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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rayww on February 3, 2004, at 1:22:57
If you can't have faith in god, may I suggest exercising faith in traditional family? The recent decision of our Canadian government to dismantle the family is disturbing to me. If we are honest truth seekers, then let me ask what is the honest truth about family? The family "can be" the closest thing to Godliness on the earth.
Family was instituted by God, who intended it to provide safety, security, and love for each "one" of his children. We can all do better in supporting the family. It is the only "real" institution in our nation/world. It is an organization that has been set up to last forever, to perpetuate itself throughout all time, to reproduce and keep going forever, even on into the eternities.
So, exercise a little more faith in family, in the name of God. Know that family is truth, and have confidence to work toward creating a solid one by living true to the principles that uphold it. It takes work, but it's worth it.
I am grateful to belong to a religion that upholds the family and provides constant support for parents who are trying their best to teach truth to their children.
Shame, shame, shame on Canada. What have you done? You will be held accountable, and I fear the outcome.
If you think this is gay bashing, then you don't understand the issue here. I know and love people who don't uphold my moral beliefs. They are certainly free to choose. However, if this gets pushed into the religions of America and it tries to dictate who must be allowed good standing privileges, no matter how they choose to live their life, I guess all moral Christians will be at war.
The world is in a mess and we have two choices. 1. Make it worse, 2. Clean it up.
The best way I know to clean up the world, is to clean up the family. Dress them up, take them to church, teach faith in God, tell them about prayer.
It works.
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 3, 2004, at 9:31:41
In reply to faith in family, posted by rayww on February 3, 2004, at 1:22:57
I do follow international news.. but am unsure what you mean by "The recent decision of our Canadian government to dismantle the family is disturbing to me"..
I'm guessing from your later comment that you mean by legalising gay marriage. How will this dismantle the family?? Is because homosexuality is a sin in the eys of God, and as such homosexuals shouldn't be attending church?
Do you think that a true family is only those that attend church??
Truly interested in your replies..
Nikki x
Posted by rayww on February 3, 2004, at 23:37:55
In reply to Re: faith in family » rayww, posted by NikkiT2 on February 3, 2004, at 9:31:41
> I do follow international news.. but am unsure what you mean by "The recent decision of our Canadian government to dismantle the family is disturbing to me"..
>
> I'm guessing from your later comment that you mean by legalising gay marriage.[you have guessed]
How will this dismantle the family?? Is it because homosexuality is a sin in the eys of God, and as such homosexuals shouldn't be attending church?
[absolutely not]When something is placed on a mantle, it is considered precious. It takes care to preserve, and stays sparkling only when periodically cleaned and maintained. Sticking with the word, "dismantle", here are a few dictionary definitions:
dis·man·tle v
1. to take something apart in a way that causes it to stop working[ shouldn't marriage have something to do with making babies and protecting children? Every child has the right to be well bred, well fed, and well led ]
2. to be able to be separated into components[Marriage is no longer just marriage, you have to now ask "what component"]
3. to destroy something, for example, an institution or system, by removing essential elements["institution" of marriage and family was founded upon essential elements of love, loyalty, mutual trust and respect, and of course moral integrity]
4. to strip a room or building of furniture or equipment[kind of empty]
>
> Do you think that a true family is only those that attend church??[No. Attending church is not what creates a true family. A true family is true. A true family is not perfect by any means, but they try their best in a troubled and mixed up world to hold it all together. True religion gives true help and true support, and makes it easier to do, but tons have done it on their own, even though they don't acknowledge their partnership with God, who created them] [or God's silent partnership with them]
>
> Truly interested in your replies..
>
> Nikki xAnd I am interested in yours.
rayww
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 5, 2004, at 1:26:12
In reply to Re: faith in family » NikkiT2, posted by rayww on February 3, 2004, at 23:37:55
> shouldn't marriage have something to do with making babies and protecting children? ...
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like follow-ups regarding marriage to be redirected to Psycho-Social-Babble, thanks.
Bob
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 5, 2004, at 8:21:35
In reply to Re: faith in family » NikkiT2, posted by rayww on February 3, 2004, at 23:37:55
Sorry, but I'm keeping this here as I am interested in the religious perspective here.
So.. married people who choose not to have children?? Are they any different, in the eyes of the church, from a homosexual couple who are unable, obviously, to coneive children naturally. I have gay friends with children.. (one couple, male, adopted - one couple, female, used artificial insemination).. The male couple even had a religious blessing for there union here in London, by a gay clergy man.
On the other hand, I was married in an entirely civil ceremony with no religious aspect to it at all. My hsband and I have been amrried 4 years, and through choice have no children (these might come in the future, but they might now!)To quote you "["institution" of marriage and family was founded upon essential elements of love, loyalty, mutual trust and respect, and of course moral integrity]".. my gay friends have alot of love, alot of loyalty, mutual trust and respect, and indeed moral integrity.
