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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Racer on September 8, 2006, at 21:15:00
I'm here as a warning to others, an object lesson, a role model for misery.
At least, my T told me last night in front of the group that, despite two people in the group saying they felt disconnected because I was crying my way through the whole group session, she was glad I was there, because seeing me was good for the other members of the group. That's when it hit me -- my purpose in life was before me all the time...
OK, so it probably wasn't so bad, and I do know that she meant it well. I wasn't bothered by it, and kinda felt OK about it. (And managed admit two things during group: that I was bothered by the casual touching from another group member, and that I felt as though I was using too much Kleenex. My T laughed and told me NOT to bring in boxes of Kleenex to make up for it, that it was OK for me to use as much Kleenex as I wanted/needed... The touching thing was uncomfortable for me, and it still feels funny to have said it to her.)
(Actually, I'm still kinda shaking and folding inwards about it...)
Anyway, the part of the group that bothered me most, I think, last night -- aside from being by far the fattest one there -- was that I was crying, and wrapped up in my own internal reality, and disconnected by all that AND still able to offer up the same sorts of things that I always do. You know, stuff I think it actually helpful. Or humorous -- I told someone what I do to try to counter the "I am a pathetic loser with no redeeming qualities" thoughts, prefacing my comment by saying, "I realize I am the poster child for lousy self esteem, but..." (Believe it or not, I do have my counter to that sort of thought. It may not be perfect, and it may not be the goal, but it helps fairly often. I think of someone I like/admire/respect, and remind myself that whoever it is likes me, thinks enough of me to be my friend. More helpful than not...)
Somehow, if I had had to curl up in the corner of the chesterfield/davenport/sofa/couch and just cry, without speaking a coherent word, I think I could have handled that better. Somehow, having that sort of disconnect bothered me a great deal -- that I could emerge long enough to speak, then submerge again. Dunno...
Maybe I feel as though I must be faking if I can do that?
Posted by llrrrpp on September 9, 2006, at 0:16:36
In reply to Now I know my purpose in life..., posted by Racer on September 8, 2006, at 21:15:00
Racer-
you help me so much. I'm so sorry that you're hurting so bad. I bet you feel all weak and shaky with the eye leakage.
I think you have a purpose in life, but it's just too complicated to wrap your head around. It's more complicated than any one situation, or any one personality trait, or reaction. It's probably greater than the sum of all of your moments that you've spent on this Earth.
Well, I got out my nibs and pen because of you. Maybe that's your purpose (for me, for this evening).
Sometimes it's okay to just be...
-ll
Posted by finelinebob on September 9, 2006, at 4:18:24
In reply to Now I know my purpose in life..., posted by Racer on September 8, 2006, at 21:15:00
> I'm here as a warning to others, an object lesson, a role model for misery.
Pain is pain. Let the others have their own. They cannot walk your path. And you cannot walk theirs.
> Maybe I feel as though I must be faking if I can do that?Or maybe when you can't help yourself, all you can do is try to help others. And that is genuine.
flb
Posted by Racer on September 9, 2006, at 20:32:02
In reply to Re: Now I know my purpose in life... » Racer, posted by finelinebob on September 9, 2006, at 4:18:24
I was kinda hoping that would end up being a lighter and more humorous post. I guess there were still too many tears, too recently, when I wrote it...
I wish I could even identify what I'm feeling, what's causing this pain. That's frustrating, and adds to the anxiety. Mostly, I was posting that because it did strike me as funny in a sad sort of way that my T was thanking me for crying.
I told the group that it was pure Pavlovian conditioning: I walk into my T's therapy room, and the tears start...
Not true, but I really was hoping to reduce the tension...
And at least I got there! I know that was an accomplishment for me.
Posted by Phillipa on September 9, 2006, at 22:48:48
In reply to I'm not that bad off, really..., posted by Racer on September 9, 2006, at 20:32:02
Maybe Bob is right. You have to help yourself and if you cry so what. I'm learning to do that too. Quit putting yourself down. Ha Ha I'm a great one to talk about that and give advise as in real life that's all I do. Love Phillipa
Posted by finelinebob on September 10, 2006, at 0:51:23
In reply to Now I know my purpose in life..., posted by Racer on September 8, 2006, at 21:15:00
> I'm here as a warning to others, an object lesson, a role model for misery.
>
> At least, my T told me last night in front of the group that, despite two people in the group saying they felt disconnected because I was crying my way through the whole group session, she was glad I was there, because seeing me was good for the other members of the group. That's when it hit me -- my purpose in life was before me all the time...And maybe you as well, but you were there and I wasn't so I have no context for judging. But that never stopped me before, so...
I reacted the way I did because of your first line. I have a violent (as in strong, not mean) reaction to comparing pain. It cannot be done. There is no such thing as an "objective" measure of pain, because pain is subjective and too primitive to be rational or rationalized.
But I'm going to offer an alternative hypothesis. If your T didn't mean it this way, maybe subconsciously she did. Or maybe consciously she did.
If you could get yourself to the session, knowing ahead of time you were going to cry through it and then actually crying through it, but still contributing ... well, for those people who felt disconnected, your T may have been pointing you out as someone who could be genuine within the group and, because of that, connected. If your show of emotion pushed them away, then they are choosing not to be in the group where you, painful as it may be, ARE choosing to be in it.
If she meant it well, maybe that is what she meant.
flb
Posted by Racer on September 10, 2006, at 2:00:50
In reply to Well, maybe I misinterpreted... » Racer, posted by finelinebob on September 10, 2006, at 0:51:23
> >
>
> And maybe you as well, but you were there and I wasn't so I have no context for judging. But that never stopped me before, so...
