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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by sassyfrancesca on July 10, 2008, at 10:25:43
In reply to Lou's request for clarification-smknmhirors? » sassyfrancesca, posted by Lou PIlder on July 8, 2008, at 19:28:13
Lou; Your questions are a little confusing; if you want to know what spiritual abuse is you can go into: www.spiritualabuse.com; it is a support website for those abused spiritually; it describes what spiritual abuse is.
There are also books on spiritual abuse
In a nutshell, spiritual abuse is when a spiritual leader uses his own agenda to try and force you to do things against your will; blames and shames you.
Anytime a pastor/spiritual leader causes people to lose hope and want to commit suicide, that is abuse. He doesn't/did not have the skills to counsel women who were being abused. I am the moderator of an abused survivors' group, and have been counseling the abused for many years.
I was naive (as the other women were) in going to him for help; he was without a clue. He told one woman (who, according to the Bible) had grounds for divorce (her husband was committing adultery); this "pastor" told her she had to "stay" and still have sex with him, because it was her "duty."
Sad, sick counsel, indeed.
www.churchabusepoetrytherapy.comI was voted out of membership, with my name up on a big screen, followed by the words: "Conduct Unbecoming a Child of God." For the ex they used the words, "church discipline." Ironic...the ex is the abuser. Christians "shooting their wounded."
It happened 4 years ago; I am triggered by religious words; cannot go into any church now. That is what spiritual abuse does.
Posted by Lou PIlder on July 10, 2008, at 18:40:26
In reply to Re: Lou's request for clarification-smknmhirors?, posted by sassyfrancesca on July 10, 2008, at 10:25:43
> Lou; Your questions are a little confusing; if you want to know what spiritual abuse is you can go into: www.spiritualabuse.com; it is a support website for those abused spiritually; it describes what spiritual abuse is.
>
> There are also books on spiritual abuse
>
> In a nutshell, spiritual abuse is when a spiritual leader uses his own agenda to try and force you to do things against your will; blames and shames you.
>
> Anytime a pastor/spiritual leader causes people to lose hope and want to commit suicide, that is abuse. He doesn't/did not have the skills to counsel women who were being abused. I am the moderator of an abused survivors' group, and have been counseling the abused for many years.
>
> I was naive (as the other women were) in going to him for help; he was without a clue. He told one woman (who, according to the Bible) had grounds for divorce (her husband was committing adultery); this "pastor" told her she had to "stay" and still have sex with him, because it was her "duty."
>
> Sad, sick counsel, indeed.
>
>
> www.churchabusepoetrytherapy.com
>
> I was voted out of membership, with my name up on a big screen, followed by the words: "Conduct Unbecoming a Child of God." For the ex they used the words, "church discipline." Ironic...the ex is the abuser. Christians "shooting their wounded."
>
> It happened 4 years ago; I am triggered by religious words; cannot go into any church now. That is what spiritual abuse does.sassayfrancesca,
You wrote,[...spiritual abuse is when a spiritual leader uses his (her?) own agenda to try to force you to do things against your will; blames and shames you...], and [...anytime a pastor/spiritual leader causes people to loose hope and want to commit suicide, that is abuse...]
Then there is a description of your own experiance with a pastor/spiritual leader and you wrote;
[...He deosn't/did not have the skills to counsel women who were being abused...he was without a clue...he told a women that she had to stay with her husband even though he was committing adultery becuae it was her duty..Sad XXX councel...voted out of membership..conduct...the ex is...what spiritual abuse does...].
I have a want for infomation in order for me to have a clearer understanding of the aspects of your post here. If I knew the following, then I could have a better ubderstanding of what you are defining as spiritual abuse and respond accordingly.
A. I see that you were divorced ,and was there a move-back-in of your previous husband after that that was brought into play by the church group in relation to their posting what you wrote as on the screen? If that is the case here, I have heard of that situation and there are groups that use a scripture that the Jews use in their scriptures that speaks to that situation. Did they cite any scripture that that group uses to justify their actions toward you in their voting your membership out? Also, were you allowed to answer them in any hearing, if there was one that offered you that? Could you give more infomation as to what the abuse was? I am unsure as to that if this involves you having your ex husband cohabit with you as to if that is connected and how to what the abuse could be.
Also, there are various scriptures that the church that you refer to uses from their scriptures to justify an action of taking away one's memberhip from their group. Did they cite any of those? There is biblical mention of marriage being divorced for cause and also there is biblical mention as to if one has to invoke that cause or not and remain with an adulterous spouse. This is a spiritual concept to understand for it involves forgivnes on the Divine plane and goes beyound human achievment into the realm of Divine accomplishment of healing and forgivness. The book called Hosea could be a good book to read.
B. In,[...forcing one aginst their will...], I am unsure as to if there was something that the pastor forced you to do something against your will and I am not sure as to what you are wanting to mean if there was such and if so what it was. Could you clarify that for me here?
C.In,[...causes to loose hope...,I am unsure as to what the pastor did or said that was what could cause people to loose hope and hope in what? If you could clarify this for me, I would appreciate it and respond accordingly.
