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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 38. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by gardenergirl on November 21, 2004, at 12:58:49
I need to write about my last therapy session. It was something of a breakthrough of sorts, I think, but it's really hard to think rationally about.
Background: The week before, I had been to see a massage therapist who is into alternative treatments. She does energy work including Reiki and therapeutic touch, regular massage, Cranial-Sacral therapy, and gosh knows what else. She also is an intuitive. Anyway, she says I have no energy flowing in me; it's all stuck. And I am carrying a lot of "stuff", I assume to be emotional doo-doo, not all of which is mine. I'm not sure what she means by that, but perhaps it's because of my sensitivity and picking up on others' emotions?
Anyway, she was working on legs and trying to open up my pelvic area. As she massaged and stroked my legs, especially as she got to my thighs, I felt my chest get tighter and tighter. She finished each leg by bending it up to my chest, angled out some, as a way of assessing the mobility, I assume. When she was finished with both, she asked me how I was doing, and I told her that had been scary. And then I just started to cry hard. I couldn't figure out exactly why, but I did know that what she was doing had shifted at some point to no longer feeling safe. I've had tons of massages, but this has never happened before, although no one has ever worked quite that way, either. So she helped me work through the crying...she's kind of used to that with her clients, and then went on.
When I had my session Wednesday with my T, I told him about his experience. I have this fear that goes along with this experience that perhaps there is a trauma in my childhood that I am not aware of. It feels like quite an irrational fear, and I can acually identify a number of micro-trauma's for lack of a better word, that for a sensitive child would have been cumulatively traumatic. Anyway, in processing it with my T, he asked me what I had been feeling. I didn't know, but as I was trying to figure it out, the feeling came back in a huge wave. I just started crying and sobbing very hard. I don't know that I've ever sobbed like that in therapy. The hardest part is that I just didn't have any words or memories or thoughts to go with it. It was just pure pain. God, that's scary. The only word that came to me at all was "sorrow" but that seemed so inadequate.
My T is wonderful. He seems to understand how distressing it is to me to not be able to figure out what this means. He also said that I shouldn't go chasing what I can't remember, because we have enough on the table that I can remember to work with. So that was kind of reassuring, but I still am freaked out with this pain and my fears.
Ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh
This came out much longer and saying more than I intended, but that's okay, I suppose. I've got a session tomorrow. No way was I going to miss this week due to the holiday after last session.
And shoot, I got home Wednesday after crying all the way home, and just crawled into bed. A total waste of the rest of the day. I think I really needed that, but if sessions are going to be like this going forward, it will be hard to get stuff done, as Wed. is my day off. (I know they won't all be like this, but I seem to be doing a lot of catastrophizing lately, too.)
Sigh, how does anyone else deal with what you can't explain or even name?
gg
Posted by Poet on November 21, 2004, at 14:34:22
In reply to Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by gardenergirl on November 21, 2004, at 12:58:49
Hi GG,
It's so distressing to have an emotional reaction to something that you can't find the cause for. What I can't deal with is locked in my box of pain. Maybe you can try to lock your fear up? At least until you have worked through other issues?
My therapist would agree with yours that I (or you) shouldn't go chasing what you can't remember.
I have what can only be called a definite maybe for physical abuse inflicted by my brother when I was a baby. There really is no way of getting an answer, my mother always told me that I fell and hurt myself. Though she was not in the room when I *fell.* My brother was.
As my T said, today, the ER would have called child protection if a baby came in with injuries like I had. What I have to try to keep locked in the box is the *maybe.*
Maybe try locking up your *maybe?* I'm going to put the *maybe* back in my box right now. I have enough things I do remember to work on in therapy.
(((((GG))))))
Poet
Posted by Dinah on November 21, 2004, at 14:42:04
In reply to Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by gardenergirl on November 21, 2004, at 12:58:49
They won't all be like this going forward, I'm both happy and sad to tell you. :) You'll have plenty of boring sessions to look forward to as well.
Ok, this may be completely and totally off the mark for *you*, but I can tell you what sometimes happens with me. In order to deal with things I often strip away the feelings of a memory from the memory. The memory gets stored and can be recalled. But the feelings associated with it seem to go in big vats sorted by the sort of feelings. Big vats of sorrow. Big vats of rage. Etc. And if the vat gets accessed, a whole bunch of the feeling comes out. It doesn't have to be tied to any specific memory. It can just be an accumulation of the myriad insults to our nervous system that aren't uncommon.
