![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 18, 2010, at 5:05:10
Hi, I'm new here, and have just started to come to terms with the reality that I have been consistantly swinging between depression and hypomania for the past 4 years...mostly unconciously until recently. This past winter (my depression def seems to be seasonal) I basically lived under the covers for 4 months...after feeling comfortable enough to share this with a good friend, he helped me slowly pull out of it. The fog had finally lifted by June. These swings make being self-employed disasterous to myself and inconvenient at best to my clients. I cannot afford to sleep under the covers during the height of my busy season (I am an equine sports therapist by trade, and winters in FL are my busiest part of the season)
So, where do I begin? I looked up Lithium and was reading about it and then got sidetracked after finding a few sites that mentioned LiOr. Has anyone used this with success?
I am afraid to go to a pdoc and then be prescribed drugs that will make me swing with drastic side effects that make it difficult to be productive. I'm very much alternative minded (since that is part of my own genre with the horses) and prefer nature over synthetics if at all possible.
What are your thoughts? Where would you start?
Any/every piece of advice or commentary is appreciated!!! Thank You!!!
Posted by morgan miller on September 19, 2010, at 19:40:54
In reply to Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this, posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 18, 2010, at 5:05:10
Have you seen a psychiatrist yet? That is where I would start. If you want to go the alternative route, lithium orotate is very effective. I'm really not sure if it has much benefit over just taking lithium carbonate. I take 1 300 mg extended release lithium carbonate in the morning and one at night. I've been about to replace this treatment with Zyprexa, which is a bit of a nightmare of a drug IMO, though it can be very helpful during times of need. I also take Prozac, but that may change to Zoloft soon.
I think it might be worth a try to see if lithium orotate gives you what you need. I would go to Vitamin Research Products and buy their lithium orotate as it is a quality product, maybe the best out there. You might want to start at 1 capsule in the morning and 1 capsule in the evening. If this is not enough, go to 2 capsules in the morning and 2 in the evening.
Are you taking fish oil? Are you exercising regularly?
Posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 20, 2010, at 11:34:09
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this, posted by morgan miller on September 19, 2010, at 19:40:54
Hi morgan! Thanks for the support and info.
I have not seen a psychiatrist just yet...I am dragging my feet a bit, I would like to fine one who is more Eastern med minded and open to alternative med/supplementation/preventative care. I am very sensitive in general to a lot of things including otc's and prescritptions I've been given in the past. ie: when I was diagnosed with ADHD 4 years ago I was on 5-10 mg Adderall. If I took it in the morning I would be focused and driven to obsession on one thing until quite literally 4 AM...I could barely force myself to eat (had no appetite) and desert mouth. Even if I only took it for a day, I would be exhausted for days. So i stopped taking it unless I really, really needed to get something done.
I don't block out time to workout or "exercise" but I am on the go all the time and have horses which takes some muscle. I do try to eat healthy and limit sugar/dairy in my diet and eat a lot of fresh fruit. For EFA's I eat Chia seed (highest level plant source Omega 3's with an impressive vit/min/amino acid profile) or Sushi! Sushi I definitely notice a significant lift after eating...glad you mentioned fish oil, I may have to try that.
Which brand do you use, how many mgs?
I take a decent food based multi-vit. and Vitex agnus castus to quell...ahem...the hormone crazies. I used to take Rhodiola (New Chapter) and noticed a difference for a while, and then it just didn't do much for me and I still had a bit of an anxious feeling. B6 can really help...my mother swears by it and takes B6 and B12 religiously.
I did go ahead and order Lithium Orotate and the Cell Membrane Complex as well figuring it would help to synchronize everything going in and out of the cell and improve overall cell function in general which would help everything else to do its job properly.
When taking the lithium orotate do I need to be drinking more water than I normally would? Or do you notice yourself naturally drinking enough without forcing it?
I'm hoping it just levels me out. I am feeling mostly alright, but can tell the "d" is sneaking up very slowly...just can feel a bit of a dull pit and lately have not been sleeping well...in fact just got done painting my kitchen (started at 4:30 PM and finished at 6 AM) if that tells you anything! lol
Posted by Hombre on September 20, 2010, at 21:21:53
In reply to Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this, posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 18, 2010, at 5:05:10
The Lithium you get from the doctor is just a mineral salt. They have time-release versions that give you a steadier-state of the mineral in your blood.
That said, minerals in general seem to be calming and grounding. Assuming your main symptoms are depression, there is a Chinese herbal formula that I know of that combines depression fighting herbs with minerals (from fossilized bones, oyster shell) that help calm. The main minerals would be calcium and magnesium. I find magnesium to be indispensable for both energy and calming the nerves. I take it at night
(and during the day) and it helps give me a sound sleep.Let me know if you're interested in more specifics.
Posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 20, 2010, at 23:20:13
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this, posted by Hombre on September 20, 2010, at 21:21:53
hi Hombre, the Chinese supplement sounds interesting...what is it called and what are the herbs in the formula? I just ordered lithium orotate and cell membrane complex (Ca, Mg, and K) made by advanced research. I figured it is worth giving a go to see how I react to low levels of lithium...my body/system is uber sensitive I am fairly certain that if lithium is going to be effective, that the lower levels will suit me better than the ultra high near toxicity levels.
I do want to see a psychiatrist about it, but at the moment I am uninsured, so having a pre-existing condition may not be so great when I do pickup insurance. My plan is to try this and other alternatives for a couple of months first, then see a doc...or sooner if the depression returns full force. Felt a tinge of anxiety and that "falling" feeling for a couple of hours and was able to redirect my attention to music and and a mindless activity. This is pretty similar in pattern to what happened last year.
Posted by morgan miller on September 21, 2010, at 0:40:28
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this » morgan miller, posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 20, 2010, at 11:34:09
For fish oil, any good brand will do, there are several out there-Carlson, Nordic Naturals, Nature's Way, or even Kirkland. The key is to pay attention to how much DHA and EPA is in each capsule. Shoot for a combined 1000 mg or more of DHA and EPA. Most fish oil products have about a 4 to 3 or 3 to 2 EPA to DHA ratio. I would definitely start taking fish oil whatever you do.
Good luck with the lithium orotate! Hop it helps!
Morgan
Posted by Hombre on September 21, 2010, at 23:28:15
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this » Hombre, posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 20, 2010, at 23:20:13
Hi BetweenDreams,
The formula is called Formula:
Chai Hu Jia Long Gu Mu Li Tang
In English, although translations vary:Bupleurum plus Dragon Bone and Oyster Shell Decoction
Ingredients:Radix Bupleuri Chinensis (Chai Hu), Os Draconis (Long Gu), Concha Ostreae (Mu Li), Radix Ginseng (Ren Shen), Sclerotium Poriae Cocos (Fu Ling), Radix Scutellariae Baicalensis (Huang Qin), Ramulus Cinnamomi Cassiae (Gui Zhi), Rhizoma Pinelliae Ternatae (Zhi Ban Xia), Fructus Jujubae (Da Zao), Radix Et Rhizoma Rhei (Da Huang), Rhizoma Zingiberis Officinalis Recens (Sheng Jiang)
Functions and indications:Sedates the sympathetic nervous system. Applicable to insomnia, anxiety, agitation and neurosis, nervine, fullness sensation in chest, palpitations, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia. It can also be used for drug withdrawal.
Typical modern applications include helping people get off drugs, alcohol and/or smoking; panic attacks; irritability; palpitations; epilepsy; gastritis; headaches (including migraines); insomnia; acid regurgitation; and hypertension.
My comments - add a pinch of salt:There are several formulas that include Chai Hu/Bupleurum, a liver-dredging herb that can alleviate depression/feeling "stuck". This one includes the Dragon Bone and Oyster Shell to calm and sedate. Xiao Yao Wan is another famous formula for depression. It's said to be great for women who get PMS-related depression. Finding the right formula is more art than science - you have to see how your body responds.
Sometimes what's needed is to just strengthen the body in general. This usually involves tonifying the Spleen (digestive/metabolic systems), the Kidneys (adrenal/endocrine systems, among others, and the Lungs (O2 -> energy). Lack of energy is usually a part of depression. For anxiety, insomnia and hypomania, tonifying Blood and calming the Heart are usually in order. It takes some time to really understand how to use these concepts to treat yourself. Some may say its impossible or ill-advised. I trust you know what's best for you.
Posted by former poster on September 23, 2010, at 1:48:46
In reply to Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this, posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 18, 2010, at 5:05:10
I tried Lithium Orotate. It felt just the same as lithium carbonate. Some relief at first, days later I began feeling nothing. No pleasure. No personality. Unable to carry on a conversation. Emotionally numb. When the blunted feeling became unbearable I decreased the dose, then severe mood swlngs began Much worse than when I started the Orotate.
But it might work for you?
Posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 23, 2010, at 10:51:15
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this » BetweenDreams81, posted by Hombre on September 21, 2010, at 23:28:15
Thanks Hombre! Fantastic info. It's so hard to choose which to try first...it all sounds great, and who doesn't want relief like yesterday, but the reality is this is going to take a little bit of patience to figure out and I'll probably try one thing at a time to assess and re-assess.
I like the TCM approach to things and find that it works well with the horses...big animals, but incredibly sensitive...in some ways much more so than us humans
I have the LiOr and Cell Membrane Complex (Ca/Mg/K) on order and just picked up D3 yesterday since the depression seems to onset with the seasons and lower levels of it are produced due to the fewer hrs of sun rays. I like the idea of fish oil. I think it is probably wise for me to get some sort of herbal liver/kidney support supplement because of the Lithium even if it is at a miniscule dose. Would that be the Bupleurum? I'd have gone with the Chinese formula if I hadn't already purchased the Cell Membrane Complex...they both have the Ca/Mg/K, though, through different mechanisms of delivery.
