![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by dessbee on December 17, 2006, at 9:07:59
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant, posted by regis harold on December 16, 2006, at 17:29:30
SJW has the same effect on me. It improves mood but some how it also increases inner tension, irritability and aggressivity.
Sleep is really important, sometimes i believe depression is actually a sleep disorder. Studies have shown that sleep deprivation disturbs neurogenesis. For sure it disturbs moood, focus and patience.
Posted by Declan on December 17, 2006, at 12:22:00
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant » regis harold, posted by dessbee on December 17, 2006, at 9:07:59
Yes, why isn't depression a sleep disorder?
Posted by dessbee on December 18, 2006, at 8:14:31
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant » dessbee, posted by Declan on December 17, 2006, at 12:22:00
Well, I think it is. There seems to be a strong connection. That is probably why SSRI does not work for so many people, it causes sleep deprivation. The difficulty lies in determine which ever came first, sleep disorder or depression.
Found this
"In recent years, researchers established that insomnia and depression are linked, but struggled to determine which came first. Many experts believed that depression caused insomnia until new drugs arrived that improved depression, but not insomnia. The idea that insomnia could be a contributor to, or predictor of, depression gained credence. The study presented today at APSS is the first to establish that insomnia prolongs bouts of sadness, hopelessness and loss of interest in life activities that characterize major depression, making patients less likely to recover. In particular, this first study of patients experiencing major depression found that those suffering from insomnia were over 10 times more likely still to be depressed after 6 months than those without insomnia, and 17 times more likely to remain depressed after a full year. The study concludes that targeting treatment specifically for insomnia will increase both the likelihood and the rate of recovery from major depression."
http://counsellingresource.com/features/archives/2005/drugs/sleep-depression/
Posted by dessbee on December 18, 2006, at 12:55:26
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant, posted by nolvas on December 11, 2006, at 15:05:01
If Safranal act as an agonist at GABA(A)receptors it probably works through reducing anxiety and improving sleep.
Posted by Declan on December 23, 2006, at 14:17:52
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant, posted by dessbee on December 11, 2006, at 15:47:11
Salmon saffron soup?
Maybe I can buy saffron in bulk from a local herb supplier.
Posted by dessbee on December 24, 2006, at 14:38:28
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant » dessbee, posted by Declan on December 23, 2006, at 14:17:52
Saffron quality is serious science
So make sure you get the right quality.
Crocin produce the three things chefs are looking for: aroma (safranal), flavor(picrocrocin) and color (crocin)
Most likely, the more color (crocin) the more safranal.http://www.saffron.com/cons_guide.html
Here is my favourite
French Saffron Salmon Soup600 gram salmon
400 gram shrimp
200 gram dry white wine
2 unions
3 cloves garlic
2 tbs olive oil
1 fennel
1 carrot
5 potatoes
1.2 liter fish bullion
1 tsp thyme
1 can of tomatoes
salt and black pepper
0.5 gram ground saffron
juice from 1/2 orange (you can add some zest if you want to increase taste of orange)Slice union, garlic, fennel, carrots (thin stripes) and potatoes (cubes)
Fry union, garlic, fennel, carrots in olive oil.
Add Potatoes, fish bullion, tomatoes, tyme, salt and pepper
Boil 20 minutes
Add wine, orange juice and saffron
Boil 10 minutes
Add cubes of salmon
Boil/simmer for 3-6 minutes
Peel shrimps and add when soup is ready.(if you want to make a cheaper soup you can just skip shrimps and wine)
Posted by ramsea on December 25, 2006, at 4:52:10
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant » regis harold, posted by dessbee on December 17, 2006, at 9:07:59
<<<<It improves mood but some how it also increases inner tension, irritability and aggressivity.>>>>
I am very curious--as a bipolar i have experienced dreadful Mixed Episodes, which means meeting the criteria for both mania and depression at the same time. one aspect of this mood state is to be highly energized, with racing thoughts, while also having heaps of inner tension, irritability and agitation (aggression).
can you explain to me how your mood is improved if you at the same time feel these other negative mood conditions? for me an improved mood would not include these conditions, which are real problems as i see it. are you a mix of good feelings, peace, sense of well being--and just sometimes have flares of the negatives? thanks in advance.
ramsea
Posted by dessbee on December 25, 2006, at 7:24:21
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant, posted by ramsea on December 25, 2006, at 4:52:10
I think your point is well made. My experience is that SJW improves energy level, motivation, circidian rythm, but it also increases inner tension and irritation. Never heard of mixed state, at first I thought you were referring to rapid cycling.