I think it's a really good thing for me to tap into those vats every once in a while in a safe environment. It helps relieve the pressure.
Of course, your experience may not be in any way similar to mine.
Posted by antigua on November 21, 2004, at 14:52:27
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by Poet on November 21, 2004, at 14:34:22
Locking it up is a very good strategy when it all becomes overwhelming. I have done that many times in the past and it has been helpful for me. I've slowly gotten stronger and have had to put less in the box, but the box is always there when I need it. If I need to, I remember how I used to make myself safe as a young girl, eating M&Ms, drinking a coke (real luxuries for me as a kid) and reading in my special tree or window seat. That's how I escaped.
I'm having lots of company for the holiday (my mother included. I've never discussed what my father and her father did to me because I'm just not ready, or may never be), but I have lots of things to help me get through my feelings now, including having scheduled a T session this week when I normally wouldn't go before the holidays. My main goal is remembering that alcohol and my family do not mix and I will keep myself safe. (My relatives have all turned into teetotalers now, so it's easier!)But rest assured, there will be plenty of chocolate!! I just made fudge and if I need more I can make more!
I accept now that some of my memories are preverbal and I may never know them, but I'm trying hard to release the very, very scary feelings and not questioning so much what it all means. I never really believed in "physical memories" before, but I know they are part of the process.
Poet and gg--It may sound silly, but I'm really proud of you both. I know how hard it is...
antigua
Posted by littleone on November 21, 2004, at 14:52:55
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on November 21, 2004, at 14:42:04
That vat analogy really rang true for me. Thanks for sharing Dinah.
Posted by Aphrodite on November 21, 2004, at 15:40:37
In reply to Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by gardenergirl on November 21, 2004, at 12:58:49
Wow, what an overwhelming experience. I bet you've lost some sleep over it. I know you tried to process all of it with your T, but I'm a little more interested in what the intuitive had to say. Did she have any take on what happened? Since she witnessed it and in effect triggered it, surely she would have some insight. Was she working with chakras? From what little I know, it sounds like this happened when working with the base chakra, which is the family of origin and is tied to feeling secure and grounded, if you're into all of that. It also seems possible because she said your energy wasn't flowing and if your first chakra is closed, nothing else is open either. Will you go back to her?
Bessel van der Kolk has written a lot about trauma as it is stored in the body. His article is "The Body Remembers" or "The Body Keeps the Score." I don't remember the title exactly, but easily googled. His theories really ring true for me. It seems like she hit on a very provocative memory stored within you.
Let us know how this evolves, and be good to yourself while you're working on it.
Posted by annierose on November 21, 2004, at 16:20:20
In reply to Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by gardenergirl on November 21, 2004, at 12:58:49
GG - Although I do not have any wisdom to share with you, I felt sad when I read your post. I do understand that feeling of unexplained sadness. I usually feel intensely sad on Sundays compared with other days of the week. I agree with the other posters and T's ... try not to focus on remembering a "cause" for the pain ... When I free associate in therapy (which I hate ... letting go of the gate-keeper) I do find some interesting nuggests of possible explainations. After the crying ended, did you feel a sense of relief, or just more pain? Thinking of you, you are always so helpful to others.
Posted by Poet on November 21, 2004, at 16:26:58
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » Poet, posted by antigua on November 21, 2004, at 14:52:27
Hi Antigua,
Thanksgiving dinner will be a test if I am able to keep that box locked. I see my therapist on Wednesday, maybe she can bury the box somewhere I can't find it. Definitely take the key.
Poet
Posted by daisym on November 21, 2004, at 16:55:51
In reply to Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by gardenergirl on November 21, 2004, at 12:58:49
(((GG)))
This is one of the reasons I never let anyone touch me!
I think for whatever reason, your defenses are down enough for you to tap into this pile of sorrow and let it out. I've been researching grief, especially grief held in for a long time. The deep sobbing you spoke of is what makes me think of this.
I find it very disconcerting to not understand every emotion or feeling that descends on me. It makes me anxious and frustrated. I'm sure as a professional, it is very, very hard for you. But just because you are good at figuring other people out doesn't mean you will have the answers to your own internal dilemmas. I think you therapist was wise to caution you about chasing some unknown memory, it will come up and out if it is there. You don't want to drive yourself crazy.
As far as being destroyed after sessions, I think you are going to need to plan for some down time afterwards if you are moving into doing some of this deep work. I have found that I'm exhausted, even if I haven't given into the sobbing. My brain just wants to click off for awhile. Be really careful driving! I find it is helpful to tell my therapist if I have something I have to be together for afterwards, so we can keep things easier.