I think I will go ahead and make an appointment with a psychiatrist in the next couple weeks though, and I'll just flat out tell them I am not comfortable/interested in taking certain groups of drugs and see what happens. I did find a couple of OD's who specialize in psychiatry.
Hombre, what is your "cocktail" of supplements/Rx etc, if you don't mind my asking? Is it working for you? How long did it take for you to figure out...or is this a constant ever-changing ebb and flow with the unpredictability of life?
Thanks!
Posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 23, 2010, at 11:04:57
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this » BetweenDreams81, posted by former poster on September 23, 2010, at 1:48:46
That's a bummer. What is working for you? How long did you try the orotate? How much were you taking?
Mine should come in the mail today or tomorrow.
Posted by Hombre on September 23, 2010, at 18:58:59
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this » Hombre, posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 23, 2010, at 10:51:15
> Thanks Hombre! Fantastic info. It's so hard to choose which to try first...it all sounds great, and who doesn't want relief like yesterday, but the reality is this is going to take a little bit of patience to figure out and I'll probably try one thing at a time to assess and re-assess.
No problem. It does take a lot of patience, an open mind, and the unwavering belief that you will find a solution.
> I like the TCM approach to things and find that it works well with the horses...big animals, but incredibly sensitive...in some ways much more so than us humans
Chinese medicine is misunderstood and underestimated, even in China. Unfortunately there are a lot of poorly trained practitioners that do not really know what they are doing. That only dilutes the efficacy of CM further and allows it to continue to remain on the fringe.
> I have the LiOr and Cell Membrane Complex (Ca/Mg/K) on order and just picked up D3 yesterday since the depression seems to onset with the seasons and lower levels of it are produced due to the fewer hrs of sun rays. I like the idea of fish oil. I think it is probably wise for me to get some sort of herbal liver/kidney support supplement because of the Lithium even if it is at a miniscule dose. Would that be the Bupleurum? I'd have gone with the Chinese formula if I hadn't already purchased the Cell Membrane Complex...they both have the Ca/Mg/K, though, through different mechanisms of delivery.
For liver support you'd want to go with something like Milk Thistle. The CM concept of Liver goes beyond the actual liver organ as we understand it. One idea is that when the Liver is not functioning well according to CM, all those stress hormones are not being properly metabolized.
The formula I mentioned does much more than provide Ca/Mg. While that is probably one of its mechanisms of action, it will also try to normalize many physiological systems according to its indications. The real trick is identifying your personal imbalance and finding a formula that matches. Maybe just tuck that thought away for later.
> I think I will go ahead and make an appointment with a psychiatrist in the next couple weeks though, and I'll just flat out tell them I am not comfortable/interested in taking certain groups of drugs and see what happens. I did find a couple of OD's who specialize in psychiatry.
I think that is a good idea. Can you tell me why you are not comfortable with certain groups of drugs? I know there are a lot of horror-stories out there about side-effects and possible ill effects over time, but the web tends to over-represent people's negative reaction and minimizes the success stories.
> Hombre, what is your "cocktail" of supplements/Rx etc, if you don't mind my asking? Is it working for you? How long did it take for you to figure out...or is this a constant ever-changing ebb and flow with the unpredictability of life?
I take effexor 150mg, remeron 30mg and seroquel 100mg. These got me out of the hole and sleeping at night.
As for supplements, I take 1 x NOW Adam, 1-3 x Vit C 1000mg, 1 x Jarrow Fish Oil, Magnesium Glycinate and Citrate (~6-800 mg), 50mg Zinc Picolinate, sometimes Jarrow B-right.
Herbs: Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan (Ginseng and Astragalus Combination) and Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan (Kidney Yang formula), and I've started taking Rhodiola rosea extract 500mg. The herbs help me with the side-effects I get from the meds and strengthen my body so I it can create energy naturally. I have no weight gain other than what happens if I eat too much and move too little.
Before I got on meds I tried taking supplements with little to no effect. I suffered like this for almost a year, although I wish I'd tried high dose niacin (2-3g), magnesium and especially the chinese herbs.
It took me over 6 months to find the current med cocktail. Another few months to figure out the herbs. The vitamins and minerals support the actions of the meds and help with energy and calming. Again, the supplements did little before the meds - I even took tyrosine and 5-htp for many months, but it really didn't do much for me. YMMV.
I am currently in remission and am more functional and happy than I've been in decades. I am very careful with my diet and I work out religiously. Those elements are at least as important as the meds.
I urge you to try not to create any limits or barriers in your mind about what might be able to help you. I suffered a terrible depressive/anxiety filled hell for months because I thought meds were limited and I was more OK than I really was. Once I got over that prejudice and completely accepted the idea that I could not figure it all out myself, I began the road that led to my current state of recovery. I went by the book with my psyche doc and followed the standard algorithms. I was 100% compliant with taking the meds, even when they didn't seem to be working. It seems like only now that I'm well I can look back and see that I was so sick for so long, even long ago when I was still relatively functional.
