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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by .tabitha. on August 14, 2002, at 3:04:09
Lately I notice I'm interpreting events in a negative way, and getting depressed. Intellectually I know about cognitive therapy, and think if I could find the distorted thoughts I could prevent the depression. I'm just not good at it though. What's more, one negative event at work colors everything else. First I see everything negative at work, then it extends to the rest of my life. I can find some of the thoughts, but my mood still doesn't lift. It's not until external events actually improve that I feel better. Has anyone had any success with this stuff?
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2002, at 6:07:45
In reply to skewing negative, posted by .tabitha. on August 14, 2002, at 3:04:09
I have to admit, Tabitha, that I have better luck with the behavioral techniques than the cognitive ones. If I try to replace my thoughts, I end up just saying something along the lines of "So what, I know that intellectually, what on earth difference does it make to how I FEEL?"
I also tend to think it works better on anxiety than depression.
I guess I agree with those who think that the feelings give rise to the thoughts, rather than those who believe the thoughts give rise to the feelings.
Sometimes I can have an insight that genuinely changes how I think about something and therefore how I feel about it. But the more mechanical cognitive therapy never works for me, and generally irritates me.
Of course, I realize that it does work for a lot of people. I just get this horrible Stuart Smalley feeling about the whole thing.
So... Maybe a deeper level of understanding would help? Not just identifying and replacing negative cognitions, but understanding why they exist, what reinforcement you get for the beliefs, etc. Addressing one level deeper than the cognitive beliefs themselves? If that makes any sense....
Posted by .tabitha. on August 14, 2002, at 11:45:02
In reply to Re: skewing negative » .tabitha., posted by Dinah on August 14, 2002, at 6:07:45
Thanks Dinah,
After I posted this I found that whole thread on CBT up above. It seems like some people get benefit from the _Feeling Good_ type of stuff and some don't. My therapist also gave me a book called _Mind Over Mood_ that was similar. I just didn't get much out of it. I could fill in the little exercises and not seem to get any change in how I felt. Often when I'm upset about something, my therapist will point out that I'm attaching meaning to it (like a small disappointment at work becomes "nobody values me" then "my work is no good" and worse). I can see these thoughts and challenge them, but the cloud of misery remains.
I don't know what you mean by behavioral techniques, can you give an example?
I agree about getting more benefit from insight. For me often an insight will clear up a longstanding source of pain permanently. It's just not something you can sit down and do on command, unfortunately.
Posted by terra miller on August 14, 2002, at 22:57:50
In reply to skewing negative, posted by .tabitha. on August 14, 2002, at 3:04:09
hi. if things aren't going emotionally and thinking-wise where they should be and i'm feeling overwhelmed or ... well, how you said it. this is what i do: i try to stop in my tracks mentally and pull everything in. i try to make my world smaller. then i can get more control. once i've got back on track, then i slowly let myself out further.
this would look practically like this: say i'm feeling weirded out at work with something a coworker said that made me wonder what she meant by it... then i may see that worker talking to somebody else and my mind starts going away from me- maybe she's talking about me/whatever.... you know, things you don't really know unless you ask directly (which i don't relish doing). anyway, usually i can recognize this, and it feels like i'm headed downhill like a snowball. so that's when i stop myself and regroup and make my world small and go backwards to what i know is good about me and why i like myself. then i move outward from that point until i get to where i'm thinking again about the coworker. often then i've regrouped and concluded that i could care less what the coworker thinks; and i can get clarification if i want or not want. ultimately it doesn't matter because i like me regardless of my circumstances.
but i have to go backward and find that sometimes. but once i find it, then i can rejoin my current situation and look at it much differently and without anxiety.
depression comes when i dwell on it too long without doing something about it.
that's how i handle it anyway.
~terra
Posted by judy1 on August 14, 2002, at 23:11:18
In reply to Re: skewing negative » .tabitha., posted by terra miller on August 14, 2002, at 22:57:50
That's a really useful technique that I've never tried, so I wanted to thank you for explaining it. I'm having a lot of difficulty now with losing control, almost like an avalanche of feelings which cause me to completely dissociate. How are you able to identify what's triggering you- obviously if it's a coworker saying something you can identify it, but what if it's something that's not so obvious? Are you still able to use the same technique? I didn't want to start another thread so I apologize to the original poster, maybe this will help her also. Just being flooded lately, and my instinct is to stay away from my therapist, maybe that's a dumb idea? Thanks Terra- judy
Posted by .tabitha. on August 14, 2002, at 23:44:23
In reply to Thank you for posting that » terra miller, posted by judy1 on August 14, 2002, at 23:11:18
Very interesting idea Terra. I think I'll try that. I'm not sure I really have a small core where I'm OK. I'll have to find out.
Judy, thanks for being considerate, but I'm just as interested in this technique as you are.
Posted by Medusa on August 15, 2002, at 0:26:12
In reply to skewing negative, posted by .tabitha. on August 14, 2002, at 3:04:09
> Lately I notice I'm interpreting events in a
> negative way, and getting depressed.Hey Tabitha,
I can't say I've had "success" with cognitive therapy - I don't even know that much about it.
What +has+ helped is to -once I can find the thought- question the thought. Sometimes I can't get far (maybe learning formal techniques, like from the Burns book, would help here but my anxiety levels get too high for me to get through a page) but I can at least bring it to a truce.
Example: "I'm such a loser." - Okay, in what ways are you a loser? - "Every way." - That's not an answer, so either come up with specifics or we'll leave it undecided for now.
