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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 5 of 5. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by zefdie on June 15, 2006, at 4:05:24
I have seen references on this board to hydergine's effect as a multiple-neurotransmitter agonist, and would like to delve into the subject/discuss it with my doctor. At the moment I am looking for antidepressants that won't leave me flattened or stupid or smother my creativity. I have a Lexapro sample at the ready but am curious as to what the mechanisms of action are for supposed "mood elevating" nootropics. I know there isn't a lot out there, but I've seen such things referenced here and would love more info.
I am bipolar II, heavy on the depression with occassional bouts of anger/anxiety, no mania, no moderate elation, no good moods, no nuthin. Just depression and mixed-state agitated sadness/anger. I am also diagnosed with ADD and am not currently on medicine for that (working on the depression, I guess...and Strattera made me a zombie many years ago when I tried it (w/o a mood stabilizer at the time)). I am currently stabilized on lamotrigine but still devastatingly depressed. I want to research a few novel alternatives before augmenting with an SSRI (and Wellbutrin, unfortunately, makes me dumb). I have used amino therapy in the past to ok results, nothing fantastic. I would like to try that again, perhaps in combination with a hydergine/piracetam combo? I've read extensively about amino/vitamin/mineral therapy, etc, but there just doesn't seem to be much out there about these other substances.
I'm just thinking aloud and am not well-versed in the science at hand. I'm not having much luck with PubMed. I found a fairly inconclusive abstract about the effects of hydergine on the brains of rats:
Pharmacol. 1985;16 Suppl 3:1-17.
Hydergine: interaction with the neurotransmitter systems in the central nervous system.
Markstein R.
(I don't know if it's copyright infringement to post the abstract itself but will do so if it's allowed. Here's a relevant bit:"Based on these in vitro data, it is suggested that Hydergine influences central monoaminergic systems in a dualistic manner. On the one hand, it can compensate for a transmitter deficit in dopaminergic and serotoninergic systems, but at the same time, counteract a possible hyperactivity in the same transmitter systems.")
I have heard varied theories about piracetam. If I remember correctly, it improves the effects of anticonvulsants, but it is acetylcholinergic and therefore bad for depression? I don't know much about acetylcholine, unfortunately.
I have taken piracetam with Adderall and taurine/b6 to very good effect. My mood was much improved and I was lifted entirely out of the cognitive fog depression has had me in for years. This combo was taken with the with lamotrigine (Lamictal, helpful at the time but not yet a therapeutic dose.) Because hydergine reputedly synergizes with piracetam and is dopaminergic, I'm interested in this combo. I just can't find any info about why it may work and by what means.
I will continue to peruse PubMed but my eyes are crossing. Thanks for all your help! I am so grateful for the knowledgeable people on this site.
(PS info about other nootropics is great too)
-Z
Posted by zefdie on June 15, 2006, at 4:51:29
In reply to nootropics as antidepressants: does research exist, posted by zefdie on June 15, 2006, at 4:05:24
Behavioral and neurochemical effects of hydergine in rats:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6118105
Posted by zefdie on June 15, 2006, at 5:57:37
In reply to nootropics as antidepressants: does research exist, posted by zefdie on June 15, 2006, at 4:05:24
Again, apologies for my unscientific, scattershot PubMed searches, especially if this is all tremendously rendundant or irrelevant stuff, or if no one wants to read it. I'm finding it pretty interesting (though I'm too tired to tie anything together). Also, apologies if they aren't links! I notice that html is disabled here? Anyway....
Changes in the brain biogenic monoamines of rats, induced by piracetam and aniracetam:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6535371[Effect of centrophenoxine, piracetam and aniracetam on the monoamine oxidase activity in different brain structures of rats]:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=3137089Effect of piracetam, a nootropic agent, on rat brain monoamines and prostaglandins.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2606534(Is it common for a drug as old as piracetam to show study after study on rats and not people? Sheesh.)