In any case, good luck to you and I hope you find what you need to get well.
Posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 24, 2010, at 1:24:32
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this, posted by Hombre on September 23, 2010, at 18:58:59
"For liver support you'd want to go with something like Milk Thistle. The CM concept of Liver goes beyond the actual liver organ as we understand it. One idea is that when the Liver is not functioning well according to CM, all those stress hormones are not being properly metabolized." makes sense, liver and kidneys work hard to rid toxins and filter the blood...life essence.
"The formula I mentioned does much more than provide Ca/Mg. While that is probably one of its mechanisms of action, it will also try to normalize many physiological systems according to its indications. The real trick is identifying your personal imbalance and finding a formula that matches. Maybe just tuck that thought away for later."
yes, absolutely...going to a psychiatrist will hopefully be exceedingly helpful in disecting just what imbalances I have, which will help me decide other adjunct therapies.How did you go about trying different supps/herbs/meds...how long would you try one before deciding to can it and try something else in its place? how many things would you take at a time? One note wrong in a chord turns harmony into cacophony.
Tai Qi or QiGong would probably be a good thing to get into. I'll have to pull out a few of my old books that talked about applying 5-element theory to method of treating horses. What books/resources did you find helpful in learning about TCM and herbs?
Hombre, thank you! I'd hug you if I could...yours was the post I needed. That's just it, I can "act" okay and appear normal...but my life/emotional health is truly dysfunctional. I swing between any number of these emotions ALL the time anxiety/depression/feeling great/feeling motivated and able to conquer everything/barely being able to get out of bed/engaging and genuine/listless, dull, unsocial/bubbly and friendly/irritable and moody...I've made Insanely impulsive decisions/purchases that seemed fine at the time, but have seriously put me on the path to financial ruin. (we're talking major purchases here...horses...I had 8 as of this time last year, finally down to 4, soon to be 2) Not getting to bed at a decent hour...I haven't been to sleep before 2-3 AM for a few years now...and I am up at 7:30-8 AM.
I did mention to my closest friend that I think I need to see a psychiatrist about all this, and she says I'm just ADD and has a counter thought for each "symptom". Almost as if admitting that I am mentally unsound means that she must re-evaluate her own psyche; afraid what might be behind those walls, perhaps. Same with my sister...and I am just about positive that she too is bipolar...she just doesn't want to label it and face it straight on...this runs deep on my mother's side of the fammily. It is no surprise to me.
In hindsight, it is probably a good thing that I did have a major depressive episode last winter, cause I would never have looked at this further. I would have just assumed that life is always hard and a struggle to find balance, and that it is nearly impossible to be truly satisfied and happy.
Anyhow, thanks again for your valuable info, encouragement and support. I will try to be more openminded about medication recommendations, and really learn the method behind the maddness before jumping to conclusions. I am quite definitely motivated to work towards being well and functional...cause where I'm at now, this can be pure hell at times.
Posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 24, 2010, at 23:30:26
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this » Hombre, posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 24, 2010, at 1:24:32
Hombre...not sure how helpful this is...but maybe it will give more insight into the direction I should go with regard to trying specific TCM tonics or herbs...warnign...it's long (sorry!)
I have done some thinking and writing to gain a little more clarity into the exact emotions/feelings/thoughts/physical symptoms
-lack of sleep
-little motivation/drive to finish what I have started
-fatigued like some one hooked me up to a machine and zapped all the energy out of me-I have noticed a tendency lately...I have been zoning out. I'll be reading something and all of a sudden I realize that it is 5 min later, and I don't know where it went I'm still at the same point before the 5 min lapse
-this might sounds strange...my mind feels 'full' as if everything is packed in envelopes...but so packed that it can be hard to articulate especially verbally...not nearly so much with writing. I get jokes and love humor, but I have never been the whitty type to come up with my own lines. I live inside of my head a lot.
-tend more towards depression than mania (I think?), stuck and self-depricating...it feels heavy and stagnant
-depression is very much environmental dependent...ie: I visited for a few days with a friend who lives directly on the water, house is comfortable and has good vibe to it...I felt fantastic...got home and was greeted home with brown grass(drought) and more stressful environment and that sent me plummeting (reactive)
-anxiety if I get stuck on a paticular thought pattern especially where money is concerned
-if I feel uncomfortable with the way I am dressed...I will fidget endlessly and get extremely self-concious (ie, a gorgeous dress I had purchased last winter was slightly too big now, that sent me into a strange panic, I changed and the feeling was gone)
-lately having fits of social anxiety which is no bueno when you are in sales! or self-employed (I'm doing both) could use more self-assurance and confidence
-when I am engaged in a particular topic of interest, I will study or focus on that one thing endlessly...my biggest one for the past 3-4 years is studying bloodlines of show jumper sporthorses (I have bred 2 of my own)...I have literally stayed in one spot at my computer for 48 hrs at a time straight researching
-severe mood swings during PMS...not usually depression, though v. irritable/reactive emotionally and often my mind races.
