![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 108 to 132 of 283. Go back in thread:
Posted by pegasus on May 23, 2005, at 18:13:37
In reply to Chapter 2. Too many buttons to mention., posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 9:43:41
You know, Dinah, that doesn't sound like the golden fantasy to me. It sounds like a very reasonable and realistic therapy relationship. So, maybe your fantasy and reality are the same, lucky you. ;)
For me everything in this chapter strikes true. That's what's so great about this book. It's incredibly validating. In my first major therapy relationship, everything that happened was hugely important, and I had such dependency, and fantasies, etc.
We talked about it later after therapy (via email). He told me that he thought it was so intense relative to my current therapy relationship because it was the first time I'd talked about a lot of secret stuff. So, I'd needed to do a lot of relationship testing before we got into the big secrets. Once I'd done the testing and telling, the relationship was just really important and special.
So, here's a question: why does that happen in one therapy relationship but not in another? The way Ms. Lott describes these intense feelings and fantasies, they're just inevitable because of the therapy scenario. But I've experienced it with some therapists, and not with others. And all the therapists involved seemed warm, empathetic, and skilled. Am I just in a different place wrt my issues with each therapist?
pegasus
Posted by alexandra_k on May 23, 2005, at 18:18:06
In reply to Re: Chapter 2. Too many buttons to mention. » Dinah, posted by pegasus on May 23, 2005, at 18:13:37
I haven't been reading the thread...
But I'll start reading and join in any old day now...
:-)
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 19:58:35
In reply to Re: My copy just arrived :-), posted by alexandra_k on May 23, 2005, at 18:18:06
It's actually been sort of quiet.
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 20:03:32
In reply to Re: Chapter 2. Too many buttons to mention. » Dinah, posted by pegasus on May 23, 2005, at 18:13:37
> You know, Dinah, that doesn't sound like the golden fantasy to me. It sounds like a very reasonable and realistic therapy relationship. So, maybe your fantasy and reality are the same, lucky you. ;)
That's what I think. But I wonder what my therapist would say. I wonder that a lot. I wonder if he sees our relationship anywhere near how I see it. You know therapist speak.
>
> For me everything in this chapter strikes true. That's what's so great about this book. It's incredibly validating. In my first major therapy relationship, everything that happened was hugely important, and I had such dependency, and fantasies, etc.Yes, this is the chapter that hits on soooo many things.
>
> We talked about it later after therapy (via email). He told me that he thought it was so intense relative to my current therapy relationship because it was the first time I'd talked about a lot of secret stuff. So, I'd needed to do a lot of relationship testing before we got into the big secrets. Once I'd done the testing and telling, the relationship was just really important and special.Also it might have been your first experience with that level of intense intimacy. Or you may be subconsciously guarding yourself now.
>
> So, here's a question: why does that happen in one therapy relationship but not in another? The way Ms. Lott describes these intense feelings and fantasies, they're just inevitable because of the therapy scenario. But I've experienced it with some therapists, and not with others. And all the therapists involved seemed warm, empathetic, and skilled. Am I just in a different place wrt my issues with each therapist?
>
> pegasusI know I've read some books that explore that. They all seemed to have the same style? Because I can clearly see a difference in the mental health providers I've seen, and I can point to the exact qualities that are in this relationship, but not the others. If all other variables are the same, it must have something to do with you...
But maybe they just feel different, or the chemistry is different.
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 20:05:08
In reply to Re: Chapter 2. Too many buttons to mention., posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 20:03:32
Posted by annierose on May 23, 2005, at 22:14:08
In reply to Re: Chapter 2. Too many buttons to mention. » Dinah, posted by pegasus on May 23, 2005, at 18:13:37
Pegasus-
I think it's a combination of the T's orientation, and your combined personality styles and general "connection" that foster (or doesn't) those powerful feelings.
