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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 40. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jay on September 13, 2006, at 9:50:43
Where we have gotten today...c'mon folks, let's get rational about this.
From a story I heard on the radio this morning by an ex-CIA person (a Republican, too..so this is from all sides.), that Bush et al where handed memos stating that "terrorists where training to fly into skyscrapers" as late as August of 2001. Bush wanted to spend more time on the Ranch, I guess.
-think flying is safer? Since Sept. 11/2001, as per capita with inflation mixed in, airport security spending in the U.S. has been reduced another 18 percent.
-Amnesty International has put America on par with countries like Iran because of the use of such things as torture, secret courts..prisoner for life with no trial..etc.
- Iraq....no need to explain that one.(And...some folks just don't get it...IRAQ has NOTHING to do with 9/11!)
"Patriot Act". The anti-civil-rights legislation. (The anti "everything", actually.)
And, for those of you who may be ticked off at people and governments in New York and area who where *supposed* to create a 9/11 memorial..well..this story from TheOnion.com sums it up..
Five Years Later
NYC Unveils 9/11 Memorial Hole
September 11, 2006 | Issue 42•36NEW YORK—Days before the fifth anniversary of the destruction of New York's World Trade Center by terrorists, city officials gathered on the site where the Twin Towers once stood to dedicate the newly completed 9/11 Memorial Hole.
"From the wreckage and ashes of the World Trade Center, we have created a recess in the ground befitting the American spirit," said New York Governor George Pataki from a cinderblock-and-plastic-bucket-supported plywood platform near the Hole's precipice. "This vast chasm, dug at the very spot where the gleaming Twin Towers once rose to the sky, is a symbol of what we can accomplish if we work together."
Pataki then cut a ceremonial ribbon to release a giant blue plastic tarpaulin, reportedly the largest of its kind, which fluttered and snapped while slowly settling into the detritus and mud at the bottom of the 70-foot Hole, drawing a long, tired sigh of resignation from the estimated crowd of 50,000 who had assembled to watch and shake their heads.
Begun only days after the 2001 attacks, the Hole covers almost the entire footprint of the original World Trade Center, contains over 16 acres of empty space, and is visible as far away as Hoboken, NJ. Over $175 million has been spent on the Hole's development, and thousands of pages of proposals and designs concerning the site in which the Hole was excavated were reviewed in over 2,800 hours of meetings. Work crews comprising more than 7,500 welders, equipment operators, excavators, and other construction specialists spent long, often unpaid shifts in its depths.
"These five years have been admittedly difficult," Pataki said. "Inevitably, we heard from the naysayers who said we would never accomplish anything on this site. To those people, I invite them to gaze down at this magnificent pit if they want proof of New Yorkers' dedication to this project."
The Hole contains several symbolic features: A massive reinforced-concrete foundation known before 9/11 as the "Bathtub" now serves as the renamed "Remembrance Facing." According to official memorial literature, a gently declining plane into the heart of the memorial stands for the gradual but steady passage of time, and permits construction vehicles to enter and exit the site. Chain-link fences symbolize the present but nonetheless scalable barriers between different cultures. Lastly, the "Eternal Puddle," perhaps the Hole's most notable and arresting, as well as bottommost, feature, allows visitors to reflect on the tragedy, while the rainwater-and-seepage-fed Puddle itself reflects muddy swirls and oil slicks.
Officials did not immediately explain the significance of the ubiquitous yellow "Keep Back" tape present at the site.
Pataki refused to take sole credit for the Hole's completion, instead congratulating former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani and current Mayor Mike Bloomberg, saying awareness of the World Trade Center site as a political symbol was important in ensuring the future of the Hole. Pataki also praised The Port Authority Of New York And New Jersey, "whose expert management of the site saw to it that nothing would obstruct the Hole once commuter-train service was restored.The governor also thanked site developer and leaseholder Larry Silverstein, whose "keen business sense and stubborn desire for the area to be profitable was instrumental in this effort."