Antidepressant activity of memory-enhancing drugs in the reduction of submissive behavior model:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11959085Brain neurotransmitter receptor binding and nootropic studies on Indian Hypericum perforatum Linn:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12164263Interaction of piracetam with several neurotransmitter receptors in the central nervous system. Relative specificity for 3H-glutamate sites:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=3002398This one is very interesting and addresses the age-contingent effects of various nootropics:
Biogenic monoamine uptake by rat brain synaptosomes during aging. Effects of nootropic drugs.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7835648Evidence that piracetam has an anxiolytic action:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=955991: Act Nerv Super
Effect of piracetam on central serotoninergic processes.
Allikmets LH, Rago LK, Otter MJ.
(No abstract)Other searches turn up studies of leviracetam (Keppra) and bipolar disorder.
Hydergine:
Dopamine receptor profile of co-dergocrine (Hydergine) and its components:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6297930
Ergot alkaloids and central monoaminergic receptors:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=3005775Co-dergocrine (Hydergine) regulates striatal and hippocampal acetylcholine release through D2 receptors:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7911040There is apparently no abstract for this, but it sounds interesting:
[Hydergine in the treatment of chronic psychoses]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=4964710
It's a French study.One consitent thread through many of these is a contention that hydergine only has mood-enhancing properties on older people.
Eh, I'm tired.
Posted by Declan on June 16, 2006, at 3:01:00
In reply to nootropics as antidepressants: does research exist, posted by zefdie on June 15, 2006, at 4:05:24
Hydergine had a good effect on my mood and I took it for a couple of years, sometimes in doses of 13.5mg/d sublingual. It also aggravated my insomnia. Deprenyl had a good effect too, and aggravated insomnia. Rhodiola ditto.
Piracetam and its cousins helped with mental clarity, but I didn't like them much.
(Centrophenoxine seemed even worse.)
Ashwaganda/withania suits me.
Declan
Posted by zefdie on June 16, 2006, at 9:35:37
In reply to Re: nootropics as antidepressants: does research e, posted by Declan on June 16, 2006, at 3:01:00
> Hydergine had a good effect on my mood and I took it for a couple of years, sometimes in doses of 13.5mg/d sublingual. It also aggravated my insomnia. Deprenyl had a good effect too, and aggravated insomnia. Rhodiola ditto.
> Piracetam and its cousins helped with mental clarity, but I didn't like them much.
> (Centrophenoxine seemed even worse.)
> Ashwaganda/withania suits me.
> Declan
>Thanks for the response! I've been delving (in my fairly scientifically illiterate way) into research of piracetam and am finding everything to be very indefinite, particularly in its actions on glutamate receptors -- some sources claim piracetam is a positive modifier, some say it has no action. Same with neurotransmitters.
My concern with that is how it would work with Lamictal, which inhibits glutamate activity and sodium ion channels (if I didn't phrase that right, it's because I've had no sleep whatsoever. Lamictal-induced insomnia). It seems as though piracetam in many ways has opposite effects of Lamictal, yet some studies say it "regulates" glutamate and "regulates" various transmitters depending on whether there is depletion of hyperactivity. According to these studies, piracetam at the right doses evens out glutamate, which would be a great thing for bipolar II. I've checked out about 7,000 abstracts since I posted those cursory, straw-grasping few up there, and can post some of my findings if anyone is interested. Anyone meaning "helpful, patient professors."
Another interesting thing I found is that piracetam is used as an anticonvusant adjunct and has proven to be nicely synergistic with Lamictal/lamotrigine.
I've spent less time on hydergine, primarily because it doesn't seem to have as many as these mystifying, unknown actions and intersections with the med I'm already on. I would definitely like to give hydergine a try. It would be quite a feat if it made my insomnia worse, though. Yikes.
Hydergine has MAO-A and -B effects I wanted to look at in depth. Deprenyl intrigues me quite a bit. Rhodiola I recall having estrogen-like effects or something like that, something not entirely safe for women.
I keep coming across ashwaganda but have yet to go check out what it is.
Forgive the long posts -- I hope they're coherent! I'm just trying to figure out some ideas after suggesting some of this to my pdoc the other day.
Thanks!
This is the end of the thread.
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