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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by pinkeye on May 22, 2005, at 18:00:35
In reply to Arousal in therapy, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 9:07:21
I am glad you are able to talk about it freely with your T.
Also I have a question.. didn't you say you don't see yourself as sexual at all before? So does this mean that is beginning to change? I am wondering if it is just a healing that is occurring.. since you have said in the past you had lots of difficulties in sexual relationship with your husband.
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 18:22:45
In reply to Re: Arousal in therapy » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 22, 2005, at 18:00:35
No, I have no problem with sex. I just don't like other people involved in it. :)
That led to a fight with my therapist once, years ago. He suggested Lonnie Barbach's book "For Yourself: The Fulfillment of Female Sexuality", and after I read it I figured he hadn't been listening to me at all as I relayed this sensitive information. I told him I have no problem with "For Yourself". I needed help with "With Others".
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 18:24:07
In reply to Re: Arousal in therapy » Dinah, posted by Shortelise on May 22, 2005, at 12:53:51
I think it's because it means absolutely nothing to me. I totally divorce the physiology from any emotion. So it's no bigger deal than sneezing.
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 18:27:06
In reply to Re: Arousal in therapy » Dinah, posted by Tamar on May 22, 2005, at 16:07:36
:) I agree completely. It's just a natural response. I'm glad I'm not alone in a) my responses and b) my thoughts on it.
But eeeek! My therapist can't feel it. Because that would mean he saw me as a - gasp!!! - woman! And that just can't be!!! No!!!!
Fortunately, he's a eunuch. And so he would never have such a reaction in therapy, even if it weren't directed at me, but just the situation. He meant *other* people. ;)
Posted by pinkeye on May 22, 2005, at 18:27:51
In reply to Re: Arousal in therapy » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 18:22:45
I see. I don't know too much about it to comment further, but I hope you do find the right help.
Posted by pinkeye on May 22, 2005, at 18:28:48
In reply to Re: Arousal in therapy » Tamar, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 18:27:06
Do you mean your therapist is an eunuch seriously?? Or is it just a joke??
Posted by anastasia56 on May 22, 2005, at 18:39:28
In reply to Re: Arousal in therapy » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 22, 2005, at 18:28:48
that was interesting that you said anxiety can bring on arousal. I never knew that and for years i have felt guilty about a very anxiety producing situation that aroused me. I thought i was abnormal for feeling that way.
ana
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 18:58:49
In reply to Re: Arousal in therapy » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 22, 2005, at 18:28:48
It's a very old Babble joke. Years ago when he told me he was getting married, apparently the thought of marriage made me aware of his sexuality or something. Because I had a dream that his fiancee told me he was a eunuch. I had called and spoken to him on the phone the week I told him about the dream, and had added a quarter hour on to his check. When he protested that he didn't think it amounted to a quarter hour, I told him it was the least I could do since I turned him into a eunuch. lol.
I *think* he thought it was funny, although the whole time period was disconcerting for both of us. Thank heavens I was reading "In Session" at the time, and could figure out what I *wasn't* feeling.
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 19:00:06
In reply to Re: Arousal in therapy » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 22, 2005, at 18:27:51
:-)
I'm not sure I want help. I'm reasonably happy the way I am. I don't want to...
Oh well, it's a long story.
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 19:02:19
In reply to Re: Arousal in therapy, posted by anastasia56 on May 22, 2005, at 18:39:28
I can reassure you without the least bit of doubt there. I think it's a pretty well known link. Something about adrenaline maybe? Or blood flow?
When I started doing breathing and relaxation exercises when I was having panic attacks, the results were interesting to say the least.
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 19:06:49
In reply to Re: Arousal in therapy » anastasia56, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 19:02:19
Was to reassure those who maybe thought it wasn't seemly to be aroused during a session. Or that it meant something embarassing. Because my therapist validated my long held belief that there was nothing out of the ordinary or to be ashamed of in it. And he, even with his monumental ego, didn't think it was anything personal.
The other reason was to find out if I'm a freak. I mean, my therapist said I wasn't. That the average person got aroused several times a day (other than him of course), and that I might be high end normal, but I wasn't a freak. But what does he know?
Posted by daisym on May 22, 2005, at 19:38:04
In reply to One reason I wanted to post this, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 19:06:49
For me, I need to separate the word "normal" and "acceptable or OK."