Pataki expressed deep admiration for the families of the victims, saying that "their endless and highly vocal input about the memorial were crucial to making the Hole possible in time for the fifth anniversary of the attacks."
"And of course, I commend President George W. Bush, whose administration provided the kind of ample, unquestioning financial support to the rebuilding project for which they are famous, from New York to New Orleans," Pataki said. "Mr. President, you as much as anyone have made the dream of this hole a reality."
The ceremony concluded with a somber wreath-laying ceremony at the Grand Scaffold by former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerek.
"Let this circle of flowers—brief, beautiful, and too soon gone—symbolize the respect we have shown for the memories of those innocents who lost their lives on that sorrowful morning by creating this great hole," said the Reverend Charles Bourne of Lower Manhattan's Trinity Chapel as the flowers sank into the brown, debris-strewn runoff at the bottom of the cavity. "I firmly believe, as does every person here, that this deep, empty hole has come to stand not only for the New York City of today, but also for the transformation of the entire United States since Sept. 11, 2001."
Posted by Jai Narayan on September 13, 2006, at 9:50:44
In reply to A *different* take on this 9/11 stuff..., posted by Jay on September 11, 2006, at 22:24:54
I woke up early that day and decided to meditate, very unusual. then I was working out and my partner yelled to me from the tv room. He said, you might want to see this...
that was the beginning of a full day of screaming and crying.
I knew from the first plane just what it was. Why I knew...I must have been psychic.
I could feel the passengers collapsing into the building, the innocents losing their lives so fast that even they were shocked. I could feel the weight of a body falling through space, the dizzy spinning feeling of loss of control and just letting go.
the daring swan dive into the blue sky...the "I have nothing more to lose" no use in waiting for the fire to burn and the smoke to choke me.
yes that day stands out in my memory.
Posted by Tabitha on September 13, 2006, at 9:50:44
In reply to A *different* take on this 9/11 stuff..., posted by Jay on September 11, 2006, at 22:24:54
Posted by Gee on September 13, 2006, at 9:50:45
In reply to Re: A *different* take on this 9/11 stuff..., posted by Jai Narayan on September 11, 2006, at 22:32:07
I was only 15 at the time, but it changed the way we look at everything and everyone. At first I didn't truely understand what was going on (I never heard of the trade centers before!), but then one of my friends came to school crying, and that was just the beginning of a long day of sorrow and questioning. No one understood. The school was unusually quiet that day.
Posted by SLS on September 13, 2006, at 9:50:45
In reply to Re: Today is not the day for this (nm) » Jay, posted by Tabitha on September 11, 2006, at 23:48:29
Yes. It doesn't feel right to evoke such cynicism on the anniversary of such loss. The Hole is a fitting metaphor for the vacuum this event has left in the lives of many, many people.
- Scott
Posted by laima on September 13, 2006, at 9:50:45
In reply to Re: Today is not the day for this, posted by SLS on September 12, 2006, at 12:21:15
I don't think most of those people at the WTC (or on the planes) had politics on their mind- and they came from so many countries and all walks of life-from stock brokers and students to cleaning ladies and garbage collectors-- why turn them into political pawns or justifications for any argument or agenda? They were human souls...and if you can get over the baggage now associated with the word- terrorized.> Yes. It doesn't feel right to evoke such cynicism on the anniversary of such loss. The Hole is a fitting metaphor for the vacuum this event has left in the lives of many, many people.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by llrrrpp on September 13, 2006, at 9:50:45
In reply to Re: Today is not the day for this, posted by laima on September 12, 2006, at 22:15:33
I think Jay is entitled to feel however he wants to feel on this day, just as he may feel however he wants to feel on any other day during the year.
Especially since it is his thread, and he seems to have warned us all adequately. I think that this thread is a way of exposing an issue that is troubling. Just because it's troubling doesn't mean that Jay is an inconsiderate post-er for mentioning it. And there is not better day to be troubled by it than on such a day.
We all mark important days in our head and have our own unique perspectives.