So, I guess my question here really, in your eyes, and in your understanding of the church - is marriage about making babies and raising them. Or is it about two people who love each other very much and want to spend the rest of their lives together and celebrate this love with other people??
Thanks for the dialogue
Nikki x
Posted by rayww on February 6, 2004, at 10:21:34
In reply to Re: faith in family » rayww, posted by NikkiT2 on February 5, 2004, at 8:21:35
a tree is not just the branch and the flower. A tree has roots. Sure, the leaves look beautiful and the flowers dance together, making merry sunshine, but what produced the leaf? What produced the flower? Every living thing, whether a plant, bird, fish, animal, human has been programmed to multiply and replentish. I say programmed, but actually put here for the purpose of. Can you plant a flower and grow a tree?
We now know how to make babies in test tubes. does that mean everyone should be able to have one?
Religion and faith issues on marriage and family:
The root I was referring to at the beginning goes back to the beginning of time. Adam and Eve, male and female, were created, and then commanded to multiply and replentish the earth. We, (you and I) are the fruit. but the tree that produced the fruit was kept growing into the future by natural reproduction processes. (like this so far???)If we turn reproduction over to the fruit alone, reproduction will wither, and things like aunts, uncles, cousins will begin to disappear. Every now and then a seed may get planted and grow, but most likely the seed will just get eaten with the fruit. (gee this is getting better)
You ask me questions about fruit and flowers, not of roots. Flowers dance in the sunshine but fall to the wind. fruit also falls and reseeds itself, to replentish the forest. (getting a little gushy here)
Traditional marriage is sacred to me. I have faith in God and in his plan concerning family. If you want to read the official position of the church concerning marriage and family read this: At the time it was written, we all wondered why the brethren had to write something so basic and call it an official declaration.
I believe in the rights of others and freedom to choose, but I also believe in cause and effect, accountability, and consequense. I trust nature, and have faith in its balance. When even the tiniest element gets out of balance, there is a rippling effect. Life is balance. Economy is balance. Enviornment is balance. Balance in motion. The world moves so fast and has to maintain balance at the same time. Proof that god really is in charge.
I live 60 miles away from the mountains, yet I have never driven toward them and seen the same picture twice. There has never been two identical days. There are no identical people. Even with cloning you will not get identical people, because you cannot clone a spirit. Life is all about balance and accountability.
You've heard the phrase, "don't upset the apple cart"? Well, the apple cart we push through life is fragile, full of precious cargo, and hard to keep in motion.
I know many wonderful people who are lesbien or homosexual, but they are all accountable to the same laws of nature that I am. I think of Paul in the New Testament as he describes "thorn in the flesh" . We all have our personal thorn in the flesh that we have to live with. We either succomb to it or make a life around it. One dear friend has chosen to be true to her faith in God. She has many woman friends, and lives with a straight friend, and chooses to stay loyal to the royal in her. Sometimes it is a choice between celebicy and sin. I agree, some are born gay because there are feminite and masculine genes in all degrees in everyone. Are people born smokers, drinkers, or born to be immoral? Immorality in any form is an addiction. Immorality causes depression and depression causes immorality because of the balance issue. We're opening a can of worms here because this topic doesn't have a lid.
Posted by rayww on February 6, 2004, at 20:06:36
In reply to Re: faith in family » rayww, posted by NikkiT2 on February 5, 2004, at 8:21:35
I hope dialogue is allowed. You have asked some pretty good questions. Does anyone but God have the answers? Here is the "missing link" that was left out of my former post with some answers, official statements, etc. http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,1458-1,00.html
My answer to your main question,
("in your eyes, and in your understanding of the church - is marriage about making babies and raising them. Or is it about two people who love each other very much and want to spend the rest of their lives together and celebrate this love with other people??")
my answer would have to be, BOTH. Marriage is about making babies and raising them, and about two people who love each other very much and want to spend the rest of their lives together. Hey, the world gets confused on a lot of issues. That's why we need to seek truth and figure out what life is all about; where did I come from, why am I here, and where will I go after I die, sort of things. Those are the faith issues. Faith means believing in something you know to be true, even though it can't be proven scientifically, "yet". Can it be scientifically proven that gay marriage shouldn't be allowed? Polygamy was declared illegal 150 years ago, and those who were already practising it were prosecuted and imprisoned. What would happen if the same thing happened today against gay marriage? I think we have all learned a lot about human rights, but not quite sure what direction our learning is taking us. I wonder if a frank discussion on this topic is appropriate for the faith board. I mean, why is it not possible to discuss this civilly? Is it simply a cat and dog issue?, or a designer label topic? Heck if I know.
rayww
> Sorry, but I'm keeping this here as I am interested in the religious perspective here.