I think what is unacceptable to me, for myself, is the link between feeling certain sensations in my body and the realization that they might be linked to your therapist - man or woman. You said you've divorced physiology from your emotions. But if one hasn't, it gets confusing and tricky. And if you've had a history of mixed up sex and love, or sex was linked to being close to someone, someone you *knew* you weren't supposed to have sex with, I think it is even trickier. Add in that some of us feel like our bodies betrayed us because there was pleasure intertwined with terror...normal or not, those feelings cause panic, with a capital P!
I think it depends on which question you are asking. Is frequent arousal normal? Probably with some people and not others, like you said. Is arousal in therapy normal? Again, probably for some people and not for others. Is wanting to be close to your therapist normal? Sure, for most of us. Is wanting to be special to your therapist normal? The books tell us it is.
So what happens when you put all these things together? If I want to be close to my therapist and I want to be special to him, AND I feel a certain arousal during therapy, how can I not conclude that I want to have sex with him? My mind might say no, but what if my body is saying yes? And I don't trust my body, so I end up playing head games with myself -- like, maybe it is too scary to admit that you want to have sex...
Can you tell I've talked myself in and around this circle incessantly?
So, I might agree that it is normal, perhaps inevitable to be aroused by the anxiety or body memories during therapy sessions. But I'm not OK with it happening, especially if it is linked to my therapist. I want more control of my body than that. It scares me half to death!
(And yes, my therapist said it is OK and normal and safe and all the other right things, and that he wants to hear about it, etc. etc. But still, IT IS SOOO EMBARRASSING to talk about...)
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 19:59:57
In reply to Re: One reason I wanted to post this, posted by daisym on May 22, 2005, at 19:38:04
I'm sorry, Daisy. :(
I don't mean to minimize it.
If something happens, I give myself permission for it to happen. That way I retain the illusion of control.
I tend to be too pragmatic at times, and I hope it doesn't hurt others. I'd never want it to hurt you.
Maybe understanding the link between specific triggers and the results is the key? I'm very aware of the link between anxiety and arousal. Contrary to what my therapist says, I never remember feeling it when I'm feeling intimacy.
Posted by JenStar on May 22, 2005, at 20:26:14
In reply to One reason I wanted to post this, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 19:06:49
I think you're very brave to post about this!
And I think the "normal" aspect of arousal, no matter how many times you do/don't get aronsed, is what you do with those feelings. It's normal to explore, analyze and then accept them in your situation. That is seemly. It would NOT be "seemly" if you jumped onto his lap every time and demanded a big wet kiss! (I'm guessing this has never happened.)
I think there are normal ways of handling arousal in our society, and that is more important than how many times you become aroused. And being on the high end of normal is pretty cool. It's a nice feeling, being aroused, right? Much better than being on the high end of migraine headaches, or leg cramps, or acne, or something. :)
Again, thanks for being brave enough to share this with us.
It's interesting to me that you feel aroused often, but are not all that interested in sex itself. Is that something you've discussed with the T? (sorry if this is too personal to ask.) It seems that there might be interesting analysis work there.
JenStar
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 21:19:59
In reply to Re: One reason I wanted to post this » Dinah, posted by JenStar on May 22, 2005, at 20:26:14
A big wet kiss?
Shudder. Shudder.
Ooooooh. Iiiiccckkk.
Am I the only person in the world that would rather... Well, never mind.
I don't generally do anything at all with the sensations.
But I'm guessing from the responses that my experience might exceed the high end of normal. :( Oh dear. My therapist was just trying to make me feel better. :((
Oh well. I exceed the high end of normal on migraines and IBS and nerves as well.
I've noticed on Psychological Babble that people seem to be oriented to experiential causes of trouble in the same way that the medication board seems to be oriented to physical causes. I think I'm a bit out of step with that. I see my problem as a jumble of frayed wires and poor circuit design. A short waiting to happen. And until they find the way to fix the wiring, this old house just needs extra special care, in the form of therapy and stability in lifestyle and low stress choices. Maybe that's why I'm in the distinct minority of thinking that, for me, therapy is forever. That if I manage to live through the loss of my therapist, I'll have to find another one to provide the same function. Hmmmm... house wiring analogy. Some sort of safety thingy. I'm not mechanical. Because there is something physically wrong. Down to the migraines, the IBS, the overstimulation, the meltdowns, the extreme end of arousal, and so on. I can't be totally fixed. I need maintenance until they find a way to fix the cholinergic system without major side effects.