My current T is the one I have had the longest relationship with and hence the strongest feelings. I have seen 2 other therapists and never had developed any of these feelings. But all 3 had totally different theraputic orientations. My current T is psychodynamic and fosters those feelings. I see her 3x per week, and feel sad when I go on vacation or when she goes away. With my other T's, I was never fazed by their absence. Hmmm. It's curious. I just feel that this T is with me. So I miss her when she's not physically here too.
Posted by pegasus on May 23, 2005, at 23:05:54
In reply to Re: Chapter 2. Too many buttons to mention. » pegasus, posted by annierose on May 23, 2005, at 22:14:08
Yeah, it's probably because of differences between their styles and some subconscious holding back on my part. All of my therapists have been psychodynamic (except one CBT), so they haven't been much different. But there are always personality differences, etc. I guess my point is that in the book, she doesn't really explore that at all. Which is fine, because it covers a lot of more important ground.
Ch. 2 says so many important things that I haven't seen discussed anywhere else. In explaining why these fantasies, dependencies, sensitivites develop, she makes such a good case for it being reasonable and expected. So, I find it curious that sometimes it doesn't happen, even when all the ingredients she mentions are there.
pegasus
Posted by alexandra_k on May 24, 2005, at 16:56:48
In reply to Re: My copy just arrived :-), posted by alexandra_k on May 23, 2005, at 18:18:06
I haven't read the thread yet because I'm trying to get caught up. I am getting through the first chapter though... Wow... It is really good. Now I'm going to be doing minimal work all week :-)
I like her take on things. She ties it together into a narrative - but: don't be fooled that she is just 'telling the womens stories' without being in the grip of a theory herself... There isn't any such thing as an a-theorietic stance.
What I like about her stance is that it seems common-sense, demystifying, and charitable. I like her thoughts on transference etc.
:-)
I think I like it for fairly much the same reasons I'm into Linehan. A non-judgemental stance.
That was interesting about Anna O. I have read a fair bit about her... At least I thought I had... I didn't know about the phantom pregnancy... Don't know how I managed to miss that...
Posted by alexandra_k on May 24, 2005, at 18:31:56
In reply to Re: Wow..., posted by alexandra_k on May 24, 2005, at 16:56:48
Okay... So I've read the stuff on the first chapter... Though I'll have to think about 'approximation' a bit...
Have been thinking about Bruer...
Was it really a phantom pregnancy?????
She was institutionalised around then...
Just a thought.I guess the situation would have been pretty terrifying for him as well... I mean, he didn't have anyone to normalise his counter-transference feelings either.
I know that therapists are supposed to be able to put their needs / desires aside in order to do therapy properly... I know that they know that. But I'm sure that they get some situations (when people want to go deeper) and / or some clients where they are unsure whether they CAN do that. Even though they know they should - they are human after all...
Hmm...
Was the 'approximation' stuff about an approximation of love, an approximation of a relationship with friends or a lover or parents?
(Sorry if I'm missing the point there)The template idea sounds to me a lot like schemata (schemas).
I like it how she doesn't have transference based solely on the past - it is also an artifact of the present interrelation.
And the nature of therapy...
The nature of therapy...I like her dilemmas
The power imbalance
The dilemmas of paying for caring etc etc
They do make it hard.I have been thinking about what she was saying about therapy with respect to Babble as well...
Not just with respect to us being like the coffee group but...
Well...
This place IS my therapy.
So I guess this kind of makes you guys my therapists in a sense...
Not that you have a professional obligation to me or anything like that...
But it is an approximation of a therapy relationship in the sense that I bring stuff here that most people would take to their therapist.So how much is Babble (when viewed as an approximation of therapy) subject to the same dilemmas, and how much is it not????????
Hmm....
There isn't just ONE person like therapy - because here there are many Babblers.
I don't pay anything for caring
But I do think the caring I receive (or at least the extent of it etc) is dependent on the caring I give
(But that is more an approximation to real world relationships than MONEY which is an issue in therapy)And transference...
Whats up with that here???