I hope writing it down helped clarify things. Seems to be the day for that.
Daisy
Posted by B2Chica on November 21, 2004, at 17:01:07
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by daisym on November 21, 2004, at 16:55:51
((((((gg))))))
sorry but definate trigger, made me want to cross my legs as i was reading this.
i agree with daisy. this too is why i don't like anyone touching me. that's why i can't do massages (lower OR upper)-don't even like my hubby doing it.
So sorry you felt this.i've had that unknown sobbing before and it scares the cr@p out of me. cuz i too Hate not understanding what is going on with me. it creates a panic, and fear/anger.
please take care.
b2c.
Posted by Shortelise on November 21, 2004, at 20:29:07
In reply to Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by gardenergirl on November 21, 2004, at 12:58:49
I am assuming she did as all massage therapist I've seen who do that kind of work, and made certain that you were covered as she did the leg movements.
To allow one's self to be so open, so trusting is huge and very frightening, don't you think?
When I am in that perverbal stuff, I just have to feel it, be "in" it. It is so painful sometimes. I sometimes rock myself in the rocking chair. Little by little it grows into something I can talk about.
I got my foot caught in the spokes of my sister's bike when I was little, and a massage therapist I'd been seeing for about a year and whom I trusted was massaging it and I lost it completely.
I highly recommend a rocking chair of glider for this stuff. Just to sit and move so gently, to sit in the feelings and move this way is so soothing.
ShortE
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 21, 2004, at 21:00:38
In reply to Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by gardenergirl on November 21, 2004, at 12:58:49
GG, as extremely painful and frightening as that experience was, i tend to look at it in a very positive light- you were able to express some intense suffering from the time before you could speak. That's probably the only way any of us can ever do it, with sobbing and intense feelings of fear. It's happening to me a lot right now- including when I have a massage! The MT's encounter it frequently, and I believe they are trained to respect the feelings, but not to probe into them verbally. At most, the words you would be able to associate with such a powerful experience would be very few and simple- the expression of the feelings themselves is the primary communication- for a baby- isn't it?
I hope it helped to get such powerful feelings out-if not immediately- in the long run. Since I'm experiencing much the same, I do find the experience of feeling that my analyst knows what I'm feeling helps a lot. "Mmm's" are much more comforting than long sentences for that *part*!
Posted by littleone on November 21, 2004, at 21:18:31
In reply to Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by gardenergirl on November 21, 2004, at 12:58:49
>The hardest part is that I just didn't have any words or memories or thoughts to go with it. It was just pure pain. God, that's scary. The only word that came to me at all was "sorrow" but that seemed so inadequate.
>
> Sigh, how does anyone else deal with what you can't explain or even name?Hi gardenergirl. I'm sorry you had to deal with all that. It must have been terrible.
Re your comments above, (and you probably know all this already being a T in training), but instead of trying to verbalise your pain, perhaps you could draw it instead. Sometimes even a big black harsh scribble can convey so much more than words.
Was it Daisym who did the art therapy some time back? Sorry, can't remember. But maybe something like that could be useful for you to utilise at the moment. Not with a separate T, but taking the stuff into your current T.
I hope your crying helped relieve some of your pain.
Posted by gardenergirl on November 21, 2004, at 22:39:37
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by littleone on November 21, 2004, at 21:18:31
I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful and caring responses so far. I have read them all, and I do have things in mind to reply. But I can hardly keep my eyes open, and I need to go go bed. I'll post more tomorrow. Thanks again.
You've all been helpful, and I appreciate it.
GG
Posted by pegasus on November 22, 2004, at 14:29:35
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by littleone on November 21, 2004, at 21:18:31
I think this is a great idea. I've been dealing with similar stuff in therapy lately. I've had some pain from a recent event that seems to originate from when I was really little. When I access those feelings, I can't articulate a darn thing. It just feels really young. It seems to help (eventually) to at least acknowledge those really strong preverbal feelings. I've spent many sessions with my T, and alone, just sobbing with a really raw, unorganized pain.
And I do do art therapy with my T. I find that it's really helpful at the times when you just can't articulate something. I've been drawing lots of holes, and pits, and tangles. I'm not sure that I understand why it helps, but it really does seem to.
much luck with this!
pegasus
Posted by littleone on November 22, 2004, at 15:49:45
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by pegasus on November 22, 2004, at 14:29:35
Pegasus,
I've always wondered with Art Therapy what the role of the T is exactly. I presume they help you get started on expressing yourself through the art and I guess they probably talk about what you've drawn afterwards and gain some insights from it. But is it also like regular therapy where you both talk a lot? Do you do a single art thing per session? Or several? Or are they just homework that is then discussed in your session?
