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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 46 to 70 of 70. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on September 3, 2005, at 9:31:38
In reply to Re: will anyone help?, posted by Nickengland on September 3, 2005, at 7:30:51
Hey Nick. Thanks for some facts. I knew it was bad but I didn't appreciate it was quite that bad...
> They also have corrupt leaders in some of those countries, which in some respects can be considered as wicked a Saddam Hussien.
Yeah. Its one thing sending aid...
Its another thing to make sure the people who need that aid recieve it...
> You have to ask the question, would Bush have more of an interest in those poor African countries if there was oil there? vs his attention if there wasn't any in the middle east.Yeah. Oil is one side to it. Spread of democracy is another...
> But again, this could be considered normal-day-to-day living in one of those African countries.Yeah. Hard to know what is worse... To have that be 'normal' with little prospects for genuine improvement. Or to once have had and then to have it all taken away... I guess it sucks either way.
> Apparently if the Iraq war lasts five more years it will cost America nearly 1.4 Trillion dollars. (I just googled that out of curosity)
>America is fortunate that it can afford to repair such a disaster, I think it can, if it can spend all that money in Iraq.Well... Not sure that follows. Maybe it doesn't have that money BECAUSE it spent all that money in Iraq... 1.4 trillion dollars... How many african communities could be assisted to become self-sufficient on that amount do you think? Or maybe it could have been spent on welfare. Maybe if more people had cars more people would have been able to evacuate. Maybe... Maybe... Its a hard one. But while I can understand people haggling over where to spend aid money I really don't understand people choosing war over aid. What a tragic waste of lives.
If there wasn't any war... There wouldn't have to be any starving people.
A (controversial) alternative is that if we stopped farming animals for food... There wouldn't have to be any starving people (it is more economical and nutritionally efficient to grow soy or vegetables to eat than to grow soy or vegetables to feed the animals to kill the animals to eat...)
> In the mean time of course people will donate from around the world to the people affected by this hurricane.Yes. And not to the africans. But yeah. There is only so much to go around. and given war and all we must choose...
Posted by gromit on September 6, 2005, at 21:48:28
In reply to Re: will anyone help?, posted by alexandra_k on September 2, 2005, at 16:16:26
> imo it should be accepted as a humanitarian gesture.
>
> and NOT seen as something that was owed america or that america was entitled to.Just as with other disasters nobody is "entitled". Were the tsunami victims "entitled" to receive aid? Why are American citizens less worthy of foreign aid?
Rick
Posted by alexandra_k on September 6, 2005, at 22:51:38
In reply to Re: will anyone help?, posted by gromit on September 6, 2005, at 21:48:28
> Why are American citizens less worthy of foreign aid?
because they are so much more worthy of american aid. because america is the richest country in the world and if anybody has a responsibility to american citizens suffering from natural disaster the american government does.
when a country is not in a position to be able to help its citizens... well... then that is a different matter.
Posted by crazy teresa on September 7, 2005, at 12:31:39
In reply to Re: will anyone help? » gromit, posted by alexandra_k on September 6, 2005, at 22:51:38
Posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 15:38:13
In reply to So IYO, $$$ or lack of = worthiness or not????? (nm) » alexandra_k, posted by crazy teresa on September 7, 2005, at 12:31:39
lets say i have one million dollars...
i squander that money on gambelling...
then something happens
i need an operation
one that costs one million dollarsthere is me
and there is another person
that other person never came close to seeing one million dollarsthere is one million dollars worth of aid
only one person can be savedis one more deserving than another?
why / why not?
Posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 15:44:32
In reply to So IYO, $$$ or lack of = worthiness or not????? (nm) » alexandra_k, posted by crazy teresa on September 7, 2005, at 12:31:39
actually...
forget it.
i don't think i want to talk about politics with you.
i still feel fairly insulted by what you said before...besides which. we were talking about worthiness of FOREIGN aid. that bit was crucial.
of course americans have an obligation to help american citizens in need.
more so... the government has a moral obligation to look after the welfare of its citizens.
but no, the priority was clearly troops in iraq.
yeah, lets spend our money on war
and as for the poor needing aid...
well who needs eugenics when we have natural disaster???
