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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by LizinManhattan on May 25, 2006, at 0:43:05
In reply to Re: Depression treatment-where to go from here?, posted by Meri-Tuuli on May 23, 2006, at 3:59:55
Hi Meri,
Thanks for your reply! St. John's Wort is definitely on my list. However, I recently found out that birth control pills can become less effective if you take St. John's Wort at the same time, so I need to do some more research on that. As for the birth control pills, I sort of have to take them for medical reasons (the contraceptive effect is just an added "benefit").
Thanks for your reply, Meri!
Liz
> Hey there!
>
> Have you tried St John's Wort? Its pretty good, and would probably be good for you, as I get the impression that you responded best to the MAOIs? Its acts abit like a MAOI (ie noradrenaline, sertonin and dopamine action and some GABA too) but it doesn't have any side effects. Well, maybe some very very mild ones which go away in the first couple of weeks anyway. I can't even remember what mine were! Oh it seemed to make me feel more cold (but that could have been because it was winter!) And at first my bladder felt like the size of a pea, but that soon went away.
>
> You need a reputable brand like Kira or pernika.
>
> Also, I wouldn't take the birth control pills. They can induce depression in some women.
>
> I have no experience/knowledge about claritin, but maybe that might be contributing?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Meri
Posted by Declan on May 26, 2006, at 6:23:49
In reply to Re: Depression treatment-where to go from here? » verne, posted by LizinManhattan on May 22, 2006, at 9:44:23
Hi Liz
You responded to Parnate. What about mucana pruriens?
Declan
Posted by Declan on May 26, 2006, at 7:01:53
In reply to Re: Depression treatment-where to go from here? » LizinManhattan, posted by Declan on May 26, 2006, at 6:23:49
And rhodiola.
Posted by LizinManhattan on May 29, 2006, at 13:05:23
In reply to Re: Depression treatment-where to go from here? » LizinManhattan, posted by Declan on May 26, 2006, at 6:23:49
Hi Declan,
I will definitely look into mucana pruriens. (For some reason I keep on reading it as mucous prunes!)
I am doing fairly well on the mixture I described in my first post with the recent addition of magnesium. However, I find myself needing more energy, motivation, and sex drive and less "word finding problems" if that makes sense.
Thanks, Declan!
Liz
> Hi Liz
> You responded to Parnate. What about mucana pruriens?
> Declan
Posted by LizinManhattan on May 29, 2006, at 13:08:28
In reply to Re: Depression treatment-where to go from here?, posted by Declan on May 26, 2006, at 7:01:53
Hi again,
Does it matter what kind of rhodiola? This might be just what I need as it seems to help with energy levels.
Thanks, Declan.
Liz
> And rhodiola.
Posted by Declan on May 29, 2006, at 17:26:36
In reply to Re: Depression treatment-where to go from here? » Declan, posted by LizinManhattan on May 29, 2006, at 13:05:23
Hi Liz
Psychopharmacology 101 again.
I had fewer word finding problems on moclobemide. NE? Definately sharper but not more comfortable. The only thing with rhodiola is sleep, but if you could handle Parnate you'll have no trouble. I took 'Rosavin' rhodiola.
Declan
Posted by LizinManhattan on May 31, 2006, at 1:00:04
In reply to Re: Depression treatment-where to go from here?, posted by Declan on May 29, 2006, at 17:26:36
Hi Declan,
Not sure what you mean by "NE," perhaps "no energy" or some babble-speak I am not familiar with. That, or I am just tired!
I started taking Taurine today as I have been reading about that a little bit. I also bought some protein powder which I figure can't hurt as I don't get a lot of protein from my food anyway.
Do you know if anyone has done any research on word-finding problems?
Liz> Hi Liz
>
> Psychopharmacology 101 again.
>
> I had fewer word finding problems on moclobemide. NE? Definately sharper but not more comfortable. The only thing with rhodiola is sleep, but if you could handle Parnate you'll have no trouble. I took 'Rosavin' rhodiola.
>
> Declan
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 6, 2006, at 7:42:14
In reply to Re: Depression treatment-where to go from here? » Meri-Tuuli, posted by LizinManhattan on May 25, 2006, at 0:43:05
> Hi Meri,
>
> Thanks for your reply! St. John's Wort is definitely on my list. However, I recently found out that birth control pills can become less effective if you take St. John's Wort at the same time, so I need to do some more research on that. As for the birth control pills, I sort of have to take them for medical reasons (the contraceptive effect is just an added "benefit").
> Thanks for your reply, Meri!
> LizBirth control pills rely on a synthetic or modified steroid structure. Natural estrogen, for example, has a half-life measured in minutes, if not seconds. That would hardly be practical, to take billionths of a gram of a hormone, every two minutes, so they settled on long-lasting hormone analogs.
