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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 27. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Rigby on October 22, 2004, at 13:36:30
I'd really appreciate feedback on this.
Last night I saw my therapist. She's had boundary issues in the past with me but has mostly been pretty good about things the past year or so.
About ten minutes into the session she stopped me and said, "Do you smell that?" I sniffed. Then got up and walked to her side of the room, then said, "Nope." She said, huh, maybe what you were talking about triggered her. I said, my grandmother had olfactory hallucinations and she was a schizophrenic.
We moved on. But it was weird.
Then further along I was talking about how my partner got this great new job, pays a ton, with travel to Europe, how she and I were getting along quite well, etc. I said that my partner was very excited to take me along on one of the jaunts to Europe. My therapist said, "I can't believe she isn't pissed off at you."
Note: My partner and I struggled this summer as I, openly, slept with someone else. My partner and I reeled a bit but we're dealing okay.
Anyway, I felt really slammed by this comment--kinda felt that my therapist revealed her true feelings. I told her so. She said she was simply trying to put herself in my partner's shoes. I said, #1, it's not her job to put herself in my partner's shoes and, even if she did, it was *she* who was in those shoes and it was *her* feelings about my situation, the therapist's that were coming out. I suggested she might be having a hard time dealing with issues in my life and that she might be projecting her anger at what I did.
She kinda went, "Huh."
She also back pedaled for a long while then I got up and left. As I was at the door she stopped me saying how lousy I must feel, that she didn't mean it, etc. But the damage had been done, I feel. You can't un-say stuff.
I've lost trust in this therapist. Bottom line.
Any thoughts would be appreciated. I feel badly but I feel like I may need to dump her. I don't feel super attached, just betrayed. And I DEFinitely won't try and work it out with her on my dime.
Thanks much for any thoughts you guys might have.
Rigby
Posted by joslynn on October 22, 2004, at 14:05:58
In reply to Need Advise, posted by Rigby on October 22, 2004, at 13:36:30
"I can't believe she isn't pissed off at you" is an unprofessional comment in my opinion.
First of all, it's not about what she thinks, it's not about her opinions. And using a term like "pissed off" seems sort of colloquial and overly casual, like you're two buddies at a bar.
But lately I have had zero tolerance for professionals inserting their personal crap from their own life into therapy. So that's where I'm coming from.
Posted by crushedout on October 22, 2004, at 15:14:25
In reply to Need Advise, posted by Rigby on October 22, 2004, at 13:36:30
Hi Rigby,I think the key point is that you said you've lost trust in her. That seems pretty crucial to effective therapy. And I kinda can see why you have. So I think dumping her sounds like it might be the right thing to do (oh, I wish it were as easy for me as it sounds like it might be for you -- although I know it's probably not supereasy for you, either).
One question: did you leave in the middle of the session?
Another: do you think you will get another T?
A third: what's the significance of the olfactory hallucination part of the session? I think that's really interesting that you included that, but I'm not sure how it ties in to the rest. Just that you're spending time in your session on her sh*t? I guess that would make sense.
It sounds like you're in a good place. I'm happy for you (and, as is my wont, rather envious).
crushedout
Posted by Rigby on October 22, 2004, at 15:53:26
In reply to Re: Need Advise, posted by joslynn on October 22, 2004, at 14:05:58
Hi Joslyn,
Thanks for the response.
I'm pretty sure she said pissed off--maybe she said "really mad" but I'm guessing it was the former. It was so obviously outside of bounds though I literally laughed and asked for my check back. Like, "Hey thanks--WHO'S therapist are you??"
What sorta thing happened to you, if you don't mind sharing (sorry if you've already posted, I pop in-out quickly here.)
> "I can't believe she isn't pissed off at you" is an unprofessional comment in my opinion.
> First of all, it's not about what she thinks, it's not about her opinions. And using a term like "pissed off" seems sort of colloquial and overly casual, like you're two buddies at a bar.
>
> But lately I have had zero tolerance for professionals inserting their personal crap from their own life into therapy. So that's where I'm coming from.
Posted by Dinah on October 22, 2004, at 16:20:45
In reply to Need Advise, posted by Rigby on October 22, 2004, at 13:36:30
I don't know about being able to give you advice about this specific incident. But haven't you been building up to something for some time? It seemed that way to me anyway. Perhaps it's time for "something" to come to fruition.
Whether that something is deciding that it's time to move on, or deciding that it's time to sit down and fix things is only for you to decide. But it sounds as if you've already have some idea?