I have found that I do get particularly attached to particular posters.
And I have had Babblemails which indicate I'm not the only one.Interesting...
Posted by alexandra_k on May 24, 2005, at 18:44:17
In reply to Re: Wow..., posted by alexandra_k on May 24, 2005, at 18:31:56
I think...
I think the notion is that when people say they have a relationship with someone they are usually talking about the following sorts of things:- partner / lover
- children
- parents
- family
- friendsThese are the people that we tend to have strong ties to and strong feelings for.
But strong feelings arise in therapy...
So... What sort of relationship is that.
It isn't friendship (though it might seem like your therapist is your best friend - there are important differences - so therapy is an approximation of friendship)
It isn't that the therapist is your parent (though it might seem like it etc.)
And so on...
And one thing... One thing that is different is reciprocity. That is inherantly lacking in a therapy relationship (but not on Babble...)
I think she wants to say that the feelings are real - but also wants to acknowledge some of the important differences between these RL relationships and a therapy relationship.
My understanding of the symbolic nature...
Is that the therapist kind of becomes a symbol for 'humanity' and how everyone will relate to you if you do / disclose certain things... You tell your t your 'deepest darkest fears / secrets' and how your t handles that becomes the limits on how much other people will be able to accept you.
I mean, if your therapist can't accept you in all your glory, then who can???
But I think there is more to it than that...
The schemas you use as a lens through which to see your t mean that you see your t as a symbol as well. A symbol is something that REPRESENTS something else. A t can represent your child (whether you actually have any or not) your parent your lover etc.
Everyone... everyone in RL that you could potentially have a relationship with and everyone who you have had a relationship with.
But I am taking pseudoephedrine for my cold... and so maybe I'm talking out of my *ss...
:-)
Posted by Annierose on May 24, 2005, at 21:39:34
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships, posted by alexandra_k on May 24, 2005, at 18:44:17
That's makes perfect sense ... good cold medication or not. Hope you feel better soon!!
Posted by Dinah on May 25, 2005, at 0:25:24
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships, posted by Annierose on May 24, 2005, at 21:39:34
But I think you made some good observations I'd like to comment on.
Not least of which is my curiosity over any transference you might have towards me. I used to remind someone of their Aunt, I think. :)
Posted by alexandra_k on May 25, 2005, at 3:50:32
In reply to Brain too fried to think, Alexandra, posted by Dinah on May 25, 2005, at 0:25:24
... I thought I was still in Chapter one.
The bit about the golden fantasy struck me too.
I didn't think I was much of an idealiser...
Rational me knows better than that...
But rational me aside
Yeah.
That really struck a chord with me...
That lady who talked about fantasising that her family would be killed... Well... That used to be a fairly standard and recurrent fantasy of mine when I was a kid. About my mother anyway. Sometimes my Dad would get me. Sometimes a teacher. I don't think it mattered really... Just someone... Anyone...But when we are really small
Before we gain a theory of mind
(the ability to see that other people have beliefs and desires)
When everything revolves around us
And (theorietically) our needs are just met as they arise (sort of...)
Well...
Who wouldn't long for that?
But you realise it is impossible once you realise that other people have needs too.
But part of you doesn't see that...
And just wants to be loved in the sense of someone being there to meet ones needs on demand in a way that is impossible in the real world. And you know that... But...
And that is me, of course.
But yeah, I get that.Then the other lady...
Or maybe it was even the same one.
About how her drama teacher seduced her...
And how her therapy went.
OMG
Thats me.
I went along with the story to a point...
Then thought OMG is that whats going on with me (horror)
Then it was resolved ok (phew)
But then what???
What of life after therapy???Too many buttons to mention...