-impulsive purchases (ie the horses and breeding them) or gourmet food/wine, or home furnishings when I don't have the budget for it...or like last weekend it was paint and I spent 3 night up in a row until 6 AM
physical/familial attributes:
-thin
-poor circulation to lower limbs/feet
-naturally a morning person (though not so much now due to lack of sleep)
-prone to acne (though, interestingly, it is very symetrical. if I have a blemish on left it's often in a very similar place on the right side as well)
-sensitive/reactive skin (redness/heat)
-history of heart disease both sides of the family
-Mother's side of the family prone to obesity/diabetes (Dad's side of family was not obese)
-family history of bipolar and depression on my mother's side
-strong will to be independent/entreprenuerial
-not often sick or susceptible to sickness
-never tried any drugs and do not depend on alcohol (my sister has an addictive disorder and I am fairly certain that she is bipolar)
-Mom is on Lexapro and Ambien has type 2 diabetes, moderately overweight, and hypochondriac
-Dad's side of the family was sane...he was a quiet eccentric/genius (physical chemist), slender, smoked, very fit and active, had heart disease (actually had a heart attack at one pt and never knew it until he took a stress test 10 yrs later...thank goodness he was so active and healthy)I eat healthy, avoid sugar/simple carbs/corn/potatoes/some soy/overly processed foods/dairy as much as I can. Eat a lot of blue/purple/red fruits. Chia seeds. Could use more fish and leafy greens probably
I must, must start doing more physical exercise, I'm lucky, I look fit...but I am not anywhere close to fit.
Eeps! Sorry for writing a book!! Does this help?
Posted by Hombre on September 25, 2010, at 3:16:07
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this, posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 24, 2010, at 23:30:26
BetweenDreams81,
I hope you will consider seeing a trained TCM doctor who specalizes in herbs. I am only an amateur and can only speak from my personal experience. I would hate to recommend something and have it backfire on you. On the other hand, I've found herbs to be pretty mild and I've shared them with friends with no ill effects. If anything, it isn't the right formula and it does nothing. Or they don't take it regularly enough to see a change. I do have some personal experience helping someone with PMS/PMDD. She has a terrible week before her period where she becomes extremely fatigued, depressed, and has obsessive negative thinking.
Again, take all of this as opinion, but the things I say I have a pretty good grasp on at this point. I'm still open to learning more, of course:
My general idea about getting energy back revolves around the Spleen concept - digestive function. Although I've taken nutrition courses and know all about carbs/fat/protein and energy metabolism, there is more to it than that. I also have taken classes in exercise physiology and know about the Kreb's cycle and whatnot. Again, there is more to it than that if you are not healthy.
If your Spleen is fine, you can eat with a lot of leeway and your energy is OK. If it is not healthy, well you'll get a bunch of weird symptoms.
The Spleen in TCM is associated with digestive function, metabolism, controlling dampness/bloating, producing Blood, and controlling blood sugar levels. On the mental/emotional side, a healthy spleen is associated with learning and memory. When weak, one will tend to have obsessive thinking, worrying, and problems with memory. The metaphor is that when you learn, you also have to digest, process and absorb.
The spleen is also associated with the flesh and muscles. When the spleen is weak, you will lose muscle mass and you'll feel physically weak. The lack of blood production means you'll just feel anemic and tired. You may also have headaches, loose, watery stools, bloating, and/or alternating constipation and diarrhea.
The spleen like to stay 'dry'. Eating to many raw fruits and vegetables, junk food, grease, and physically cold foods and beverages will weaken the spleen. When the spleen develops 'dampness', you'll get bloating and indigestion. You'll tend to feel sluggish and thick.
The Spleen likes sweet things (not candy or pop). Sweet potato, Chinese red dates, rice porridge - these are some foods that help tone the spleen. Please google for more dietary advice.
Overwork and overstudying/thinking are what can injure the spleen, not to mention a bad diet. I have sort of a theory that obsessive worrying about food and weight are related to the spleen both physically (poor diet) and mentally (obsessing). I know what it is like to worry a little too much about body image and food, but probably not as much as someone with a bonified eating disorder. I mean no disrepect to those who suffer from that.
Treating the spleen involves some of the most classical formulas in Chinese medicine. The most basic formula is Si Jun Zi Tang (Four Gentlemen Decoction). It contains four herbs and serves as the basis for almost any formula that treats the spleen.
It contains: ginseng or codonopsis (a milder substitute), White atractylodes, poria and fried licorice root. These herbs tonify the spleen and qi and remove dampness.
This formula is available as pills, known as "wan", so the name to search for is "si jun zi wan". Googling Four Gentlemen Decoction will work too.
Another formula especially recommended for the ladies is Ba Zhen Tang/Eight Treasures Decoction (not sure about the translation, but it has 8 herbs). It helps blood by tonifying the spleen. It is based on Four Gentlement but adds some more blood building/nourishing goodies. I've made this formula out of raw herbs for my friend and it did seem to help. As pills, it is called Ba Zhen Wan. Very common. Take it up until you actually start your flow, then lay off for a week. It is a good all-around tonic and can be taken for long periods of time.
