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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by crushedout on April 24, 2004, at 14:57:20
I've been thinking a lot about my longing for my T and the conversation we're supposed to have about that next week. How I want her to cuddle me. So I found this discussion, which I thought was interesting, although the writer seems unconventional, to say the least.
http://primal-page.com/pvjan01.htm
What do you all think? I think it might really be healing for me if my T were to hold me.
Posted by terrics on April 24, 2004, at 16:50:24
In reply to Would it be ok for my T to hold me?, posted by crushedout on April 24, 2004, at 14:57:20
Hi Crushed, I think I am a born pessimist, but personally I would not do it. You have sexual feelings for this woman and sometimes it sounds like they are reciprocated. It could turn painful for one or both of you. I understand where you are coming from because I would love my old T. to hold me, but I know I would want more. terrics
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2004, at 20:26:34
In reply to Would it be ok for my T to hold me?, posted by crushedout on April 24, 2004, at 14:57:20
Now, Crushed.......
:)
Posted by crushedout on April 24, 2004, at 20:45:54
In reply to Re: Would it be ok for my T to hold me?, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2004, at 20:26:34
Posted by crushedout on April 24, 2004, at 20:50:49
In reply to Re: Would it be ok for my T to hold me? » crushedout, posted by terrics on April 24, 2004, at 16:50:24
Yeah, I know I would want more, but I also think it might be healing. And maybe I wouldn't? Anyway, I'm gonna ask her.
> Hi Crushed, I think I am a born pessimist, but personally I would not do it. You have sexual feelings for this woman and sometimes it sounds like they are reciprocated. It could turn painful for one or both of you. I understand where you are coming from because I would love my old T. to hold me, but I know I would want more. terrics
Posted by fallsfall on April 24, 2004, at 21:52:15
In reply to Re: Would it be ok for my T to hold me? » terrics, posted by crushedout on April 24, 2004, at 20:50:49
>Yeah, I know I would want more, but I also think it might be healing. And maybe I wouldn't? Anyway, I'm gonna ask her.
Crushed,
You say "I *KNOW* I would want more"
You say "I *THINK* it *MIGHT* be healing"
You say "*MAYBE* I wouldn't"
So the negative thing is a sure thing, and the positive things are only possibilities.
Somehow that doesn't add up (in my Mathematician's brain) to a good risk.
I would encourage you to talk to her about *why* you want her to hold you. But that is different from asking her *to* hold you.
Please be careful.
Posted by crushedout on April 25, 2004, at 0:29:44
In reply to Re: Would it be ok for my T to hold me? » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on April 24, 2004, at 21:52:15
I hear what you're saying, falls. In my sick little mind, I like you saying "be careful" because it means maybe something could really happen.I just read about a survey of therapists who'd been in therapy. Of 400, 26% had been held or cradled in a nonsexual way by their therapists. Isn't that a crazy statistic? I'm totally freaking out. I want her to cradle and hold me sooooooooooooooooooooo much.
Posted by tinydancer on April 25, 2004, at 4:05:35
In reply to Re: Would it be ok for my T to hold me? » fallsfall, posted by crushedout on April 25, 2004, at 0:29:44
First off, the article wasn't all bad-I thought the other had some good points, although he kind of blew it for me with his statement about overweight people! (For him to claim his viewpoint and say that he can't hold overweight people, kind of invalidated his point of view for me altogether.) But that doesn't mean some of his points were valid.
I think when it comes to touching and holding in therapy, it needs to be analyzed thoroughly before actually doing it. Believe me, I know how you feel because I'm going through it with my own T, but he's chosen to take his time, and its for my well being. I think that has meant a lot to me, because he always puts me first. What about talking to your T about what you would want to happen and what you think would happen afterwards? Or you can answer me here even, if you don't want to talk to your T.
Posted by lonelygirl on April 25, 2004, at 4:34:15
In reply to Re: Would it be ok for my T to hold me? » crushedout, posted by tinydancer on April 25, 2004, at 4:05:35
I didn't read the article until you mentioned that he said this, so I went and looked... Wow, that is interesting that he came right out and said he is too disgusted by overweight people to be able to hold them. Nice.
Posted by tinydancer on April 25, 2004, at 4:34:38
In reply to Would it be ok for my T to hold me?, posted by crushedout on April 24, 2004, at 14:57:20
I'm reading it now! WOW! It's kind of freaking me out. But its fascinating. I recommend reading it.
I don't agree with everything but it really is mind opening anyway.
Posted by tinydancer on April 25, 2004, at 7:45:24
In reply to Re: Would it be ok for my T to hold me? » tinydancer, posted by lonelygirl on April 25, 2004, at 4:34:15
> I didn't read the article until you mentioned that he said this, so I went and looked... Wow, that is interesting that he came right out and said he is too disgusted by overweight people to be able to hold them. Nice.
It's especially despicable based on his therapy approach-as if overweight people are somehow less valuable than others. A therapist should be able to transcend outward appearances and respect people for who they are, a human spirit who is wounded and in need of help.
