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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tabitha on July 21, 2004, at 0:08:31
Tonight was really weird. We've been processing the conflict between me and Mean Woman. I'll start calling her Polly, just so I can give her a chance. Anyway, last week I poured out all my pain over how I see her as mean and so forth, and how the group doesn't feel safe to me because of it. This week she poured out her pain over what I said, and how she feels about me. There were quite a few things in there that registered as insults to me, but mostly I was just amazed because so much of what she was saying she felt toward me was the same as I've felt toward her. The basis of the dislike is different, but it all just sounded so similar.
It almost gave me hope-- since I can see how she's misinterpreting me. Her distortions are so clear. So it gave me hope maybe I'm really distorting too, and she's a much less scary person than I think.
The other cool thing was the way the rest of the group supported us. They managed to extend support to both of us, but without taking sides at all. I don't know if this is a change in me or what. I know for a while I was just going nuts wanting someone to take my side (namely my therapist) but it actually felt safer to me being in a group where people were not taking sides.
So I came out feeling really, oddly, wildly hopeful that this can turn out OK. Although Polly seemed utterly hopeless about it. Last week I was utterly hopeless and she seemed relatively untouched. So it's kinda like we're playing hot potato, throwing the pain back and forth. I still don't know how it can get resolved, because it seems we're just so at odds.
But I feel oddly hopeful.
Now I just have to avoid letting all the insults sink in. She said some pretty awful things. So if I start letting those things get to me I'll be back on the rollercoaster.
I'm not sure how to do that. Maybe some thought-stopping, at least til my session Thursday.
Posted by JenStar on July 21, 2004, at 0:30:49
In reply to A different group session. Hope at last?, posted by tabitha on July 21, 2004, at 0:08:31
You sound like you're being really positive & optimistic about this. What a great rolemodel!
I hope things work out for you Polly & that you can get along. Good luck.
JenStar
Posted by tabitha on July 21, 2004, at 0:36:24
In reply to Re: A different group session. Hope at last?, posted by JenStar on July 21, 2004, at 0:30:49
Thanks for the encouragement. I've really had ups and downs with this thing. Mostly downs, so a ray of hope is very welcome right now.
Posted by Dinah on July 21, 2004, at 5:37:19
In reply to A different group session. Hope at last?, posted by tabitha on July 21, 2004, at 0:08:31
It's really encouraging, Tabitha, that you were able to see things differently this time. :)
Good for you!
And good luck Thursday.
Posted by fallsfall on July 21, 2004, at 8:13:39
In reply to A different group session. Hope at last?, posted by tabitha on July 21, 2004, at 0:08:31
Tabitha,
Perseverance is paying off.
Hope is a wonderful thing.
Falls.
Posted by pegasus on July 21, 2004, at 12:07:14
In reply to A different group session. Hope at last?, posted by tabitha on July 21, 2004, at 0:08:31
Hi tabitha,
I'm glad things are seeming more positive. That sounds like a really tough situation. I know I'd have a hard time looking past the insults. But it must help a lot to see that it's coming from her hurt and distortions, and not really from you. Congratulations on getting to that point.
And secretly I've been enjoying you calling her Mean Woman. It's the kind of thing one can't really do IRL. But I think it's a good sign that you've given her a name now.
pegasus
Posted by tabitha on July 23, 2004, at 1:33:23
In reply to Re: A different group session. Hope at last?, posted by pegasus on July 21, 2004, at 12:07:14
Well, that positive glow lasted only a day, then all the insults came to mind, and I couldn't help comparing the severity of them to one thing I had said a couple weeks ago, that the T encouraged me to offer an apology about, after MW (yup, I'm calling her Mean Woman again tonight) made an issue of it. What I said wasn't even an insult, it was just a challenging question, and not about her at all, though I recognize it came from a defensive place in me. She said some awful things, criticisms, accusations, and in an angry, even contemptous voice. A whole load of stuff. An onslaught. I don't even want to repeat it here for fear someone might agree with her. I know some of those criticisms will stay with me, and anytime in the future I'm doing what she criticized, they'll come up again. It will take me a long time to shake them off.
I started thinking my positive outlook that I posted here was some kind of desperate effort on my part to make what happened be OK. Like that syndrome where people fall in love with their kidnappers, or when kids make excuses for their abusive family. Or like I'm so desperate for approval from the T and to succeed in the group, I'm ignoring my own pain to get it.