Anxiety and fear are symptoms of a kidney weakness. You will also feel extremely fatigued if your kidneys are weak. The kidneys are the most important system (I say system because we are not talking about just the anatomical kidneys) in CM theory. They are the root of your body's energy and any illness will affect them in some way.
The positive emotions associated with the kidneys are courage and willpower. This probably relates to not being able to follow-through on ideas and projects.
If you tend toward feeling hot at night, sweating a lot, having poor sleep and fatigue, feeling sort of jittery and anxious, you may have a deficiency of kidney yin.
If you tend to feel cold, apathetic, sit still for long period, don't feel like initiating actions or talking much, you probably have deficient Yang. That's what I have, and I take herbs for that.
The formula I use is called Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan. Kidney pills from the Golden Cabinet (I think a reference to some medical book or trusty stash of proven meds). It basically nourishes the kidneys and warms them up.
If the warming herbs are taken out of this formula, it is called Liu Wei Di Huang Wan, or Six Flavor Rehmannia Pills. That one is more for kidney yin deficiency. I've taken it when I think I've weakened kidney yin and developed back spasms in the lower back. Other than that, the kidney Yang formula above serves me better on a day to day basis. Another sign of weakened kidney Yang is trouble urinating or maybe urinating to often (or is that kidney yin? so complicated.)
Depression and irritability will involve the liver, and the liver is closely related to the kidneys and also the spleen. The flagship formula for depression is Xiao Yao Wan, which has bupleurum, but that formula hasn't done much for me personally and I don't have a firm grasp on what liver stagnation feels like, maybe a heavy, sinking feeling in the chest or a lump in the throat. The best thing for this is to exercise and to find an outlet for creative expression. When you get angry and frustrated, it can easily cause liver stagnation. Liver stagnation can cause a build-up of heat that can flare up and cause outbursts of anger or headaches. Heat can also cause skin eruptions and rashes.
Phew. I hope that makes sense. Cross-reference online (acupuncture.com, http://www.shen-nong.com/, and itmonline.com are good). It takes a while to get used to the ideas and to be honest I doubt most people can gain an understanding without also doing so qigong or meditation. I do recommend that as well, granted you can find a qualified teacher. Without a good teacher, you'll at least be moving a bit, but not getting the benefit of tai chi training OR vigorous exercise. And as you probably know, aerobic exercise is proven to fight depression and anxiety. The hard part is doing it and doing it regularly.
Best of luck.
Posted by former poster on September 25, 2010, at 22:34:14
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this » former poster, posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 23, 2010, at 11:04:57
>That's a bummer. What is working for you? How long did you try the orotate? How much were you taking?
Mine should come in the mail today or tomorrow.<I tried lithium carbonate back in the 80's for 3 weeks and hated it immensely. I had forgotten how much I hated it and why, but when I tried Li Orotate I remembered why I hated it so much. Honestly, if Lithium is the cure, I'd rather have the disease. Sorry for the slow reply.
Posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 27, 2010, at 20:34:07
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this » BetweenDreams81, posted by Hombre on September 25, 2010, at 3:16:07
Hombre, wow, you certainly do put a lot of time, thought and care into your responses! I really appreciate it, and enjoy reading and learning from your posts...I've printed them all off to make a reference book from them ;o)
I am definitely interested in seeing a good TCM practitioner, I like the holistic approach to health and wellness, and I'm more comfortable with Eastern med theory vs. Western med (though not against it, just think their priorities are a bit screwy) Anyhow, that said, even though you say you are an amatuer, your knowledge and comments make me source and research and learn more about these things and gives a very solid starting frame of reference. Reading through your description of kidney deficiencies...I think I need more kidney yang...def feel a bit slow/sluggish not as mentally sharp as I could be, haven't been as interested in social activity etc. Plus just started LiOr yesterday, and want to make sure that my kidneys are being nourished to function as optimally as possible. With respect to spleen, it is also likely sl weak...again, mental acuity; feeling like I am not retaining information or absorbing it. Liver sounds about right too.
Question is, is it okay to take 3 CM blends together at the same time?Luckily a very good friend of mine is in the process of getting her PhD in qigong, and while she doesn't live nearby, we'll both be in FL at the same time this winter...so maybe I'll ge tthe chance to learn/absorb/experience
Thank you again for your thoughtful response, it gives hope!
Posted by bulldog2 on September 28, 2010, at 10:40:09
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this » Hombre, posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 27, 2010, at 20:34:07
> Hombre, wow, you certainly do put a lot of time, thought and care into your responses! I really appreciate it, and enjoy reading and learning from your posts...I've printed them all off to make a reference book from them ;o)
>
> I am definitely interested in seeing a good TCM practitioner, I like the holistic approach to health and wellness, and I'm more comfortable with Eastern med theory vs. Western med (though not against it, just think their priorities are a bit screwy) Anyhow, that said, even though you say you are an amatuer, your knowledge and comments make me source and research and learn more about these things and gives a very solid starting frame of reference. Reading through your description of kidney deficiencies...I think I need more kidney yang...def feel a bit slow/sluggish not as mentally sharp as I could be, haven't been as interested in social activity etc. Plus just started LiOr yesterday, and want to make sure that my kidneys are being nourished to function as optimally as possible. With respect to spleen, it is also likely sl weak...again, mental acuity; feeling like I am not retaining information or absorbing it. Liver sounds about right too.
