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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by teejay on March 4, 2007, at 9:34:03
Fed up with trying and failing with various odd regimes, I took a shot at treating myself as if I was hitadelic. I do share most of the traits so decided it couldnt really hurt.
The regime consists of...
30mg zinc
600mg calcium
500mg methionine
163mg magnesium (with 1gm taurine bound)
100mg B6
200mg selenium (dont take this every day)
500mg TMG (I had it lying around but thought it might help the methylation)I take all this at the same time just after breakfast.
So far so good. Ok, I'm still far from perfect, but currently in the longest 'up spell' that I've been in for a while.
Any comments or suggestions?
TJ
Posted by Declan on March 4, 2007, at 12:20:35
In reply to What seems to be working for me right now......, posted by teejay on March 4, 2007, at 9:34:03
Histadelic? Like in Pfeiffer's book? This something to do with histidine/histamine? I forget.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on March 4, 2007, at 12:41:01
In reply to Re: What seems to be working for me right now....., posted by Declan on March 4, 2007, at 12:20:35
Yeah thats right apparently. Something to do with um, not processing a b vit right? I forget too. Ah, or are they supposed to have a high metabolic rate? Or something like that.
M
Posted by tealady on March 6, 2007, at 2:17:39
In reply to What seems to be working for me right now......, posted by teejay on March 4, 2007, at 9:34:03
what is the last bit of the zinc TJ? Zinc has a 2nd bit too.. same as magnesium
also re the calcium.. all metals have this 2nd bit which just like magnesium make a diff sometimes..
Just trying to see if there is any obvious reason its working..besides the combo being hitadelic :)says me who can't type one letter words correctly
Glad you're ina up-spell (as well as a mis-spell)
Posted by sregan on March 7, 2007, at 10:38:41
In reply to What seems to be working for me right now......, posted by teejay on March 4, 2007, at 9:34:03
> 30mg zinc
> 600mg calcium
> 500mg methionine
> 163mg magnesium (with 1gm taurine bound)
> 100mg B6
> 200mg selenium (dont take this every day)
> 500mg TMG (I had it lying around but thought it might help the methylation)The Zinc, Magnesium and Taurine are all NDMA antagonists and should have calming effects. Does the calcium help the magnesium?
By methionine you mean Sam-E? I hadn't heard of TMG but read it help boosts SamE.
Shawn
Posted by teejay on March 7, 2007, at 13:31:31
In reply to Re: What seems to be working for me right now..... » teejay, posted by sregan on March 7, 2007, at 10:38:41
Hello Shawn,
No, I don't take Sam-e but methionine isa precursor amino acid.
I think the idea is that histadelics are high in histamine and have a problem of some description with folic acid. Calcium and methionine help excrete it or use it up (not actually sure of the mechanics of its action).
I take the magnesium as I've always found it helpful and didnt want the calcium to leave me deficient.
The TMG I just had lying around and I dont like wasting supps so added it as its supposed to aid methylation so should be a good addition to the methionine.
The B6 is to help it all work I think.
Sorry to be a bit vague. There is stacks of stuff online though which might help you understand it more.
Give it a whirl, you'll know in just a few days if its gonna help you or not and none of the supps are expensive.
TJ
Posted by sregan on March 8, 2007, at 10:51:10
In reply to Re: What seems to be working for me right now....., posted by teejay on March 7, 2007, at 13:31:31
> The TMG I just had lying around and I dont like wasting supps so added it as its supposed to aid methylation so should be a good addition to the methionine.
http://www.drpodell.org/alternative_treatments_for_depression.shtmlTJ,
Check the above link, it mentions Folic Acid and B12 for Improves Methylation pathways
You might add those two if you believe you are being helped by improving methylation .
Posted by teejay on March 12, 2007, at 16:56:00
In reply to Re: What seems to be working for me right now..... » teejay, posted by sregan on March 8, 2007, at 10:51:10
This is an interesting discussion.
http://stuckinadoorway.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=4740&page=8
Posted by sregan on March 12, 2007, at 17:01:44
In reply to Re: What seems to be working for me right now..... » teejay, posted by sregan on March 8, 2007, at 10:51:10
http://www.favoritedr.com/PyroHist.html
An article about under and over Methlyation and Pyroluria. Three types of anxiety causing conditions.
Posted by teejay on March 12, 2007, at 21:54:47
In reply to Pyroluria, Histadelia and Histapenia - Anxiety, posted by sregan on March 12, 2007, at 17:01:44
Good link BUT I fit all of those criteria to some degree or another.
What I didnt realise though is that motion sickness is a sign of pyroluria. Even as a child I suffered with motion sickness.