SJW speeds the clearance of those analogs from your body, via enhanced enzyme activity in your liver. Birth control dose would need to be adjusted, but would not necessarily be excluded. It would mean having back-up protection, and spending some energy balancing out the dose. I can't be sure, but I bet that SJW gradually increases the liver function, so to match that, you'd have to gradually increase the dose of the birth control meds.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 6, 2006, at 7:47:22
In reply to Re: Depression treatment-where to go from here? » Declan, posted by LizinManhattan on May 29, 2006, at 13:05:23
> Hi Declan,
> I will definitely look into mucana pruriens. (For some reason I keep on reading it as mucous prunes!)
> I am doing fairly well on the mixture I described in my first post with the recent addition of magnesium. However, I find myself needing more energy, motivation, and sex drive and less "word finding problems" if that makes sense.
> Thanks, Declan!
> LizIt could be oxidative stress. You need alphalipoic acid (100-200 mg/day), vitamin C slow-release (2000 mg/day), selenium (200 mcg/day), and you'd probably respond to N-acetyl-cysteine and Enada NADH. Vitamin D might provide a significant boost, too. Up to 4000 IU/day.
You may really need some zinc and chromium. Check out the info here, and see if the shoe fits. http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals.html
The cysteine and Enada require some experimentation. If you wanna go there, I'll help you sort it out.
Lar
Posted by dessbee on June 8, 2006, at 12:24:15
In reply to Re: Depression treatment-where to go from here? » Meri-Tuuli, posted by LizinManhattan on May 25, 2006, at 0:43:05
I have similar symptoms and have tried all your supplements except Birth control pills (I am a man). The only supplement of yours I can recommend is fish oil (no more than 4 gram).
You could be histadelic (high histamine) considering your allergy.
Histadelics should avoid b12 and folic acid. These supplements will only make your symptoms worse.Evening Primrose oil has a short term energizing effect but it wears off and will worsen your depression. The body uses GLA for producing both inflammatory and anti-inflammatory prostaglandins. Your fatigue could be a sign of inflammatory prostaglandins. It is really gambling with your health taking GLA.
My recommendation for depression is st john wort (600 mg) and/or seroctin (700 mg), zinc 20 mg, fish oil (2-4 gram)
Posted by dessbee on June 8, 2006, at 12:53:22
In reply to Depression treatment-where to go from here?, posted by LizinManhattan on May 21, 2006, at 1:49:16
B6 will elevate your histamine levels and worsen your symptoms if you are histadelic; especially if you are taking high doses of B6.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 8, 2006, at 15:16:42
In reply to Re: You could be histadelic » LizinManhattan, posted by dessbee on June 8, 2006, at 12:24:15
> Evening Primrose oil has a short term energizing effect but it wears off and will worsen your depression. The body uses GLA for producing both inflammatory and anti-inflammatory prostaglandins. Your fatigue could be a sign of inflammatory prostaglandins. It is really gambling with your health taking GLA.
I'm going to ask you to explain that mechanism, okay? How does GLA go to inflammatory processes? Which prostaglandins?
Lar
Posted by dessbee on June 9, 2006, at 9:37:15
In reply to Re: You could be histadelic » dessbee, posted by Larry Hoover on June 8, 2006, at 15:16:42
I am pretty sure you already know this.
GLA can be transformed into PGE1 and PGE2.
PGE1 is anti-inflammatory, PGE2 is inflammatory.
The best way to block PGE2 formation is through competitive inhibition with EPA (fish oil fatty acid) since GLA and EPA uses the same enzyme.
EPA uses this enzyme for PGE3 formation, another anti-inflammatory prostaglandin.It is essential to focus on what can heal depressive symptoms, like SJW or Seroctin. When one starts taking to many different supplements it becomes very difficult to conclude which supplements that are working and which are not.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 9, 2006, at 12:00:55
In reply to Re: You could be histadelic » Larry Hoover, posted by dessbee on June 9, 2006, at 9:37:15
> I am pretty sure you already know this.
> GLA can be transformed into PGE1 and PGE2.
> PGE1 is anti-inflammatory, PGE2 is inflammatory.
> The best way to block PGE2 formation is through competitive inhibition with EPA (fish oil fatty acid) since GLA and EPA uses the same enzyme.
> EPA uses this enzyme for PGE3 formation, another anti-inflammatory prostaglandin.The thing I was trying to get out is that the answer you gave was correct or incorrect, depending on these other things.
In an omega-3 deficient state, particularly one deficient in EPA, the massive intake of omega-6 PUFAs we get with all the vegetable oil that is flooding the food chain (industrial food supply) goes on to become inflammatory prostaglandins, via arichidonic acid.
