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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Marty on October 28, 2007, at 13:00:06
Tryptophan or 5-HTP ?
What would be your Arguments and Experiences with them ?
Marty
Posted by bleauberry on October 28, 2007, at 16:56:49
In reply to PB Big brains-) Tryptophan or 5-HTP ? F google :P, posted by Marty on October 28, 2007, at 13:00:06
> Tryptophan or 5-HTP ?
>
> What would be your Arguments and Experiences with them ?
>
> MartyFor either, it depends on if you have low serotonin to begin with. They are a good test to find out. If you have low serotonin, you should feel them in a way you like very quickly.
Tryptophan or 5htp preference will vary from person to person. One will work better for some but not others. Trial and error.
Tryptophan will not work well if there is some biochemical roadblock in its conversion process. Tryptophan has to first convert to 5htp before it converts to serotonin. It also converts to many other things besides serotonin, and depending on biochemical factors very little of it may actually end up being serotonin. Varies from person to person. Common roadblocks to proper conversion are vitamin status, heavy metals (I personally suspect this is a hugely overlooked factor in psychiatry), and genetic defects. Also, too many proteins will interfere. There are limited seats on the bus to cross the brain barrier, and tryptophan is crowded out by other proteins. For maximum entry in the brain and maximum conversion, you want to take tryptophan between meals and take it with sugars or carbs which will speed it across the brain barrier and help win the fight against competing proteins. Orange juice is a good busride for tryptophan.
5htp will cross the brain barrier readily regardless of any roadblocks. It will convert directly to serotonin. Most people recommend taking it with B vitamins and C. In my own experience, that will convert much of it to serotonin in the body before it ever gets in the brain. Serotonin in the body cannot cross the brain barrier where it is needed. Get 5htp in the brain by avoiding vitamins for at least 6 hours before 5htp dosing. 5htp does need vitamins to convert to serotonin, but there are plenty in food additives and normal diets to do that. I get serious sexual side effects worse than any drugs when I take 5htp with vitamins, but no side effects at all when I take it by itself, showing me that vitamins do indeed convert 5htp to serotonin in the body before it gets to the brain, and there is little left to get in the brain.
How long do either tryptophan or 5htp last? That can make treatment tricky. One person takes a low dose once every two days. Another needs it once every 6 hours. One person does better with it at night. Another better in the daytime.
Serotonin converts to melatonin, which causes sleepiness and is also very depressing to a lot of people. If your genetics convert too much serotonin to melatonin, it won't feel good. A better balance might be to take a low dose of trypt or 5htp, and then keep the serotonin at work longer with a low dose of st johns wort or low dose ssri drug.
5htp or tryptophan? Just depends on a lot of things. Trial and error is the only way to find out.
Dosing. Most naturopaths recommend 5htp 200mg to 300mg a day. Tryptophan 1000mg to 6000mg a day. Those to me are huge massive doses. But one guy does best at 5htp 400mg (4000mg tryptophan equivilant if converted properly). Me, I find 12.5mg to 25mg is just about right for a great sleep. 50mg is a bit much and leaves me dull and tired all the next day. 3 days at 50mg a day makes me more depressed than I started.
Either 5htp or tryptophan have huge potential. If not quite right by themselves, they can be respectfully combined with low doses of serotonin reuptake inhibiting drugs or herbs. Regardless of how much serotonin we make, maybe our biochemistries just chew it up faster than we can make it. Or maybe no matter how much reuptake inhibition we provide, there just isn't enough serotonin to begin with for any therapeutic level of reuptake inhibition to take place.
Trial and error. Hope this info will help guide you along the journey. Not sure how daring or cautious you are, but me, I started with 12.5mg 5htp and worked up after that. I tried tryptophan at 250mg, worked up to 1000mg, and felt lousy the whole time. Others love it. Only one way to find out.
Posted by Jimmyboy on October 28, 2007, at 19:09:04
In reply to Re: PB Big brains-) Tryptophan or 5-HTP ? F google :P, posted by bleauberry on October 28, 2007, at 16:56:49
Don;t people in Europe take cardopa when the take 5-htp as opposed to tryptophan. I remember reading this that 5-htp can convert to serotonin in your blood alot easier , thus possibly causing problems, whereas tryptophan was more likely to make it to the brain to work ( unless , of course , like blueberry said , there are vitamin deficiency, heavy metal problem, allergies, or whatever blocking the conversion) .
Anyway, I can;t site this info right now, but I did read that , so if anyone knows if its true or false , feel free to chime in : )
JB
Posted by Jimmyboy on October 28, 2007, at 20:00:58
In reply to Re: PB Big brains-) Tryptophan or 5-HTP ? F google :P, posted by Jimmyboy on October 28, 2007, at 19:09:04
Found the info I was trying to remember ..
A Word of Caution About
5-Hydroxytryptophan or 5-HTPTaken from the Life Extension Foundation newsletter
"The reasons for the potential risks of 5-HT were brought to our attention by Steven B Harris, M.D. He explained that: 5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HT) is one step closer to serotonin than tryptophan. The sequence is as follows.