Posted by Rigby on October 22, 2004, at 16:30:42
In reply to Re: Need Advise » Rigby, posted by crushedout on October 22, 2004, at 15:14:25
Hey Crushed,
Nice hearing from you and thanks for the message! Responses below...
You said it, sister. As you know, losing trust in this one supposedly safe place blows. A while back dumping her would have sent me into a tailspin. Now I'm actually kinda happy that I don't seem to feel all that much. But maybe after I tell he we're breaking up I'll begin to reel--we'll see.
> I think the key point is that you said you've lost trust in her. That seems pretty crucial to effective therapy. And I kinda can see why you have. So I think dumping her sounds like it might be the right thing to do (oh, I wish it were as easy for me as it sounds like it might be for you -- although I know it's probably not supereasy for you, either).I left toward the end. The only difference was, it was before *she* said, "we're out of time." She's almost always the gate keeper on that so the message was, "I'm outta here."
> One question: did you leave in the middle of the session?I may. I have found therapy to be helpful but what a drag to see this crap from a therapist.
> Another: do you think you will get another T?She was acting a little "off." The whole time. Too casual, too loose and judgemental about a few other things. Her thinking didn't seem as clear either. So the last time she did something like this months later, after I was really angry and hurt, she finally admitted she was messed up from being on a medication.
> A third: what's the significance of the olfactory hallucination part of the session? I think that's really interesting that you included that, but I'm not sure how it ties in to the rest. Just that you're spending time in your session on her sh*t? I guess that would make sense.Eh, it's all a mixed bag so don't get too envious. ;)
> It sounds like you're in a good place. I'm happy for you (and, as is my wont, rather envious).What's up with you, lately? How's your therapist situation?
Rigby
Posted by Rigby on October 22, 2004, at 16:42:08
In reply to Re: Need Advise, posted by Rigby on October 22, 2004, at 16:30:42
nt
Posted by crushedout on October 22, 2004, at 17:07:55
In reply to Re: Need Advise, posted by Rigby on October 22, 2004, at 16:30:42
Oh, I'm sort of okay. I have some pretty serious ups and downs and I'm at a point in my life where I'm really longing for things that I'm "supposed" to have now (house, money, family, stuff) but I'm not there yet, and it's hard.As for my T, I really can't figure out what's going on with her. I do feel like maybe I don't completely trust her (and haven't in a long time) and that I should probably find someone else, but I don't feel sure enough about that to actually make the move. Especially since I'm still really attached to her. I guess I'm still in love but it's hard to tell. It's the weirdest freakin, most unsatisfying, frustrating, painful kind of "in love" I've ever experienced in my life. And intellectually I can start to believe that I might not even *like* being in a relationship with her if I had the chance to. But unintellectually I really don't give a sh*t -- I just want to try it more than I want anything else on earth.
So, basically, I'm in this horrible kind of limbo in every way and my life just kind of sucks. But thanks for asking.
:) :( :) ?
Posted by Joslynn on October 22, 2004, at 22:07:13
In reply to Re: Need Advise » joslynn, posted by Rigby on October 22, 2004, at 15:53:26
What happened with me...Just a little too much self-disclosure from a shrink, which added to my idolization and emotional dependency. I am sure it was all unintentional. Nothing terrible, but it did harm me in the end, because an illusion of a connection was created, which then came crashing down on my head. But now I'm actually kind of glad the idol has fallen and I am free.
I haven't posted about it much because writing about it can be a way of obsessing, for me, and I did write it about it extensively already in my journal. And talked about it with other therapist and with the person in question, who apologized quite humbly. I'm just renegotiating some boundaries now. Making some changes.
Good luck with your sitch.
Posted by Speaker on October 22, 2004, at 23:07:07
In reply to Re: Need Advise » Rigby, posted by crushedout on October 22, 2004, at 17:07:55
Sounds like you already made up your mind. In your heart I think you know if you can trust...sounds doubtful to me. I suggest you set up a time with another T and discuss the situation. This does two things. 1. An objective opinion from another person that is in the same seat as your T. 2. It gives you another source of support if you decide to dump your T. Ok 3 things...you get to interview another T to see if you could work with someone else.
Posted by Rigby on October 22, 2004, at 23:23:41
In reply to Re: Need Advise » Rigby, posted by Dinah on October 22, 2004, at 16:20:45
Hi Dinah,
Thanks for writing.
Occassionally I've wondered if she was a bit out of line but, for the most part, the past year or more I've not felt a build-up. I've not actually been real focused on my relationship with her--really it's been about me and not she and I.