My T tells me I need to have boundaries against stuff like this and not let it in to hurt me. She tells me that MW isn't seeing me clearly, she has dirty glasses on, and she has incomplete information about me. I get that, it's a good idea, but I don't seem able to do it consistently or completely. I'd really rather some stranger in the street shouted at me or cussed at me-- I'd know that had nothing to do with me. MW's stuff has just enough of a grain of truth in it to make me doubt myself.
Then I worry I'm actually exposing myself to abuse, and not taking care of myself, because no matter what they say it is, it feels like abuse to me.
So in my individual session once again I was ready to tell her I'm quitting group, quitting therapy, walking away to take care of myself.
We argued quite a bit about it. At least she admitted that MW was attacking me, that it's escalating, that she's attacking because she's hurt by what I said about her. I still couldn't fully understand why this is necessary or valuable. I asked for more tips on how to not let this get to me. I'm not sure if her suggestions were helpful or not.
Then at the very end I told her how I'd felt so hopeful and positive for a whole day after the session. She brightened up and said that was my adult or my higher self or something, and those were the new ideas, and it was hard not to fall back to the old thinking. So I told her that high lasted only a day, and it wasn't a grounded feeling-- it was like I'd abandoned my little girl and left her there to feel abused, while I was off with my new thinking seeing the whole situation as OK somehow.
I realized that's pretty much what's been causing the rollercoaster. I can sign up to these new ideas, I can believe in Bizzarro World for a day or so, but meanwhile my little girl is still feeling abused, and then abandoned, because I'm off with my new ideas, where everything's OK. But she still feels hurt. So then I flip back into the old thinking.
So my T tried to tell me how to keep the new ideas, and comfort her at the same time, so I don't have to flip-flop I'm not sure I got it entirely, but I think we're on the right track.
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2004, at 8:23:01
In reply to Re: more rollercoaster, posted by tabitha on July 23, 2004, at 1:33:23
> My T tells me I need to have boundaries against stuff like this and not let it in to hurt me.
IMHO, or perhaps in my own experience, the only way to not let stuff hurt me is to not give a d*mn. If I don't have any emotional attachment whatsoever to a person or to a group, it's easy to not let things hurt me. It's easy to look at someone like MW as if she were some sort of interesting science experiment. If you care at all about someone you're giving them the power to hurt you. That's part of (in my experience anyway) the risks and rewards of caring.
How does your therapist propose both keeping yourself emotionally open and vulnerable to someone (which to me is the key to caring) while still not letting their unkind words hurt you?
I also think it's probably true that many of us try to do the right or socially accepted thing, and do let our authentic selves and our authentic feelings suffer for it. The little Tabitha (or Dinah) inside. Is that a good thing? I'm not sure. Part of me says of course it's a good thing. It's realistic, it's pragmatic. A part of me says it's a betrayal of my own self.
I've spent most of my life learning to emotionally divorce those things that cause me pain. It's only through therapy that I've learned to be open emotionally, to take chances, to *let* people hurt me and to repair those hurts to develop deeper and more meaningful relationships as opposed to the more superficial relationships you have when I *don't* let others hurt me, when I leave the boundaries up. To listen to my vulnerable side more, and to set aside extreme rationality. Is that a good thing? At the moment, I'm leaning towards thinking I was safer and happier before therapy.
My therapist's "new way of thinking or being" is the polar opposite of your therapist's "new way". :) If this is the case, there has to be value judgements in there somewhere. That different therapists believe different things or have different priorities. If that is the case, then my therapist's viewpoint has just as much chance of being valid as your therapist's viewpoint. And if *that* is the case, your viewpoint is just as valid as your therapist's. In which case you need to decide what's best for you, what has worked better for you in your life, and what you want to see your future interactions to look like (given the imperfect nature of human relationships as a whole).
I'm struggling with this myself right now, as I think my therapist's point of view may be feel good cr*p due to his rather optimistic view of human nature.
Posted by tabitha on July 23, 2004, at 13:34:52
In reply to Re: more rollercoaster, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2004, at 8:23:01
Thanks. Your more anti-therapy sentiments make me laugh right now.
My T seems to think it's possible to have boundaries that let the good feelings in, but keep the bad feelings out. I've argued with her about this-- for me I'm either open or closed. If the good stuff can get in, then so can the bad stuff. And I can tolerate some bad stuff, if it's balanced with good stuff. With MW, there's just so little good, and so much bad. I'd definitely walk away from her if it were any other type of relationship. But if I shut her out, then I don't see how I can be open in the group. It's not like babble where I can selectively read or reply. We're all trapped in there and forced to interact.