D.In,[...He doesn't have the skills...] what are the skills that are needed for one to counsel abused women in your opinion?
Lou
Posted by sassyfrancesca on July 11, 2008, at 8:33:36
In reply to Lou's reply to sassyfrancesca- » sassyfrancesca, posted by Lou PIlder on July 10, 2008, at 18:40:26
Lou: I don't wish to go into the whole ugly story again (triggers me), but in answer to your last question: What skills do/did the pastor need to counsel abused women?
All the skills any trained psychotherapist has.
He needed a working knowledge of what abuse IS and how it affects the abused. He was clueless, and did such damage to so many women. I was naive to think he could help me. I helped myself, and am the moderator of an abused survivors' group.
I may be chosen to present my paper on verbal abuse to the American Counseling Association next year, because of my experience and knowledge of the subject.
The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans is the 2nd most important book in the Universe in my opinion. One Ph.D. stated "It is the cornerstone of civilization."
I don't want or desire to answer any more questions about what happened; I don't need the triggers. you can read what happened to me: www.churchabusepoetrytherapy.com
My ex didn't commit adultery; he abused me; churches behave as if divorce is the ultimate sin; churches do such damage, because or their ignorance.
Posted by Lou PIlder on July 11, 2008, at 9:20:47
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to sassyfrancesca-, posted by sassyfrancesca on July 11, 2008, at 8:33:36
> Lou: I don't wish to go into the whole ugly story again (triggers me), but in answer to your last question: What skills do/did the pastor need to counsel abused women?
>
> All the skills any trained psychotherapist has.
>
> He needed a working knowledge of what abuse IS and how it affects the abused. He was clueless, and did such damage to so many women. I was naive to think he could help me. I helped myself, and am the moderator of an abused survivors' group.
>
> I may be chosen to present my paper on verbal abuse to the American Counseling Association next year, because of my experience and knowledge of the subject.
>
> The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans is the 2nd most important book in the Universe in my opinion. One Ph.D. stated "It is the cornerstone of civilization."
>
> I don't want or desire to answer any more questions about what happened; I don't need the triggers. you can read what happened to me: www.churchabusepoetrytherapy.com
>
> My ex didn't commit adultery; he abused me; churches behave as if divorce is the ultimate sin; churches do such damage, because or their ignorance.sassyfrancesca,
You wrote,[...all the skills any trained psychotherapist has...he did such XXX to so many women...churches do XXX because of their XXX...].
I am unsure as to what all of what you are wanting to mean here by the nature of the grammmatical structure of your posts here. I will try to read your offered links and such to try to get a better understanding and respond accordsingly after I have the time to read those.
There could be two sides in what I am reading in your posts and I am going to respond to your posts here. Please be advised that there will be infomation that could be diffeent from what you have posted and that perhaps not reading my posts in this thread could be an option.
Lou
Posted by Lou PIlder on July 11, 2008, at 11:02:12
In reply to Lou's reply to sassyfrancesca- » sassyfrancesca, posted by Lou PIlder on July 11, 2008, at 9:20:47
> > Lou: I don't wish to go into the whole ugly story again (triggers me), but in answer to your last question: What skills do/did the pastor need to counsel abused women?
> >
> > All the skills any trained psychotherapist has.
> >
> > He needed a working knowledge of what abuse IS and how it affects the abused. He was clueless, and did such damage to so many women. I was naive to think he could help me. I helped myself, and am the moderator of an abused survivors' group.
> >
> > I may be chosen to present my paper on verbal abuse to the American Counseling Association next year, because of my experience and knowledge of the subject.
> >
> > The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans is the 2nd most important book in the Universe in my opinion. One Ph.D. stated "It is the cornerstone of civilization."
> >
> > I don't want or desire to answer any more questions about what happened; I don't need the triggers. you can read what happened to me: www.churchabusepoetrytherapy.com
> >
> > My ex didn't commit adultery; he abused me; churches behave as if divorce is the ultimate sin; churches do such damage, because or their ignorance.
>
> sassyfrancesca,
> You wrote,[...all the skills any trained psychotherapist has...he did such XXX to so many women...churches do XXX because of their XXX...].
> I am unsure as to what all of what you are wanting to mean here by the nature of the grammmatical structure of your posts here. I will try to read your offered links and such to try to get a better understanding and respond accordsingly after I have the time to read those.
> There could be two sides in what I am reading in your posts and I am going to respond to your posts here. Please be advised that there will be infomation that could be diffeent from what you have posted and that perhaps not reading my posts in this thread could be an option.
> Lou
>Friends,
It is written here,[...churches behave as if divorce is the...churches do XXX because of their XXX...]. It is also written here that a pastor needs to councel abused women something like,[...all the skills of a trained psychotherapist...].
The issue of divorce could be IMO important to members of a mental health community. It has been revealed to me what marriage is and what my God has revealed to me about divorce. It has also been revealed to me that there are two minds, one the carnal mind and the other the spiritual mind. There is also a third mind that I have not written here about yet that may come into this thread.
