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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 45. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 14:56:03
I'm usually very aware of when I'm posting as me (points to head) as opposed to me (points to gut). Just as I'm aware in real life.
It always astonishes me that people around me can't really tell. My therapist can almost always, even over the phone. But no one else much notices, although my husband asks me what's wrong sometimes.
Is it really unnoticeable, do you think? Or do people just not say anything?
Posted by pinkeye on May 1, 2005, at 15:08:13
In reply to (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?), posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 14:56:03
People usually just take us in face value. They go by what we say, they never try to see through us and understand what we really mean as opposed to what we say.
But mostly women, they expect others to understand what they really mean, instead of what they say. We expect others to understand every nuance about us, and it just doesn't work that way.
I didn't understand it myself for a long time. People just don't look that deep into anyone, even if they know you so very well. Only therapists are in that job and they are consntanly looking beneath the surface. And even that, many therapists take us at face value. Nobody else is really that competent.
Posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 15:22:19
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 1, 2005, at 15:08:13
I guess I do see it as face value. :)
My therapist says that's just not the explanation that comes to the minds of most people.
It just sort of always amazes me.
But then, I also feel no real connection to my physical body, either. My physical body is this person who looks like my mother. I am sooooo not that person.
Posted by Tamar on May 1, 2005, at 16:14:11
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 15:22:19
It might be more obvious in real life, where there’s body language and tone of voice, than on Babble, where things like that may be inferred from language but aren’t so overt.
It’s interesting that you describe your physical body as a person who looks like your mother. Do you look down at yourself and see your mother? Is your resistance to adulthood connected to this resemblance to your mother?
Posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 16:28:08
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » Dinah, posted by Tamar on May 1, 2005, at 16:14:11
> It might be more obvious in real life, where there’s body language and tone of voice, than on Babble, where things like that may be inferred from language but aren’t so overt.
Hmmmm... Perhaps so. And sometimes it's more obvious than others even here. You know, I think part of it is just a desire to be *seen* or *known*. Something like that. I remember how I felt the first time my therapist *knew*. I never ever told him. Not unless he asked.
>
> It’s interesting that you describe your physical body as a person who looks like your mother. Do you look down at yourself and see your mother? Is your resistance to adulthood connected to this resemblance to your mother?
>Undoubtedly. On many levels. Some absolutely weird and Freudian, some a lot more superficial and obvious. We're exploring the weird Freudian ones right now, and it's leaving me quite anxious between sessions. I so want my therapist to understand, but I guess it's unfair of me. He's been asking some tentative reality testing questions though, and I'm not sure I like that. I guess I'm not supposed to recognize reality testing questions.
But yes. It is a serious misfortune that I so closely resemble my mother.
People tell me that sometimes, and I always think "How can they think that's a polite or acceptable thing to say?"
Posted by daisym on May 1, 2005, at 17:19:44
In reply to (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?), posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 14:56:03
I think I can tell sometimes. The words are put together differently and there usually are several posts in a row. It is easier to tell in Open though.
My kids know when something is different. One usually hugs me and the other is much more protective and helpful. Doesn't take long to snap back when they are around though.
Posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 17:26:30
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » Dinah, posted by daisym on May 1, 2005, at 17:19:44
Thanks Daisy. (beam)
I wasn't aware of the post quantity, but it may well be true.
I'm not sure what my son thinks. I think sometimes he thinks I'm a lot more fun, but when I'm upset, I think he gets protective.
I try not to be upset in front of him. I'm never sure if that's the right thing to do, but I don't want him to worry about me.
Posted by Shortelise on May 1, 2005, at 17:31:14
In reply to (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?), posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 14:56:03
I am especially aware when I am writing from my gut, just letting the feelings pour forth.
I guess I know when some others are. Some seem to always post from one place or another.
WHen you ask if it's noticeable - do you mean here? Yes, I think it is. And that we don't point it out, should we?
I'm not sensitive about this. Are you?
ShortE
Posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 17:35:57
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » Dinah, posted by Shortelise on May 1, 2005, at 17:31:14
No, I don't need it pointed out.
I just wondered.
I can be a bit eccentric sometimes.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 1, 2005, at 19:01:08
In reply to (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?), posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 14:56:03
I can tell when you are getting distressed and writing from your gut.
I notice it mostly on admin.
You write with more rhetorical force and your writing has a more emotive quality to it. It is very different from when you are writing more logically and rationally - even though I can tell that you are still upset or whatever.
I think...
In a way it has to do with how upset you are feeling.
But then maybe that is what it is. Sometimes you are really upset and in emotional mode. Othertimes you are still upset but perhaps not as much so and then you write more from your rational mode.
I notice this in myself too...
Sometimes I seem to lose the rational mode altogether.