I could be suffering from a depressive mixed state ("major depressive with superimposed hypomanic symptoms") but then again symptoms of depression also include irritability.What medication has improved your symptoms?
Posted by ramsea on December 25, 2006, at 14:35:07
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant » ramsea, posted by dessbee on December 25, 2006, at 7:24:21
i think sjw is best avoided by the likes of me. it's probably most useful in lethargic depressions, which i rarely get.
medications have proven tricky for me.
although i suffer very acute depressions, it is often overlaid with a variety of manic-type symptoms.
lithium helped me at one point but after a time that backfired.
i can't take any ADs anymore--i always get way too revved up, with either a too intense euphoria or dysphoria background. however, Provigil has helped me at times without adding a manic component.
and low dose seleginine, again on my own addition, has also helped at times. i'm not sure if it still works for me or not--i need to test it.
Tramadol has helped at times--not prescribed for this (i get it for my migraines) but a pleasant side effect has been anti-depressive.sulpride and amisulpride--which i am using now--worked very well for me. i am on 100 mg amisulpride now but my prolactin is a problem and i am going to have to clear my system and try again. i hate to lose it altogether and hope maybe a really dose will help me with dysphoric difficulties and not raise my prolactin. time will tell.
ativan helps with my anxiety and panic disorder, and sometimes seems to stop me from being too irritable and tense inside a speedy, manicky episode.
i wish i had more meds that acted as both calming and motivating. always open to ideas.
Posted by dessbee on December 25, 2006, at 14:51:58
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant, posted by ramsea on December 25, 2006, at 14:35:07
I think fish oil is the best supplement for inner tension and aggressivity.
It is a great mood stabiliser and has been shown be effective in treating BPD (borderline personality disorder), depression and bipolar disorder.
Posted by ramsea on December 26, 2006, at 8:39:23
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant » ramsea, posted by dessbee on December 25, 2006, at 14:51:58
i have read this research and as a result take daily fish oil, flaxseed oil, evening primrose oil and eat 12 walnuts. also i try to eat oily fish 1-2 times a week. if the sea were in less trouble i'd feel better about both fish oil and eating fish.
how much do you take daily?
Posted by dessbee on December 26, 2006, at 9:34:20
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant, posted by ramsea on December 26, 2006, at 8:39:23
I try to eat 200 gram of fatty fish every day. For some reason I get insomnia from pure fish oil; do not tolerate more than 4 gram.
Posted by dessbee on December 26, 2006, at 11:02:46
In reply to Saffron - Anti depressant, posted by dessbee on December 11, 2006, at 7:12:35
It seems like saffron works as an anti-convulsant and effective in the treatment of both depression and epilepsy.
http://www.itmonline.org/arts/saffron.htm
I came to think of similar effects of Lamotrigine (Lamictal); an anticonvulsant drug used in the treatment of epilepsy and bipolar disorder. It is considered to have the most antidepressant potency of BPD drugs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamictal
Maybe saffron could be used for bipolar disorders as well.
Posted by dessbee on December 27, 2006, at 15:13:29
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant, posted by dessbee on December 26, 2006, at 11:02:46
Found Hamilton Depression Score from pilot double-blind randomized trial comparing saffron extract (Crocus sativus L.) and imipramine in the treatment of mild to moderate depression.http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=517724&rendertype=figure&id=F1
The whole study:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=517724
Posted by ramsea on January 17, 2007, at 5:55:10
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant, posted by dessbee on December 27, 2006, at 15:13:29
dessbee,
i have bought fresh saffron. i can take 200 mg of it and do something with it, do you have any recommendations? cook it, eat it cold, eat it hot, brew it 5 minutes or longer in tea, any suggestions? what is the right dose?
and is it still helping you? ramsea
Posted by dessbee on January 26, 2007, at 8:34:47
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant » dessbee, posted by ramsea on January 17, 2007, at 5:55:10
Hi Ramsea
Sorry, did not see your post until now. I would recommend making tea out of saffron. Dried saffron is easily crumbled/grounded and mixed with 50 ml hot water.