Posted by pegasus on May 25, 2005, at 11:10:01
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships, posted by alexandra_k on May 24, 2005, at 18:44:17
Yes what you say makes a lot of sense. I especially like the part about how a therapy relationship is like a friendship but not really, and like having a parent but not really, and like having a lover but not really . . . And then your point about reciprocity is right on. Is it a relationship as we usually define them IRL if there is no reciprocity? And then what if one therapist does talk about themself and accept/expect caring from a client, while another doesn't. Is one therapy relationship more approximate than another then?
I am really looking forward to asking Deborah Lott about this. I don't think she was very clear about what she meant. On the other hand, it's been interesting and useful to hear all of our thoughts about how the therapy relationship is approximate.
pegasus
Posted by Tamar on May 25, 2005, at 16:21:44
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships » alexandra_k, posted by pegasus on May 25, 2005, at 11:10:01
I thought the idea of therapy relationships as approximate was interesting. I’ve tended to think of my relationship with my ex T as something completely unlike all other relationships, rather than something approximating to other relationships (although I know there’s been some of that too).
I was very struck by the part under the heading Love, where she says,
‘The therapist’s love is always limited – no therapist can sustain a therapy relationship in which she loves freely because to love freely is to want something back, and to want back is to jeopardize the therapy. Love between two adults requires a two-way relationship, a negotiation of needs, a meshing of realities.’I wonder if all this is necessarily true. Is it true that to love freely means to want something back? Is it even possible to prevent oneself from loving freely? I always thought that love was something outside our control. Also, is it wrong for a therapist to want something back, even if that something is that the client makes an effort to engage with the therapy?
I loved Renee’s Story, at the end of the chapter. And I think it’s significant that Lott says Renee ‘could safely allow herself the vulnerability of loving him and feeling loved.’
Is feeling loved also an approximation? I guess it must be... so why doesn’t it *feel* like an approximation?
Posted by alexandra_k on May 25, 2005, at 23:32:22
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships, posted by Tamar on May 25, 2005, at 16:21:44
> I wonder if all this is necessarily true. Is it true that to love freely means to want something back?
I think so. At the very least it needs the love to be reciprocated. Otherwise it would die. Therapy wouldn't work out very well if our therapists needed us to love them as we need them to love us. It would be reciprocal - but it wouldn't be therapy.
To love you want to spend time with the person. Tell them stuff. Whats on your mind. Whats worrying you. But t's aren't supposed to do that. The love they show is limited...
> I loved Renee’s Story, at the end of the chapter. And I think it’s significant that Lott says Renee ‘could safely allow herself the vulnerability of loving him and feeling loved.’
I worry about that sense of 'feeling loved'. One feels loved because of the nature of the therapy relationship. They are supposed to focus on you for that time. Emotionally hold you etc. But RL isn't like that... It is more reciprocal. I worry that therapy teaches us the wrong messages about the nature of love and caring and about the nature of human relationships.
I worry that it fosters desires along the lines of the golden fantasy. That once those desires are fostered all you have done is made that person dependent on therapy relationships to get those desires met.
I'm not sure whether it is good for RL relationships... I'm not sure...
> Is feeling loved also an approximation? I guess it must be... so why doesn’t it *feel* like an approximation?Whether it is an approximation of love or not kind of depends on how one defines love - I would say.
Can you buy love?
Can you buy the 'love' of a therapist?I would say 'no' to the first and 'yes' to the second. IMO therapy would therefore be an approximation of love.
Not that the feelings are any the less real...
But just that RL love isn't one sided.
It isn't in measured weekly doses.
It isn't dependent on the payment of a fee.
Posted by Tamar on May 26, 2005, at 9:14:03
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships » Tamar, posted by alexandra_k on May 25, 2005, at 23:32:22
> > I wonder if all this is necessarily true. Is it true that to love freely means to want something back?
>
> I think so. At the very least it needs the love to be reciprocated. Otherwise it would die. Therapy wouldn't work out very well if our therapists needed us to love them as we need them to love us. It would be reciprocal - but it wouldn't be therapy.Hmm… I think of the way I love my students, and I think I love them freely, without expecting them to reciprocate. It’s nice if they like me, and if they work hard, but I’ve had students who didn’t work hard and I still loved them. Even when one or two students haven’t liked me much I’ve usually liked them. Some of them are a pain in the *ss, but I still love them. And my students are adults; many of them are older than me.