To make GLA a good choice though, you have to block the fatty acid from the enzyme that would take it to arichadonic acid. You just lose the benefit altogether, that way. In fact, you promote the formation of free arichadonate. You want the GLA to go dihomogammalinolenic acid, instead. The anti-inflammatory precursor.
I thought your post was incomplete because you didn't give the factors that govern the trend towards one outcome versus the other.
GLA is *not* contraindicated in North Americans, virtually for certain. It should be the assumed case. The general diet is shifted far far towards an inflammatory state already. GLA is definitely necessary, but you shouldn't begin taking it until you get your EPA stores replenished. Once you've been on fish oil for 2 or 3 months, GLA is going to get shunted into the optimal biochemical pathway. Before that enzyme gets blocked, though, GLA is inflammatory.
Lar
Posted by dessbee on June 9, 2006, at 13:33:00
In reply to Re: You could be histadelic » dessbee, posted by Larry Hoover on June 9, 2006, at 12:00:55
I disagree. Accumulation of DihommoGLA will increase arichadonic acid and result in more PGE2. GLA should be carefully supplemented.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 13, 2006, at 7:47:55
In reply to Re: You could be histadelic, posted by dessbee on June 9, 2006, at 13:33:00
> I disagree. Accumulation of DihommoGLA will increase arichadonic acid and result in more PGE2. GLA should be carefully supplemented.
I still need to explain more, then. You said "will increase arichadonic acid". I say can.
The increase in DGLA under GLA supplementation is spectacular, especially when in the presence of substantial EPA. The increase in AA is trivial, against the background increase already present.
The increase in DGLA concentration, compared to baseline, is by factors of orders of magnitude.
The increase in AA is a tiny percentage, when compared to baseline.
Huge increase in DGLA, but tiny risk compared to the background "normal" fatty acid flux.
Lar
Posted by dessbee on June 14, 2006, at 5:09:37
In reply to Re: You could be histadelic » dessbee, posted by Larry Hoover on June 13, 2006, at 7:47:55
I disagree. DGLA is an inflammatory precursor as well. An increase in AA is NOT trivial since it will lead to more PGE2.
Supplements of GLA increases side effects of omega-6 since we already get too much af these fatty acids in our food.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 14, 2006, at 8:35:33
In reply to Re: Increase in AA is not trivial » Larry Hoover, posted by dessbee on June 14, 2006, at 5:09:37
> I disagree. DGLA is an inflammatory precursor as well. An increase in AA is NOT trivial since it will lead to more PGE2.
> Supplements of GLA increases side effects of omega-6 since we already get too much af these fatty acids in our food.You didn't complete the conditions upon which your assertion is true. It is true if and only if there is insufficient eicosapentaenoic acid present to shunt the DGLA into PGE1 (or whichever one it is....I think it's class one). There is a fork in the road, and you can block one road, just by adding more traffic (in the form of omega-3 fatty acids, which have substantially higher affinities at the desaturases). Without the traffic, you're right. With it, you're not.
Some people have a form of desaturase that has a higher affinity for omega-6. They have to be very careful to adjust their fatty acid intake to permit any omega-3 to make it through the system, or they develop schizophrenia. There are conditions that must be considered, that limit the conclusions that can be reached. All conclusions are conditional. All of them. The hard part is simplifying, without messing up the conclusion.
Against the background of arachidonate from our 30- to 60-fold increase in omega-6 intake over the last century (primarily linoleic acid), which also coincided with a general decrease in omega-3 intake, taking a few hundreds of miligrams of one specific omega-6 is not going to matter. Just one order of fries, man, and that GLA is just swamped. (We were better off eating fries cooked in beef tallow [as MacDonalds once did], than we are eating them cooked in vegetable shortenings.) We eat so much omega-6 fatty acids that most of it is shunted to energy anyway. Unfortunately, that also shunts omega-3 to energy (enzymes are stupid, after all....a substrate is a substrate, to them), instead of into eicosanoids (EPA) and cell-wall composition (DHA).
Adult humans do not convert alpha-linolenic acid to DHA. It's virtually zero. Infants do it remarkably well. Pre-term infants, even better. But we lose the capacity, as we mature. Roughly 70% is lost to respiration. Only a few percent makes it to EPA. DHA stores can actually fall, on high ALNA diets. There is a lot of wrong information, out there.
It's a balancing act. And you can modify the balances. You can change the conditions to completely invert your initial outcomes. You can change a negative into a positive.