I'll stick with the histadelic treatment (even though I feel real rough at the moment) as its meant to take a long while for benefits to be seen, and also zinc and B6 are core to both so overlap in treatments nicely.
According to that other link I posted, it seems my 500mg a day of L-methionine is way short of whats needed.
Thanks for the link.
TJ
Posted by nolvas on March 13, 2007, at 19:44:30
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, Histadelia and Histapenia - Anxiety, posted by teejay on March 12, 2007, at 21:54:47
I would treat these supposed conditions with a deal of skepticism though, there's no official studies to back them up at all. Look up Pyroluria on pubmed for example.
Posted by teejay on March 13, 2007, at 21:45:04
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, Histadelia and Histapenia - Anxiety, posted by nolvas on March 13, 2007, at 19:44:30
Is that totally true though nolvas?
I know pyroluria is a condition which has a lot of scepticism surrounding it. It is argued that the 'mauve factor' may well be a symptom of the illness rather than a definitive test.
Bottom line is despite their sceptics, the orthomolecular doctors have had an awful lot of successes over the years so whilst they might not be spot on, they sure seem to be on the right track.
In my opinion anyway.
TJ
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on March 22, 2007, at 19:44:07
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, Histadelia and Histapenia - Anxiety, posted by teejay on March 13, 2007, at 21:45:04
I am a physician in Dublin and I find that diagnosing and treating these conditions to be of great value for the majority of my patients with mental health problems.I also use the standard medical treatment for these same patients. Many of those with depression will be able to get off antidepressants successfully by using nutrients- proper levels for each individual of vitamins,minerals,essential fatty acids and amino acids. Those with a history of psychotic illness should not come off them but they will often get by on a lot less.Generally OCD responds poorly to nutrients while depression responds well.Over 50% of those with schizophrenia or bipolar get a worthwhile response.Young people respond best and those over 60 not at all.There is a good response recently for autistic children who start treatment by age 4. I have some more details in www.omega3.20megsfree.com
Posted by Franz on March 31, 2007, at 19:18:57
In reply to Pyroluria, Histadelia and Histapenia - Anxiety, posted by sregan on March 12, 2007, at 17:01:44
> http://www.favoritedr.com/PyroHist.html
>
> An article about under and over Methlyation and Pyroluria. Three types of anxiety causing conditions.Is there a way to diagnose these conditions that do not require lab tests?.
Will taking an anti-histamine drug and watching the results be valid?.
I seem to have mixed symptoms.
Posted by tealady on April 7, 2007, at 20:03:50
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, Histadelia and Histapenia - Anxiety, posted by Ed O`Flaherty on March 22, 2007, at 19:44:07
> I am a physician in Dublin and I find that diagnosing and treating these conditions to be of great value for the majority of my patients with mental health problems.I also use the standard medical treatment for these same patients. Many of those with depression will be able to get off antidepressants successfully by using nutrients- proper levels for each individual of vitamins,minerals,essential fatty acids and amino acids. Those with a history of psychotic illness should not come off them but they will often get by on a lot less.Generally OCD responds poorly to nutrients while depression responds well.Over 50% of those with schizophrenia or bipolar get a worthwhile response.Young people respond best and those over 60 not at all.There is a good response recently for autistic children who start treatment by age 4. I have some more details in www.omega3.20megsfree.com
I realise the division into pyoluria or under/over methlation simplifies , and most dont fit into a neat group, but I have always had all the symptoms of pyolruia and worked out a similar testment(B6 and zinc)..which helped but didnt fully stop any problems fo over 25 yrs or so.
Thing is they talk about this "mauve factor" for diagnosis, or maybe I'm confusing the two pyoluria and kryptopyrrole..?
I did try placing my urine in the sun for a few days (many years ago), but no mauve?As I aged .. over 40 , then other things seem to play a part too.
As you say, younger responds better.Kind regards,
Jan
Posted by tealady on April 7, 2007, at 20:06:22
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, Histadelia and Histapenia - Anxiety, posted by teejay on March 12, 2007, at 21:54:47
> Good link BUT I fit all of those criteria to some degree or another.
>
> What I didnt realise though is that motion sickness is a sign of pyroluria. Even as a child I suffered with motion sickness.
>
> I'll stick with the histadelic treatment (even though I feel real rough at the moment) as its meant to take a long while for benefits to be seen, and also zinc and B6 are core to both so overlap in treatments nicely.
>
> According to that other link I posted, it seems my 500mg a day of L-methionine is way short of whats needed.
>
> Thanks for the link.
>
> TJJust wondering how it's working as it's been a while now?