> To love you want to spend time with the person. Tell them stuff. Whats on your mind. Whats worrying you. But t's aren't supposed to do that. The love they show is limited...
Well, certainly I have more freedom to be myself with my students than a T has with clients. But I’m also somewhat limited; I wouldn’t expect to be telling them much about my private life. However, we can talk about things that aren’t too personal, and it doesn’t seem to stop me feeling love for them. And love always has limits, in all relationships, doesn’t it?
> > I loved Renee’s Story, at the end of the chapter. And I think it’s significant that Lott says Renee ‘could safely allow herself the vulnerability of loving him and feeling loved.’
>
> I worry about that sense of 'feeling loved'. One feels loved because of the nature of the therapy relationship. They are supposed to focus on you for that time. Emotionally hold you etc. But RL isn't like that... It is more reciprocal. I worry that therapy teaches us the wrong messages about the nature of love and caring and about the nature of human relationships.
>
> I worry that it fosters desires along the lines of the golden fantasy. That once those desires are fostered all you have done is made that person dependent on therapy relationships to get those desires met.
>
> I'm not sure whether it is good for RL relationships... I'm not sure...Yes, that is a hard question. Maybe it works through a combination of the relationship and the subject matter.
> > Is feeling loved also an approximation? I guess it must be... so why doesn’t it *feel* like an approximation?
>
> Whether it is an approximation of love or not kind of depends on how one defines love - I would say.
>
> Can you buy love?
> Can you buy the 'love' of a therapist?
>
> I would say 'no' to the first and 'yes' to the second. IMO therapy would therefore be an approximation of love.I’m not sure I’d say yes even to the second. I’m not convinced that feeling loved by the therapist has much to do with paying a fee. I think it’s about an emotional investment rather than a financial one. You can buy the services of a therapist but there’s no guarantee you’re going to feel loved (or be loved).
> Not that the feelings are any the less real...
> But just that RL love isn't one sided.
> It isn't in measured weekly doses.
> It isn't dependent on the payment of a fee.Well, it’s certainly true that the feelings are just as real in therapy as IRL. I’ve been thinking a bit about the one-sidedness or inequality that people point to in therapy and I’m curious about the possibility of thinking of it in terms of a petit différend (are you interested in Lyotard?)...
Posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 9:40:33
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships » alexandra_k, posted by Tamar on May 26, 2005, at 9:14:03
> I’m not sure I’d say yes even to the second. I’m not convinced that feeling loved by the therapist has much to do with paying a fee. I think it’s about an emotional investment rather than a financial one. You can buy the services of a therapist but there’s no guarantee you’re going to feel loved (or be loved).
I absolutely agree. I even talked to my therapist once. I told him that I thought it would be rude of me to want him to like me or care about me. Because I was paying him to be there for specified time and in a specified context. But that any feelings he felt toward me or any of his patients were his, and weren't guaranteed with the fee. I think that was when my therapist started to have genuine fondness for me. Or somewhere in that time frame when we were struggling with that overarching concept.
Probably because that's when I started exhibiting my emotional investment in the relationship, and he started investing emotionally himself.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 26, 2005, at 18:51:47
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships » alexandra_k, posted by Tamar on May 26, 2005, at 9:14:03
> Hmm… I think of the way I love my students, and I think I love them freely, without expecting them to reciprocate. It’s nice if they like me, and if they work hard, but I’ve had students who didn’t work hard and I still loved them. Even when one or two students haven’t liked me much I’ve usually liked them. Some of them are a pain in the *ss, but I still love them. And my students are adults; many of them are older than me.
Yes. But you are like the therapist there.
Wouldn't that be an 'approximation' of love in your relationships just there?