I did not know fresh saffron was available.
I beleive my calculation on 200 mg saffron was based on dried saffron. After the process of roasting, the stigmas of saffron have 1/5 of their original size/weight. So you would roughly need 1/2 - 1 gram of fresh saffron.Saffron needs to be roasted for preservation, so if your fresh saffron is old its chemicals might degrade.
Saffron is often adulterated due to its high price. Roasted saffron is quite easy to identify. Saffron should have a bitter taste of saffron's procrocetin and a distingished smell of safranal. The roasted stigmas should be bright red, dry and brittle. Saffron's crocin should color water golden. Oil content should be low, 0.4 - 1.3% essential oils.
According to some sites it is safe to use in the range up to 1500 mg of dried saffron.Many sites claim saffron is toxic.
http://www.florahealth.com/Flora/home/international/HealthInformation/Encyclopedias/Saffron.asp
But others claim that toxicity is overstated
"Saffron appears to have a very low order of toxicity. It is often said that very high doses of saffron can cause abortion and possible toxic symptoms, but there is no scientific documentation of these supposed effects. However, the so-called meadow saffron, Colchicum autumnale, is highly toxic, and sometimes people mistake one for the other. "
http://healthgate.partners.org/browsing/LearningCenter.asp?fileName=111801.xml&title=Saffron
Posted by ramsea on January 26, 2007, at 9:20:39
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant » ramsea, posted by dessbee on January 26, 2007, at 8:34:47
thanks for the links and the info, dessbee. very helpful and interesting.
i am totally intrigued by saffron now. i have been making a tea of the dried saffron (i made the mistake of referring to it as fresh-- it's only fresh in the sense that it is not in an extract or capsule. though i wasn't sure, i went ahead and used 200 mg of the red roasted stigma in boiled water, along with a black tea for flavor, and have been drinking 2 of those a day for approx. the last week.
i love the color of it and am learning more as i go about its fascinating history and uses. as far as effects, i am not positive, but i believe it may have helped my amenohorea, which is med induced. i was surprised to read from one of your links that it has been used for this since ancient times. as far as anti-depressant properties go, i am functionally depressed. maybe it is helping me, it is so hard to be sure.
do you think just one dose of 200 mg. in tea is enough to carry anti-depressant effects?
i expect for it to be lethal one would have to drink something like 100 cups of tea in a short time. i am just guessing, but it seems to take a lot for it to be lethal. it certainly is a potent substance though. very rich.
i appreciate your "opening my eyes" to saffron--thanks dessbee.
Posted by dessbee on January 26, 2007, at 11:01:19
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant » dessbee, posted by ramsea on January 26, 2007, at 9:20:39
I have been using saffron for three weeks. First week I used 250 mg of grounded saffron mixed in cold water. Second week 500 mg mixed in cold water. This week I am using 750-1000 mg mixed in hot water.
Personally I think 200 mg is not enough for anti-depressive effect. But this is of course individual.
Benefits I have noticed so far is a reduction in muscle weakness, fatigue, brain fog, anxiety and apathy.
I would consider saffron more of a mood stabalizer and less of a mood stimulant. It improves mental clarity without stress induction. This is what I really like about saffron, since most stimulants destabilize mood and induce anxiety. Another good thing is that saffron does not make me feel buzzed or influenced by a drug. I hate that feeling when drugs make me feel disconnected.
So far it has not been that effective on avolition, but these are also symptoms that take the longest to subside.I think it is to early to make a final conclusions about saffrons effect on me and I will probably have to wait another 8 weeks before any long term effects can be concluded.