Posted by teejay on April 7, 2007, at 20:56:11
In reply to How's its working out for u? » teejay, posted by tealady on April 7, 2007, at 20:06:22
Hi jan,
got your mail today.....nice to hear from you, and glad you still think of me as an English Odonis! he he he he! :-)))
Not sure how I'm fairing is the honest answer. I had felt that I was making progress but then had what might be described as a relapse (or perhaps its just part of my cycling process?) where I felt real crappy for a week and a half. Now seem on the up again and today, probably had the best day I've had in some time!
During the down period I feel very disconnected from everything (derealisation?) and am so irritable, angry, I could find fault with a lottery win! :-( Also sleep goes kinda wierd too. I get to sleep ok but then wake after what I imagine is one REM cycle of 3 or 4 hours feeling very agitated and anxious and then spend the rest ofthe night sleeping just 10 to 30 minutes at a time, broken by wake spells of extreme anxiety. Oddly the cycle ends abruptly with a decent full nights sleep and a general improvement the next day. Still have no idea if this is some from of cycling (doesnt seem to be any regular pattern to it) or if its in some way allergy based, but again I'd be at a loss to guess what the trigger might be. All I know is the bad spells really are about as near to hell as my mind could imagine! Fortunately however I don't feel like this all the time and when I do feel that bad, I can cling to the reality that it WILL pass and days like today will come along at some point.
From what I've read, histadelia is something which requires a long term treatment plan to see any results so will continue it religiously for another 6 months and see how I go.
For the record (and anyone looking in new to this thread) I am taking....
100mg B6 once a day
500mg methionine once a day
600mg calcium once a day
30mg zinc once a dayThose 4 are the basis of the hisdalelia treatment plan. On top of these I also take the following....
120mg lithium orotate (needs using up and thought it might be a useful addition)
500mg TMG (again, needs using up and thought it might make a useful adjunct to the methionine)
163mg magnesium with 1000mg taurine (to balance the calcium)
200ug selenium (good mens health nutrient to take)
The lithium ius finished in 7 days and the TMG in 17 days so both will be discontinued at those points. I'm hoping their exclusion makes no difference to my progress.Been buying lots of seeds and seedlings this weekend (its the easter holiday here this weekend)and am genuinely looking forward to the summer and getting my veggie plot planted and watching my hard work bear fruit. Now the sheer fact I'm looking FORWARD to something is a step in the right direction. :-)))
Still waiting for that piccy by the way ;-))
TJ
Posted by tealady on April 9, 2007, at 21:39:09
In reply to Re: How's its working out for u?, posted by teejay on April 7, 2007, at 20:56:11
> Hi jan,
>
> got your mail today.....nice to hear from you, and glad you still think of me as an English Odonis! he he he he! :-)))Well I didn't exactly mention Odonis, in fact I had to google him..
All I got was he was some monk who threw away the vow of poverty, which I'm sure you agree is a good idea..
It didn't unfortunately mention him throwing away any vow of chastity though...mmm (probably wrong Odonis:-)
kinda vague idea of a greek god or something?
>
> Not sure how I'm fairing is the honest answer. I had felt that I was making progress but then had what might be described as a relapse (or perhaps its just part of my cycling process?) where I felt real crappy for a week and a half. Now seem on the up again and today, probably had the best day I've had in some time!
>glad to hear it:-)) .. the good day, that is
> During the down period I feel very disconnected from everything (derealisation?) and am so irritable, angry, I could find fault with a lottery win! :-(
yeah my mother is like that a bit now.. she actually had a small win at the pokies but didnt seem that thrilled..it was more the bother of waiting for an attendant!.. it was actually a mistake as she pushed the 25X key instead of the 1X and got a bigger drop than otherwise, not a jackpot
>Also sleep goes kinda wierd too. I get to sleep ok but then wake after what I imagine is one REM cycle of 3 or 4 hours feeling very agitated and anxious and then spend the rest ofthe night sleeping just 10 to 30 minutes at a time, broken by wake spells of extreme anxiety.that sounds pretty typical for me,e except I had some accupunture in BN and after a few days I actually relaxed properly and go a full nihjts sleep thru and awoke refreshed.. back to the typical now though. Yes I didnt feel like I'd fall asleepall day and didn't crash in the afternnon either on the couple of good nights I got. I did get needles stuck into my jaw and top of head though..as well I had some accupuncture for my knee.. which i felt, but I'm unsure if it helped.Definitely got referred pain around leg though, which shows meridian poijts flowing, which is supposed to aid healing, I think..