Sorry to be so nosey, I've never really understood exactly what was involved.
Thanks.
Posted by fallsfall on November 22, 2004, at 21:51:36
In reply to Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by gardenergirl on November 21, 2004, at 12:58:49
(((((Gardenergirl)))))
I don't know of anything to say that can help, but I don't want you to feel alone with your pain.
Trying to keep you company,
Falls.
Posted by gardenergirl on November 22, 2004, at 23:32:25
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by Poet on November 21, 2004, at 14:34:22
> > As my T said, today, the ER would have called child protection if a baby came in with injuries like I had. What I have to try to keep locked in the box is the *maybe.*
>
> Maybe try locking up your *maybe?* I'm going to put the *maybe* back in my box right now. I have enough things I do remember to work on in therapy.
>I don't even have a definite "maybe". It's a "maybe=maybe" I guess. :) But it can go in the lockbox. I think the pain is the thing to go for, not a memory. Because I'm guessing that memories of any kind will come if they need to, especially when more of the pain comes out.
Thanks for your caring. I hope that lock box is still working for you.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 22, 2004, at 23:36:03
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on November 21, 2004, at 14:42:04
> They won't all be like this going forward, I'm both happy and sad to tell you. :) You'll have plenty of boring sessions to look forward to as well.
Thanks for your response, Dinah. And you are right. Today's session wasn't exactly boring, but it was not very productive. I went back to being well defended and staying intellectual. By T challenged me on it. He's doing that more lately, and I know, cause I see it, too, but it kind of stings. :(
>
> Ok, this may be completely and totally off the mark for *you*, but I can tell you what sometimes happens with me. In order to deal with things I often strip away the feelings of a memory from the memory. The memory gets stored and can be recalled. But the feelings associated with it seem to go in big vats sorted by the sort of feelings. Big vats of sorrow. Big vats of rage. Etc. And if the vat gets accessed, a whole bunch of the feeling comes out. It doesn't have to be tied to any specific memory. It can just be an accumulation of the myriad insults to our nervous system that aren't uncommon.That's a good metaphor. I think of mine as a never-running-dry well. It seems like when a large amount gets out, it seems like the level drops, but there must be this wellspring of pain that fills it up again. Yuck.
>
> I think it's a really good thing for me to tap into those vats every once in a while in a safe environment. It helps relieve the pressure.
>
> Of course, your experience may not be in any way similar to mine.I think it's good, too. Mostly when I cry in therapy, it's like a little bit leaking out at a time. so getting a lot out was good, although draining and scary. Am I weird to think I might want to get there again?
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 22, 2004, at 23:39:43
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » Poet, posted by antigua on November 21, 2004, at 14:52:27
> If I need to, I remember how I used to make myself safe as a young girl, eating M&Ms, drinking a coke (real luxuries for me as a kid) and reading in my special tree or window seat. That's how I escaped.
That sounds like a lovely image. I'm glad you had that to escape to.
>
It sounds like you have a good plan for the holidays. Chocolate is always good. I hope you have some happy times during the holiday.
>
> I accept now that some of my memories are preverbal and I may never know them, but I'm trying hard to release the very, very scary feelings and not questioning so much what it all means. I never really believed in "physical memories" before, but I know they are part of the process.
>
> Poet and gg--It may sound silly, but I'm really proud of you both. I know how hard it is...I'm going to try to let them come and not analyze them so much (sheesh, that's going to be hard...maybe need a new mantra). And hearing you are proud of me, that's quite a compliment. Thank you, antigua.
Take care,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 22, 2004, at 23:46:37
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by Aphrodite on November 21, 2004, at 15:40:37
> but I'm a little more interested in what the intuitive had to say. Did she have any take on what happened? Since she witnessed it and in effect triggered it, surely she would have some insight.
She really didn't say anything. She tends to keep things to herself unless you ask. But yeah, I can guess what she was thinking. She wants me to do Watsu next, which is a similar thing, but in a warm pool. This will make it easier for her, she said. Others have said it's like going back to the womb. Don't know what I think about that. I'm going to try it, although I hate the smell of chlorine and I look like a huge grape in the new bathing suit I had to get due to weight gain.