I guess overweight people really are the last permissible prejudice-imagine if he had used "Chinese people" or "handicapped people"? Totally unacceptable!
Posted by crushedout on April 25, 2004, at 8:07:59
In reply to Re: Would it be ok for my T to hold me? » crushedout, posted by tinydancer on April 25, 2004, at 4:05:35
Yeah, that stuff about overweight people put me off, too, although I sort of respect him for being honest about it. Also, his heterosexist boarding school cr*p. But I agree it doesn't invalidate everything he says.That makes sense to analyze it thoroughly first. Do you mean to say that you and your T are talking about it, and that he may actually hold you at some point? That's what it sounds like you're saying.
I'm afraid to answer you, and I would be afraid to answer my T honestly, about what I would want to have happen after, because if I tell the truth, then I probably shouldn't get held, and that doesn't seem fair.
Posted by crushedout on April 25, 2004, at 8:18:41
In reply to Online Book from Paul Vereshack » crushedout, posted by tinydancer on April 25, 2004, at 4:34:38
Thanks, tiny! I haven't looked at it yet, but I will.
Posted by tinydancer on April 25, 2004, at 8:42:44
In reply to Re: Would it be ok for my T to hold me? » tinydancer, posted by crushedout on April 25, 2004, at 8:07:59
Crushedout said:
> Yeah, that stuff about overweight people put me off, too, although I sort of respect him for being honest about it. Also, his heterosexist boarding school cr*p. But I agree it doesn't invalidate everything he says.What I probably respect most is that he is breaking new ground and is very bold in his beliefs. All the great icons of our modern society were people who, at the time, were mocked or ostracized for their "shocking" perspectives and treatment ideas.
But I liked what he said about the constrictions of modern therapy, and he seems extremely cautious to me. But the therapy he describes sounds mind boggling and I know for a fact would induce permanent psychosis in me. I feel like I've learned a great deal from picking bits and pieces out from the whole picture of what he says. And did you see his picture? He looks like this cozy old grandfather fellow-I KNEW somehow he would!> That makes sense to analyze it thoroughly first. Do you mean to say that you and your T are talking about it, and that he may actually hold you at some point? That's what it sounds like you're saying.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. My T said "If I really thought it would help you to sit in my lap I would." But its certainly nothing I'm anticipating happening anytime soon. Neither him nor I are in any rush and he understands the depth of responsibility he has to me as my therapist and is very cautious about degrading the trusting relationship we have. We've talked about it and I've talked about why I feel its something I would want. I'm also interested in what would happen-I feel like it could possibly break down something in me that is so hardened-that I could develop a new level of trust in our relationship after that wall is demolished and its exciting to me to wonder about how that could affect my recovery.
> I'm afraid to answer you, and I would be afraid to answer my T honestly, about what I would want to have happen after, because if I tell the truth, then I probably shouldn't get held, and that doesn't seem fair.Why shouldn't you get held? Do you not feel safe enough to tell me what you are afraid of happening? Do you feel that your T is not in control of the situation?
The bottom line is that it is-like everything in therapy-a very individual case. One day I asked me T if we could go on a walk, and he got to telling me about a schizophrenic patient he had who he often went on walks with instead of sitting in an office talking. This was valuable for both of them because the patient felt less threatened and there was no ulterior isses that could threaten the balance and equality in their therapeutic relationship. So he wanted me to know that while he wasn't RULING out a walk someday, that it would have to be for a reason (a fairly good one) and not just for the sake of it, because of my feelings for him and the destructive possibilities of miscontruing actions and feelings.
I'm blabbing now but I hope you'll keep investigating this issue-as I like to say, when the going gets tough is when the work is really getting done and you're onto something. Don't give up!
Posted by tinydancer on April 25, 2004, at 8:43:18
In reply to Re: Online Book from Paul Vereshack » tinydancer, posted by crushedout on April 25, 2004, at 8:18:41
>
> Thanks, tiny! I haven't looked at it yet, but I will.
It isn't long at all, and its a fascinating read. Looking forward to your feedback! :)
Posted by rs on April 25, 2004, at 11:11:40
In reply to Would it be ok for my T to hold me?, posted by crushedout on April 24, 2004, at 14:57:20
Do not post often but you folks are the best. Just wish could start more often but feel like would be jumping in. Sorry.
Would like to share aboout this discussion. This is so strange because just this week wrote about this to T. Am DID and there is a little one (ones) that are so fragile and in need of some physical holding. Anyway it was a very embarrasing topic to write and talk about. But know it is something that is needed strongly from the inside. Anyway he talked about it and says he is willing to do it with the little ones but was is it ok with me and he would have to check with others to makes sure they have no issues with it. Yes again it hurts so bad knowing how this is a strong need from the inside. But the neglect and abuse that went on was also very very painful etc. Would I look at it as a sexual thing? No for personal reasons. Anyway thanks for sharing on this topic. Here it is so painful and embarassing to want this need in the part of healing.
