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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fallsfall on December 13, 2004, at 12:43:56
I hate it when I can't do therapy right.
It is supposed to be possible to do it right.
He's supposed to have the answers.
He is supposed to tell the answers to me.
I don't even know what the question is.
So I guess... and guess...
The answer is... 42
Nope. You're doomed. You're an idiot. Try again...
The answer is... Yes
Nope. You're doomed. You're an idiot. Try again...
The answer is... 3 miles down, take a right, and then a left
Nope. You're doomed. You're an idiot. Try again...
The answer is... A half century of balletic decline in America
Nope. You're doomed. You're an idiot. Try again...
The answer is... Mesmerizing shapes, patterns and movements
Nope. You're doomed. You're an idiot. Try again...
The answer is... Jump
Nope. You're doomed. You're an idiot. Try again...
The answer is... Hexidecimal
Nope. You're doomed. You're an idiot. Try again...
The answer is... Chocolate
Nope. You're doomed. You're an idiot. Try again...
The answer is... Speak with passion
Nope. You're doomed. You're an idiot. Try again...
The answer is... Soft and furry
Nope. You're doomed. You're an idiot. Try again...I'm not allowed to give up.
Posted by annierose on December 13, 2004, at 17:09:40
In reply to Nope., posted by fallsfall on December 13, 2004, at 12:43:56
Hi Fallsfall -
Sorry you are not feeling too well right now.
Please don't beat yourself up. There isn't a right way to do therapy. And you are not supposed to have the answers, nor your therapist ... as frustrating as that might be. I know I wish sometimes my T would just give some, but how would she know what was right for me, but me. But I do think that she can ask some questions (in a guided, or not so guided way) that help us answer our own questions. You are not an idiot, please don't say that about yourself. I always find your posts very insightful and kind hearted. This is a hard journey (therapy) and full of bumps along the way. I, too, go to a psychodynamic T and it's hard work (all types of therapy are). But you are digging deep and that can sometimes bring up old hurts. Thinking of you. Annie
Posted by gardenergirl on December 13, 2004, at 19:00:38
In reply to Re: Nope. » fallsfall, posted by annierose on December 13, 2004, at 17:09:40
Falls,
Your post sounds like therapy is incredibly frustrating right now. I'm sorry it's rough. Although I know I've heard others say that this type of frustration can occur right before something big breaks. I hope it is leading to progress and perhaps growth ;) for you.Hang in there,
gg
Posted by Aphrodite on December 13, 2004, at 19:53:35
In reply to Nope., posted by fallsfall on December 13, 2004, at 12:43:56
You have stated your frustrations very well. Why can't therapy just be progressive and linear and quantifiable? Teachers, other doctors, parents -- they give us the answers when we ask; they tell us what we should do. That can be so comforting.
I'm sorry you're having such a hard time. However, I am *very* pleased you're not allowed to give up. I'm glad your T won't let you.
Posted by messadivoce on December 13, 2004, at 21:40:15
In reply to Nope., posted by fallsfall on December 13, 2004, at 12:43:56
Hi Fallsfall
I hope you're feeling better. Wow I certainly know where you're coming from. Seems like you can never win sometimes. Hang in there and take good care of yourself (my T always used to say that and I think it's good advice).
Voce
Posted by daisym on December 14, 2004, at 0:34:44
In reply to Nope., posted by fallsfall on December 13, 2004, at 12:43:56
"Never give up! Never surrender!"
I'm sorry it is sooo hard and frustrating. I think you are on to something, it just eludes you at this point. And you asked your therapist to push you, so he is, but maybe not gently enough?
I've been stuck in my own spiral enough lately to know how incredibly hard it is to break free and see what we are doing to ourselves. It is like the next step up is 10 feet and we can only jump 9...enough to peak over the ledge but not enough to quite get there. Even when we know we are jumping up and down, we can't seem to stop ourselves.
You told me recently that I was in a boat, running back and forth from end to end, frantically trying to get to shore. But that what I needed to do was sit down, stay still and realize that I'm in a boat and it will capsize if I'm not careful. After I accept that I'm in the boat, THEN I can figure out how to get to shore.
This helped me settle down, out of the frantic pace. Can you try it too? I'm still in the da*n boat, but I feel like I can at least see the oar that might help me get to shore.
Mostly, I guess I want you to know I'm here to listen. Nothing you could say here would be wrong.
(((Falls)))
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 14, 2004, at 0:56:48
In reply to Nope., posted by fallsfall on December 13, 2004, at 12:43:56
> I hate it when I can't do therapy right.
>
> It is supposed to be possible to do it right.
>
> He's supposed to have the answers.
>
> He is supposed to tell the answers to me.
>
> I don't even know what the question is.
>
> So I guess... and guess...
>
> The answer is... 42
> Nope. You're doomed. You're an idiot. Try again...
> The answer is... Yes
> Nope. You're doomed. You're an idiot. Try again...
> The answer is... 3 miles down, take a right, and then a left
> Nope. You're doomed. You're an idiot. Try again...