Tryptophan > 5-Hydroxytryptophan > Serotonin
Based on the above metabolic sequence it would appear desirable to use 5-HT instead of tryptophan since 5-HT more readily converts to serotonin. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that is often deficient in the brains of depressed people. Boosting serotonin can alleviate depression in some people and reduce carbohydrate cravings in others, thus inducing weight loss.
Here's why 5-HT will not work for most Americans, and could be lethal to some people: The blood-brain barrier does not allow significant absorption of serotonin from the blood. The brain does have a large neutral amino acid pump that freely allows tryptophan and 5-HT into the brain for conversion into serotonin. The process by which 5-H is converted into serotonin is called decarboxylation. If decarboxylation occurs before 5-HT is absorbed by the brain, than blood levels of serotonin will elevate significantly, but very little serotonin will enter the brain.
When Europeans take 5-HT, they are often prescribed the dopa decarboxylase inhibitor carbidopa that prevents 5-HT from being converted into serotonin until it reaches the brain. Americans do not take carbidopa with 5-HT and the result is possible serotonin overload in the blood, with virtually no serotonin reaching the brain. We will describe later the dangers of overloading the blood with serotonin. Americans taking 5-HT are more vulnerable to blood serotonin overload because, unlike most Europeans who are vitamin deficient, Americans who use 5-HT usually take large doses of vitamin B6 as well. Vitamin B6 rapidly converts 5-HT into serotonin before it can reach the brain. Even when combined with carbidopa, high levels of vitamin B6 will break through the carbidopa barrier and insure that 5-HT converts into serotonin in the blood before the it can reach the brain.
The multiple health benefits of vitamin B6 are too important, we believe, to recommend that people avoid taking vitamin B6 just to enable them to try using 5-HT to boost brain serotonin levels. This may be difficult anyway without also taking carbidopa, which is available in the US only as a prescription drug. At the very best, those who take vitamin B6 with 5-HT are probably wasting their money. Unfortunately, high serotonin in the blood in not benign. Anyone suffering from heart disease should avoid 5-HT because the elevation in blood serotonin could cause coronary artery spasm an/or abnormal platelet aggregation, which are risk factors for sudden death heart attack.
Here is the real frightening aspect of serotonin overload, as described by Dr. Harris: "Serotonin causes not only harmless flushing and diarrhea, but people with serotonin secreting tumors (hindgut carcinoids) also have problems with fibrosis of the endocardium and valves of their right hearts with can cause heart failure. The effect can also be seen with dietary intake of only modest amounts of serotonin, and there has actually been described in the medical literature, a tribe of South Sea islanders with right heart fibrosis as a result of eating green banana mush, which poisons them with its serotonin content" Dr. Harris goes on to state that people who ingest several hundred milligrams a day of 5-HT with B6 and without a decarboxylase inhibitor would expect to see urinary excretion of a serotonin metabolite in the same range as a person with a serotonin secreting tumor.
Based upon Dr. Harris' report the Foundation had its analysts conduct an extensive review of the medical literature and have come to the following preliminary conclusions:
1) For 5-HT to boost serotonin levels in the brain it is necessary to: a)Take 50 mg of carbidopa before each 5-HT dose. Carbidopa is a prescription drug. b)Limit vitamin B6 supplementation to a small dose taken at least six hours before or after 5-HT carbidopa dosing. c) Have a urinary test to measure a metabolite of serotonin called 5-hydroxy indoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) on a regular basis. As long as 5-HIAA levels are normal, than 5-HT intake would be safe.
2) Those with existing cardiovascular disease, including atrial fibrillation, coronary artery disease, congestive heart failure, cardiomyopathy, valvular disease or pulmonary hypertension may want to avoid 5-HT completely. One Foundation analyst felt that 81 mg a day of aspirin and 500 mg a day of magnesium would reduce the risk of 5-HT inducing a heart attack.
3)The effects of 5-HT by itself elevating blood serotonin levels are extremely individualistic. Some people may not experience any blood serotonin increase, while others could suffer from a lethal serotonin peripheral overload.
4) Despite the potential dangers of 5-HT, most FDA-approved drugs to treat depression and obesity appear to be more toxic.
5) At the time of this printing, we have not been able to verify whether 5-HT induced serotonin overload would cause fibrosis of the aortic valve and destruction of the heart muscle. Based on the potential health risks of ingesting 5-HIT, Bio Recovery has decided not to offer it tat this time. we encourage anyone seeking to use 5-HT to follow strictly the above protocol for safe 5-HT supplementation. We'll post further evidence regarding 5-HTP as soon as it becomes available. This warning applies only to 5-hydroxy tryptophan (5-HT), not tryptophan itself. Published studies show that tryptophan does not readily convert into serotonin in the blood, but that 5-HT does, since 5-HT can convert directly into serotonin while tryptophan has to go through one additional metabolic step which protects against blood serotonin overload"
Sorry- kind of long, but may be useful
JB
Posted by Marty on October 29, 2007, at 11:22:05
In reply to Re: PB Big brains-) Tryptophan or 5-HTP ? F google :P, posted by bleauberry on October 28, 2007, at 16:56:49
Thanks for your anwser! Hope you didn't put too much time into it .. any PayPal account ? joking ;)
Very interesting and complete.