Flying back up to BN in a weeks time so another week, so will try accupunture again then a few times..it's bulk billed by a GP up there. and I'm going to this great masseur for my knee too that a friend told me about.. he just saw what was wrong immediately, said it wasn't tracking right , dug his fingers in somehow and put it back..when I got up it felt like I had no knee again..like it was perfect, but it hasnt lasted.
I need to rebuild and balance the muscles...> Oddly the cycle ends abruptly with a decent full nights sleep and a general improvement the next day. Still have no idea if this is some from of cycling (doesnt seem to be any regular pattern to it) or if its in some way allergy based, but again I'd be at a loss to guess what the trigger might be. All I know is the bad spells really are about as near to hell as my mind could imagine! Fortunately however I don't feel like this all the time and when I do feel that bad, I can cling to the reality that it WILL pass and days like today will come along at some point.
>well stress (or lack of support)is a trigger for me...other than that I'm not sure either. I do think mayve=be some kinds of chocolate, nitatres, sulfites.. beats me.. it definitely aint clear!
> From what I've read, histadelia is something which requires a long term treatment plan to see any results so will continue it religiously for another 6 months and see how I go.
yep, that's the picture I get too
>
> For the record (and anyone looking in new to this thread) I am taking....
>
> 100mg B6 once a day
> 500mg methionine once a day
> 600mg calcium once a day
> 30mg zinc once a day
>
> Those 4 are the basis of the hisdalelia treatment plan. On top of these I also take the following....
>
> 120mg lithium orotate (needs using up and thought it might be a useful addition)
> 500mg TMG (again, needs using up and thought it might make a useful adjunct to the methionine)
> 163mg magnesium with 1000mg taurine (to balance the calcium)
> 200ug selenium (good mens health nutrient to take)
> The lithium ius finished in 7 days and the TMG in 17 days so both will be discontinued at those points. I'm hoping their exclusion makes no difference to my progress.
>
> Been buying lots of seeds and seedlings this weekend (its the easter holiday here this weekend)and am genuinely looking forward to the summer and getting my veggie plot planted and watching my hard work bear fruit. Now the sheer fact I'm looking FORWARD to something is a step in the right direction. :-)))
>
I'm not sure.. shouldn't the vege plot be bearing veges not fruit?.. unless it's tomatoes of course ;-)
in summer I got 2 tomato vines(one normal, one cherry) to live thru the drought and still have one capsicum vine, got a lot of fresh beans there for a while.
It was my first vege plot for years too.. I really must or probably shoulda already planted some peas for winter.
Posted by teejay on April 10, 2007, at 8:10:55
In reply to Re: How's its working out for u?, posted by tealady on April 9, 2007, at 21:39:09
Doh, only I could manage to mix up a celebate monk with a greek sex god!!!! :-))
It was of course Adonis, not Odonis.
Here is his picture (shield your delicate eyes though, he has no clothes on!!!)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/Adonis3.jpg/200px-Adonis3.jpg
Posted by sregan on April 20, 2007, at 15:35:20
In reply to What seems to be working for me right now......, posted by teejay on March 4, 2007, at 9:34:03
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS_Yasko/files/
This Dr. has done an incredible amount of work with the methlyation cycle and has a large PDF book in the Files section of this group. She may be on her way to solving Chronic Fatigue and many other complicated disorders that involve methlyation.
Posted by tealady on May 8, 2007, at 2:56:24
In reply to Re: How's its working out for u?, posted by teejay on April 7, 2007, at 20:56:11
> Hi jan,
>
> got your mail today.....nice to hear from you, and glad you still think of me as an English Odonis! he he he he! :-)))
>
> Not sure how I'm fairing is the honest answer. I had felt that I was making progress but then had what might be described as a relapse (or perhaps its just part of my cycling process?) where I felt real crappy for a week and a half. Now seem on the up again and today, probably had the best day I've had in some time!
>
> During the down period I feel very disconnected from everything (derealisation?) and am so irritable, angry, I could find fault with a lottery win! :-( Also sleep goes kinda wierd too. I get to sleep ok but then wake after what I imagine is one REM cycle of 3 or 4 hours feeling very agitated and anxious and then spend the rest ofthe night sleeping just 10 to 30 minutes at a time, broken by wake spells of extreme anxiety. Oddly the cycle ends abruptly with a decent full nights sleep and a general improvement the next day. Still have no idea if this is some from of cycling (doesnt seem to be any regular pattern to it) or if its in some way allergy based, but again I'd be at a loss to guess what the trigger might be. All I know is the bad spells really are about as near to hell as my mind could imagine! Fortunately however I don't feel like this all the time and when I do feel that bad, I can cling to the reality that it WILL pass and days like today will come along at some point.
>
> From what I've read, histadelia is something which requires a long term treatment plan to see any results so will continue it religiously for another 6 months and see how I go.