>
> So.. married people who choose not to have children?? Are they any different, in the eyes of the church, from a homosexual couple who are unable, obviously, to coneive children naturally. I have gay friends with children.. (one couple, male, adopted - one couple, female, used artificial insemination).. The male couple even had a religious blessing for there union here in London, by a gay clergy man.
> On the other hand, I was married in an entirely civil ceremony with no religious aspect to it at all. My hsband and I have been amrried 4 years, and through choice have no children (these might come in the future, but they might now!)
>
> To quote you "["institution" of marriage and family was founded upon essential elements of love, loyalty, mutual trust and respect, and of course moral integrity]".. my gay friends have alot of love, alot of loyalty, mutual trust and respect, and indeed moral integrity.
>
> So, I guess my question here really, in your eyes, and in your understanding of the church - is marriage about making babies and raising them. Or is it about two people who love each other very much and want to spend the rest of their lives together and celebrate this love with other people??>
> Thanks for the dialogue
>
> Nikki x
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 7, 2004, at 17:00:15
In reply to Re: faith in family » NikkiT2, posted by rayww on February 6, 2004, at 20:06:36
> Every living thing ... has been programmed to multiply and replentish. I say programmed, but actually put here for the purpose of.
I'm afraid that someone who doesn't multiply might take the above to imply that they aren't fulfilling their purpose. Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, could you please rephrase that?
> I wonder if a frank discussion on this topic is appropriate for the faith board. I mean, why is it not possible to discuss this civilly?
Frank doesn't necessarily imply civil...
Bob
Posted by rayww on February 7, 2004, at 23:13:10
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » rayww, posted by Dr. Bob on February 7, 2004, at 17:00:15
> > Every living thing ... has been programmed to multiply and replentish. I say programmed, but actually put here for eternal purpose.
>
> I'm afraid that someone who doesn't multiply might take the above to imply that they aren't fulfilling their purpose.Life's promises may not all be fulfilled here in mortality. The thousand years of peace after the Messiah comes will be a time to fulfill all righteousness. Accountability has a lot to do with opportunity and circumstance, some of which can't possibly happen here. The handicapped will have all opportunity and circumstance in a perfect frame sometime and beyond. God is love, and this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God, that's all. http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/34/32#32
>
> > I wonder if a frank discussion on this topic is appropriate for the faith board. I mean, why is it not possible to discuss this civilly?
>
> Frank doesn't necessarily imply civil...
>End of discussion then. There doesn't appear to be many readers to take offense. I like to stretch and explore new thought as I write. do you? How about a little something from Bob? Isn't it about time?
Go ahead, pick a topic of faith, remembering anything qualifies.....rayww :)
Posted by Simus on February 9, 2004, at 21:58:05
In reply to Re: please rephrase that, posted by rayww on February 7, 2004, at 23:13:10
> this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God, that's all.
I hope this isn't offending anyone, but I would like to put in a little plug here for Christianity. The only thing you have to do in preparation to meet God in Christianity is to ask Jesus to become the Lord of your life. It's that quick and that simple. It's a "come-as-you-are" proposition. Then we are made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Personally, I'm grateful for this provision, because even if I had a lifetime to prepare on my own to meet God, my righteousness would still be as filthy rags and I would fail miserably in the end.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 9, 2004, at 22:45:11
In reply to Re: please rephrase that, posted by rayww on February 7, 2004, at 23:13:10
Posted by rayww on March 15, 2004, at 17:37:03
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » rayww, posted by Simus on February 9, 2004, at 21:58:05
Simus, you seem to be a sincere and special person who believes in Jesus Christ personally, and tries to follow him. I don't want you to feel hurt or offended but I would like to explain why I think what you just said contradicts what it says in the Bible. No offense personally intended. It would seem to me that if i wasn't trying to keep the commandments I wouldn't care about Jesus. Jesus enables me to keep the commandments, and prayer makes me humble. Sharing my testimony makes me grow in faith, and loving my family and my neighbor makes me feel close to God. So if I'm living a crappy life what is there in it that will make me want to change enough to accept Jesus into my heart and as you say, invite Him to "become the Lord in my life"? Why would I invite Jesus for supper if I was going to serve him dog food? If I'm going to invite Jesus into my house, (myself), I want to make sure it is clean, or that I am working on it. Is there no logic in the Christian religion? I can't understand a sealed book. You seal the logic right out of the Bible when you say all we have to do to prepare for the great and terrible day of the Lord, is to invite him into our hearts. It's not good enough for me. How could a loving god look upon my struggles to repent as filthy rags? Surely he will accept my burnt offering and take it from there.