Posted by ramsea on January 26, 2007, at 12:49:31
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant » ramsea, posted by dessbee on January 26, 2007, at 11:01:19
dessbee, this is extremely useful to me. so you are not brewing your saffron; is there a reason why you use cold water? is that a better medium?
i believe i will increase my dose now that i have proper instructions. that will be my plan this week. i am a quick responder to most substances so i may well see an effect at 500-750mg. i will come back here and report on how it goes.
a mood stabilizer is really best for me, with the bipolar to consider. but depression is so disheartening, one feels willing to try anything to just shift energies and be able to focus, act,and see the world with more clarity and direction.
if you feel like it, i would be very interested to hear about your experiences with saffron. it seems to be remarkably promising, with strong scientific backing regarding its CNS properties and effects on humans. so do let me know how it is for you.
cheers. ramsea
Posted by dessbee on January 26, 2007, at 13:45:57
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant » dessbee, posted by ramsea on January 26, 2007, at 12:49:31
During the first two weeks I bought mediocre grounded saffron from the supermarket. I could spot lighter parts of the stigma from this saffron signifying lower quility. The more even red saffron the higher quality and the more safranal.
I only used cold water the first two weeks, because the saffron was more or less like flour.
Last week I bought Iranian Saffron, which seems to be of high quality. It stinks of safranal (!) and has an evenly red color.
Here is my routine: I crumble/ground 500 mg of saffron with my fingers over 50 ml of hot water and let it brew for 1-2 minutes.
It's an expensive herb and I want to make sure everything is digested so I poor extra water in the cup to get all the good stuff that has stuck to the inside of the cup.
I have one cup in the morning and one in the evening.I think the cheapest and most efficient way would be to make an alcolic paste of grounded saffron that is administered sublingually in order to avoid first pass metabolism (liver). Generally anything absorbed in the top third of the oesophagus (food pipe) will skip first pass metabolism. But that will be a later project.
Posted by ramsea on January 28, 2007, at 12:48:48
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant » ramsea, posted by dessbee on January 26, 2007, at 13:45:57
Dessbee, thank you for explaining that. my saffron is very expensive and sold in tiny plastic containers. it is just as you described the Iranian saffron so i believe it is of high quality.
the aroma is definitely safranal, the color is evenly and deeply red. it turns the water a lovely gold and i actually like the taste without any other flavoring.
i am following your example and dosing at 500 twice daily.
your idea about administering it sublingually seems worth pursuing. i would certainly go for it. my impression is that i do feel a sense of clarity at this point as a result of the saffron. more later....ramsea
Posted by jed on February 18, 2007, at 17:29:35
In reply to Saffron - Anti depressant, posted by dessbee on December 11, 2006, at 7:12:35
Has anyone stuck with saffron? How is it going? I just came across this thread and am motivated to try saffron myself. Any updates would be greatly appreciated!
Posted by ramsea on February 19, 2007, at 6:20:40
In reply to Re: Saffron update, posted by jed on February 18, 2007, at 17:29:35
Hi, i am still trying saffron, following dessbee's dosage. it seems important to get the right quality saffron.
i am as of yet unsure of my reaction, but believe it to be overall positive. more will be revealed.
xxramsea
Posted by tealady on March 1, 2007, at 0:54:37
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant » dessbee, posted by Declan on December 23, 2006, at 14:17:52
> Salmon saffron soup?
>
> Maybe I can buy saffron in bulk from a local herb supplier.
some vege stores sell fresh or maybe its dried saffron.. to use in cooking paella.
I know one vege store of the wollongong uni does.
.. but most don't I guess
Posted by jed on March 1, 2007, at 13:13:37
In reply to Re: Saffron - Anti depressant » Declan, posted by tealady on March 1, 2007, at 0:54:37
> some vege stores sell fresh or maybe its dried saffron.. to use in >cooking paella.
I've been getting saffron at Trader Joe's. Trader Joe's doesn't have stores everywhere, even here in the U.S., but I thought I'd mention it in case people had a store close by. They sell a jar of one gram of Spanish saffron for $2.99. It is the dried stigmas/strands.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.