Posted by lucy stone on April 25, 2004, at 13:03:52
In reply to Re: Online Book from Paul Vereshack » tinydancer, posted by crushedout on April 25, 2004, at 8:18:41
I am very interested in this topic because I also fantasize about my T holding me. I have a very powerful "comforting" fantasy that involves being held by a comforting older male while I am crying. I have had it since I was a an adolescent and talk about endlessly in therapy. My T has made it clear that he will under no circumstances play out the fantasy physically. I can go anywhere I want in fantasy but it cannot cross the line into the physical. I keep trying to find ways to manipulate him into doing it but I know it will never happen. I do occaisionally get a hug but I will not ask for one more than once every few months. I know this is for the best because the reality of his holding me would never match what I experience in the fantasy. The reality would be that it would be akward and embarassing and I am much better working it through by talking than by putting it into reality. Knowing that it will never happen with him keeps me safe, but it doesn't stop the longing! I looked at the online book, and while it is applealing to me on some level I can see how it could be dangerous if not done correctly. I think that therapists using this technique would have to be highly trained and experinced and the patients would have to be carefully selected. I would be very cautious of any T using these techniques who didn't know what s/he was doing. I was also put off by his statement that he wouldn't hold fat people. It makes me suspicious of the whole thing, like maybe he is getting some sexual jollies out of it.
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2004, at 13:06:27
In reply to Re: Would it be ok for my T to hold me? » tinydancer, posted by lonelygirl on April 25, 2004, at 4:34:15
Yeah, really nice. He certainly gave my self esteem a boost. Lucky clients he has.
Posted by tabitha on April 25, 2004, at 14:54:52
In reply to Re: Online Book from Paul Vereshack, posted by lucy stone on April 25, 2004, at 13:03:52
Very interesting. I liked those ideas about nurture and how during adolescence you somehow switch over into seeing nurture as a sexual thing. I've never quite heard it put that way before. I think at some level I don't accept that there are forms of nurture that are non-sexual. I think that's part of why I reject feeling more of an attachment to my therapist (and others)-- because I can't accept nurture in a non-sexual situation.
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2004, at 17:12:03
In reply to Re: Online Book from Paul Vereshack, posted by tabitha on April 25, 2004, at 14:54:52
Wow, Tabitha. That's interesting. I must have totally missed that stage of development, because I see sexual stuff and nurturing as totally separate. If my husband combines them, I get all upset.
I'm obviously going to have to listen to this guy myself.
Posted by KindGirl on April 26, 2004, at 19:33:20
In reply to Re: Online Book from Paul Vereshack » tabitha, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2004, at 17:12:03
Hey everyone,
You all know (if you have read anything by me) that my T holds me every session. Last session I asked her to hold me the whole hour. I love it when she holds me, and when she started holding me, oddly enough the sexual feelings/fantasies went away and I saw her more of a mother figure from that point on. I see her on Thursday and I am going to ask her to hold me again.She has been a therapist for 20 plus years and is very well known in my area, and I am so glad I got the nerve to ask her. I was left alone and physically neglected since I was an infant, and I know I crave this so much. She always thanks me for letting me hold her and for sharing my tears with her....there is nothing like it in the world to be held by someone who knows you, who sees you, and who cares.
Best of luck to you if/when you ask (or don't ask!)
Posted by crushedout on April 26, 2004, at 20:26:32
In reply to Online Book from Paul Vereshack » crushedout, posted by tinydancer on April 25, 2004, at 4:34:38
i'm finally reading it, in the middle of it now. I don't know what to make of it yet. it definitely seems nontraditional.
> I'm reading it now! WOW! It's kind of freaking me out. But its fascinating. I recommend reading it.
>
> http://www.paulvereshack.com
>
> I don't agree with everything but it really is mind opening anyway.
Posted by Dinah on May 2, 2004, at 19:40:28
In reply to Would it be ok for my T to hold me?, posted by crushedout on April 24, 2004, at 14:57:20
Does anyone know the implications of this excerpt from that link?
by Paul Vereshack M.D.
(Notwithstanding his M.D. Dr. Vereshack is not a licensed physician)
Posted by crushedout on May 2, 2004, at 19:44:37
In reply to Re: Would it be ok for my T to hold me?, posted by Dinah on May 2, 2004, at 19:40:28
Well, he did have his license challenged because of some sexual stuff with his clients, but I thought it was eventually resolved in his favor. If you read the book that tinydancer found, you'll see he let his clients do some pretty unconventional (sexual) stuff which he now thinks is not a good idea (although I think his reasoning in letting them do it originally was pretty sound, even though that seems crazy).
Posted by Dinah on May 2, 2004, at 20:00:24
In reply to Re: Would it be ok for my T to hold me? » Dinah, posted by crushedout on May 2, 2004, at 19:44:37
This is the end of the thread.
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