Posted by gromit on September 7, 2005, at 19:33:33
In reply to Re: will anyone help? » gromit, posted by alexandra_k on September 6, 2005, at 22:51:38
> because they are so much more worthy of american aid. because america is the richest country in the world and if anybody has a responsibility to american citizens suffering from natural disaster the american government does.
I guess we are the "richest" country in the world, we also spend far more on foreign aid than anybody else. The next 3 countries combined still spend less on aid than us. So now you're going to mention a small percentage of gross income right? The next place country, I believe Japan, gives just a few hundreds of a percent more than us. Where are all the people bashing Japan? They aren't being bashed because they don't deserve to be bashed either. BTW, according to the figures I've seen New Zealand is also just a few hundreds of a percent ahead of the US. This is from memory but I think it's fairly accurate, if you doubt it I will try to find the sites again.
I don't expect people to come rushing to our aid, I'm just surprised at the strong negative attitude towards Americans. I guarantee if New Zealand had a disaster like this the US along with other countries would be there for them.
To quote another post, "we are looking at an area the size of Great Britain that has been devastated". If you want to complain about this administration's foreign policy I'll be right there beside you (and domestic policy is no better) but your posts along with some others on this subject almost make me feel guilty to be an American.
Rick
Posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 19:54:28
In reply to Re: will anyone help? » alexandra_k, posted by gromit on September 7, 2005, at 19:33:33
> I guess we are the "richest" country in the world, we also spend far more on foreign aid than anybody else. The next 3 countries combined still spend less on aid than us. So now you're going to mention a small percentage of gross income right? The next place country, I believe Japan, gives just a few hundreds of a percent more than us. Where are all the people bashing Japan? They aren't being bashed because they don't deserve to be bashed either. BTW, according to the figures I've seen New Zealand is also just a few hundreds of a percent ahead of the US. This is from memory but I think it's fairly accurate, if you doubt it I will try to find the sites again.
don't worry about the stats, they just confuse me ;-)
i don't know that a country (any country) has a moral obligation to provide foreign aid... have been chatting to my officemate about this (i'm no ethicist - but he is).
i do think, however, that a country (any country) has a moral obligation to provide aid for its own citizens.i take back what i said about having more of an obliation to help africans than americans. there are rich people in africa too. corrupt government is the problem...
> I don't expect people to come rushing to our aid,but countries are. as a humanitarian gesture. and i think that is terrific. really. all i'm saying is that they are not morally OBLIGED to come to americas aid, which is to say they should not be morally condemned for doing the wrong thing should they not have come to america's aid.
i think nz owes the usa a fair bit of money...
would be nice if the dollar value of our gift of aid was subtracted from that amount...
but there it is...>I'm just surprised at the strong negative attitude towards Americans. I guarantee if New Zealand had a disaster like this the US along with other countries would be there for them.
i can only speak for myself...
i do not have a strong negative atitude towards americans (some of my best babble friends are american ;-) ). i do, however, have a strong negative attitude towards the current us government. and how they go about running the country.
yes. countries DO come to the aid of other countries. and that is nice.
all i was saying is that no country is MORALLY ENTITLED to foreign aid.
>If you want to complain about this administration's foreign policy I'll be right there beside you (and domestic policy is no better) but your posts along with some others on this subject almost make me feel guilty to be an American.
I'm sorry you feel guilty to be an american. i never intended for you to feel that way in response. i was just trying to do some grumbling over the current govt.though its not called 'government' is it???
:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 20:05:05
In reply to Re: will anyone help? » gromit, posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 19:54:28
ah and this does get confusing...
moral entitlement and obligation etc etc...
strictly at the level of government / the people running the country...
i guess i just take issue with their choosing to spend an awful lot of money on invading another country...
and the result being that they have to accept aid from foreign countries to fulfill their moral obligations to their own citizens.
but i think they see that...
which is why they were initially reluctant to accept foreign aid.
because it does make them look bad.
and a point that someone else said earlier over on social...terrorists attack in america (9/11)
so what does the american govt. decide to do in response???
send most of the troops overseas to go invade another country...
leaving america wide open to attacknot so smart...
not so smart.war is such a horrible waste of money.
nick found some source that if the war continues for 4 years it will have cost america
(and thats your tax money)
1.4 trillion dollars.
at one point when there was a lot of bombing going on...
office mate tells me it cost america
(and thats your tax money)
1 million dollars per day.and there are people in america living in tenements
living on the streets
walking through metal detectors on their way into schoolimagine what 1.4 trillion dollars...
1 million dollars per day could do for the quality of life of american citizens.but of course i'm preaching to the converted ;-)
Posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 20:09:21
In reply to Re: will anyone help?, posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 20:05:05
and i guess trouble comes...
trouble comes too...
when you know people who have gone over to fight in the war
when you know people who have died in that war
to consider the war a massive mistake
a blunder
seems disrespectful to those who gave their lives to the causewhat does somebody have to say to someone to convince them to give up their life for a cause?
it is sad
it is such a horrible horrible waste of lives
on both sides
more americans have died in iraq than died in vietnam:-(
Posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 20:10:35
In reply to Re: will anyone help?, posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 20:09:21
it reminds me of leamings...
leamings commit mass suicide by racing off the edge of a cliff
why?
why on earth?nobody could figure it out...
turns out leaming suicide was a hoax
war, on the other hand, is a fact
Posted by Phil on September 7, 2005, at 20:41:38
In reply to Re: will anyone help?, posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 20:09:21
more americans have died in iraq than died in vietnam
_______________You might want to check your facts on that statement.
Posted by lynn970 on September 7, 2005, at 20:47:22
In reply to Re: will anyone help? » alexandra_k, posted by Phil on September 7, 2005, at 20:41:38
Phil, is it you who was telling me that New Orleans' officials was not letting in the Red Cross?
I heard them talking about that on the news. I thought, "Yep, Phil told me that."
The person who was speaking was also voicing how he distrusted the Homeland Security.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 21:33:48
In reply to Re: will anyone help? » alexandra_k, posted by Phil on September 7, 2005, at 20:41:38
> more americans have died in iraq than died in vietnam
> _______________
>
> You might want to check your facts on that statement.My mistake...
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1114-01.htm
Posted by crazy teresa on September 8, 2005, at 6:47:25
In reply to Re: So IYO, $$$ or lack of = worthiness or not????? » crazy teresa, posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 15:44:32
> actually...
> forget it.
> i don't think i want to talk about politics with you.Because we don't agree?
> i still feel fairly insulted by what you said before...
>I'm sorry you feel that way. It looks as if you're freely expressing your own opinions, am I not entitled to have another?
> besides which. we were talking about worthiness of FOREIGN aid. that bit was crucial.
>No one was disputing that. NO ONE said ANYBODY was obligated to doing ANYTHING for the US.
> of course americans have an obligation to help american citizens in need.
>
> more so... the government has a moral obligation to look after the welfare of its citizens.
>
> but no, the priority was clearly troops in iraq.
>According to you.
> yeah, lets spend our money on war
> and as for the poor needing aid...
> well who needs eugenics when we have natural disaster???Saddam pled guilty to how many murders? I suppose we should ignore this fact. Along with the soldiers who are writing home telling of how people are begging them not to leave.
Posted by crazy teresa on September 8, 2005, at 6:51:58
In reply to Re: So IYO, $$$ or lack of = worthiness or not????? » crazy teresa, posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 15:38:13
Posted by alexandra_k on September 8, 2005, at 18:53:57
In reply to Re: So IYO, $$$ or lack of = worthiness or not?????, posted by crazy teresa on September 8, 2005, at 6:47:25
> > actually...
> > forget it.
> > i don't think i want to talk about politics with you.
> Because we don't agree?No. Because of uncivil comments.
> > i still feel fairly insulted by what you said before...> I'm sorry you feel that way. It looks as if you're freely expressing your own opinions, am I not entitled to have another?