But I was probably useful to the tribe in detecting danger, so they protected me and made sure I survived.
Posted by daisym on May 22, 2005, at 22:14:12
In reply to Re: One reason I wanted to post this » JenStar, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 21:19:59
Dinah,
You didn't hurt me. Really. I didn't take it personal. It is an important subject. My analytical brain understands the cause and effect. It is my younger sides that are all screaming that the body response is just, well, wrong! An old tape, I'm sure.
I think you have a very clear understanding of yourself and how you work. It sounds exactly right that if you are ultra sensitive to so many things that you would be sensitive to arousal as well. I don't think your therapist was just trying to make you feel better. I think for you this is perfectly normal. Normal is a stupid word anyway -- what is "typical" for you is what is important. Changes to each person's typical is what alerts us to pay attention.
And I think you are also right that on this board we tend to look at things as if we can control our responses (or should?) -- instead of it being "just" a physiological thing. I think that is why I struggled so much with starting medication. In my heart of hearts I still think I shouldn't need them -- but I think it is perfectly fine for others to take them, necessary even! Go figure...
I definately think I'm talking about how I might feel about my therapist and you are talking about a physical sensation. Very different things! I can see that, I just can't unlink things for myself.
I know I'm making it harder than it needs to be. I just can't figure out how to accept that this is coming up for me right now.
I feel like I'm not making any sense...
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 22:22:39
In reply to Re: One reason I wanted to post this » Dinah, posted by daisym on May 22, 2005, at 22:14:12
Goodness, no. You're making perfect sense. If i ever felt that i was attracted sexually to my therapist, i'd be horrified. Because being sexually attracted is ok for women, but i'm not a woman. And it would be wrong and icky.
And if he were ever aroused in a session, even just because he was anxious, i'd need to take a bath for a year and a half because i'd never be able to believe he didn't think i was a woman.
Thank God I'm ugly.
I do understand.
I just have the sensations separated from any real meaning, because for me they have no real meaning.
But... It'd be ok with my therapist if they did. In fact, I still think he'd consider it progress if I was sexually attracted to anyone, even him.
I still think that sexual feelings (as opposed to sensations) in therapy may be linked somehow to feelings of safety to explore all parts of us. I think they're probably very therapeutic. But have the potential to be painful.
Posted by daisym on May 22, 2005, at 22:37:08
In reply to Re: One reason I wanted to post this » daisym, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 22:22:39
Exactly. I think there is huge potential for pain if this is explored. On the surface he says that I've learned to connect being close to having sex. And I've let him be close to me. So he said it is perfectly understandable that I would begin to get these sensations (not conscious feelings) when I'm close to him.
I have to figure this out before it wrecks my therapy. I've stewed about it all weekend. I'm back and forth between "no big deal" -- like you said, it happens a lot -- to "oh my God, how could I, of all people, feel like this?!"
I wish I was aroused more often and more easily. It wouldn't freak me out now as much, if this was typical for me. It just isn't.
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 22:44:33
In reply to Re: One reason I wanted to post this » Dinah, posted by daisym on May 22, 2005, at 22:37:08
Well, you're doing what you need to do to get through this.
Talking it to death until it totally loses whatever power, meaning, and purpose it once had.
Or at least that's how I deal with things. :)
One day you'll be able to think of sexual feelings and yawn.
(I hope you understand what I mean by this. Otherwise I think my post could come across way wrong. It's one of the reasons I go to therapy. Because doing that always does help me.)
Posted by Tamar on May 23, 2005, at 7:46:07
In reply to Re: One reason I wanted to post this » daisym, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 22:22:39
> Goodness, no. You're making perfect sense. If i ever felt that i was attracted sexually to my therapist, i'd be horrified. Because being sexually attracted is ok for women, but i'm not a woman. And it would be wrong and icky.
Maybe you don’t need to worry. You probably won’t feel attracted to him as long as you aren’t a woman. If someday you become a woman, you might experience sexual attraction, but it might feel OK if you were a woman. And you might not feel attracted to *him*, especially if he’s not your type. And anyway, people don’t become women overnight... it takes most people a few years, at least! It takes time for the ickiness to be transformed into something more like desire.
> And if he were ever aroused in a session, even just because he was anxious, i'd need to take a bath for a year and a half because i'd never be able to believe he didn't think i was a woman.