Now I am unsure as to what therapists think as to if there is a spiritual mind or not to them. I do know, however, that the Baptist's doctrine includes that they have in their doctrine the carnal and the spiritual minds. So it is likely IMO that a Baptist pastor would councel in regards to principles of their faith in relation to the two, or three minds.
Then in Judaism, Rabbis councel in divorce and remairriage also. So it is of importamce to me as a Jew here to address aspects of the thread here in relation to the statements about {spititual advisers} which could be Chriatians or non Christians.
Friends, what I am about to post here could IMO change your life and open up a new undertanding about why you were born.
Lou
Posted by SLS on July 12, 2008, at 4:46:03
In reply to Lou's reply to aspects-, posted by Lou PIlder on July 11, 2008, at 11:02:12
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on July 12, 2008, at 22:23:38
In reply to Re: Lou's request for clarification-, posted by sassyfrancesca on July 8, 2008, at 15:29:36
>all pastors should have to be licensed because they do unbelievable harm; they are biased and unable or unwilling to look at the dynamics....etc.
>churches do such damage, because or their ignorance.
While I know this is a personally difficult and triggering topic for you, please be sensitive to the feelings of others who have not had this type of negative experience with pastors/churches, by following the guidelines in the FAQ regarding not exaggerating or overgeneralizing. If I may make a suggestion, using words like "some" "most" "many" "a lot of" "the ones I've seen" "can" "could" "may" or other qualifiers, helps tremendously in this regard.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Psycho-Babble Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
-- 10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Sigismund on July 13, 2008, at 0:44:51
In reply to Lou's reply to aspects-, posted by Lou PIlder on July 11, 2008, at 11:02:12
>Friends, what I am about to post here could IMO change your life and open up a new undertanding about why you were born.
Lou, I'd be interested in *any* understanding as to why I was born.On the meaning of life front there is (what I assume to be) nihilism
"To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing."
Macbeth (Act V, Scene V)and (not nihilism as I understand it)
"Thou hast seen a farmer's dog bark at a beggar?
And the creature run from the cur? There thou mid'st behold
The great image of authority:
A dog's obeyed in office.
Through tatter'd clothes small vices do appear;
Robes and fur gowns hide all. Plate sin with gold,
And the strong lance of justice hurtless breaks;
Arm it in rags, a pygmy's straw doth pierce it.
None does offend, I say, none."
King Lear, Act IV, Scene VI.
Posted by Lou PIlder on July 20, 2008, at 16:46:17
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to aspects- » Lou PIlder, posted by Sigismund on July 13, 2008, at 0:44:51
> >Friends, what I am about to post here could IMO change your life and open up a new undertanding about why you were born.
>
>
> Lou, I'd be interested in *any* understanding as to why I was born.
>
> On the meaning of life front there is (what I assume to be) nihilism
> "To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
> Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
> To the last syllable of recorded time;
> And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
> The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
> Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
> That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
> And then is heard no more. It is a tale
> Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
> Signifying nothing."
> Macbeth (Act V, Scene V)
>
> and (not nihilism as I understand it)
> "Thou hast seen a farmer's dog bark at a beggar?
> And the creature run from the cur? There thou mid'st behold
> The great image of authority:
> A dog's obeyed in office.
> Through tatter'd clothes small vices do appear;
> Robes and fur gowns hide all. Plate sin with gold,
> And the strong lance of justice hurtless breaks;
> Arm it in rags, a pygmy's straw doth pierce it.
> None does offend, I say, none."
> King Lear, Act IV, Scene VI.Sigismund,
You wrote,[...I'd be interested...why I was born...].
It has been revealed to me the following that in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth and that God made man in His image. And then man was placed in a garden and in the midst of the garden God planted the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowlege of Good and Evil.
Adam and his wife, Eve, were warned by God not to eat of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil or they would die. They ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil, but not of the tree of life that was in the midst of the garden which if they had eaten of that tree in the midst of the garden, they would have lived forever and God banished them from the garden.
The tree of life was in the midst of the garden. It has been revealed to me that he that overcomes shall be given to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
And there is a City of God where god is in the midst of, and a river runs through it.
It has been revealed to me that if Adam and Eve had eaten of the tree of life that they would have been in God's image for they would have had God's nature along with the nature of the knowlege of good and evil. And it has been revealed to me that we were born to be in the image of God , a son of god, and that we can be completed to be Sons of God by eating of the tree of life that was in the midst of the garden.
And in a revelation I met a Rider on a White Horse and He said to me, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them."
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on July 20, 2008, at 19:13:40
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund-wybrn » Sigismund, posted by Lou PIlder on July 20, 2008, at 16:46:17
Thanks Lou
I have always wondered about the Tree of Life.