It's like sodium. For some people, high sodium intake causes hypertension, which is a cardiac risk factor, of course. So, they developed a simplified rule, to limit sodium for everybody who has a heart condition. Wrong. Wrong simplification. More people die on sodium restricted diets than those on free choice sodium diets. You have to have the condition, sodium hyper-responsivity, for the sodium restriction to apply. Other people are hurt by sodium restriction. They are more likely to suffer fatal heart attacks. And, all that, after suffering through low sodium diets. Maybe that's what kills them, the loss of the simple joy of eating salty food. <that was a wry humour concept>
It's the generalization that I challenge. All conclusions are conditional. There are boundary conditions. You change the conditions, you change the conclusion.
Lar
Posted by LizinManhattan on June 15, 2006, at 15:09:43
In reply to Re: Depression treatment-where to go from here? » LizinManhattan, posted by Larry Hoover on June 6, 2006, at 7:47:22
Hi Larry,
Thank you for all your advice, and the great link. I have been thinking about vitamin C lately. Did you read the recent article on vitamin D?http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-vitamind12jun12,0,1845578.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Fascinating stuff!
Liz
> It could be oxidative stress. You need alphalipoic acid (100-200 mg/day), vitamin C slow-release (2000 mg/day), selenium (200 mcg/day), and you'd probably respond to N-acetyl-cysteine and Enada NADH. Vitamin D might provide a significant boost, too. Up to 4000 IU/day.
>
> You may really need some zinc and chromium. Check out the info here, and see if the shoe fits. http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals.html
>
> The cysteine and Enada require some experimentation. If you wanna go there, I'll help you sort it out.
>
> Lar
Posted by LizinManhattan on June 15, 2006, at 15:11:58
In reply to Re: You could be histadelic » LizinManhattan, posted by dessbee on June 8, 2006, at 12:24:15
Hi,
I read about the histadelic stuff before and I remember there were some things that didn't quite fit for me. I'll have to look at that again.
Thanks!
Liz
P.S. I had low B12 levels- that's why I am taking B12.> I have similar symptoms and have tried all your supplements except Birth control pills (I am a man). The only supplement of yours I can recommend is fish oil (no more than 4 gram).
>
> You could be histadelic (high histamine) considering your allergy.
> Histadelics should avoid b12 and folic acid. These supplements will only make your symptoms worse.
>
> Evening Primrose oil has a short term energizing effect but it wears off and will worsen your depression. The body uses GLA for producing both inflammatory and anti-inflammatory prostaglandins. Your fatigue could be a sign of inflammatory prostaglandins. It is really gambling with your health taking GLA.
>
> My recommendation for depression is st john wort (600 mg) and/or seroctin (700 mg), zinc 20 mg, fish oil (2-4 gram)
Posted by LizinManhattan on June 15, 2006, at 15:13:46
In reply to Re: Depression treatment-where to go from here? » LizinManhattan, posted by dessbee on June 8, 2006, at 12:53:22
I am just taking 50mg plus whatever is in my multivitamin...
> B6 will elevate your histamine levels and worsen your symptoms if you are histadelic; especially if you are taking high doses of B6.
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by dessbee on June 16, 2006, at 5:54:53
In reply to Re: Depression treatment-where to go from here? » dessbee, posted by LizinManhattan on June 15, 2006, at 15:13:46
Well that is roughly about 30 times more than RDA
Posted by dessbee on June 16, 2006, at 6:06:02
In reply to Re: You could be histadelic » dessbee, posted by LizinManhattan on June 15, 2006, at 15:11:58
How much B12 are you taking?
Most supplements are 500 - 1000mg. That is atleast 100 times more than RDA.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 19, 2006, at 9:18:31
In reply to Re: You could be histadelic » LizinManhattan, posted by dessbee on June 16, 2006, at 6:06:02
> How much B12 are you taking?
> Most supplements are 500 - 1000mg. That is atleast 100 times more than RDA.mcg (micrograms)
The RDA is an arbitrary number, which has a very precise and arcane definition. Moreover, the methodolgy by which it is determined enfolds numerous assumptions, any one of which might be false for any single person contemplating their nutrient intake.
The RDA is a defined deficiency state. I am wondering why you are focussing on that value, when there are intakes associated with both acute and chronic treatments that are very different than that value? I don't see the connection between RDA and optimal health.
Lar
Posted by dessbee on June 19, 2006, at 13:15:00
In reply to Re: You could be histadelic » dessbee, posted by Larry Hoover on June 19, 2006, at 9:18:31
Thanks for correction.
I guess it is a question of what is optimal health.
A problem with research concerning most supplements is that they only study it in relation to a specific disease and for a limited period of time. They do not look at how the supplements affects life expectancy.
When studies look at life expectancy there are very few vitamins that are optimal to take in high doses. So far it is only vitamin C that sticks out.
It is quite logic since animal studies have also shown that the best way to increase life expectancy is calorie restriction (includes vitamin restriction) and intermittent fasting.
This is the end of the thread.
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