You are entitled to have another.
You are not entitled to be uncivil.
Other countries approach america with a hand out to be filled and are ungrateful for the help america has offered them...I suppose you CAN believe what you like...
But what are the REASONS you have for that belief?
And what other countries are you thinking of?
Can you not see how someone from another country would likely be offended by that statement?
How would you feel if i said that america was always approaching nz with a hand out to be filled and that america was ungrateful? I think you'd have reason to be upset or at the very least require me to provide some justification for that belief.Its not disagreement i'm having trouble with its incivility.
> > besides which. we were talking about worthiness of FOREIGN aid. that bit was crucial.> No one was disputing that. NO ONE said ANYBODY was obligated to doing ANYTHING for the US.
Right. Then it seems we don't disagree on that after all.
> > of course americans have an obligation to help american citizens in need.
> > more so... the government has a moral obligation to look after the welfare of its citizens.
> > but no, the priority was clearly troops in iraq.> According to you.
Sorry, what is it that you are disputing???
1) That the american government has a moral obligation to look after the welfare of its citizens
2) That the american government chose to have troops in iraq rather than troops in new orleans
3) That american citizens have a moral obligation to help american citizens in need.
> Saddam pled guilty to how many murders? I suppose we should ignore this fact.I don't think we should ignore that.
But... I don't really see what thats got to do with america going into iraq. how many guilty murderers are there in the world? is america going to try and do something about all of them? do you really believe that is the main motivation for troops in iraq? how does that justify troops in iraq as opposed to troops somewhere else?>Along with the soldiers who are writing home telling of how people are begging them not to leave.
yeah. i guess the soldiers aren't going to be writing home telling of how other people are begging them to leave.
begging them to stop killing them
their kids
begging them to leave them alone and go home.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 8, 2005, at 18:56:10
In reply to You're comparing apples to oranges. (nm) » alexandra_k, posted by crazy teresa on September 8, 2005, at 6:51:58
yeah, it is a terrible analogy.
:-)any thoughts on why it is a terrible analogy?
Posted by crazy teresa on September 9, 2005, at 0:59:43
In reply to Re: You're comparing apples to oranges. » crazy teresa, posted by alexandra_k on September 8, 2005, at 18:56:10
Are you ok? I am really worried about you. After rereading this entire thread, it seems that you are very agitated. You post, say never mind, post several more times, then some of your thoughts seem to contradict themselves which concerns me even more. We will never solve the world's problems and I hate to think all of this is causing you undue stress.
As far as my being uncivil, I was under the impression that once Dr. Bob told us BOTH to be civil, that part of the conversation had to be ended or we were to be blocked.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 9, 2005, at 3:06:19
In reply to alexandra_k, posted by crazy teresa on September 9, 2005, at 0:59:43
> Are you ok? I am really worried about you.
Doing much better now, thanks :-)
Posted by Phil on September 9, 2005, at 6:26:51
In reply to Re: will anyone help?, posted by lynn970 on September 7, 2005, at 20:47:22
Could have been me. Unfortunately I have the memory of a gnat.
Posted by crazy teresa on September 9, 2005, at 9:03:18
In reply to Re: crazy teresa, posted by alexandra_k on September 9, 2005, at 3:06:19
Excellent! Let's talk about something else. :~}
Posted by gromit on September 9, 2005, at 15:48:18
In reply to Re: will anyone help? » gromit, posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 19:54:28
> I'm sorry you feel guilty to be an american. i never intended for you to feel that way in response. i was just trying to do some grumbling over the current govt.
Nah, just me being overly defensive.
Rick
Posted by alexandra_k on September 9, 2005, at 17:26:38
In reply to Re: crazy teresa » alexandra_k, posted by crazy teresa on September 9, 2005, at 9:03:18
:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on September 9, 2005, at 17:27:35
In reply to Re: will anyone help?, posted by gromit on September 9, 2005, at 15:48:18
> Nah, just me being overly defensive.
I think I probably would have felt pretty defensive if my posts were aimed at me too...
Sorry about that.
:-)
This is the end of the thread.
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