Is it possible that it’s not about you? I mean, he could get physically aroused just because of the subject matter or whatever, without actually thinking of you as a woman. I’m pretty sure it’s normal for everyone to have physiological feelings of arousal without the emotional feelings of desire for someone. So he could experience arousal in your presence without it having anything to do with you.
> I just have the sensations separated from any real meaning, because for me they have no real meaning.
I really think that’s true for everyone to some extent. Often there’s no real meaning. It’s just that for you it seems as if you there’s pretty much never a connection between arousal and desire.
> But... It'd be ok with my therapist if they did. In fact, I still think he'd consider it progress if I was sexually attracted to anyone, even him.
Do you ever find *yourself* sexually attractive? I mean, I know it’s possible to enjoy erotic feelings while alone without really thinking about appearance, but do you like to look at yourself? (Don’t answer if it’s too personal.) I must admit, sometimes I like to look at myself, but other times I just don’t want to.
> I still think that sexual feelings (as opposed to sensations) in therapy may be linked somehow to feelings of safety to explore all parts of us. I think they're probably very therapeutic. But have the potential to be painful.
Oh yes! And maybe that’s true of the sensations too. I suppose the sensations are very basic, but they can probably be therapeutic if they occur in a safe space. If arousal occurs because of anxiety but can be welcomed into a safe space, then perhaps it signals the possibility of arousal being associated with comfort. In a way, your therapist would be the idea person with whom to enjoy arousal-without-desire. I’m thinking of your suckling pup image. Apparently, small babies experience physiological arousal while breastfeeding... Maybe it could feel something like that.
Or maybe I’m off the mark. But I love the idea of therapy being a safe place to feel aroused.
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 10:14:23
In reply to Re: One reason I wanted to post this » Dinah, posted by Tamar on May 23, 2005, at 7:46:07
Tamar, you are never off the mark. I hate to sound like a groupie or anything, but I really wish you were coming to the party. :) I'd love to get to know you better; you have such a fascinating combination of wisdom, practical sense, and sensitivity. My therapist really loves your posts.
> > Goodness, no. You're making perfect sense. If i ever felt that i was attracted sexually to my therapist, i'd be horrified. Because being sexually attracted is ok for women, but i'm not a woman. And it would be wrong and icky.
>
> Maybe you don’t need to worry. You probably won’t feel attracted to him as long as you aren’t a woman. If someday you become a woman, you might experience sexual attraction, but it might feel OK if you were a woman. And you might not feel attracted to *him*, especially if he’s not your type. And anyway, people don’t become women overnight... it takes most people a few years, at least! It takes time for the ickiness to be transformed into something more like desire.
>
Thank you for understanding, Tamar. It would take years and years and years and years, and he's not my type. Besides by then he'd be really really old. Too old for a brand new woman. :)
> > And if he were ever aroused in a session, even just because he was anxious, i'd need to take a bath for a year and a half because i'd never be able to believe he didn't think i was a woman.
>
> Is it possible that it’s not about you? I mean, he could get physically aroused just because of the subject matter or whatever, without actually thinking of you as a woman. I’m pretty sure it’s normal for everyone to have physiological feelings of arousal without the emotional feelings of desire for someone. So he could experience arousal in your presence without it having anything to do with you.
>
I think it'd be possible, but I wouldn't be able to shake the fear. Fortunately, I've never been aware of that happening, despite the subject matter. I don't think the subject matter can get any more arousing. So I think I can rely on him either being a eunuch or being able to pass as one in therapy. :)
>
> > I just have the sensations separated from any real meaning, because for me they have no real meaning.
>
> I really think that’s true for everyone to some extent. Often there’s no real meaning. It’s just that for you it seems as if you there’s pretty much never a connection between arousal and desire.
>
> > But... It'd be ok with my therapist if they did. In fact, I still think he'd consider it progress if I was sexually attracted to anyone, even him.
>
> Do you ever find *yourself* sexually attractive? I mean, I know it’s possible to enjoy erotic feelings while alone without really thinking about appearance, but do you like to look at yourself? (Don’t answer if it’s too personal.) I must admit, sometimes I like to look at myself, but other times I just don’t want to.
>
No, never. I hate the body I'm imprisoned in. I don't feel any feelings of ownership about it. It seems like the young pictures of me look like me, aging appropriately. Then wham. They don't look like me, older. They just don't look like me. I feel no sense of connection at all to the body I'm in today or pictures from fifteen or so on. I suddenly quit looking like Daddy and started looking like Mother. Probably the same time I stopped calling her Mama and started calling her Mother. Hmmmm...
