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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by eugenia on November 27, 2004, at 14:00:08
I began therapy because I didn't want to get married but didn't know whether I could trust myself. Eventually my ex and I saw the therapist as a couple and then finally she started seeing him alone. Is that ethical? I still feel kind of angry, though I know it is just a waste of time to be angry about the past. I feel that it was just a crazy situation. And after I left my then-husband she asked him if he would object to him seeing me. I know that I am not perfect, in fact I hate myself for the way I acted towards my ex, but should the therapist really have treated my ex?
Posted by Shortelise on November 27, 2004, at 19:17:48
In reply to Need advice on therapist boundaries, posted by eugenia on November 27, 2004, at 14:00:08
Eugenia, I can't figure your post out - too many him's, her's and she's -- I don't know who is who! Forgive me my denseness please, and rewrite it for "dummies" so I can read and respsond.
:-)
ShortE
Posted by eugenia on November 27, 2004, at 19:46:34
In reply to Re: Need advice on therapist boundaries, posted by Shortelise on November 27, 2004, at 19:17:48
Thanks for responding! Sorry I was so confusing.
Basically my therapist started seeing my then-husband as a private patient. I was still in therapy with her at the time. In fact, I started seeing this therapist when my then-husband proposed to me, because I didn't think I wanted to get married, and was very confused. I divorced my husband and my therapist continued to see him, and even asked my ex-husband what she should do if I called her again for a session.
Basically, I feel kind of burned by this whole experience.
Posted by fallsfall on November 27, 2004, at 20:36:04
In reply to Re: Need advice on therapist boundaries, posted by eugenia on November 27, 2004, at 19:46:34
My therapists have told me that they wouldn't treat people who I knew (i.e. friends) because there would be a conflict of interest.
If I'm understanding your post, you went into therapy with her. Then the guy in your life joined you in therapy (so the therapist was treating both of you - or treating the relationship). Then the guy started seeing her individually, while you were also seeing her individually? Sometimes therapists work for a relationship, but have individual sessions with the people in the relationship. I would think that once your marriage ended, that she would have to choose to see one or the other of you - but that she couldn't see both of you.
Did you and she agree to migrate from your therapy to couples therapy? Did you stop seeing her while he kept going?
It does seem a bit messy...
Posted by eugenia on November 27, 2004, at 21:07:52
In reply to Re: Need advice on therapist boundaries » eugenia, posted by fallsfall on November 27, 2004, at 20:36:04
Thanks for your reply!
I started seeing this therapist when i was struggling with whether to get married. We brought him in for one session, but it wasn't really couples therapy. Then he started seeing her individually for his own self esteem issues. After I left him he continued to see this therapist and he told me that she told him that I was borderline. I probably am, but don't need her to dispense that nugget of information to my ex. What a mess.
I guess I am dwelling on this now because I wish I had acted differently, and feel that if I had been less confused I would not have gotten married and would have saved everybody loads of pain.
I guess I am still angry.
I wish I could just accept.
At least now I have an excellent therapist who is helping me recover from all of that bad therapy!
Posted by Skittles on November 27, 2004, at 21:30:10
In reply to Re: Need advice on therapist boundaries, posted by eugenia on November 27, 2004, at 21:07:52
In my opinion, this therapist committed a privacy violation by sharing that bit of imformation about you. I also think she is on shaky ethical ground by continuing to see your ex. She saw *you* first and on a regular basis, so you should be the one that is her client. Have you considered reporting her?
Posted by peacefeline on November 27, 2004, at 21:40:16
In reply to Re: Need advice on therapist boundaries, posted by eugenia on November 27, 2004, at 21:07:52
Wow...that really sounds like an ethics breach to me, for her to tell your ex that you were borderline.
That he continued in therapy with her after you left is pretty shaky but I guess with stringent attention to ethics it could be done. But now that she's told him whatever she has, that makes it impossible, IMO, for you to ever have treatment from her again.
This, I guess, is where T's earn their gray hair. They see a way they think they can help, and sometimes it causes more trouble than it's worth!
In my own experience, my h was seeing a T for over a year before I decided to see a T. His T immediately declined to see me, with or without my h, but referred me to someone good. Then, soon, my h and I were asked to sign releases which would allow the 2 T's to share info with each other (but not to share the spouse's info with the other spouse.)
Unknown to me at the time was that my h had a huge secret he'd kept from me for 21 years and his T was working on it with him. The idea in sharing that info with my T was to help her help me, especially at such time as my h finally let the secret out.
The point I'm getting to here is that, in almost a whole year of therapy, my T never once let the cat out of the bag. She must have wanted to, very badly, but she couldn't because of ethics. She couldn't even steer me in that direction, and even now that the secret is out, she can only talk about what I myself have said, not anything she's gotten from talking with the other T.I'm really sorry to hear that you had that experience. It'd be interesting to hear from some others, what their ideas are about the ethics of that.