> The answer is...ICE CREAM!!!YES!! You are a caring, intuitive and really smart person and I'm sorry I know nothing of therapy, but do I know you are feeling crappy.
(((Falls)))
Posted by fallsfall on December 14, 2004, at 12:31:19
In reply to Re: Nope. » fallsfall, posted by annierose on December 13, 2004, at 17:09:40
> Hi Fallsfall -
> Sorry you are not feeling too well right now.
> Please don't beat yourself up. There isn't a right way to do therapy.*** I know there isn't a right way, but it seems like there is a *wrong* way - and it just feels like I tend to find the wrong way.
And you are not supposed to have the answers, nor your therapist ... as frustrating as that might be. I know I wish sometimes my T would just give some, but how would she know what was right for me, but me. But I do think that she can ask some questions (in a guided, or not so guided way) that help us answer our own questions.
*** But eventually he has very solid ideas about what is "helpful" and what is "not helpful". Or I'll say something and I can tell that he is disappointed that I am thinking that way. I know I don't know how to make good choices (if I did, I wouldn't need to be there), but I have no reference for making other choices. Am I supposed to choose the thing that makes no sense to me? That doesn't make much sense either.
You are not an idiot, please don't say that about yourself. I always find your posts very insightful and kind hearted. This is a hard journey (therapy) and full of bumps along the way. I, too, go to a psychodynamic T and it's hard work (all types of therapy are). But you are digging deep and that can sometimes bring up old hurts. Thinking of you. Annie
*** Thanks, Annie.
Posted by fallsfall on December 14, 2004, at 12:37:16
In reply to Re: Nope., posted by gardenergirl on December 13, 2004, at 19:00:38
> Falls,
> Your post sounds like therapy is incredibly frustrating right now. I'm sorry it's rough. Although I know I've heard others say that this type of frustration can occur right before something big breaks. I hope it is leading to progress and perhaps growth ;) for you.
>
> Hang in there,
> ggThanks, GG. I hope so too. I've been in this transference before, so hopefully I'll at least work through some of it now. The last time we stayed in it for a long, long time and it was really painful. Somehow, the second half of December doesn't seem like great timing for this...
It is clear enough to me that most of this is transference, so I hope that I can step back enough to see the transference for the reality. At least I understand the process (what transference is, and how it gets resolved) - that helps.
Thanks.
Posted by fallsfall on December 14, 2004, at 12:42:19
In reply to Re: Nope. » fallsfall, posted by Aphrodite on December 13, 2004, at 19:53:35
> You have stated your frustrations very well. Why can't therapy just be progressive and linear and quantifiable? Teachers, other doctors, parents -- they give us the answers when we ask; they tell us what we should do. That can be so comforting.
>
> I'm sorry you're having such a hard time. However, I am *very* pleased you're not allowed to give up. I'm glad your T won't let you.I know that he is skilled and caring. And much better able to help me through this than my previous therapist (I got this way with her, too). I will admit, sometime, however to wishing he would give in a little (he keeps telling me that he is less stubborn than I am, I'm not sure he has shown me that yet). I know that once we get into this, there is no giving up - it won't just go away, it won't be ignored, it won't take a vacation (drat!). Oh joy!
Posted by fallsfall on December 14, 2004, at 12:45:02
In reply to Re: Nope., posted by messadivoce on December 13, 2004, at 21:40:15
> Hi Fallsfall
> I hope you're feeling better. Wow I certainly know where you're coming from. Seems like you can never win sometimes. Hang in there and take good care of yourself (my T always used to say that and I think it's good advice).
> VoceThanks. I don't lose gracefully, so I really don't like lose-lose situations. Taking care of myself is good advice. I am trying to be reasonable with my expectations for myself (always hard in December). I stopped to get some ice cream this morning, and there was junk all over the top of the ice cream cabinet, and I didn't see the kind I wanted anyway! I'll have to try again tomorrow.
Posted by fallsfall on December 14, 2004, at 12:55:10
In reply to Re: Nope., posted by daisym on December 14, 2004, at 0:34:44
> "Never give up! Never surrender!"
>
> I'm sorry it is sooo hard and frustrating. I think you are on to something, it just eludes you at this point. And you asked your therapist to push you, so he is, but maybe not gently enough?*** He pushed but now it is out of his hands. And I don't know if he could reach me to slow my spiraling descent. I've been here before, so I know it is something I have to work through, and I also know how excruciating this transference is for me...
>
> I've been stuck in my own spiral enough lately to know how incredibly hard it is to break free and see what we are doing to ourselves. It is like the next step up is 10 feet and we can only jump 9...enough to peak over the ledge but not enough to quite get there. Even when we know we are jumping up and down, we can't seem to stop ourselves.
>
*** I am slipping down the slide, and there is *NO* friction to slow me down. I can't even jump - that might let me feel some kind of control, rather than this freefall.
> You told me recently that I was in a boat, running back and forth from end to end, frantically trying to get to shore. But that what I needed to do was sit down, stay still and realize that I'm in a boat and it will capsize if I'm not careful. After I accept that I'm in the boat, THEN I can figure out how to get to shore.