Other times I do take it further. "I'm unemployed, thus a total loser." - Well, you haven't 'lost' at every possible job in the world yet. What you've been most unsuccessful at is getting yourself out there and looking for a job. What can you do realistically to improve this?
I guess I've had the most "success" with no longer getting really self-condemning when I screw up social situations. I started asking myself, 'Okay, what went wrong, and what can you learn from this, to do better next time?' and this kind of self-coaching has come out positively in a few situations. Recently I had a horrible conversation with my lawyer, and he pulled out all of these condescending not-so-subtle anti-female comments. I ended the conversation, and was horrified that I had let this go on. But I realised, I'd only heard of these style comments, never dealt with them, and I have books on dealing with things like this. Now I'm glad to have faced this, in a relatively low-risk situation. (Not a job, for example.)
Hope this helps some.
M
Posted by terra miller on August 15, 2002, at 23:06:02
In reply to Thank you for posting that » terra miller, posted by judy1 on August 14, 2002, at 23:11:18
hi girls.
i think the term is called "centering." you "center down" in your mind. this is important if you dissociate, judy. and, tabitha, think of it as the place inside of you where you are pure and untouched. you can visualize it in your head as who you are when you were born, or other ways. (it's not the visualization that's important as much as knowing that there really is a place inside of you where you "are you" regardless of what anybody says about you. and i believe that you are good at that place because the original intention in your being created--this is NOT a faith discussion-- is good.)
the world gets crazy. people tell you who you are and who you should be from all directions. if you don't center down to see who YOU want you to be, then you get blown around all over the place by the whims of other people's opinions. when you center down, you know who you are and what you really want. when you center down, the opinions of other people don't matter as much. when you center down, nobody can hurt you.
judy, the co-worker example was fictitious but the priniciple is still the same even if you aren't aware. you don't have to know what is triggering you for you to center down. you can have no idea at all why you are panicking, but you can practice centering down. (also termed "grounding")
how was that explanation?
~terra
Posted by .tabitha. on August 16, 2002, at 0:42:58
In reply to centering, posted by terra miller on August 15, 2002, at 23:06:02
Interesting. The concept reminded me of "differentiation", which my therp tried to explain to me as having a stable sense of self regardless of how others are treating you.
I never thought of starting small, with just that core sense of being. I suppose then it could be expanded to include more and more aspects of the self?
Posted by .tabitha. on August 16, 2002, at 0:54:18
In reply to Re: skewing negative » .tabitha., posted by Medusa on August 15, 2002, at 0:26:12
Hi,
What you are describing is exactly what I mean by cognitive therapy techniques. Sounds like you're learning to talk back to those self-critical thoughts. That's still a tough one for me, my therapist really has to poke and prod me to question (much less talk back to) my inner critic.
I think I've made some progress with re-interpreting other people's intentions though. I used to be really bad about assuming people were somehow doing something against me, now I'm usually able to question those thoughts and come up with alternatives.
Thanks for your post.
T
Posted by judy1 on August 16, 2002, at 11:23:21
In reply to centering, posted by terra miller on August 15, 2002, at 23:06:02
Thanks Terra- I probably spend half my therapy hour 'grounding' myself in order not to dissociate. Feel the ground, your feet, etc., I think this is what you mean, but I don't go anywhere then- I stay in the present. When I dissociate, I go away- but I don't know all my triggers, and they seem to be everywhere and I guess I haven't gotten to the point where I can back off and 'center', I just go away. sounds like i have a lot to learn. take care, judy
Posted by terra miller on August 16, 2002, at 14:06:14
In reply to Re: centering, posted by .tabitha. on August 16, 2002, at 0:42:58
Posted by terra miller on August 16, 2002, at 14:13:31
In reply to Re: centering » terra miller, posted by judy1 on August 16, 2002, at 11:23:21
hi judy. centering can serve the purpose of grounding you, but i wouldn't say it's a grounding technique in what you described (feel your feet on the floor, etc.) you can prevent yourself from dissociating by centering- finding the small place inside of you that is good. sometimes you dissociate anyway, but i've found the dissociating to be less violent/angry if you know what i mean.
i read something interesting in that DID book i told you about (that is taking me forever to get through because i trigger after 2 pages!)... anyway, the point was that the goal that helps dissociating not happen as often is getting the client to the point when they can look at themselves and not be frighted or ashamed of what they see/or the behavior they see. this was profound to me because when i can't stand something, i just "change myself into someone i CAN stand." in this case it is adaptive, because i don't stay present long enough to dwell on the selfhatred that can lead to SI-ing. (of course, not that "I" do the changing. but i am aware enough--coconsciousness of sorts-- to know when i am no longer despising myself and in danger and now feel very competent and responsible. watching the whole thing happen is really weird. the only part i have in it all is trying to stay in the moment. sometimes it's too hard though.) anyway, thought i'd share that.
terra
Posted by judy1 on August 17, 2002, at 3:05:32
In reply to centering vs. grounding » judy1, posted by terra miller on August 16, 2002, at 14:13:31
Thanks, i understand now what you mean and i guess i have retreated to a good place on occasion- my therapist helped me along, but i'm not sure if i could do it by myself. you're fortunate that you've achieved co-conciousness, it sounds like that part of you is a very positive part. i know what you mean about reading the DID book, i put it down for a while because i was getting triggered constantly too. my therapist really likes that book- she wrote a blurb on the back. take care, judy
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