> Well, certainly I have more freedom to be myself with my students than a T has with clients. But I’m also somewhat limited; I wouldn’t expect to be telling them much about my private life. However, we can talk about things that aren’t too personal, and it doesn’t seem to stop me feeling love for them. And love always has limits, in all relationships, doesn’t it?Yeah. But there is a similar power imbalance in teaching relationships as there is in therapy relationsips. Thats why there is a general policy of not getting involved (ie sexually) in both cases...
> Yes, that is a hard question. Maybe it works through a combination of the relationship and the subject matter.
I'm not sure whether it does work.
Thats what I have been wondering...
People get to there...
People get to that point...
How many people come out the other side?
Wake up one day and say
'Why on earth am I paying you to listen to me and care about me when I can find that for free in the real world? Why on earth would I find more satisfaction out of an artificially contrived one sided relationship than with what I can find in a reciprocal RL relationship?'
How many people get there?
And how many people just get stuck...
> > Can you buy love?
> > Can you buy the 'love' of a therapist?
> > I would say 'no' to the first and 'yes' to the second. IMO therapy would therefore be an approximation of love.
> I’m not sure I’d say yes even to the second. I’m not convinced that feeling loved by the therapist has much to do with paying a fee.Paying a fee seems to be a necessary though not sufficient condition. Nobody will work with you if you can't pay them - but even if you do pay them there is no guarantee...
>I’m curious about the possibility of thinking of it in terms of a petit différend (are you interested in Lyotard?)...
???
I haven't heard that expression or that person...
Do you want to say some more???
Posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 19:09:47
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships » Tamar, posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 9:40:33
One day, when we're not doing other stuff as we are at the moment, I'd love to bring this book to therapy and go through parts of Chapter 2. It may be my favorite chapter. I have so much to comment about on it that it might take several posts, linked to her sections.
The disproportionate importance of small things -
Ohhhh, that's a big one for me. I am soooo aware of everything in therapy. It's like I turn into one of those great big satellite receivers. And because I have limited information about my therapist, I tend to build on those small bits of information. I remember everything he ever says about himself personally, so that I can put together a picture of this person that knows me more intimately than anyone, yet I don't know all that well. I draw conclusions about him from his office. His old office was full of... unusual, shall we say, decor. It was a gorgeous room, but the actual choice of small items was not the norm. So once when he mentioned that his boss had asked him to stay and that caused him to be late for our session, I couldn't focus until I asked him about it. I told him his room didn't look like the office of someone who would refer to anyone else as his "boss". He was really surprised, because he said I was right. He had purposely chosen to use the word so as to excuse his latenes. He didn't ordinarily. His new office is all angular art deco. :(
Or his weight. He once told me that he ate when under stress. And I've noticed that myself. When he's relaxed and happy, he loses weight. So when he gains weight I worry. I want to tell him to please be careful, and start exercising, because I don't want anything to happen to him. But of course I can't. Because he's not my friend, he's my therapist.
Attachment and dependency -
Again, a huuuge topic for me. Probably the centerpiece of most of the work we've done, it's so huge. He was an excellent object for all of that to be played out on. When Lott quoted the young woman who said "I fear coming to her office and finding a note that she will no longer be seeing clients." I had to smile in recognition. I've probably had every conceivable scenario involving my therapist leaving me run through my head at least once. And driven him crazy by bringing them to therapy.
Therapist's Presence Brings Comfort -
I've always been very vocal about my therapist's presence bringing me comfort. Well, as long as he feels the same. If he doesn't he does more harm than good. His office no longer needs to be the same. I now have met him at a satellite office of his, and caused him dismay by not minding a bit. As long as he's there, and feels the same. I was only attached to the old office. It's like he's a blankie, or my usual imagery, a milky mother to a suckling baby. So naturally, I was most interested in the section on types of transference
Child - Parent
Alike and Different -
This was never really a huge issue for me. I knew he was a lot different. And he is too smart to talk about any area our fundamental values might differ. Do any of you measure yourselves against your therapist for similarities and differences?