> I don't know about being able to give you advice about this specific incident. But haven't you been building up to something for some time? It seemed that way to me anyway. Perhaps it's time for "something" to come to fruition.I left a voicemail for her with nothing other than to call when she gets a chance. I will be interested to hear what she has to say. If she handles it the way she's handled other stuff in the past, she'll be defensive. But we'll see.
> Whether that something is deciding that it's time to move on, or deciding that it's time to sit down and fix things is only for you to decide. But it sounds as if you've already have some idea?
Posted by Rigby on October 22, 2004, at 23:49:44
In reply to Re: Need Advise, posted by Speaker on October 22, 2004, at 23:07:07
Hi Speaker,
I like this idea. Part of me wonders though if I actually want to do therapy now. I wonder if it's one of these things where you stop for one reason or another and you don't necessarily *have* to pick it back up. I've been going to her for three years--maybe it's time I took a break, period, from therapy. I used to look forward to that hour as a little break from the world--then that little bubble totally burst yesterday. But it didn't hurt *that* much. In fact I'm sort of surprised by it which has got me thinking about how much I "need" to be doing this.
Thanks very much for your post.
> Sounds like you already made up your mind. In your heart I think you know if you can trust...sounds doubtful to me. I suggest you set up a time with another T and discuss the situation. This does two things. 1. An objective opinion from another person that is in the same seat as your T. 2. It gives you another source of support if you decide to dump your T. Ok 3 things...you get to interview another T to see if you could work with someone else.
>
>
Posted by Rigby on October 22, 2004, at 23:59:38
In reply to Re: Need Advise » Rigby, posted by crushedout on October 22, 2004, at 17:07:55
Are you actually longing for these things because you want them or longing for them because you feel you're supposed to have them?
> Oh, I'm sort of okay. I have some pretty serious ups and downs and I'm at a point in my life where I'm really longing for things that I'm "supposed" to have now (house, money, family, stuff) but I'm not there yet, and it's hard.Dang. This thing has just really taken hold. And it sounds like your brain is telling you that she's not all that but still, it's not the brain that's calling the shots here. She sounds like an addiction to me. Do you think you could try and say take a month off from her and go to someone else? Just to try *something* in the pattern to break it?
> As for my T, I really can't figure out what's going on with her. I do feel like maybe I don't completely trust her (and haven't in a long time) and that I should probably find someone else, but I don't feel sure enough about that to actually make the move. Especially since I'm still really attached to her. I guess I'm still in love but it's hard to tell. It's the weirdestSorry to hear this. It will get better though.
> So, basically, I'm in this horrible kind of limbo in every way and my life just kind of sucks. But thanks for asking.Great emoticon.
> :) :( :) ?
Posted by crushedout on October 23, 2004, at 0:17:56
In reply to Re: Need Advise » crushedout, posted by Rigby on October 22, 2004, at 23:59:38
> Are you actually longing for these things because you want them or longing for them because you feel you're supposed to have them?oh, no, i really want them. but somehow it's easier when you're younger to be patient, and tell yourself, "don't worry -- that stuff comes later." now i know i'm supposed to be having them now and i start to panic that i will never have them. does that make sense?
> Dang. This thing has just really taken hold. And it sounds like your brain is telling you that she's not all that but still, it's not the brain that's calling the shots here. She sounds like an addiction to me. Do you think you could try and say take a month off from her and go to someone else? Just to try *something* in the pattern to break it?
hmm, the addiction part doesn't really ring true to me anymore. it feels like being in love. and there's dependency there, yes, but it doesn't really feel addictive in the sense that i think you're thinking of. although it makes sense that you would think that. and the remedy you suggest would still possibly help, but no, i don't feel like i can do it. fallsfall always trying to get me to stop saying i can't, because of course i CAN -- i just don't want to. i just can't see myself really doing that. i wish i could. i'm not sure why it feels so much like it's not an option.maybe i should try talking about it with her, but i'm scared to. i think, like you, i'm lacking some really basic and necessary trust with her. and that's obviously not good.
Posted by Rigby on October 24, 2004, at 19:46:21
In reply to my stuff » Rigby, posted by crushedout on October 23, 2004, at 0:17:56
Yeah, it makes total sense. And that's really normal and natural. Not that that makes it any easier but it's not weird or neurotic or *any*thing like that.