But for me... That tends to result in a civility warning ;-)
Posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 19:30:34
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on May 1, 2005, at 19:01:08
Sometimes it's when I'm upset. And the most obvious examples are from before you started posting, I think.
But that's not it always. Sometimes it's not that at all. It's more than about being upset. That's not the only thing it is.
Also, I (pointing to my head) get pretty upset as well, so I'm not sure... Not just rationally upset either. Head about to blow up upset.
Oh, I'm a contrary soul. I often want to stamp my feet and post obvious examples. And not just bad ones. I (pointing to my gut) am not just "the beast". I'm also the playful, earnest, head tilted to one side, gazing half shyly from under my lashes...
Oh blast.
I'm so contrary. Sometimes I'm so ashamed, but sometimes I just want to be "seen". And then I get ashamed again. And afraid.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 1, 2005, at 19:56:35
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 19:30:34
> Sometimes it's when I'm upset. And the most obvious examples are from before you started posting, I think.
Ok. I guess I can only go by what I have seen / read. But sometimes it is fairly clear to me just on the basis of what I have seen.
> But that's not it always. Sometimes it's not that at all. It's more than about being upset. That's not the only thing it is.Yup. I guess thats just when it is most obvious to me.
> Also, I (pointing to my head) get pretty upset as well, so I'm not sure... Not just rationally upset either. Head about to blow up upset.Yeah. But I think that you tend to post more in a logical style when rational you is more in control. Still mad, still upset, I can tell that by the tone, but what you write is still more rational.
> Oh, I'm a contrary soul. I often want to stamp my feet and post obvious examples. And not just bad ones. I (pointing to my gut) am not just "the beast". I'm also the playful, earnest, head tilted to one side, gazing half shyly from under my lashes...
Sure :-)
I think I get you a bit more.> Oh blast.
> I'm so contrary. Sometimes I'm so ashamed, but sometimes I just want to be "seen". And then I get ashamed again. And afraid.I feel like that sometimes too.
Different aspects of me post.
But they post so regularly that people probably don't recognise them as different aspects.
They are probably more integrated in other peoples minds than they are in my own.Different parts on different boards even.
I used to really worry that one would start posting under another posting name.
But I have faith that Dr Bob would figure that out and block them.
So.
They seem to post under my name which is better than the alternative (I don't want to get blocked but I understand that would happen if they started doing that and persisted in it).But I don't like it at all.
And yeah, there is a lot of shame there.
Posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 20:59:29
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on May 1, 2005, at 19:56:35
> I feel like that sometimes too.
> Different aspects of me post.
> But they post so regularly that people probably don't recognise them as different aspects.
> They are probably more integrated in other peoples minds than they are in my own.Or like my therapist said, other explanations are more likely to occur to people.
>
> Different parts on different boards even.
> I used to really worry that one would start posting under another posting name.
> But I have faith that Dr Bob would figure that out and block them.
> So.
> They seem to post under my name which is better than the alternative (I don't want to get blocked but I understand that would happen if they started doing that and persisted in it).
>
> But I don't like it at all.I wouldn't either. Fortunately that's not an issue with me. Would you know? I imagine that not having full co-consciousness would be scary.
>
> And yeah, there is a lot of shame there.
>
>
Yeah. On all gradations of the spectrum. It's a shame really.Every once in a while I get in an activist mode. But then I sit down and shut up again.
Posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 21:00:36
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?), posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 20:59:29
Posted by alexandra_k on May 1, 2005, at 22:05:30
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?), posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 20:59:29
> Or like my therapist said, other explanations are more likely to occur to people.
Yeah, I guess so. The default assumption is to try to make sense of one body as one person (or self) or one posting name as one person (or self) - so that is what we try and do. We just come to see that body or poster as 'variable' or something like that.
> Would you know?Do you mean would I know if they posted under my name, or if I would know if they registered under a new name?
Sometimes I find posts (under my name) that I don't remember writing. Sometimes I think Babble is a bit of a journal for me. In reading some of those posts I can figure out what they are up to.
I'm not sure whether I would know if they registered under a new name. I have found out about this once. I emailed Dr Bob and that posting name was blocked. I worry about that a bit. That they would stabotage things for me. Sometimes I have wondered whether newbies that I have greeted were them really. So I follow their posts around a bit till I figure that they are not them - but actually are a newbie.
>I imagine that not having full co-consciousness would be scary.
Yeah.
> Every once in a while I get in an activist mode. But then I sit down and shut up again.
?
How do you mean?
Posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 23:46:43
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on May 1, 2005, at 22:05:30
I just mean that sometimes I decide to work to show that it's really nothing to be ashamed of. That people should just be accepted as they are.
Then I lose faith that there's nothing to be ashamed of and shut up.
But I really shouldn't complain. Whatever happens with me is very mild, and I've worked out a relatively good system of coping. And of course I have a really accepting therapist who helps me use my voice so that things don't get too bottled up.