Posted by rayww on July 22, 2008, at 2:11:22
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund-wybrn » Sigismund, posted by Lou PIlder on July 20, 2008, at 16:46:17
> Adam and his wife, Eve, were warned by God not to eat of the
<<<<
If Adam had a wife, and her name was Eve, I assume they were married by God. Can people be married by God today, and if so, how? Mormons believe that is one purpose of temples, and through the priesthood these marriages can take place. People of my faith believe that Adam and Eve are still married (in heaven) and that all the families of earth are being organized so that everyone knows their priesthood authority back to Adam and Eve.>>>>tree of the knowlege of good and evil or they would die. They ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil, but not of the tree of life that was in the midst of the garden which if they had eaten of that tree in the midst of the garden, they would have lived forever
<<<
and none of us could have been born> and God banished them from the garden.
> The tree of life was in the midst of the garden. It has been revealed to me that he that overcomes shall be given to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
> And there is a City of God where god is in the midst of, and a river runs through it.
> It has been revealed to me that if Adam and Eve had eaten of the tree of life that they would have been in God's image for they would have had God's nature along with the nature of the knowlege of good and evil. And it has been revealed to me that we were born to be in the image of God , a son of god, and that we can be completed to be Sons of God by eating of the tree of life that was in the midst of the garden.<<<
your wisdom astounds me Lou
> And in a revelation I met a Rider on a White Horse and He said to me, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them."<<<<
I'm sure those are the words of Christ Lou.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/18/20#20
Posted by Lou PIlder on July 23, 2008, at 21:43:26
In reply to sorry to interrupt....but » Lou PIlder, posted by rayww on July 22, 2008, at 2:11:22
> > Adam and his wife, Eve, were warned by God not to eat of the
>
> <<<<
> If Adam had a wife, and her name was Eve, I assume they were married by God. Can people be married by God today, and if so, how? Mormons believe that is one purpose of temples, and through the priesthood these marriages can take place. People of my faith believe that Adam and Eve are still married (in heaven) and that all the families of earth are being organized so that everyone knows their priesthood authority back to Adam and Eve.
>
> >>>>tree of the knowlege of good and evil or they would die. They ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil, but not of the tree of life that was in the midst of the garden which if they had eaten of that tree in the midst of the garden, they would have lived forever
>
> <<<
> and none of us could have been born
>
> > and God banished them from the garden.
> > The tree of life was in the midst of the garden. It has been revealed to me that he that overcomes shall be given to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
> > And there is a City of God where god is in the midst of, and a river runs through it.
> > It has been revealed to me that if Adam and Eve had eaten of the tree of life that they would have been in God's image for they would have had God's nature along with the nature of the knowlege of good and evil. And it has been revealed to me that we were born to be in the image of God , a son of god, and that we can be completed to be Sons of God by eating of the tree of life that was in the midst of the garden.
>
> <<<
> your wisdom astounds me Lou
>
> > And in a revelation I met a Rider on a White Horse and He said to me, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them."
>
> <<<<
> I'm sure those are the words of Christ Lou.
> http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/18/20#20Friends,
It is written here,[...your wisdom astounds me Lou...].
What I have been writing here is from a revelation, and to go on in that revelation, I saw the garden. I saw that Adam and Eve were gathered together in God's name and that they had fellowship with Him. And I saw the Tree of Life in the midst of the garden. The tree was like none that I have ever seen. And I saw a river and gold about and other stones of beauty.
The Tree of Life was like an apparition, changing shape and it is impossible for me to describe it, like a luminescence, and I do not think that it was solid...then it changed to a pillar of fire, then back to what looked like a man, the limbs looking like arms that had hands that were in a position as to that they were going to clap.
Then the tree changed to a Rider on a White Horse in the midst of the two people. The Rider on the White Horse was there in the beginning with God in the midst of them that were gathered in His name.
The the Rider said to me," Whosoever eats of my flesh and drinks my blood, has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day, for I am the Life."
Lou
Posted by Dena on July 29, 2008, at 14:39:37
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund-wybrn » Sigismund, posted by Lou PIlder on July 20, 2008, at 16:46:17
Lou -
I'd like to hear more of what you were saying ... can you come back to this post, and continue with what you were sharing with us? Thanks!
Shalom, Dena
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >Friends, what I am about to post here could IMO change your life and open up a new undertanding about why you were born.
> >
> >
> > Lou, I'd be interested in *any* understanding as to why I was born.
> >
> > On the meaning of life front there is (what I assume to be) nihilism
> > "To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
> > Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
> > To the last syllable of recorded time;
> > And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
> > The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
> > Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
> > That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
> > And then is heard no more. It is a tale
> > Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
> > Signifying nothing."
> > Macbeth (Act V, Scene V)
> >
> > and (not nihilism as I understand it)
> > "Thou hast seen a farmer's dog bark at a beggar?
> > And the creature run from the cur? There thou mid'st behold
> > The great image of authority:
> > A dog's obeyed in office.
> > Through tatter'd clothes small vices do appear;
> > Robes and fur gowns hide all. Plate sin with gold,
> > And the strong lance of justice hurtless breaks;
> > Arm it in rags, a pygmy's straw doth pierce it.
> > None does offend, I say, none."
> > King Lear, Act IV, Scene VI.
>
> Sigismund,
> You wrote,[...I'd be interested...why I was born...].