>
Yes, I need to stop being frantic enough to see what is going on. But as soon as I start to see anything it seems like *TRANSFERENCE* takes over from reality and it has a life of its own. At least I can tell that what I'm saying doesn't make a lot of sense realistically - so I *know* it is transference. That is a step in the right direction. But it definately takes over and goes where it wants to go.
> This helped me settle down, out of the frantic pace. Can you try it too? I'm still in the da*n boat, but I feel like I can at least see the oar that might help me get to shore.
>
*** Good. I'm glad it helped you. I am trying to stay very aware that it *is* transference. That he isn't really playing a game with me where he makes up the rules as we go along. That there isn't a "right answer" (gosh, that is hard for me).> Mostly, I guess I want you to know I'm here to listen. Nothing you could say here would be wrong.
>
> (((Falls)))Thanks, Daisy. I'm glad you are here. That does help.
Posted by fallsfall on December 14, 2004, at 12:57:03
In reply to Re: Nope., posted by Gabbix2 on December 14, 2004, at 0:56:48
> > The answer is...ICE CREAM!!!
>
> YES!! You are a caring, intuitive and really smart person and I'm sorry I know nothing of therapy, but do I know you are feeling crappy.
>
> (((Falls)))
>
>
>
Now why didn't I think of *that* answer???Thanks for the hugs.
>
Posted by annierose on December 14, 2004, at 13:58:30
In reply to Re: Nope. » annierose, posted by fallsfall on December 14, 2004, at 12:31:19
I do understand what you are going through. I do think some T's do have a strong opinion of what they would like us to do (or think what would be in our best interest). And like you, sometimes I wish I knew how to do this. But in my heart, I know, at any given point in time, I can only expect that I openly communicate, without editing (or leaving out important details :) That is my session by session goal, but it is hard. Today I finally told my T something I've been struggling with forever, but never had the courage. For the first 15 minutes, I sat there, agitated, trying to get it out. I would start, stop, stop, try to start. She tried to help. Finally I just got it out (face turning bright red, probably hives down my neck). Now I'll have to face this again on Thursday (ugh!) ... when does it stop? Didn't mean to change the subject. My point is that most of us do struggle, want to do therapy "right". At the end of the day, a bowl of ice cream (or a glass of wine) helps.
Posted by fallsfall on December 16, 2004, at 17:56:05
In reply to Re: Nope. » fallsfall, posted by annierose on December 14, 2004, at 13:58:30
Thanks, Annie. And congrats on spitting out your hard topic! I hope things went well for you today.
Posted by fallsfall on December 16, 2004, at 18:08:37
In reply to Re: Nope. » annierose, posted by fallsfall on December 16, 2004, at 17:56:05
I have spent since Monday so afraid of going to my session today. I didn't want to sink back into the transference - it is SO painful. As I thought over the last couple of days it was clearer and clearer to me that there was some serious transference going on. That there was no logical, rational explanation for my feelings. Almost like I was manufacturing facts out of thin air (I expected him to feel a particular way, therefore he must have felt that way).
I started the session telling him that there was clearly transference on Monday. He agreed that my behavior and trains of thought on Monday were not typical for me. I talked about assumptions that I seemed to be making and told him some stories from my childhood. I am starting to understand clearer that most people's world really is a lot more flexible than mine is.
It went well until we started talking concretely about what I could do to move forward. He made a suggestion that sent a wave of terror through me - and that surprised both of us. Then, as I was leaving I was scared that tomorrow I will go in and he'll tell me that I was too intellectual today (and so I would have failed therapy for the day...). He wouldn't promise me that he won't say tomorrow that I was too intellectual today...
So I stayed out of the transference (most of the session at least), and it seemed to me like we made a little progress. I tried really hard not to avoid the issue - hopefully I was successful.
Posted by Dinah on December 16, 2004, at 21:39:16
In reply to Transference at bay, posted by fallsfall on December 16, 2004, at 18:08:37
It sounds as if that was one heck of a productive session. And I noticed from your first post that you have an extraordinarily good handle on what's happening. When I understand something that well it always seems less overwhelming to me. Still distressing, but not as overwhelming.
Here's hoping you can keep it at bay. (Does garlic work on transference?)
Posted by daisym on December 17, 2004, at 0:03:56
In reply to Transference at bay, posted by fallsfall on December 16, 2004, at 18:08:37
No, he won't promise you but it sounds like you were very productive. I don't think you avoid the subject at all.
Sometimes after a session that has a heavy duty emotional component you need to process the last session. Which means intellectualizing has its place.
I agree with Dinah. You do sound like you can see what is happening even if you can't prevent it completely. And it sounds like at this point at least, you are keeping yourself from going completely under. I hope tomorrow's session is at least as successful.
Here is a hug for support.
(((Fallsfall)))
Posted by gardenergirl on December 17, 2004, at 8:17:09
In reply to Re: Transference at bay » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on December 16, 2004, at 21:39:16
> Here's hoping you can keep it at bay. (Does garlic work on transference?)
LOL, I'll get started on those necklaces right now. Dinah, I think you've hit on a huge money-maker!;)
gg
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