>
> > I still think that sexual feelings (as opposed to sensations) in therapy may be linked somehow to feelings of safety to explore all parts of us. I think they're probably very therapeutic. But have the potential to be painful.
>
> Oh yes! And maybe that’s true of the sensations too. I suppose the sensations are very basic, but they can probably be therapeutic if they occur in a safe space. If arousal occurs because of anxiety but can be welcomed into a safe space, then perhaps it signals the possibility of arousal being associated with comfort. In a way, your therapist would be the idea person with whom to enjoy arousal-without-desire. I’m thinking of your suckling pup image. Apparently, small babies experience physiological arousal while breastfeeding... Maybe it could feel something like that.
>
> Or maybe I’m off the mark. But I love the idea of therapy being a safe place to feel aroused.
>
>
Ooh, I love that bit about the babies. So far I haven't exactly welcomed the sensations. Just noted them. But I do love that idea.
Posted by pinkeye on May 23, 2005, at 13:08:52
In reply to Re: One reason I wanted to post this » Tamar, posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 10:14:23
It is possible that it is your body's basic response. Even though intellectually you might deny that you are a woman - you ARE a woman. Physiologically. So your body will respond when it feels like. I think beyond a point, we really don't have too much control over our body's responses. So even though you think you are not a woman, and your therapist is not a man or not your type, I think finally it is your body's basic response to talking very intimately with another man. You may or may not like it, but I think you don't have that much control over yourself as you think you do.
Posted by pinkeye on May 23, 2005, at 13:45:19
In reply to Re: One reason I wanted to post this » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 23, 2005, at 13:08:52
Hi Dinah,
After rethinking, I think you are attracted to your therapist - at some level. Even though you are not aware of it, and might cringe at the mention of it.I think otherwise, it is not possible for someone to talk about other person endlessly. Like you have been doing here for atleast as far as I know (3 years??)
You might think you are not a woman, and he is not your type, and you might think that you are thinking of him as a big mommy figure etc, but I think basically you are pretty attracted to him.
It seems impossible to me, that I would want to talk about anyone for any lengths of time if I am not attracted to that person in some way. For instance, I have a new therapist now, who is a she, and I don't talk about her at all here, even though I basically like her.
Just the fact that you have been spending all your time in the past few years constantly thinking about your T and writing about him and analyzing his every gestures and reprocessing everything that happened with him - indicates to me that probably you are quite attracted to him deeply. Even though you yourself may not be aware of it. It is nothing bad, but just something to think about.
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 14:26:56
In reply to A blind guess » pinkeye, posted by pinkeye on May 23, 2005, at 13:45:19
I tried it at some point. It's such a cliche, you know? So I tried to fantasize about him. Just didn't go anywhere for me.
Little girls have physiological reactions, just like little boys do. Any mom of very little children can tell you that. You don't have to have a grown up body to be aroused. I have very clear memories of physiological responses that at the time I didn't understand more than to know they felt good.
What you say may be true of some people. But what's true of some people isn't true of all people. It's not true of me.
I'm perfectly capable of obsessing about any number of things. :) I stay up late and watch Dr. Bob administrate. But I'm not attracted to Dr. Bob either. (Sorry Dr. Bob) And.. Well, I'd better not go there.
Sometimes a banana is just a banana.
Although I do think my therapist was wrong (and right). My extra sensitivity to sensation follows through to this area as well, and my experiences are probably not typical. But I'm not upping the mood stabilizer even more, and making myself even groggier, just for this.
Posted by pinkeye on May 23, 2005, at 14:35:33
In reply to Nope » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 23, 2005, at 14:26:56
Ok. Maybe what you are saying is what is right for you. I was perhaps coming at it from a more general perspective.
I have never obsessed about anyone in my life if it was not some sort of attraction. Maybe once when I was a kid, I used to obsess about my teacher and she was a lady. But other than that, I don't remember ever obsessing about anyone in a non sexual way. So it is very hard for me to comprehend it. I have liked lot of people (men and women) non sexually. I have couple of male friends who I am not attracted to at all - just good friends. But I don't obsess about them. In fact I don't even think about them. So it feels very weird to me that someone can obsess about a person in this way.
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