> It has been revealed to me the following that in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth and that God made man in His image. And then man was placed in a garden and in the midst of the garden God planted the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowlege of Good and Evil.
> Adam and his wife, Eve, were warned by God not to eat of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil or they would die. They ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil, but not of the tree of life that was in the midst of the garden which if they had eaten of that tree in the midst of the garden, they would have lived forever and God banished them from the garden.
> The tree of life was in the midst of the garden. It has been revealed to me that he that overcomes shall be given to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
> And there is a City of God where god is in the midst of, and a river runs through it.
> It has been revealed to me that if Adam and Eve had eaten of the tree of life that they would have been in God's image for they would have had God's nature along with the nature of the knowlege of good and evil. And it has been revealed to me that we were born to be in the image of God , a son of god, and that we can be completed to be Sons of God by eating of the tree of life that was in the midst of the garden.
> And in a revelation I met a Rider on a White Horse and He said to me, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them."
> Lou
>
Posted by Dena on July 29, 2008, at 14:45:35
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to sassyfrancesca-, posted by sassyfrancesca on July 11, 2008, at 8:33:36
> Lou: I don't wish to go into the whole ugly story again (triggers me), but in answer to your last question: What skills do/did the pastor need to counsel abused women?
>
> All the skills any trained psychotherapist has.
>
> He needed a working knowledge of what abuse IS and how it affects the abused. He was clueless, and did such damage to so many women. I was naive to think he could help me. I helped myself, and am the moderator of an abused survivors' group.
>
> I may be chosen to present my paper on verbal abuse to the American Counseling Association next year, because of my experience and knowledge of the subject.
>
> The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans is the 2nd most important book in the Universe in my opinion. One Ph.D. stated "It is the cornerstone of civilization."
>
> I don't want or desire to answer any more questions about what happened; I don't need the triggers. you can read what happened to me: www.churchabusepoetrytherapy.com
>
> My ex didn't commit adultery; he abused me; churches behave as if divorce is the ultimate sin; churches do such damage, because or their ignorance.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~I've read your story elsewhere, on other forums.
I told you elsewhere that I could relate to your abuse, as we also went through spiritual abuse (different details, same dynamics), also just over four years ago.
You know, you can move past the place where it feels as if you're a victim... you can receive healing so that you're no longer triggered. You don't have to let this be your identify.
There are ways to have it be resolved, internally, so that it no longer consumes and harms you.
I would think, once a person has received their own healing and resolution, they would be much better able to help others do the same...
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers.""We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something.""Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."
"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted by Sigismund on July 29, 2008, at 18:23:34
In reply to Lou's response to rayww-thwaythtrunthlif, posted by Lou PIlder on July 23, 2008, at 21:43:26
Lou
It is lovely to hear you speak of this.
Thank you
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 2, 2008, at 20:38:53
In reply to Re: Lou's response to rayww-thwaythtrunthlif, posted by Sigismund on July 29, 2008, at 18:23:34
> Lou
>
> It is lovely to hear you speak of this.
>
> Thank youSigismund,
You wrote,[...to hear...].
It has been revealed to me that when one receives what I had posted that they could be in the paradise of God today, for as those that receive, a power will be given to them to become Sons of God.
In continuing the revelation that has been revealed to me the two ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil. And God had said to them that if they did eat from that tree that they would die. In the revelation I saw Adam and his wife be banished from the Garden and they entered a new realm upon leaving. They entered the Valley of the Shadow of Death. They had died. Their death was a spiritual death, for they had been banished from God's companionship as they had in the Garden before they ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil. They could not return to the garden and the tree of life.
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on August 2, 2008, at 20:57:13
In reply to Lou's reply yo Sigismund-vlyvtheshdwvdeth » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on August 2, 2008, at 20:38:53
> the two ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil. And God had said to them that if they did eat from that tree that they would die.
So does this mean that our awareness of duality is somehow tied up with our awareness of death?
No, that's not it. Let's start again.
'That which is only living can only die.'
All animals (including us) die.(May I say in parenthesis that if I was the creator I'd be pretty chary about letting ANY human into heaven. I would ask them "What about the animals? You lot turned the place into a gulag and a slaughterhouse.")
But that is by the by, and anyway the world was created in such a way that it is natural for animals to eat each other.Lou, are you saying that there is a mode of experience beyond duality, and that the name for that is eternity?
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 3, 2008, at 17:55:10
In reply to Lou's reply yo Sigismund-vlyvtheshdwvdeth » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on August 2, 2008, at 20:38:53
> > Lou
> >
> > It is lovely to hear you speak of this.
> >
> > Thank you
>
> Sigismund,
> You wrote,[...to hear...].
> It has been revealed to me that when one receives what I had posted that they could be in the paradise of God today, for as those that receive, a power will be given to them to become Sons of God.
> In continuing the revelation that has been revealed to me the two ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil. And God had said to them that if they did eat from that tree that they would die. In the revelation I saw Adam and his wife be banished from the Garden and they entered a new realm upon leaving. They entered the Valley of the Shadow of Death. They had died. Their death was a spiritual death, for they had been banished from God's companionship as they had in the Garden before they ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil. They could not return to the garden and the tree of life.