Sometimes it's really hard to express what we're *really* feeling, because there is so much expectation and pressure to be feeling something more benign/pro-social/etc.
There is an interesting movie from Denmark called "Festen" or "The Celebration".
Basically an entire family gets together under the auspices of celebrating the life and achievements of one of the senior heads of the family. All is well, with toasts and cheer until a voice speaks up that questions whether anyone really *knows* this senior family member.
Cracks appear in the family harmony. Big gaping cracks. But the truth was always known. There were always big gapig cracks. It's just that people were in denial, covering them up. Pretending they didn't exist. Maybe the family healed when the cracks were revealed and they all realized that their "secret bad thoughts" were shared. That they weren't alone.
Jay, you are pointing out a crack. Even as we mourn the lives lost, the families traumatized, and the symbolic meaning of 9/11, we may realize that we are no further, no better, no more safe. That there are still abundant "cracks" in our system of "safety and security".
For you to point out that we may not be safer, or we may not *feel* safer, well, this is perfectly appropriate, in my opinion. It's a scary date. I'm glad you were brave enough to post your alternate take on the 9/11 anniversary.
Thanks,
-llsedit qui timuit ne non succederet - he who feared he would not succeed, stood still.
Posted by llrrrpp on September 13, 2006, at 9:50:45
In reply to Why not feel what you feel?, posted by llrrrpp on September 13, 2006, at 7:47:36
I couldn't get the double quotes to work. kept on trying to submit them. lemme try again?
Posted by SLS on September 13, 2006, at 9:50:46
In reply to Why not feel what you feel?, posted by llrrrpp on September 13, 2006, at 7:47:36
You are right.
- Scott
Posted by alexandra_k on September 13, 2006, at 9:50:46
In reply to Why not feel what you feel?, posted by llrrrpp on September 13, 2006, at 7:47:36
nicely said
thanks for that.
Posted by AuntieMel on September 13, 2006, at 12:30:10
In reply to Re: Why not feel what you feel? » llrrrpp, posted by alexandra_k on September 13, 2006, at 8:46:11
1979. I was in NYC with my new boyfriend. We couldn't get into the restaraunt in the towers because we were in jeans, so we went to the observation deck instead.
On the way up the (crowded) elevator he said:
"I had a really good time last night. What did you say your name was again?"
We're still together.....
Posted by AuntieMel on September 13, 2006, at 14:23:25
In reply to Re: My memory of the towers » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on September 13, 2006, at 12:30:10
Posted by finelinebob on September 13, 2006, at 21:02:48
In reply to A *different* take on this 9/11 stuff..., posted by Jay on September 11, 2006, at 22:24:54
The Onion unfortunately left out the insurance companies, who sure are happy to take our money, make themselves richer for it, but then refuse to honor the bargain should they be called to task.
Yeah, it's a cynical article, but particularly with the memorial quite apropos. If the people responsible could have been decisive and **acted**, then what I always thought was a fitting memorial might have been finished within cost limits ... lol, one of the wonderful things they like to debate here in NYC -- how much cost is too much for a memorial?
Posted by SLS on September 14, 2006, at 11:27:53
In reply to Re: A *different* take on this 9/11 stuff..., posted by finelinebob on September 13, 2006, at 21:02:48
> If the people responsible could have been decisive and **acted**
I think Larry Silverstein has probably been decisive enough, but he has been frustrated and thwarted by insurance companies, regulatory commissions, various committes, and a bunch of other stuff.
- Scott
Posted by finelinebob on September 14, 2006, at 23:30:30
In reply to Re: A *different* take on this 9/11 stuff..., posted by SLS on September 14, 2006, at 11:27:53
> > If the people responsible could have been decisive and **acted**
>
> I think Larry Silverstein has probably been decisive enough, but he has been frustrated and thwarted by insurance companies, regulatory commissions, various committes, and a bunch of other stuff.A number of the "players" in this game like to point fingers his way, but I always admired him because from day 1 he said he intended on rebuilding the Towers. About a month after 9/11, all the pols and pundits felt it safe enough to open their mouths and talk about how rebuilding would be a nice gesture but there's the money and the problems about buildings more than about 55 stories high and yada yada yada. Then the Post and the Daily News had different polls published on the same day that said New Yorkers overwhelmingly (better than 90%) wanted to rebuild the Towers or something close to them.