It is my opinion that the Bible teaches that Faith, Repentance, Baptism and following in Jesus footsteps is the path that leads to heaven. Jesus openly criticized the hypocrite, or the person who with word and ritual only, made it look like he was serving god.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=1+Peter+2%3A21&search.x=31&search.y=8
Posted by Simus on March 16, 2004, at 0:42:36
In reply to fellow Christians, posted by rayww on March 15, 2004, at 17:37:03
> Simus, you seem to be a sincere and special person who believes in Jesus Christ personally, and tries to follow him. I don't want you to feel hurt or offended but I would like to explain why I think what you just said contradicts what it says in the Bible. No offense personally intended.
No offense taken at all. No problem.
>It would seem to me that if i wasn't trying to keep the commandments I wouldn't care about Jesus. Jesus enables me to keep the commandments,
I couldn't agree more. Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." John 14:15
>and prayer makes me humble. Sharing my testimony makes me grow in faith, and loving my family and my neighbor makes me feel close to God.
I agree that these are among the things that make us humble, grow in faith, and make us feel close to God.
>So if I'm living a crappy life what is there in it that will make me want to change enough to accept Jesus into my heart and as you say, invite Him to "become the Lord in my life"?
Isaiah 61:3 says that Jesus will "give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;" That was good enough incentive for me. I beats anything the world had to offer me.
>Why would I invite Jesus for supper if I was going to serve him dog food?
The Bible is very, very clear on how God sees people, even those caught up in sin. Ephesians 2:4-5 "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)," John 3:16 says that "for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotton Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
>If I'm going to invite Jesus into my house, (myself), I want to make sure it is clean, or that I am working on it.
That is your choice, but it isn't a requirement. Do you really think that after your best efforts, you will then be worthy of your own merit to stand in the presence of the Almighty? Isaiah 64:6 "All our righteousness are as filthy rags."
>Is there no logic in the Christian religion?
Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."
I couldn't add anything to that if I tried.>I can't understand a sealed book.
Religion is what seals the Bible. Open it up and read it for yourself. It will expose the truth to you, and the truth will make you free.
>You seal the logic right out of the Bible when you say all we have to do to prepare for the great and terrible day of the Lord, is to invite him into our hearts.
Actually, those are your words, not mine. I said, "The only thing you have to do in preparation to meet God in Christianity is to ask Jesus to become the Lord of your life." This is referring to the act of becoming a Christian. Then, of course, we have to "grow up" and walk out our Christian life on this earth. To what "great and terrible day" are you referring?
>It's not good enough for me.
Sorry.
>How could a loving god look upon my struggles to repent as filthy rags?
Isaiah 64:6 says "All our righteousness are as filthy rags." That isn't referring to our struggles to repent, but our attempt to be righteous under our own power.
>Surely he will accept my burnt offering and take it from there.
That is between you and God.
> It is my opinion that the Bible teaches that Faith, Repentance, Baptism and following in Jesus footsteps is the path that leads to heaven.
The path that leads to heaven? The Kingdom of God is at hand. As far as faith, repentance, baptism, and following in Jesus' footsteps, the Bible has a LOT to say on these issues. But my comment was just geared toward becoming a Christian, not growing up in the Lord.
>Jesus openly criticized the hypocrite, or the person who with word and ritual only, made it look like he was serving god.
Yes He did.
I appologize for never looking at the sites you reference. But I will gladly read any Bible verses you reference, if you don't actually include them in your post.
Thanks for your comments. You always challenge me to dig deeper into the Bible and to keep learning.
Posted by rayww on March 17, 2004, at 12:07:28
In reply to Re: fellow Christians » rayww, posted by Simus on March 16, 2004, at 0:42:36
Thanks Simus, that was a kind response. My links begin with Old, then New Testament verses. I went to some of your references and linked to the whole thought. I agree in principle with you. It's our definitions that differ a bit.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=isaiah+1%3A16-20&search.x=31&search.y=10
> Isaiah 61:3 says that Jesus will "give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;" That was good enough incentive for me. I beats anything the world had to offer me.
>
> The Bible is very, very clear on how God sees people, even those caught up in sin. Ephesians 2:4-5 "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),"http://scriptures.lds.org/eph/2/4-5#4
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=John+3%3A16-21
John 3:16 says that "for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotton Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.">
> Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."
> I couldn't add anything to that if I tried.http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=isaiah+1%3A16-20&search.x=31&search.y=10
http://scriptures.lds.org/isa/64/6#6
> Isaiah 64:6 says "All our righteousness are as filthy rags." That isn't referring to our struggles to repent, but our attempt to be righteous under our own power.
Thanks Simus, I find these discussions get us all deeper into our scriptures.
This is the end of the thread.
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