> LouFriends,
It was revealed to me with a going back in time to the beginnung where I saw Adam and Eve be banished from the garden. The Rider on the White Horse was in the midst of them. And they were in The Heart of the Earth and looked back at the entrance to the garden and a flaming sword was placed in front of thr entrance so that the way back to the garden was kept from them.
And I heard a language unknown to me that was used by them that I could understand. And I heard Adam ask the Rider what a way could be to get back to the garden. And I heard the Rider say to them, "Dust you are and dust you will return to." The two looked saddaned and then the Rider said to them, "There is a way, for your spirit can return to God, for when a seed falls to the ground and dies, it abides alone. But if it die, it can bring forth much fruit."
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 9, 2008, at 19:58:43
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund-brhuz, posted by Lou Pilder on September 3, 2008, at 17:55:10
> > > Lou
> > >
> > > It is lovely to hear you speak of this.
> > >
> > > Thank you
> >
> > Sigismund,
> > You wrote,[...to hear...].
> > It has been revealed to me that when one receives what I had posted that they could be in the paradise of God today, for as those that receive, a power will be given to them to become Sons of God.
> > In continuing the revelation that has been revealed to me the two ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil. And God had said to them that if they did eat from that tree that they would die. In the revelation I saw Adam and his wife be banished from the Garden and they entered a new realm upon leaving. They entered the Valley of the Shadow of Death. They had died. Their death was a spiritual death, for they had been banished from God's companionship as they had in the Garden before they ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil. They could not return to the garden and the tree of life.
> > Lou
>
> Friends,
> It was revealed to me with a going back in time to the beginnung where I saw Adam and Eve be banished from the garden. The Rider on the White Horse was in the midst of them. And they were in The Heart of the Earth and looked back at the entrance to the garden and a flaming sword was placed in front of thr entrance so that the way back to the garden was kept from them.
> And I heard a language unknown to me that was used by them that I could understand. And I heard Adam ask the Rider what a way could be to get back to the garden. And I heard the Rider say to them, "Dust you are and dust you will return to." The two looked saddaned and then the Rider said to them, "There is a way, for your spirit can return to God, for when a seed falls to the ground and dies, it abides alone. But if it die, it can bring forth much fruit."
> LouFriends,
In the revelation I could see the Rider in the midst of the two and they looked frightened and troubled. I could hear them continuing to ask the Rider what the way was to get back to the garden. And I heard the Rider in the midst of them say, "Let not your hearts be troubled. If you believe in God, believe also in me. In My Father's house there are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go and prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know."
Then Adam said to Him, "We do not know where you are going and how can we know the way?"
The Rider said to them,"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy , but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
Lou
Posted by Dena on September 9, 2008, at 22:06:37
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund--, posted by Lou Pilder on September 9, 2008, at 19:58:43
Lou --
wondering, is "the place" He was going to perhaps the place of Atonement...? That He was going to make a way for them (& all of us) to return to God?
I see what happened in the garden as more of a turning, than of a falling ~ that the woman (isha) turned from God to the man, in order to get her significance/purpose/identity. I see that the man (ish) turned from God to the ground (the work of his hands) in order to find his significance/purpose/identity ... we continue to do the same to this very day, but I see that that neither other relationships nor our work can give to us what only God can give to us (significance/purpose/identity).
I see that the Anointed One came to make a way for us to REturn back to God ... not to bring us into any religion, but to call us out of religion(s) and to Himself.
I see that He says "follow Me" (not "follow the rules of a religion"), and He is the Way, He is the Truth, and He is the Life ... who brings us back to God.
I see that He is the One who will leave the 99, and go after the one which is lost [same word for "destroyed" in Greek], seeking 'til He finds them.
I no longer see that the message is: "God's mad, you're bad, try harder."I see that God saw we were dying of a terminal disease, and He Himself became the cure to save us from what was killing us.
What kind of radical love is that, no?
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers.""We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something.""Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."
"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 12, 2008, at 19:48:59
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund--, posted by Lou Pilder on September 9, 2008, at 19:58:43
> > > > Lou
> > > >
> > > > It is lovely to hear you speak of this.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you
> > >
> > > Sigismund,
> > > You wrote,[...to hear...].
> > > It has been revealed to me that when one receives what I had posted that they could be in the paradise of God today, for as those that receive, a power will be given to them to become Sons of God.
> > > In continuing the revelation that has been revealed to me the two ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil. And God had said to them that if they did eat from that tree that they would die. In the revelation I saw Adam and his wife be banished from the Garden and they entered a new realm upon leaving. They entered the Valley of the Shadow of Death. They had died. Their death was a spiritual death, for they had been banished from God's companionship as they had in the Garden before they ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil. They could not return to the garden and the tree of life.