> I get serious sexual side effects worse than any drugs when I take 5htp with vitamins, but no side effects at all when I take it by itself, showing me that vitamins do indeed convert 5htp to serotonin in the body before it gets to the brain, and there is little left to get in the brain.
-- Really ? So you think SSE is caused by high level of 5-HT in the body ? any medical literature to back that up ? Those bad SSE's are the main reason I can't stand SSRI's anymore. Is there any form of Serotonin Re-uptake in the body ? if not, how does the SSRI could gives SSE's ?
> How long do either tryptophan or 5htp last? That can make treatment tricky. One person takes a low dose once every two days. Another needs it once every 6 hours. One person does better with it at night. Another better in the daytime.
-- I heard the brain 'stocks' Serotonin while sleeping... do you know if it's true ?
> Serotonin converts to melatonin, which causes sleepiness and is also very depressing to a lot of people.
-- Melatonin made me depressed. It's SAD (no pun intented) because I'm sensible too falls and winter. Anyway.. My guess is that I have enough of that Melatonin in my CNS.> If your genetics convert too much serotonin to melatonin, it won't feel good. A better balance might be to take a low dose of trypt or 5htp, and then keep the serotonin at work longer with a low dose of st johns wort or low dose ssri drug.
-- St Johns wort + Tryp or 5-HTP isn't dangerous at all ? I may as well try that. But St-johns wort makes me feels weird after 3 or 4 months.. so I would need to take a break from it 2 or 3 times a years. BTW, is SJW really a MAOI's ? I think I heard that once.> Not sure how daring or cautious you are.
Well.. more daring than cautious. Eating at chinese buffets while being on high dose (MAOI's) Parnate and Nardil was once a sport for me :S .. let's just say the chinese cookie wasn't the most exciting part of the lunch :PSeriously, I think I'll try St-John with 5-HTP.. anything important I should know when I'll do that ?
Currently on Lamictal 50mg, Lyrica 150mg BID, Clonazepam .125mg. 50mg 5-HTP and some Evening Primrose Oil.
Possible Bipolarity II, episodal Generalized Social Phobia, Generalized anxiety disorder.
Thanks again,
Marty
Posted by Marty on October 29, 2007, at 13:07:51
In reply to Re: PB Big brains-) Tryptophan or 5-HTP ? F google :P, posted by Jimmyboy on October 28, 2007, at 19:09:04
> Don;t people in Europe take cardopa when the take 5-htp as opposed to tryptophan.
--
Cardopa ? only ~350 page on google talks about it. Mispelled or very uncommon ? (taboo? lol) well if it's a dopamine agonist I don't see how it could help ? What is the mecanism implicated ?There's a book who talk about that..
http://www.amazon.com/Natures-Science-5-HTP-50-caps/dp/B000N7DLUG
Oh... I see.. Amazon now sells drugs :)
The maker of that 5-HTP sounds phony if I may say : "Nature's Science 5-HTP 50 mg 60 caps 5-Hydroxy Tryptophan (5-HTP) by Nature's Science is a powerful serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) that may be useful in treating forms of depression characterized by serotonin deficits"
.. SSRI ? yeah, right. I don't see any potential Serotonin Re-uptake inhibition related to 5-HTP. lolHope you're feeling good.
Marty
Posted by Marty on October 29, 2007, at 13:36:40
In reply to Found that article, posted by Jimmyboy on October 28, 2007, at 20:00:58
> Sorry- kind of long, but may be useful
It was! very good article. I've freaked when I saw the heart spasm thing; the first day I took the 5-HTP I had something really scary with my heart. It only happened like 2 seconds and felt like if my heart was freaking.. big rush of adrenaline (which became huge cause of a "WTF" panic)
.. I only take 50mg before going to sleep, but that day it was my second dose. Only 100mg .. on the firt day. The odd that it was that should be VERY small .. but .. :S dont know what to do with that.
thx for the article
Marty
Posted by Questionmark on November 10, 2007, at 11:26:26
In reply to PB Big brains-) Tryptophan or 5-HTP ? F google :P, posted by Marty on October 28, 2007, at 13:00:06
I don't know about the other concerns you were all discussing, but I can say that as for me tryptophan works significantly better (more often and easily has a noticeable effect) than 5-HTP.
From what I understand 5-htp has a more difficult time crossing the Blood Brain Barrier than tryptophan, so that may be a reason why, i'm not sure.
Posted by tealady on November 27, 2007, at 4:48:56
In reply to Found that article, posted by Jimmyboy on October 28, 2007, at 20:00:58
So do green bananas contain a lot of srotonin then? I do remember a huge tummy ache after climbing a tree and eating a fair chunk of the bunch of green bananas I somehow got down..when I was 4 or 5 yrs old.. I was hungry and the pineapples were too spikey and prickly to pull up with my hands.. tried to pick them first , being on the ground:-)
Didn't know bananas had to be yellow then.. actually the ones in the tropics seem to be ripe when green anyway..
Just wondering if green bananas are worth a try for serotonin in a small qty of course!
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