This morning I woke up thinking I'm not going back. At least not next week. This, after a night of nightmares about someone breaking into my house. Definitely not feeling safe. And I'm usually most irrationally upset at night, and most rational and calm in the morning.
It's tiring.
Aren't we brave for even opening ourselves up to this brainwashing experience? Out with the old ways, in with the new. Ain't it grand.
(rather cynical for now)
Posted by rockymtnhi on July 23, 2004, at 17:44:56
In reply to Re: more rollercoaster » Dinah, posted by tabitha on July 23, 2004, at 13:34:52
Hello Tabitha,
I have been watching your posts because I am in a group too. Even though you are experiencing pain, which I am sorry for, you have been an inspiration to me. (Your lemons have been my lemonade).
I just started going to group a few months ago. There is one woman in particular who never has anything nice to say to me or about me. I have just listened but her comments but they have been hurtful. I have been hesitant to say anything back in fear of letting her have it. The group therapist has stopped her from doing a full on attack like yours seems to be doing.
I don't know if I am getting anything out of the group and feel like quitting therapy (individual and group) altogether but I really feel like I need the help.
I don't think that I ever like it when a therapist suggests that I am using my adult or "higher" self. I just don't trust it.
Sorry to be such a downer about my own stuff. Sometimes after reading your posts, I feel like I can go back to group for one more week.....
Posted by JenStar on July 24, 2004, at 13:06:31
In reply to Re: more rollercoaster, posted by tabitha on July 23, 2004, at 1:33:23
hi Tabitha,
sorry about the bad experience! I want to offer my viewpoint, but carefully, b/c I definitely don't want to offend you. Please feel free to ignore my stuff if it doesn't "fit." :)When I read about an experience like yours in group, lots of questions come to mind (that probably can't be answered easily.)
Does the T have an ulterior motive in group? i.e., is she interested in watching the group dynamics unfold, much like a scientist calmly observing lab rats? Is she curious to see how the dominant personalities overwhelm the gentler ones, and who takes charge, who retreats, how people band together? And because this is so interesting, is she really doing everything possible to 'fix' the issues, rather than observe them?
Is the T (or anyone!) really qualified to watch a group interact and offer the best advice to EVERYONE on how best to get along? If it were so easy to do this, wouldn't our society be more peaceful now? (rhetorical questions, I'm sure!)Or..is the T trying to help you become more defensive of yourself in a positive way; trying to help you turn a mean person into a nice one using the powers of persuasion and negotiation?
This one would be the most positive option, of course. To that end, is she offering you advice on how to mend the rift, how to listen effectively, how to use "I" statements? Does she offer techniques for dealing with difficult people? Has she offered to sit down with the 2 of you and hash it all out?
I've been a manager for years, and some of the most difficult problems are not the technical ones, but the interpersonal ones. As a manager it's so important to help people get along, to understand different viewpoints, and to coexist somewhat peacefully when they're just not going to like each other at heart. Obviously people management and group therapy are very different, but moderating ANY group successfully, I think, involves some of the same techniques.
Hopefully your T is trying to do help the relationship.
I know I was kind of blunt in a previous post where I urged you to be Donald Trump and say "you're fired" if the T isn't good for you. I was kind of being funny, although I realized it really isn't that simple.
I just hope this T is doing more good than harm, and that group is a helpful place and not just a social experiment.
Keep in mind that some people ARE just mean and manipulative. They know how to take a kernel of truth and twist it, exaggerate it, play on it and your weaknesses (b/c they know how to press buttons!) to make you feel weak and guilty. Maybe Mean Woman is good at that. Just because she starts with a piece of truth, it doesn't mean that everything she says is right. She may be one of those people who like to see the world as "you're with her or you're against me."
Trust your instincts. If this person is just a jerk, don't stand for the rude behavior. i can't say that I know you well, obviously, but you seem sweet and kind and thoughtful from your posts. It makes me mad to think of this mean woman b***ing and complaining, and the T not nipping it in the bud.
Anyway, I know my ideas may not be on the mark, but I do care and I hope things get better.
JenStar
> Well, that positive glow lasted only a day, then all the insults came to mind, and I couldn't help comparing the severity of them to one thing I had said a couple weeks ago, that the T encouraged me to offer an apology about, after MW (yup, I'm calling her Mean Woman again tonight) made an issue of it. What I said wasn't even an insult, it was just a challenging question, and not about her at all, though I recognize it came from a defensive place in me. She said some awful things, criticisms, accusations, and in an angry, even contemptous voice. A whole load of stuff. An onslaught. I don't even want to repeat it here for fear someone might agree with her. I know some of those criticisms will stay with me, and anytime in the future I'm doing what she criticized, they'll come up again. It will take me a long time to shake them off.