> > > Lou
> >
> > Friends,
> > It was revealed to me with a going back in time to the beginnung where I saw Adam and Eve be banished from the garden. The Rider on the White Horse was in the midst of them. And they were in The Heart of the Earth and looked back at the entrance to the garden and a flaming sword was placed in front of thr entrance so that the way back to the garden was kept from them.
> > And I heard a language unknown to me that was used by them that I could understand. And I heard Adam ask the Rider what a way could be to get back to the garden. And I heard the Rider say to them, "Dust you are and dust you will return to." The two looked saddaned and then the Rider said to them, "There is a way, for your spirit can return to God, for when a seed falls to the ground and dies, it abides alone. But if it die, it can bring forth much fruit."
> > Lou
>
> Friends,
> In the revelation I could see the Rider in the midst of the two and they looked frightened and troubled. I could hear them continuing to ask the Rider what the way was to get back to the garden. And I heard the Rider in the midst of them say, "Let not your hearts be troubled. If you believe in God, believe also in me. In My Father's house there are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go and prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know."
> Then Adam said to Him, "We do not know where you are going and how can we know the way?"
> The Rider said to them,"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy , but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
> LouFriends,
And I watched the Rider leave the two and they were in a land of hostility. Gone were the lush meadows of the Garden, and there were now thorns and thistles and dust. Gone was the crystal river and there were insects and snakes. Gone were the gold and the beautiful stones, and there were rocks. And Adam yelled out, "I thirst."
Then there was darkness over the whole land and Adam cried out in a loud voice, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Lou
Posted by Dena on November 14, 2008, at 19:14:47
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund--, posted by Lou Pilder on November 12, 2008, at 19:48:59
Hi Lou, and Sigismund.
This quote, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me" has long troubled me...
I read that the Anointed One cried it out, as dying, while He became our sin ... and others have told me that this means that God cannot be near our sin, and thus He separated from the Anointed One in His death (& that He also flees from us when we sin).
However, that doesn't square with the verse that I read here, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself"... that tells me that God never separated from the Messiah, but was with Him, IN Him, while He was sin itself. So too, is He with us when we sin, drawing us back to Himself. The Messiah, full of sin at that moment, sin itself, *perceived* that God had left Him -- because the nature of sin is to blind us to truth. But that wasn't the *reality* of what was going on. We've had some rather tainted traditions, due to faulty doctrines and misunderstandings...
Then, I learned that the Messiah was crying out the first line of a Psalm -- much as we do when we title songs, and ask for them by name. The first line was the "name" of the Psalm (they weren't then numbered). The Psalm that He cried out, is Psalm 22 ...
(Here it is in the KJV):
Psalm 22
1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?2O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.
If I understand correctly, the Jewish people at that time would know the entire Psalm (as at least most of the men had memorized the Psalms), and thus they would know what the Messiah was intending to say (but could not, physically, while dying).When I read the entire psalm, particularly verses 27 to the end), I see that He was saying, "I'm fulfilling that which was foretold -- I am the one who is making it possible for all to be saved - for salvation comes from/through the Jews, the ones set aside by God, to usher forth the Messiah, blessed to be a blessing to the world, as was told to Abraham -- through you shall ALL families on earth be blessed."
It seems to me that He was announcing that this had happened, that it was being fulfilled before them, even as He said to His Father, "Forgive them [all of them, the Jews, the Romans, all of the humans who would ever exist], for they know not what they do."
The Savior of all, especially those who believe ... (those who believe experience it now, but all are saved, and will eventually experience it as well).
(Those are my thoughts, as I think on that verse you shared, Lou.)
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 4, 2008, at 19:47:00
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund--, posted by Lou Pilder on November 12, 2008, at 19:48:59
> > > > > Lou
> > > > >
> > > > > It is lovely to hear you speak of this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you
> > > >
> > > > Sigismund,
> > > > You wrote,[...to hear...].
> > > > It has been revealed to me that when one receives what I had posted that they could be in the paradise of God today, for as those that receive, a power will be given to them to become Sons of God.
> > > > In continuing the revelation that has been revealed to me the two ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil. And God had said to them that if they did eat from that tree that they would die. In the revelation I saw Adam and his wife be banished from the Garden and they entered a new realm upon leaving. They entered the Valley of the Shadow of Death. They had died. Their death was a spiritual death, for they had been banished from God's companionship as they had in the Garden before they ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil. They could not return to the garden and the tree of life.
> > > > Lou
> > >
> > > Friends,
> > > It was revealed to me with a going back in time to the beginnung where I saw Adam and Eve be banished from the garden. The Rider on the White Horse was in the midst of them. And they were in The Heart of the Earth and looked back at the entrance to the garden and a flaming sword was placed in front of thr entrance so that the way back to the garden was kept from them.
> > > And I heard a language unknown to me that was used by them that I could understand. And I heard Adam ask the Rider what a way could be to get back to the garden. And I heard the Rider say to them, "Dust you are and dust you will return to." The two looked saddaned and then the Rider said to them, "There is a way, for your spirit can return to God, for when a seed falls to the ground and dies, it abides alone. But if it die, it can bring forth much fruit."
