just in case you need a boost, you can say it was.
He did say I am addicted to the process - therapy - as well as saying I had been addicted to intensity.
But yes, yes, it is like leaving home. But I ran away from there, way too young.
Free fall, hm? I love the metaphor at least.
Thanks Daisy.
ShortE
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