>
> For the record (and anyone looking in new to this thread) I am taking....
>
> 100mg B6 once a day
> 500mg methionine once a day
> 600mg calcium once a day
> 30mg zinc once a day
>
> Those 4 are the basis of the hisdalelia treatment plan. On top of these I also take the following....
>
> 120mg lithium orotate (needs using up and thought it might be a useful addition)
> 500mg TMG (again, needs using up and thought it might make a useful adjunct to the methionine)
> 163mg magnesium with 1000mg taurine (to balance the calcium)
> 200ug selenium (good mens health nutrient to take)
> The lithium ius finished in 7 days and the TMG in 17 days so both will be discontinued at those points. I'm hoping their exclusion makes no difference to my progress.
>
> Been buying lots of seeds and seedlings this weekend (its the easter holiday here this weekend)and am genuinely looking forward to the summer and getting my veggie plot planted and watching my hard work bear fruit. Now the sheer fact I'm looking FORWARD to something is a step in the right direction. :-)))
>
> Still waiting for that piccy by the way ;-))
>
> TJ
>
>
well I still forgot to plant my veges but I'm back in Sydney now.I just read a bit about iodine.
You may recall i've been eating kelp for over a year now.
I may have overdone it today as I have a headache.
Anyway I came acroaa this yahoo groups and had a listen to this doc on iodine..and it seems to be somehow related to histamine and I cant figure out if that is related to histadelic or sot or if it would help or not.. but maybe some one canjust a different angle to consider maybe
Histidine and Histamine. Histidine is the precursor for histamine.
Anti-histamines are used to control runny noses, hives, and itching.
Iodine inhibits the conversion of histidine to histamine, thus
reducing itching, hives, etc.http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/iodine/message/15403
or the talks are here
http://iodine4health.com/body/hormones/flechas_hormones.htmI'm not sure what to think as yet
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on August 7, 2007, at 16:26:48
In reply to Re: How's its working out for u? » teejay, posted by tealady on May 8, 2007, at 2:56:24
I think everybody with a mental health problem should have proper testing done and then take the appropriate nutrition,usually is association with medication and definitely in association with medication if there is a history of psychosis.This treatment is often referred to as biochemical individuality. Last week for example I tested 4 people and found they were all suffering from histapenia-low histamine- which in turn gives rise to high copper and high adrenaline and very high anxiety-some can hardly sit still- and often depression. One of these had a zinc level of 19 while another had a zinc level 60-the ideal figure is 90-150.So the amount of zinc I prescribed was very different and I will check their plasma zinc and serum copper in 3 months again.Even if you only get those 2 tests done-they are standard lab tests done in most hospitals-you will be making a good start but I normally measure about 100 different tests,most of which fortunately rarely require repeating.
Posted by Asiate on December 1, 2007, at 19:40:01
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, Histadelia and Histapenia - Anxiety, posted by Ed O`Flaherty on March 22, 2007, at 19:44:07
Dear Mr.Ed O`Flaherty.
I found your postings about mental health and pyroluria and histamine all over the internet.
I(25) myself suffer from a slight form of schizophrenia for 2 years now.
It is better so say that i have some slight psychotic symptoms.I take 2 mg of Risperdal and do a orthomolecular treament for a couple of months now.I have borderline pyroluria, slight histadelia and a slight form of hypoglycemia.As you know these are the most common reasons for schizophrenia according to Pfeiffer.
The medications always helped to weaken the symptoms but since I started the orthomolecular treatment I really feel that there is something changing to positive.I have some very good days but I am hoping the trend is getting more stable.
My question to you now is how long does it take for most patients to reach a stable and good level?Maybe you tell me something from your experience as a doctor?That would be very nice:)
I could maybe make my peace with some psychotic symptoms but what bothers me the most is the lack of emotions.Especially joy and love.I guess my high histamine is maybe blocking serotonine and dopamine to do their job correctly.And also the Risperdal is maybe blocking my emotions partly.I hope to get rid of it completely...also because of other sideeffects.
Ok I guess I have talked enough;)
It would be nice to hear from you.
Maybe you could email me?
That would be very kind:)Many greetings from germany!
Asiate
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on December 18, 2007, at 6:32:59
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, Histadelia and Histapenia - Anxiety, posted by Asiate on December 1, 2007, at 19:40:01
Histadelia is very slow to respond with little improvement seen until the 3rd or 4th month. Full recovery takes about a year. A big problem with this condition is that Histadelics are by nature non-compliant so about 50% stop their nutrients and do not do well. Pyroluric patients often start to get better in a few weeks and are usually well in about 6 months.
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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