And the pols and pundits all changed their tunes.
It just felt so true to what it means to be a New Yorker -- rebuild the Towers just one story taller, then say "come try that again, I got a one-way ticket to 'Paradise' with your name on it".
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 16, 2006, at 11:16:31
In reply to A *different* take on this 9/11 stuff..., posted by Jay on September 11, 2006, at 22:24:54
> Bush wanted to spend more time on the Ranch, I guess.
>
> -Amnesty International has put America on par with countries like Iran because of the use of such things as torture, secret courts..prisoner for life with no trial..etc.Please respect the views of others (such as supporters of Bush and Americans) and be sensitive to their feelings.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on September 16, 2006, at 17:09:47
In reply to Re: please be civil » Jay, posted by Dr. Bob on September 16, 2006, at 11:16:31
er...
> > Bush wanted to spend more time on the Ranch, I guess.
i know i'd sure as hell want to spend more time at the ranch if i had a ranch. i don't really see how that is problematic...
> > -Amnesty International has put America on par with countries like Iran...
um... isn't saying this is unsupportive of america kind of being... unsupportive of iran (and countries like it)? i just mean... what is wrong with being 'on a par with', what are the alternatives? 'better than'?
i don't see how this is disrespectful to bush or america
Posted by Declan on September 16, 2006, at 23:12:49
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by alexandra_k on September 16, 2006, at 17:09:47
Posted by alexandra_k on September 16, 2006, at 23:30:34
In reply to Unfortunately we have no Iranians here (nm) » alexandra_k, posted by Declan on September 16, 2006, at 23:12:49
Posted by Declan on September 18, 2006, at 13:55:08
In reply to Re: i wonder why... (nm) » Declan, posted by alexandra_k on September 16, 2006, at 23:30:34
Posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2006, at 6:18:39
In reply to You might expect the odd muslim from the west? (nm), posted by Declan on September 18, 2006, at 13:55:08
I was tempted to convert. I like the full black thing with the face covering.
I like it very much :-)
But I don't suppose you convert just to wear the cool clothes :-(
Posted by Declan on September 20, 2006, at 16:17:19
In reply to Re: You might expect the odd muslim from the west?, posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2006, at 6:18:39
Well, women have got the burqa but men could do it too. Wear some kinda hood with maybe a sign on the back saying something like 'We're proud Australians and ashamed to show our faces'
Posted by Jost on September 21, 2006, at 11:11:11
In reply to Re: You might expect the odd muslim from the west?, posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2006, at 6:18:39
Do you really find the burqa appealing? In what way?
I've heard that it's very hard to see where you're going with a full burqa on. Maybe that was propaganda of some kind, but maybe not.
Have you read the book by the Moslem woman in the Netherlands who was working with the Dutch Filmmaker Van Gogh, who was killed because of the film he made about Islam?
Someone recommended it. It gives an alternative view from inside Islam. I'd actually like to see it. I checked just now on Amazon and can't find it-- I don't know her name. I'll see if I can get that.
Jost
Posted by Declan on September 21, 2006, at 19:08:21
In reply to Re: You might expect the odd muslim from the west? » alexandra_k, posted by Jost on September 21, 2006, at 11:11:11
Yeah, I dunno much about Islam, but I did read the Little Green Book by the Ayotollah. There are 4 things that are impure, I remember, the last of which is the sweat of the excrement eating camel.
Posted by Jost on September 21, 2006, at 21:44:37
In reply to Re: You might expect the odd muslim from the west? » Jost, posted by Declan on September 21, 2006, at 19:08:21
That's quite a revelation, Declan. I'll keep it in mind.
Wonder why that stuck with you? Gee, wish you remembered the first three.
Jost
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