Most of the time I'm fairly content.
But sometimes I want more.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 2, 2005, at 8:52:04
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 1, 2005, at 15:08:13
> But mostly women, they expect others to understand what they really mean, instead of what they say. We expect others to understand every nuance about us, and it just doesn't work that way.
Can I get than on a t-shirt?
Lar
Posted by pinkeye on May 2, 2005, at 12:59:52
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » pinkeye, posted by Larry Hoover on May 2, 2005, at 8:52:04
You may :-)
But don't you guys love women for what they are? If women were as straight forward as you, it would make life less interesting wouldn't it? :-)
Posted by Susan47 on May 2, 2005, at 13:12:42
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » pinkeye, posted by Larry Hoover on May 2, 2005, at 8:52:04
Do you think it's any different for women, about men? I don't wear T-shirts, IMO they're ugly as sin, they're a crime. So're sweatpants. You can tattoo that on my butt.
Posted by 10derHeart on May 2, 2005, at 14:21:31
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » Larry Hoover, posted by Susan47 on May 2, 2005, at 13:12:42
Well, my dear, if I didn't love ya' to death and feel I *get* you here...I could be quite hurt right now. I could say, "why thank you, I'll have to remember I look ugly as sin." But I always give the benefit of the doubt you meant that *for you* not for everyone.
Alas, I am so totally a T-shirt and jeans (and sweatpants, too - which I <gasp> even wear out in public sometimes)gal. Always have been.
Although I wear other types of clothes, too. I clean up pretty nice when I really try, but mostly only on Sunday mornings these days.
You may be right, anyway :-( A lot of it, for me, is trying to hide a large weight gain. And my nice clothes are now too tight and I can't afford to replace them :-(
Susan - I know you didn't mean anything rude. It's not your way. But that hit too close to home anyway.
PS - Will you please sell tickets if Lar decides to tattoo anything on your butt? I wish to observe that, please ;-)
Posted by Susan47 on May 2, 2005, at 15:31:16
In reply to Re: (Can I ask y'all something sensitive?) » Susan47, posted by 10derHeart on May 2, 2005, at 14:21:31
You're right. But you know, what you said about "clean up pretty nice"? I think that's the bias.. it doesn't Look Clean. I mean, the clothes can be absolutely brand-new, spiffy clean, ironed even, if you like, with a crease exactly in the middle, right there, in those stretch pants with the elastic ankles. But somehow, the idea that the person who's in them cares to take That Much, just That Much time with their appearance (remember you never get a second chance to make a first impression), well, I believe that's why I'm so biased against that clothing. I'm not kidding, I see a guy wearing the same outfit he could've jogged in, sweaty and smelly as sin, at the bank, and I just feel like gagging. It's the whole concept of how important are those who lay eyes on ME? Do I have a responsibility to appear clean, well-groomed, presentable? Not to stink?
I've been out with a few slobs. So yeah, I'm totally prejudiced. I'll admit it. None of it might even make sense to you. You could argue till you're blue in the face, even, really reasonably, and it would make no difference to me. Not one whit. Because aesthetics are really important to me. Not overwhelmingly so, as in, my nails are sometimes chipped and I have the occasional bout with exczema, it looks terrible. I wear hats because I can't stand the look of the hair I cut myself.
But I'm clean, and I try to look that way.
:-)
Posted by 10derHeart on May 2, 2005, at 16:07:34
In reply to I'm Sorry Tenderheart, I was too Aggressive » 10derHeart, posted by Susan47 on May 2, 2005, at 15:31:16
I wouldn't call it agressive, exactly.
I do understand everything you said, and agree in principle. I used to agree in practice - like 95% of my life. That was 50+ pounds ago.
Not now. The simple problem is being overweight makes me hate my physical self. Loathe is even a better word. No amount of harping on me that it's what's inside that counts ever helps. I can't even get close to believing that - *about me*. Hah, maybe that's yet another reason Babble is so safe for me. Even though I may admit to it, y'all don't have to LOOK at me, thank goodness.
So, no, when I detest myself, clothed and unclothed, and think no one should have to be ever forced to look at me, I don't give a dam* about my appearance a good portion of my life. Not at all. I mean, I draw the line at the clean thing. I know what you meant and how it just doesn't always *seem* clean, but fact remains, I am clean, no matter the clothes. You can get up real close and do a smell test, if you like. Fresh, I promise :-)
As I was implying, this issue is big. Okay, it's giagantic for me. I wouldn't even touch it with my ex-T. and you do remember how much I adore(d) him. But, partly because I was attracted to him (sorry-don't you get triggered now - I forbid it!) I was mortified to talk about body image, weight, overeating and all that. Just would have had to hide under the furniture and pass him notes. Can you picture that? Because if I talked about it, I was terrified I'd look up, and he be glancing, whereas before I was just me - a me I thought he respected and liked - and instead he'd be really *seeing* and thinking, "OMG, I forgot to notice that roll, and the double chin, and...."