>
>
> Question is, is it okay to take 3 CM blends together at the same time?
>
> Luckily a very good friend of mine is in the process of getting her PhD in qigong, and while she doesn't live nearby, we'll both be in FL at the same time this winter...so maybe I'll ge tthe chance to learn/absorb/experience
>
> Thank you again for your thoughtful response, it gives hope!
>
>
>unforunately the entire ying yang philosophy may just not be backed by any solid science. You may find that the results are disappointing. Many in the East are now turning to western medicine. There must be a reason for that. Unforunately many of these myths were created before the advent of the scientific method.
I was macrobiotic at one time and after a while I realized I did not feel better. There were many claims made without any substance. Later I was horrified to find out that the founder and some family members had died of cancer.
Yes I remember how soothing the whole ying yang thing made me feel. But in my two years with the macrobiotic movement I did not see healthier people.Look eat well. Cut down on animal products and animal fat. Get lots of omega 3 based oils. Eat plenty of dark green vegatables. Do eat lean animal protein. If possible organic. That's about the best you can do. But don't waste your time on this whole ying yang thing. I'm to ying I need more yang and vice versa.
Don't deny yourself access to the appropriate meds. There must be a reason people in the far east are now also practicing western medicine. Obviously their whole peasant system of medicine was not working for many of their people.
Posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 28, 2010, at 16:16:37
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this, posted by bulldog2 on September 28, 2010, at 10:40:09
Well, I don't think you can just discount 1000's of years of medical theory in one fell swoop! There are a lot of pluses and minuses on both ends of the spectrum, and what I am attempting to do for myself is to build a 3-pronged support so that I can become well and stable and feel balanced on all levels possible. I certainly am not negating the effectiveness and necessity for prescription drugs (and should have a ref to a pdoc in the next day or two)...I just have a hard time with most doctors pushing too many pills too fast without taking a good thorough look at the entire wellness of their patients. To me anyway, one who is more in tune with both body and mind will have a higher success rate than those who pop a few pills, and expect magic, no work involved.
This is where focused mind-body awareness through meditation/qigong/tai chi...etc come in. as well as exercise. Mostly to balance and center physical/mental being together...and it helps to keep the body energetically functioning...fitness, however you want to describe it.
The third prong approach at this is nourishment and helping to keep my interal organs at their peak so that they can function even with the added stress of synthetics that enter the body as drugs...synthetics may be effective in giving positive results, but they do stress out the body in in one form or other...making one or more systems work harder than they normally do. That is where eating a healthy diet, herbals, TCM, and other various vitamins/supplements come in.
As far as macrobiotic diets go, I don't think one can draw equivalence to TCM. It's founders may have a few roots to some TCM terms/theory, but it certainly does not encompass the whole base of TCM. Something to also remember is that just because there is more and more Western med practiced in the East does not mean that Eastern med is without merit, or that it doesn't work. I think it is safe to say that the recent (within past 20 years) influx of Western influence on their medicine/theology/trade/culture has more to do with this than Eastern medicine "not working". But that's a topic for a different day! lol
Perhaps this is all 'just' something that makes me/others feel better and more comfortable in accepting a reality, but if it is I am okay with that if it leads to a more stable/balanced and healthy life. We all are walking our own paths toward success and wellness, and it is many different things to each of us...and that is why I am here. Thank you for your input!! ;o)
Please excuse me if this is a dual post...my new message didn't show up so I had to re-write it. Thx!
Posted by Hombre on September 28, 2010, at 20:55:12
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this » bulldog2, posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 28, 2010, at 16:16:37
Yin/Yang theory is no more mysterious than positive/negative, day/night, sympathetic/parasympathetic. Almost all of the body's processes are regulated by pairs of hormones, neurotransmitters, ions and other factors e.g. insulin and glucagon. This is how the body tries to bring itself into balance. When some of these balances are off, you will feel ill.
Are we clear on that, now? I don't know what you think yin/yang represent, but has nothing to do with soothing a person or making him feel good for believing in it, unless he's the type of person that feels good believing in physics.
Also, macrobiotics =/= Chinese medicine. You see, not everything that is "Oriental" is the same. Macrobiotics represents a rather unbalanced way of eating. Chinese medicine is not vegetarianism nor does it recommend any particular diet. Since each person has a different constitution, state of digestive health, and needs, her diet needs to fit those needs. I would imagine that people eating macrobiotically without thinking about their needs might get ill. And frankly, anyone that latches onto some extreme form of diet or health practice has some other issues to address.