Sory to go on for so long, and to make it so personal. But Chapter 2 resonates so much with me. And it is a very personal chapter for me. It normalizes so much of what I experience. I think that's the great power of this book.
Posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 19:13:46
In reply to Other aspects of Chapter 2, posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 19:09:47
This one threw me a bit, because unlike most of the book, it was something outside my experience.
When she said the relationship was the item that therapists and clients felt least comfortable discussing, except for sex, I was astonished. My therapist has always made it a perfectly ok topic. (Sex too, for that matter). Which is just as well, since it has taken up so much time. All of my issues seem to come up time and time again in the context of our relationship. All the work we're doing now is done with the backdrop of years and years of discussing our relationship in ways that these topics are already open and ready for exploration. I can't imagine a therapist being uncomfortable discussing the relationship. Or sex for that matter. I guess I'm spoiled there.
How do therapists find out what their clients' real issues are if they don't talk about their relationship? Because I lie. Well, not really lie. But I don't think I'd walk in and say I'm an endless well of need. And he certainly would never notice it when I talk of my other relationships. He'd think I was sort of schizoid. So only by focussing on my relationship was he able to see that my pathology was more borderline than schizoid. Don't other therapies get stymied by that? If the relationship between the therapist and client isn't discussed?
Posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 19:33:57
In reply to Chapter 2. Communicating feelings., posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 19:13:46
Eeek. The touchiest and most embarassing section for last...
I feel exposed all over just thinking about it. And I don't think we've ever addressed it directly in therapy. Toooo touchy a subject.
"To be special means to have reached the therapist on some more personal level, to be appreciated for more than one's fees. To be special is to be needed back."
Wow.
One of our recurring jokes now is based on my statement that I'd never know whether he cared about me as more than an income stream. For some reason, that term struck his fancy.
I've always known I seek to reach him on a personal level. That can mean a lot of things.
I feel silly happy when I elicit a drawl from him. He's mostly gotten rid of it, but when he's most authentically him, he still drawls.
I want so much for him to be fond of me. For him to be amused by me. For him to give me the casual pat on the head sort of affection that I crave.
I want for him to recognize how well I know him. So that when he acknowledges that yes, I was right when I guessed he always made his bed. Or yes, I was right when I guessed that he didn't often use the word "boss". Or what he said to me the other day, that meant a whole lot to me. He said that when something's wrong at home, or he's worried about something, he comes into therapy thinking he's got on a good front, but that I can always see through it, no matter how hard he tries. I think that meant more to me than when he expresses fondness for me in words.
Actually, him saying something about me in words means not all that much to me. The time he told me that when he tells me he cares about me, he means more or less what I mean when I say I love him doesn't mean as much as those moments.
Moments when he drawls. Moments when he smiles, or chuckles, or throws back his head and laughs at something I've said that's very "me". Moments when he acknowledges that I can *see* the real him.
He tells me I'm special. He puts it in a way that's not terribly personal. He says I've been with him for far longer than any other client. That I've invested more in the relationship, and he's invested more in the relationship through hard work and "fighting to relationship" than he has with anyone else he sees. And he apologized once for not distinguishing me from the average client on some reaction or another, because I told him what's the point in putting in ten years of hard work if I end up being no closer to him than when I first started.
But even that acknowledgement of the work we've put in, and the fighting to relationship that I so value, doesn't mean as much as a chuckle or a drawl.
They mean too much.
I've talked about this indirectly I suppose. But after re-reading this chapter, I see that I've been avoiding talking about it directly.
Posted by annierose on May 26, 2005, at 19:43:06
In reply to Other aspects of Chapter 2, posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 19:09:47
Dinah -
Yes I notice and thrive on our similarities as small (& and some out of our control) as they might be. And I make a list.We both have first & last names with repeating consonants.