> oh, no, i really want them. but somehow it's easier when you're younger to be patient, and tell yourself, "don't worry -- that stuff comes later." now i know i'm supposed to be having them now and i start to panic that i will never have them. does that make sense?This is a toughie. The messed up part is if the therapist is good she should be getting you through this. But if she's not she's kinda generated herself this forever client--not intentionally but it's an effed circle here. She might have been "good" enough to get you into this place, this feeling place where it might have been healthy to transfer feelings onto her, etc. and work through them, but is she "good" enough to get you out? I guess when you feel you can't take it anymore, if it doesn't change, you'll do something about it. Maybe the discomfort allows you to fill voids that would otherwise be exposed.
> hmm, the addiction part doesn't really ring true to me anymore. it feels like being in love. and there's dependency there, yes, but it doesn't really feel addictive in the sense that i think you're thinking of. although it makes sense that you would think that. and the remedy you suggest would still possibly help, but no, i don't feel like i can do it. fallsfall always trying to get me to stop saying i can't, because of course i CAN -- i just don't want to. i just can't see myself really doing that. i wish i could. i'm not sure why it feels so much like it's not an option.DEFinitely talk to her about it. This is YOUR therapy--YOU want to stop hurting already. The issue of needing her, being in love with her, *and* not trusting her sounds deep--like it's some intense issues with your mom or something. But your therapist should be pushing to work through them unless you're day-to-daying her--like not going deep with her then she won't know that your feelings for her are still really painful.
> maybe i should try talking about it with her, but i'm scared to. i think, like you, i'm lacking some really basic and necessary trust with her. and that's obviously not good.
Posted by crushedout on October 24, 2004, at 19:52:02
In reply to Re: my stuff » crushedout, posted by Rigby on October 24, 2004, at 19:46:21
I don't think I'm hiding how hard my feelings are from her. I often bring them up, and she sort of dismisses it. Well, she thinks that whenever we try to talk about them, I end up dissociating and that "gets us nowhere." So she discourages me from really trying to dive in. Which leaves me between a rock and a hard place. I'm not sure what her plan is for actually addressing them SOMEHOW. Yes, I need to talk to her about this. It's a mess.
Posted by crushedout on October 24, 2004, at 19:54:02
In reply to Re: my stuff » crushedout, posted by Rigby on October 24, 2004, at 19:46:21
Posted by crushedout on October 24, 2004, at 19:56:20
In reply to Re: my stuff » crushedout, posted by Rigby on October 24, 2004, at 19:46:21
Posted by Rigby on October 24, 2004, at 23:42:13
In reply to Re: my stuff » Rigby, posted by crushedout on October 24, 2004, at 19:52:02
It sounds like *she* can't handle it. Do you buy her explanation that you are dissociating? What specifically does she mean by that?
> I don't think I'm hiding how hard my feelings are from her. I often bring them up, and she sort of dismisses it. Well, she thinks that whenever we try to talk about them, I end up dissociating and that "gets us nowhere." So she discourages me from really trying to dive in. Which leaves me between a rock and a hard place. I'm not sure what her plan is for actually addressing them SOMEHOW. Yes, I need to talk to her about this. It's a mess.
Posted by crushedout on October 25, 2004, at 13:12:56
In reply to Re: my stuff » crushedout, posted by Rigby on October 24, 2004, at 23:42:13
> It sounds like *she* can't handle it. Do you buy her explanation that you are dissociating? What specifically does she mean by that?
she means i clam up, and go numb, and can't really talk about what's going with her anymore. that has happened a few times when we've tried talking about the transference, but we haven't really tried in so long and so it hasn't happened in a long time, either.
i'm not sure why she wouldn't be able to handle my feelings about her. she used to be flattered by them. so it seems odd to me that she would avoid it. also, she says we need to find a way to talk about them without me dissociating so she claims not to be avoiding them altogether. like i've said, i'm not sure how much i trust her, so yes, i am suspicious that she's the one who's avoiding the topic, but why would she?
Posted by Rigby on October 25, 2004, at 13:22:41
In reply to Re: my stuff » Rigby, posted by crushedout on October 25, 2004, at 13:12:56
Clamming up and feeling numb are natural and she should be able to help you get through it so you can talk about it.
> she means i clam up, and go numb, and can't really talk about what's going with her anymore. that has happened a few times when we've tried talking about the transference, but we haven't really tried in so long and so it hasn't happened in a long time, either.I guess therapists are people too and maybe some are hard pressed to deal with super intense transferences. I'm not sure. But if your instinct is that there's resistence on her end then chances are you're right. This is what I was saying in terms of therapists being okay enough to get things going (induce transference) but not good enough to help guide a client through it.