I like bulldog's dietary advice, but there are plenty of people that eat well but for various reasons are not absorbing and assimilating nutrients into their body. Maybe their gall bladders are not working well. Maybe their pancreas is not working well. Ever heard of diabetes? That has to do with blood sugar not being regulated well and that can cause problems even if you eat well. Chinese medicine looks at digestive function as a whole and how it involves every organ. If you can improve the functioning of the digestive organs, you will have more energy and will have healthy, lean tissue.
Chinese medicine is not working on a different body, but it works on patterns and connections that are only starting to be discovered by Western medicine. When you only study things in isolation, you tend to miss the big picture.
They use Western medicine in China because obviously it works for some things. Trauma and situations requiring surgery come to mind. But chronic diseases? What kills more people? Diseases of lifestyle. Heart disease, CV disease, diabetes...and so on. And the reason that Chinese medicine is even not well understood in Chinese has a lot to do with China's political history, including the Cultural Revolution. A lot of skilled doctors fled or were not allowed to teach. Those allowed to teach were often chosen by The Party. Their disciples were also chose by The Party and may not have even really studied under real teachers before receiving their certification. The history is pretty interesting, but unfortunately it has added to the confusion and has weakened Chinese medicine overall. But the information is still valid, having been tested over many centuries, and there are still some people that know how to use it.
There are plenty of quack MDs, psychiatrists, and other Western specialists. How many psychiatrists has the average p-babbler seen? How many mediations have been tried? Is the process of choosing medications any more certain than crafting an herbal formula? Or is it even more of a game of roulette?
Also, no one is telling anyone to deny themselves any sort of treatment. Maybe in your mind you feel you have to choose "sides", but the progressive thing to do would be to not get caught up in one's own prejudices and cultural intolerance and to take an honest look at what's out there and what can actually help. To judge things without really knowing what they are about, well that'd be denying yourself of options. Apparently it is the norm to do this, which is why there is little information on the concurrent use of psyche meds and Chinese herbs. So let's start solving that problem by carefully exploring and sharing our thoughts.
Posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 29, 2010, at 9:09:25
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this, posted by Hombre on September 28, 2010, at 20:55:12
I've been reading up a bit on kidney and mingmen...it really is fascinating...and makes a lot of sense. Would it be best to start there first? Take a TCM formula for kidney, see how that goes for a while to see if other systems balance out? Or choose another to balance, say spleen, to help the process along?
Posted by bulldog2 on September 29, 2010, at 15:20:32
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this » Hombre, posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 29, 2010, at 9:09:25
> I've been reading up a bit on kidney and mingmen...it really is fascinating...and makes a lot of sense. Would it be best to start there first? Take a TCM formula for kidney, see how that goes for a while to see if other systems balance out? Or choose another to balance, say spleen, to help the process along?
>
>The macrobiotics people always said to eat in tune to your environment. So the foods or herbs of the far east may not be right here.
Therefore you might want to see how native Americans ate and what herbs they used. Or even how the early settlers ate and what herbs they used.
Yes food and herbs are indeed powerful medicine. So that certainly is a good base to build a healthy body and mind. But with all that said these early people did get sick and die. So at a certain point know when you might need meds even though we don't like them. Who does? Just learn to recognize when the natural approach isn't working. There are those that will tell you to not give in and use allopathic meds. Merge the best of both worlds.
Posted by BetweenDreams81 on September 29, 2010, at 16:14:01
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate for depression? Anyone using this, posted by bulldog2 on September 29, 2010, at 15:20:32
Hi bulldog2, there is definitely a possible link between local environment and the health of its people. And the idea of eating according to the season/locale is not a new idea for sure...personally, I scribe to no diet in particular except to eat a healthy one, much of what you had already outlined before is slready the mainstay of my current diet.
With regard to Native American practices I have studied some about Native American philosophy, not very recently though. It's a beautiful culture. Their medicine practices are quite different and more or less ritualistic often performed by a medicine man/woman...it has a component of energy and spirit healing along with it. Sure that goes into an entirely different realm with many more variabilities and unknowns. I certainly could never reproduce the results of an experienced medicine woman on my own, that I know. Aside from which, even if there was a powerful medicine woman inside of me, their pactices are FAR less documented than TCM. ;o)
..."Early settlers and Native Americans got sick and died even though they took herbs and used natural meds"...well, that was then, this is now. Instead of being plagued with small pox/influenza/Bubonic fever and various other pandemic diseases, we have diabetes/heart disease/cancer. And well, ya know what...we're all gonna die some day. Who knows what from or when, but someday.
Did you read my earlier post? There must be a missed connection. I'm not denying myself meds, I have full intent to see a pdoc (I have to wait for an opening), and am open to prescription drugs if that is what is recommended...leary...but open. No one here has said to "not" use Rx meds...if anything the opposite. As stated before, I am looking at the whole picture and trying to build a multi-branched approach to become as healthy as possible on all levels.
This is the end of the thread.
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