We are both left handed.
We both have 2 children, 1 girl, 1 boy.
We both seem to operate on a high level of energy.
We both opened our own businesses in 1989 (I'm fairly sure that is when she opened her own practice, but I wasn't seeing her then)
And yes, anything that she says or does that is different from her norm, I notice and take mental note ("not her usual reply, wonder what that means"). A small "for instance", as we parted today, she was the first to say, "enjoy your holiday weekend," she never initiates that type of good-bye. I usually will say that after she tells me our time is up.Doesn't it seem like sometimes that have been really thinking about you and all of a sudden, share this wealth of insight that pulls A, B, and C together? Once she began a session, "I've been really curious about x,y and z. What's happening with that?" Hmmm, I thought, that interests her.
Office decor: don't know what that says about her.
Very well organized, not fussy (thankfully), kind of simple, some art work is dated. I don't look around, so I don't notice too much anyway.
Therapist brings comfort: Yes, a big one for me too. Sometimes when we're quiet and she asks, "what's running through your mind?" (on the list of least favorite questions), I'll reply, "sometimes it's just nice knowing you're there."I do wonder about her personal values. I'm fairly liberal and don't know if I shock her sometimes. But she doesn't reply as if I do. Once when I made a disparaging remark of our President, she laughed and then quickly recovered.
I like it when I make her laugh. And I like it when she replies with humor sometimes, when it's appropriate.
Yes, a solid chapter indeed.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 26, 2005, at 22:38:04
In reply to Re: Other aspects of Chapter 2, posted by annierose on May 26, 2005, at 19:43:06
Posted by daisym on May 27, 2005, at 1:32:58
In reply to Other aspects of Chapter 2, posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 19:09:47
****One day, when we're not doing other stuff as we are at the moment, I'd love to bring this book to therapy and go through parts of Chapter 2.
>>>I feel like I'm already going through chapter 2 bit by bit. Maybe that is why it was so hard for me to read again.
The disproportionate importance of small things -
Yes! Like reading into a sigh. or a change in voice tone. I don't care about the decor and I rearrange the couch pillows the way *I* want them.
Attachment and dependency -
*****Again, a huuuge topic for me. Probably the centerpiece of most of the work we've done, it's so huge. He was an excellent object for all of that to be played out on. When Lott quoted the young woman who said "I fear coming to her office and finding a note that she will no longer be seeing clients." I had to smile in recognition. I've probably had every conceivable scenario involving my therapist leaving me run through my head at least once. And driven him crazy by bringing them to therapy.
>>>>OK, you already know -- ME TOO!! I'm shocked, shocked! that this has happened to me. I've said the note thing to my therapist -- I'm worried I will get here and find a note, "Gone fishing." His response was, "I hate fishing." :) But I still have that fear, or the fear that I'm there on the wrong day or wrong time. And I consider time slots "mine" so I don't want them given away if I can't make it, or if I change. Not rational, not rational at all. I'm really glad that my therapist is so OK with this gigantic attachment I have. I don't want to be pushed away or set back. He told me once that he keeps hoping I will just accept the dependency and sink into it and let myself need him. Then we can really get to work. I wish more of my friends IRL who have or are in therapy had this issue. Or if they do, I wish they would talk about it. I feel like the therapy patient you hear jokes about, clinging and upset if they don't have access to their therapist.
Therapist's Presence Brings Comfort -
Usually. Not always. Sometimes it brings on anxiety.
Child - Parent -- that is how I've always thought of this attachment until very recently.
Alike and Different -
*****This was never really a huge issue for me. I knew he was a lot different. And he is too smart to talk about any area our fundamental values might differ. Do any of you measure yourselves against your therapist for similarities and differences?
We have the same sense of humor and we are both quick to quip. I want to believe we have similar values, but for all I really know, he swings naked in the trees on the weekends. I suspect he likes nature more than I do because he laughed really hard when I said I only camp at Hiltons.
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