Susan
Posted by eugenia on November 28, 2004, at 8:08:33
In reply to Re: Need advice on therapist boundaries, posted by peacefeline on November 27, 2004, at 21:40:16
Thanks guys for your responses.
It makes me feel good to at least have some acknowledgement that she was not acting correctly. Where does one report ethical violations committed by a therapist?
Posted by fallsfall on November 28, 2004, at 10:53:52
In reply to Re: Need advice on therapist boundaries, posted by eugenia on November 27, 2004, at 21:07:52
>I guess I am dwelling on this now because I wish I had acted differently, and feel that if I had been less confused I would not have gotten married and would have saved everybody loads of pain.
>I guess I am still angry.I'm not sure if I read this the way that you meant it. Or possibly that you have unconscious feelings that you aren't really aware of...? This may be completely off base, and if it is, please feel free to tell me that this doesn't apply to you.
It almost sounds to me like you are angry at that first therapist because you went to see her to decide whether to get married or not, you then did decide to get married, but later that turned out to be a bad idea. Therapists don't (or at least shouldn't) make life decisions for us. Their job is to help us think about the decision so that *we* can make the decision ourselves.
While I was in therapy I decided to separate from my husband. During the years before this important decision, we would talk about him a lot. And she would make comments "It sounds like he is making it hard for you to do what you know you need to do", or "If you decide to stay with him, then you will need to figure out how to ...". But she also said "If you leave him then..." She NEVER said "He is bad for you" or "You should leave him". Even when I announced that I wanted to leave, she never said that she thought it was a good or bad decision. When I finally left this therapist, I summed up our work together, and that included mentioning that *I* thought that leaving him was a good decision. She seemed pleased that *I* was happy with my decision. (My current therapist has mentioned that it sounds to him like leaving my husband was a good decision for me).
It is not our therapist's job to make our decisions for us - it is not their job to live our lives. My therapist was more directive about other things ("I think that since you can't get your kitchen cleaned up that you should consider using paper plates for a while").
Regardless of whether she did make the decision for you or not, telling your ex that you were borderline is clearly outside of the boundaries. (If she hadn't seen you as a patient, and had only met with you in his presence, and only could base her opinion on what he had told her about you, then she could *speculate* that you *might* be borderline - and that therefore he might want to handle things with you in a particular way. But this wasn't the case with you. She had an individual professional relationship with you.)
This post seems kind of confusing to me... The point I am trying to make is that there seem to be two issues - the triangle between you and her and your ex (which I do think she has handled poorly), and a (possible) expectation on your part that she would prevent you from making a bad decision (which I believe is not her job).
If I am making no sense, feel free to ask questions or ignore this post... [Fingers! Stop typing before you make more of a mess!!!]
Posted by eugenia on November 28, 2004, at 11:16:43
In reply to Re: Need advice on therapist boundaries » eugenia, posted by fallsfall on November 28, 2004, at 10:53:52
Actually, she encouraged me to get married. It was difficult because my parents really wanted me to get married as well. A major issue was that I really did not feel attracted to him and did not enjoy sex with him. She told me to see a sex therapist and told me that marriage was about friendship and not sex and that she and her husband only had sex twice a month. By the way, I generally am a pretty sexual person.
I am pretty sophisticated so in retrospect I am amazed that I stayed with her.
Posted by Shortelise on November 29, 2004, at 0:36:38
In reply to Re: Need advice on therapist boundaries, posted by eugenia on November 28, 2004, at 11:16:43
Hmmm... maybe you had a lousy therapist.
It amazes me when I tell my therapist what he said in the last session and he says to me, well, what I think I said was...
So very often he says one things and I hear another. It's pretty common.I am NOT saying that is what happened to you. But I do know it happens to me a lot. Sorry, don't get mad (I would!) but I just wanted to share my experience.
If my T ever told my husband anything that we had not discussed beforehand and decided my T should tell him (an unimaginable circumstance, but for the sake of argument) I would be FURIOUS with him. If he told my husband something about me that he had not told me, I would be beyond furious. It really crosses a boundary.
ShortE
Posted by eugenia on November 29, 2004, at 7:29:01
In reply to Re: Need advice on therapist boundaries » eugenia, posted by Shortelise on November 29, 2004, at 0:36:38
Hi:
Yes, I realize that I am the only one at fault for making a bad decision, but I am still annoyed at her for giving me advice rather than guidance. And unclear advice at that. Still, at the end of the day I am responsible for my decisions and my life. Still, I am kind of pissed at her. But not at you. In fact, I really appreciate your response(s).
Posted by Elisha on December 1, 2004, at 20:08:15
In reply to Need advice on therapist boundaries, posted by eugenia on November 27, 2004, at 14:00:08
If your therapist is doing something that makes you uncomfortable then there are many more to choose from. Whether you are right or not is not relavent the fact stands that it bothers you and you have a right to your feelings!
lots of luck
Elisha
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