> > > Lou
> >
> > Friends,
> > In the revelation I could see the Rider in the midst of the two and they looked frightened and troubled. I could hear them continuing to ask the Rider what the way was to get back to the garden. And I heard the Rider in the midst of them say, "Let not your hearts be troubled. If you believe in God, believe also in me. In My Father's house there are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go and prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know."
> > Then Adam said to Him, "We do not know where you are going and how can we know the way?"
> > The Rider said to them,"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy , but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
> > Lou
>
> Friends,
> And I watched the Rider leave the two and they were in a land of hostility. Gone were the lush meadows of the Garden, and there were now thorns and thistles and dust. Gone was the crystal river and there were insects and snakes. Gone were the gold and the beautiful stones, and there were rocks. And Adam yelled out, "I thirst."
> Then there was darkness over the whole land and Adam cried out in a loud voice, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
> LouFriends,
Then Adam and Eve were arguing. Eve was telling Adam that he should have not eaten of the tree and then he would not have felt that God has forsaken him.
Adam said to Eve, "It was not good for me to be alone, and God caused me to fall into a dep sleep and took a bone from me to make you. He told me that he would give me the desires of my heart. When you offered for me to eat of the tree, I knew that if I did not eat of the tree that I would be alone, for you would die. I chose that I would follow you wherever you may go, for I do not think that God could make another you.
Lou
Posted by Dena on January 7, 2009, at 22:30:32
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Sigismund--, posted by Lou Pilder on December 4, 2008, at 19:47:00
That's an interesting perspective, Lou ... not that God set up a perfect place, the Garden, and then we went and blew it, and have totally mucked up the world...and then God's been working hard to get us back into the Garden-perfection.
I see that God called the Garden "very good", but not perfect (the perfect was yet to come...).
I see that the Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world, so the Lamb was always Plan A, and so Adam and Eve *had* to fall, to "turn" ... there had to be a choice ... there had to be something to teach "all of creation" ... that the love of God is THE most powerful force in all the universe -- more powerful even than fear (which is the second most powerful force).
At least, that's as I'm seeing it, at this stage of my journey...
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Shes_InItForTheMoney on September 16, 2011, at 14:37:06
In reply to Lou's response to rayww-thwaythtrunthlif, posted by Lou PIlder on July 23, 2008, at 21:43:26
> > > Adam and his wife, Eve, were warned by God not to eat of the
> >
> > <<<<
> > If Adam had a wife, and her name was Eve, I assume they were married by God. Can people be married by God today, and if so, how? Mormons believe that is one purpose of temples, and through the priesthood these marriages can take place. People of my faith believe that Adam and Eve are still married (in heaven) and that all the families of earth are being organized so that everyone knows their priesthood authority back to Adam and Eve.
> >
> > >>>>tree of the knowlege of good and evil or they would die. They ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil, but not of the tree of life that was in the midst of the garden which if they had eaten of that tree in the midst of the garden, they would have lived forever
> >
> > <<<
> > and none of us could have been born
> >
> > > and God banished them from the garden.
> > > The tree of life was in the midst of the garden. It has been revealed to me that he that overcomes shall be given to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
> > > And there is a City of God where god is in the midst of, and a river runs through it.
> > > It has been revealed to me that if Adam and Eve had eaten of the tree of life that they would have been in God's image for they would have had God's nature along with the nature of the knowlege of good and evil. And it has been revealed to me that we were born to be in the image of God , a son of god, and that we can be completed to be Sons of God by eating of the tree of life that was in the midst of the garden.
> >
> > <<<
> > your wisdom astounds me Lou
> >
> > > And in a revelation I met a Rider on a White Horse and He said to me, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them."
> >
> > <<<<
> > I'm sure those are the words of Christ Lou.
> > http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/18/20#20
>
> Friends,
> It is written here,[...your wisdom astounds me Lou...].
> What I have been writing here is from a revelation, and to go on in that revelation, I saw the garden. I saw that Adam and Eve were gathered together in God's name and that they had fellowship with Him. And I saw the Tree of Life in the midst of the garden. The tree was like none that I have ever seen. And I saw a river and gold about and other stones of beauty.
> The Tree of Life was like an apparition, changing shape and it is impossible for me to describe it, like a luminescence, and I do not think that it was solid...then it changed to a pillar of fire, then back to what looked like a man, the limbs looking like arms that had hands that were in a position as to that they were going to clap.
> Then the tree changed to a Rider on a White Horse in the midst of the two people. The Rider on the White Horse was there in the beginning with God in the midst of them that were gathered in His name.
> The the Rider said to me," Whosoever eats of my flesh and drinks my blood, has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day, for I am the Life."
> Lou
>
>The White Horse has also been attributed to evil, and some say the Anti-Christ himself.Reason being is differences between the white horse in Revelation 6 and Jesus on the white Horse in Revelation 19. In Revelation 19 Jesus has many crowns, but in Revelation 6 the rider has just one.
See, like most things in scripture, many things are incomplete, and can't be taken literally.
Jay
This is the end of the thread.
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