>
> I started thinking my positive outlook that I posted here was some kind of desperate effort on my part to make what happened be OK. Like that syndrome where people fall in love with their kidnappers, or when kids make excuses for their abusive family. Or like I'm so desperate for approval from the T and to succeed in the group, I'm ignoring my own pain to get it.
>
> My T tells me I need to have boundaries against stuff like this and not let it in to hurt me. She tells me that MW isn't seeing me clearly, she has dirty glasses on, and she has incomplete information about me. I get that, it's a good idea, but I don't seem able to do it consistently or completely. I'd really rather some stranger in the street shouted at me or cussed at me-- I'd know that had nothing to do with me. MW's stuff has just enough of a grain of truth in it to make me doubt myself.
>
> Then I worry I'm actually exposing myself to abuse, and not taking care of myself, because no matter what they say it is, it feels like abuse to me.
>
> So in my individual session once again I was ready to tell her I'm quitting group, quitting therapy, walking away to take care of myself.
>
> We argued quite a bit about it. At least she admitted that MW was attacking me, that it's escalating, that she's attacking because she's hurt by what I said about her. I still couldn't fully understand why this is necessary or valuable. I asked for more tips on how to not let this get to me. I'm not sure if her suggestions were helpful or not.
>
> Then at the very end I told her how I'd felt so hopeful and positive for a whole day after the session. She brightened up and said that was my adult or my higher self or something, and those were the new ideas, and it was hard not to fall back to the old thinking. So I told her that high lasted only a day, and it wasn't a grounded feeling-- it was like I'd abandoned my little girl and left her there to feel abused, while I was off with my new thinking seeing the whole situation as OK somehow.
>
> I realized that's pretty much what's been causing the rollercoaster. I can sign up to these new ideas, I can believe in Bizzarro World for a day or so, but meanwhile my little girl is still feeling abused, and then abandoned, because I'm off with my new ideas, where everything's OK. But she still feels hurt. So then I flip back into the old thinking.
>
> So my T tried to tell me how to keep the new ideas, and comfort her at the same time, so I don't have to flip-flop I'm not sure I got it entirely, but I think we're on the right track.
Posted by JenStar on July 24, 2004, at 13:16:42
In reply to Re: more rollercoaster, posted by tabitha on July 23, 2004, at 1:33:23
hi Tabitha,
I had a few more ideas. Maybe your T realizes that you are the more mature of the two (you & MW) and that's why she's asking YOU to apologize, even though MW really should be doing it.Sometimes people quickly veer from defensive to friendly after you (I, anyone) makes a friendly overture. They realize they are wrong but pride prohibits them from admitting it, and the escalate further and further into bad behavior.
Once YOU take the higher road, offer the olive branch, act all submissive and apologetic, then SHE might turn around & do the same thing. You know inside that she should have apologized first, but she might need an example or a prodding to get there, esp. if she's troubled and perhaps using her anger at YOU to mask real anger at herself, her problems, etc.
Maybe it's a kind of "turn the other cheek" policy. I suppose it's worth a shot! And if that doesn't work, a swift kick to her rear might help you feel better. (<--- joking...but sometimes it feels better just to think these thoughts, even if you can't act them out!)
anyway, I guess life is full of MW's, all over the place. Maybe your T is trying to help you deal with her here, so you can deal with all the other ones that are randomly scattered through life in every situation.
Good Luck! keep us updated.
JenStar
> Well, that positive glow lasted only a day, then all the insults came to mind, and I couldn't help comparing the severity of them to one thing I had said a couple weeks ago, that the T encouraged me to offer an apology about, after MW (yup, I'm calling her Mean Woman again tonight) made an issue of it. What I said wasn't even an insult, it was just a challenging question, and not about her at all, though I recognize it came from a defensive place in me. She said some awful things, criticisms, accusations, and in an angry, even contemptous voice. A whole load of stuff. An onslaught. I don't even want to repeat it here for fear someone might agree with her. I know some of those criticisms will stay with me, and anytime in the future I'm doing what she criticized, they'll come up again. It will take me a long time to shake them off.