>
> I reacted the way I did because of your first line. I have a violent (as in strong, not mean) reaction to comparing pain. It cannot be done.No, it can't be done. There's no hierarchy of suffering. My pain is, your pain is, and I'm sorry if my flippancy triggered a negative reaction for you. I was just in that kinda flip, kinda bitter spot that isn't one of my most attractive...
> If she meant it well, maybe that is what she meant.
> flbI do trust that she meant it well. I'm pretty sure she'd be shocked to think that it might have been interpreted any other way, although she oughta know me well enough by now... (I do think she'd laugh, though, if I told her that it sounded as though I was an object lesson for the rest of the group...)
Sorry, Bob. I value you too much to want to create a problem. I'll watch my mouth, cross my heart.
Posted by ClearSkies on September 10, 2006, at 8:46:54
In reply to I'm not that bad off, really..., posted by Racer on September 9, 2006, at 20:32:02
> I was kinda hoping that would end up being a lighter and more humorous post. I guess there were still too many tears, too recently, when I wrote it...
>
> I wish I could even identify what I'm feeling, what's causing this pain. That's frustrating, and adds to the anxiety. Mostly, I was posting that because it did strike me as funny in a sad sort of way that my T was thanking me for crying.
>
> I told the group that it was pure Pavlovian conditioning: I walk into my T's therapy room, and the tears start...
>
> Not true, but I really was hoping to reduce the tension...
>
> And at least I got there! I know that was an accomplishment for me.I cry at least once during each session with my T (you know I'm a Leaker, anyway) but it always distressed me that it's so easy for me to weep in public. I mean, have you ever seen someone crying while they are grocery shopping? What would you do if you saw someone doing that? I can't say that I've ever witnessed it, apart from babies and toddlers... hmmm.
On the other hand, I've met some lovely parking lot attendents this way.Heartfelt handshake to you, Racer
CS
Posted by finelinebob on September 10, 2006, at 15:35:04
In reply to Re: Well, maybe I misinterpreted... » finelinebob, posted by Racer on September 10, 2006, at 2:00:50
> Sorry, Bob. I value you too much to want to create a problem. I'll watch my mouth, cross my heart.
BAH!
If there was a negative reaction, it was to that general point-of-view, not to you. Say whatever you want.
Besides, I'm pretty thick-skinned (and you know what they say about beauty... ;^)
Posted by llrrrpp on September 10, 2006, at 17:56:09
In reply to Re: Well, maybe I misinterpreted... » Racer, posted by finelinebob on September 10, 2006, at 15:35:04
> Besides, I'm pretty thick-skinned (and you know what they say about beauty... ;^)
That it can be enhanced by a mayonaisse facial?
*******
I guess sometimes pain feels so unique and so lonely because we cannot remember it in an experiential way. We can only remember that we "had" pain, not what the actual experience was.
Seeing someone is pain though, is often much more real than remembering my own pain, somehow. I think that this is why I'm triggered in certain circumstances.
There's a nice line of brain imaging research that suggests that psychological pain (i.e. the agony of ostracism, shame or depression) may activate similar networks observed in physical pain (thermal nociception).
I always get cracked up when I see an ad for my anti-depressant on TV. Cymbalta. I even know the music by now. "Depression hurts. ...because cymbalta works on not just serotonin (the green animation running up the back of the cartoon woman) but also norepinephrine (the blue animation running up the back of the cartoon woman), cymbalta treats the physical pain associated with depression." Whata bunch of hooey. // cut to the scene of bright colors and puppy dogs running in a field of daisies. It's all going to better now, right?
Back to killing the fruitflies.
drosophila kebabs, anyone?
Posted by Racer on September 10, 2006, at 18:16:34
In reply to Re: Well, maybe I misinterpreted... » finelinebob, posted by llrrrpp on September 10, 2006, at 17:56:09
> > // cut to the scene of bright colors and puppy dogs running in a field of daisies. It's all going to better now, right?
Do you mean to say that if I'd stayed on Cymbalta, I'd have had PUPPIES IN A FIELD OF DAISIES??? For that, I'd have kept taking it...
>
> Back to killing the fruitflies.
> drosophila kebabs, anyone?
>
>
I'd prefer them with roasted garlic, please. Lightly sauteed...
Posted by ClearSkies on September 10, 2006, at 20:49:19
In reply to Do you mean to say ... ? » llrrrpp, posted by Racer on September 10, 2006, at 18:16:34
> > > // cut to the scene of bright colors and puppy dogs running in a field of daisies. It's all going to better now, right?
>
> Do you mean to say that if I'd stayed on Cymbalta, I'd have had PUPPIES IN A FIELD OF DAISIES??? For that, I'd have kept taking it...
>??? Wait a second! I take Cymbalta and all I have is a cat in a living room full of dustbunnies!!
Posted by llrrrpp on September 10, 2006, at 20:54:21
In reply to Do you mean to say ... ? » llrrrpp, posted by Racer on September 10, 2006, at 18:16:34
I'm allergic to puppies.
I discovered a gigantic bag of flour and a gigantic bag of rice that my roommate conveniently forgot.
I knew about the source of the drosophila, but I have other little buggy things too. at least two species, unknown to my apt. One of them likes rice and computer screens. the other one likes wheat and dark places.
I spend all afternoon dumping Chinese wierdness out of the cabinets and fridge. Throwing out the crap I've been accumulating in my toiletry assortment. Throwing out the rotten food I'm responsible for.
Now I have 4 totally stuffed big black garbage bags, and my place STILL looks like a complete wreck. dammit!
Okay. deep breath.
I'm on the self-esteem board. I have high self esteem when I go into the bathroom with shiny polished porcelain. I have low self-esteem when I go into the kitchen and see 4 big black garbage bags and nothing else changed much.
sorry to take over this thread. I cannot help myself. Can somebody help myself?
-ll
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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