If it is hurting you and it sure sounds like it is, don't let up--keep trying even if you do go numb, etc.--don't let it go. You deserve to be out of pain already.
> i'm not sure why she wouldn't be able to handle my feelings about her. she used to be flattered by them. so it seems odd to me that she would avoid it. also, she says we need to find a way to talk about them without me dissociating so she claims not to be avoiding them altogether. like i've said, i'm not sure how much i trust her, so yes, i am suspicious that she's the one who's avoiding the topic, but why would she?
Posted by Dinah on October 27, 2004, at 9:22:49
In reply to Re: Need Advise » Dinah, posted by Rigby on October 22, 2004, at 23:23:41
I thought this was part of an ongoing pattern. Was it an isolated incident?
Nearly everyone I have an intimate relationship has said something grossly insensitive from time to time. And not infrequently they lack the perceptiveness to see how grossly insensitive they were. And I've probably done the same to them. If I were to end a relationship for isolated or infrequent acts of gross insensitivity, I wouldn't have any relationships at all. It's my personal philosophy that we are all doomed to hurt and disappoint the people we care about, and that we're all doomed to do it more than once and in the same way. And that the only way to build a transcendent relationship is to accept that unfortunate fact.
On the other hand, focussing on a moment of gross insensitivity is often a great way to motivate myself to get out of a relationship that has outlived it's usefulness or that really wasn't that good to begin with.
So if this is a pattern, I can see that you would come to the conclusion that this wasn't a good relationship to be in. If this was an isolated event, it might be profitable to review the relationship as a whole.
Posted by Rigby on October 27, 2004, at 11:51:37
In reply to I think I misunderstood » Rigby, posted by Dinah on October 27, 2004, at 9:22:49
Hi Dinah,
This is *so* insightful. Thank you.
I think that it's a really good point--that we're all doomed to screw up and we just hope that the other person will forgive us.
I also think that it's a great point that a screw up can be used as a way to get out, too.
*And* I think in my case it's some of both. I think my therapist is not all that bad, I think she screwed up and I think, although not at ALL consciously at the time, that I needed to get away for a while.
It's been incredibly interesting feeling that I'm not in therapy right now. It's like I've ripped the training wheels off the bike and am seeing how I can do on my own. I picked a *lousy* time to do so but maybe, subconsciously, for whatever reason, it was the best time.
I've had so many freer thoughts or something. I've not felt as scared to consider making some major changes in my life.
I don't know exactly what's happening with this process. All I know is that it feels right. And if I had to guess I'd say it's less about therapist issues and possibly more about me and moving on in my life.
Like I think maybe I used therapy as a crutch--if I talked about my conflicts in therapy I wouldn't have to *do* anything about them. I could talk about my bad past but possibly not have to deal with the players in it. Now I feel a little like, "Enough talking--start living."
Phew. Anyway, your message struck a real chord--thank you so much for it.
> I thought this was part of an ongoing pattern. Was it an isolated incident?
>
> Nearly everyone I have an intimate relationship has said something grossly insensitive from time to time. And not infrequently they lack the perceptiveness to see how grossly insensitive they were. And I've probably done the same to them. If I were to end a relationship for isolated or infrequent acts of gross insensitivity, I wouldn't have any relationships at all. It's my personal philosophy that we are all doomed to hurt and disappoint the people we care about, and that we're all doomed to do it more than once and in the same way. And that the only way to build a transcendent relationship is to accept that unfortunate fact.
>
> On the other hand, focussing on a moment of gross insensitivity is often a great way to motivate myself to get out of a relationship that has outlived it's usefulness or that really wasn't that good to begin with.
>
> So if this is a pattern, I can see that you would come to the conclusion that this wasn't a good relationship to be in. If this was an isolated event, it might be profitable to review the relationship as a whole.
Posted by Dinah on October 27, 2004, at 12:00:39
In reply to Re: I think I misunderstood » Dinah, posted by Rigby on October 27, 2004, at 11:51:37
It sounds as if it served a valuable function for you then - the mistake your therapist made. Keep using as long as it's useful for you to get used to riding solo. I'm glad it feels like the right moment for you. I think we tend to have good instincts about ourselves and ought to trust them.
Posted by Annierose on October 27, 2004, at 18:09:16
In reply to :-) » Rigby, posted by Dinah on October 27, 2004, at 12:00:39
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