>Was she working with chakras? From what little I know, it sounds like this happened when working with the base chakra, which is the family of origin and is tied to feeling secure and grounded, if you're into all of that. It also seems possible because she said your energy wasn't flowing and if your first chakra is closed, nothing else is open either. Will you go back to her?
I admit I didn't really know why she was doing what she was doing. I tend to just focus on the experience and try to keep my brain out of it. As scary as it was last time, I really trust her. She's got this very calming and spiritual presence. What you are thinking sounds right. She definitely does work with chakras. My 3rd is definitely blocked, and she said my head is very heavy, which she interprets as having a lot of energy up there. So perhaps she's focusing on the deficit areas.
>
> Bessel van der Kolk has written a lot about trauma as it is stored in the body. His article is "The Body Remembers" or "The Body Keeps the Score." I don't remember the title exactly, but easily googled. His theories really ring true for me. It seems like she hit on a very provocative memory stored within you.Yeah I agree. I can think of an adult memory that would fit, but then I should have words for it more. I don't know. I'll look up van der Kolk when I get a bit more time.
>
> Let us know how this evolves, and be good to yourself while you're working on it.
Thanks, I will. I've been doing a lot of "therapeutic sleeping". :)gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 22, 2004, at 23:49:57
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by annierose on November 21, 2004, at 16:20:20
Thanks for the kind thoughts. Isn't free associating hard? Sometimes I think it would be helpful to lie on the couch, but I'm sure I would never just start doing that in therapy. But somehow that seems like it might feel freer.
I mostly felt drained when it ended. My T asked if it felt like I had "digested" or "metabolized" (interesing words) any of the pain. If I did, it was just a tiny amount. But then I do think it was a good thing. I think perhaps it was just too scary to feel relief just yet.
But I'll keep trying.
Thanks again,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 22, 2004, at 23:54:46
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger » gardenergirl, posted by daisym on November 21, 2004, at 16:55:51
> (((GG)))
>
> This is one of the reasons I never let anyone touch me!You know, it's never been a problem before. It will be interesting to see how it goes next time. Although I do think I'll tell her more about what was going on with me, and also ask her take on it.
>
> I think for whatever reason, your defenses are down enough for you to tap into this pile of sorrow and let it out. I've been researching grief, especially grief held in for a long time. The deep sobbing you spoke of is what makes me think of this.Grief is not a bad word for it. The only other time I can remember doing something like this was outside of therapy. It felt a lot like grieving, not just experiencing, but grieving, which has a sense of movement to it, to me. But I could tie thoughts about my mother and her not being present at times I needed her. Not having an explanation is so much harder.
>
>
> As far as being destroyed after sessions, I think you are going to need to plan for some down time afterwards if you are moving into doing some of this deep work. I have found that I'm exhausted, even if I haven't given into the sobbing. My brain just wants to click off for awhile. Be really careful driving! I find it is helpful to tell my therapist if I have something I have to be together for afterwards, so we can keep things easier.Yeah, there will come a time when I will have to go back to work after sessions, unless I can get a 4 o'clock time. I should ask him to let me know when one opens up.
>
> I hope writing it down helped clarify things. Seems to be the day for that.Yeah, it did help. I didn't intend to write so much, but it just kind of flowed out.
Thanks for all of your wisdom, caring, and support. I really appreciate it.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 22, 2004, at 23:55:59
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by B2Chica on November 21, 2004, at 17:01:07
Sorry for the trigger. And thanks for the caring. It's nice to see you back here!
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 22, 2004, at 23:59:29
In reply to Re: Preverbal pain, includes possible trigger, posted by Shortelise on November 21, 2004, at 20:29:07
> I am assuming she did as all massage therapist I've seen who do that kind of work, and made certain that you were covered as she did the leg movements.
>
> To allow one's self to be so open, so trusting is huge and very frightening, don't you think?Yes, she went out of her way to make sure I was covered. And yes, to be so trusting is scary, especially once you start to worry about "what if". (shudders) Even that tiny .05 percent chance that she might not be trustworthy is enough to give pause. Which is not like me, but I suppose IS reality.
>
> When I am in that perverbal stuff, I just have to feel it, be "in" it. It is so painful sometimes. I sometimes rock myself in the rocking chair. Little by little it grows into something I can talk about.You know, I have a rocking chair, that used to be in the house where I grew up. I may try that.
>
> I got my foot caught in the spokes of my sister's bike when I was little, and a massage therapist I'd been seeing for about a year and whom I trusted was massaging it and I lost it completely.Wow, it's fascinating how the body can react, isn't it?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
gg
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