And of course, that would mean he'd find me disgusting. No projection, there, eh?
Oh dear, I've lost it here. This is awful. I won't talk to my T. now about this either. Though I imagine it's slightly important to talk about both something I swear I WON'T talk about, and something that makes me despise myself down to the core.
It's so ridiculous. Over half my female friends -and a couple males - are moderately to seriously overweight. I adore them. I rarely if ever think of their weight, and only in passing, or if they put themselves down. Yet I can give so many reasons I am different.
I've gone on a self-pitying tangent.
I've probably offended people.
I apologize.
Susan, nothing you said was that bad.
I've badly highjacked Dinah's thread. (sorry :-( )I should not Babble for a while.
I seem to have little control over triggers and their resulting emotional outbursts.
I'm leaving.
Maybe late tonight I'll get control of myself.
Everyone, please disregard me.
Venting doesn't even begin to describe this.
Posted by Dinah on May 2, 2005, at 16:26:51
In reply to Re: I'm Sorry Tenderheart, I was too Aggressive » Susan47, posted by 10derHeart on May 2, 2005, at 16:07:34
Silly. You haven't hijacked anything. Watching threads meander is one of the fun parts of Babble.
I always think that whatever I don't want to talk about is what I should talk about. I'm 50+ overweight too, and I detest my body - although it's mainly because the extra weight makes me look like my mom.
It's funny because weight and body image is one of those issues you'd think therapists would bring up naturally, in the course of getting to know you. Yet they don't. Taboo?
The down side is that my therapist and I have discussed this a million times and it doesn't have any effect. :(
Posted by Tamar on May 2, 2005, at 16:54:58
In reply to Re: I'm Sorry Tenderheart, I was too Aggressive » Susan47, posted by 10derHeart on May 2, 2005, at 16:07:34
> Not now. The simple problem is being overweight makes me hate my physical self. Loathe is even a better word. No amount of harping on me that it's what's inside that counts ever helps. I can't even get close to believing that - *about me*. Hah, maybe that's yet another reason Babble is so safe for me. Even though I may admit to it, y'all don't have to LOOK at me, thank goodness.
Your post struck a chord with me, possibly because I weighed myself today (which I don’t normally do) and I’m well over 220 pounds (I’d like to be 170). I’ve never bought that stuff about what’s inside that counts. That sounds as if we should accept that we’re physically unacceptable. Surely it’s better to hope that we can come to accept our physical selves as they are, and not as mere shells for our personalities?
> As I was implying, this issue is big. Okay, it's giagantic for me. I wouldn't even touch it with my ex-T. and you do remember how much I adore(d) him. But, partly because I was attracted to him (sorry-don't you get triggered now - I forbid it!) I was mortified to talk about body image, weight, overeating and all that. Just would have had to hide under the furniture and pass him notes. Can you picture that? Because if I talked about it, I was terrified I'd look up, and he be glancing, whereas before I was just me - a me I thought he respected and liked - and instead he'd be really *seeing* and thinking, "OMG, I forgot to notice that roll, and the double chin, and...."
>
> And of course, that would mean he'd find me disgusting. No projection, there, eh?I can indeed picture it. I did talk to my T about my loathing for my body (largely because I was avoiding any discussion of my attraction to him). And guess what? He was great. And yes, I watched his body language very closely to detect signs that he might suddenly notice how unattractive I was. But oddly, the reverse seemed to be the case. I guess there’s something in that cliché that confidence is sexy. The better I felt about my body, the better I felt the rapport between us was. I’d bet my house that your current T will not think you are loathsome, if you can bear to broach the subject.
> It's so ridiculous. Over half my female friends -and a couple males - are moderately to seriously overweight. I adore them. I rarely if ever think of their weight, and only in passing, or if they put themselves down. Yet I can give so many reasons I am different.
We’re always harder on ourselves!
> I've gone on a self-pitying tangent.
Not self-pitying. Sorrow. Perfectly natural.> I've probably offended people.
Not me.> I apologize.
No need.> I should not Babble for a while.
> I seem to have little control over triggers and their resulting emotional outbursts.Isn’t that the point about triggers? It’s hard to feel any sense of control? Perhaps all the more reason why you should Babble!
> I'm leaving.
> Maybe late tonight I'll get control of myself.
> Everyone, please disregard me.
> Venting doesn't even begin to describe this.(((((10der)))))
Vent all you want/need.
Posted by anastasia56 on May 2, 2005, at 18:25:45
In reply to Re: I'm Sorry Tenderheart, I was too Aggressive » Susan47, posted by 10derHeart on May 2, 2005, at 16:07:34
i understand what you are saying and i love your 10derheart...
ana
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