>
> I started thinking my positive outlook that I posted here was some kind of desperate effort on my part to make what happened be OK. Like that syndrome where people fall in love with their kidnappers, or when kids make excuses for their abusive family. Or like I'm so desperate for approval from the T and to succeed in the group, I'm ignoring my own pain to get it.
>
> My T tells me I need to have boundaries against stuff like this and not let it in to hurt me. She tells me that MW isn't seeing me clearly, she has dirty glasses on, and she has incomplete information about me. I get that, it's a good idea, but I don't seem able to do it consistently or completely. I'd really rather some stranger in the street shouted at me or cussed at me-- I'd know that had nothing to do with me. MW's stuff has just enough of a grain of truth in it to make me doubt myself.
>
> Then I worry I'm actually exposing myself to abuse, and not taking care of myself, because no matter what they say it is, it feels like abuse to me.
>
> So in my individual session once again I was ready to tell her I'm quitting group, quitting therapy, walking away to take care of myself.
>
> We argued quite a bit about it. At least she admitted that MW was attacking me, that it's escalating, that she's attacking because she's hurt by what I said about her. I still couldn't fully understand why this is necessary or valuable. I asked for more tips on how to not let this get to me. I'm not sure if her suggestions were helpful or not.
>
> Then at the very end I told her how I'd felt so hopeful and positive for a whole day after the session. She brightened up and said that was my adult or my higher self or something, and those were the new ideas, and it was hard not to fall back to the old thinking. So I told her that high lasted only a day, and it wasn't a grounded feeling-- it was like I'd abandoned my little girl and left her there to feel abused, while I was off with my new thinking seeing the whole situation as OK somehow.
>
> I realized that's pretty much what's been causing the rollercoaster. I can sign up to these new ideas, I can believe in Bizzarro World for a day or so, but meanwhile my little girl is still feeling abused, and then abandoned, because I'm off with my new ideas, where everything's OK. But she still feels hurt. So then I flip back into the old thinking.
>
> So my T tried to tell me how to keep the new ideas, and comfort her at the same time, so I don't have to flip-flop I'm not sure I got it entirely, but I think we're on the right track.
Posted by JenStar on July 24, 2004, at 15:44:47
In reply to Re: more rollercoaster, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2004, at 8:23:01
hi Dinah,
just wanted to say that I enjoy reading many of your posts & admire your outlook on life. You give good advice. Even if it's not directly for me, I still get something out of reading your replies.Thanks!
> > My T tells me I need to have boundaries against stuff like this and not let it in to hurt me.
>
> IMHO, or perhaps in my own experience, the only way to not let stuff hurt me is to not give a d*mn. If I don't have any emotional attachment whatsoever to a person or to a group, it's easy to not let things hurt me. It's easy to look at someone like MW as if she were some sort of interesting science experiment. If you care at all about someone you're giving them the power to hurt you. That's part of (in my experience anyway) the risks and rewards of caring.
>
> How does your therapist propose both keeping yourself emotionally open and vulnerable to someone (which to me is the key to caring) while still not letting their unkind words hurt you?
>
> I also think it's probably true that many of us try to do the right or socially accepted thing, and do let our authentic selves and our authentic feelings suffer for it. The little Tabitha (or Dinah) inside. Is that a good thing? I'm not sure. Part of me says of course it's a good thing. It's realistic, it's pragmatic. A part of me says it's a betrayal of my own self.
>
> I've spent most of my life learning to emotionally divorce those things that cause me pain. It's only through therapy that I've learned to be open emotionally, to take chances, to *let* people hurt me and to repair those hurts to develop deeper and more meaningful relationships as opposed to the more superficial relationships you have when I *don't* let others hurt me, when I leave the boundaries up. To listen to my vulnerable side more, and to set aside extreme rationality. Is that a good thing? At the moment, I'm leaning towards thinking I was safer and happier before therapy.
>
> My therapist's "new way of thinking or being" is the polar opposite of your therapist's "new way". :) If this is the case, there has to be value judgements in there somewhere. That different therapists believe different things or have different priorities. If that is the case, then my therapist's viewpoint has just as much chance of being valid as your therapist's viewpoint. And if *that* is the case, your viewpoint is just as valid as your therapist's. In which case you need to decide what's best for you, what has worked better for you in your life, and what you want to see your future interactions to look like (given the imperfect nature of human relationships as a whole).
>
> I'm struggling with this myself right now, as I think my therapist's point of view may be feel good cr*p due to his rather optimistic view of human nature.
This is the end of the thread.
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