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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by blueberry on April 28, 2006, at 19:22:56
In the above thread on DLPA there was some talk of taurine and I had some questions. Thought I would start a new thread on taurine to address that.
I've tried taurine a couple times in small doses (250mg I think?) once or twice a day for a couple days. I did actually feel a sense of calm and peace I hadn't expected. There was noticeable antidepressant action to it also. It surprised me.
I noticed it went very well with tyrosine. It seemed to tame down the tyrosine and yet make it work better at the same time.
But I was afraid to keep taking it because I thought like most inhibitory things such as gaba, benzos, etc, tolerance would build up and it wouldn't do me any good any more and I would get viscious anxiety if I stopped. I hate to get stuck in a place like that.
So, anyone who has used taurine regularly, do you develop tolerance to it? Does it keep working for days, weeks, months, years?
Posted by linkadge on April 28, 2006, at 21:19:46
In reply to Taurine Questions, posted by blueberry on April 28, 2006, at 19:22:56
I had used taurine for a period of 6 months with no tollerance. It seemed to have the same effect for all that time.
Some alternatives you will develop a tollerance to, but others you may not.
Linkadge
Posted by blueberry on April 29, 2006, at 10:47:38
In reply to Re: Taurine Questions, posted by linkadge on April 28, 2006, at 21:19:46
Linkadge, could you help me out with some questions?
What doses did you take and at what times of the day?
What effects were you looking for and what effects did you get?
Why did you stop taking it?
I'm so sick of meds. I'm trying to figure out a possible combo of 5htp tyrosine and taurine, but the doses of each will be very hard to figure out. Especially in the first few days when a lot of weird things will likely happen.
Thanks!
> I had used taurine for a period of 6 months with no tollerance. It seemed to have the same effect for all that time.
>
> Some alternatives you will develop a tollerance to, but others you may not.
>
> Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 29, 2006, at 11:28:54
In reply to Re: Taurine Questions, posted by blueberry on April 29, 2006, at 10:47:38
I took 500mg-1gram. Basically for anxiety, (fear type symtpoms) and mind noise.
I stopped to try some other things. ACtually I plan on going back on it. I think the combination of taurine and fish oil is an effective alternative treatment for bipolar, both are found in fish.
A lot of anticonvulsants lower taurine levels over time. I think this is a side effect and not a theraputic target.Linkadge
Posted by blueberry on April 29, 2006, at 14:19:16
In reply to Re: Taurine Questions, posted by linkadge on April 29, 2006, at 11:28:54
Hmmm. Yeah, I think I took 250mg 2 or 3 times a day, but maybe only needed 2.
Can you tell me more of what you know about taurine? Does it squash down glutamate (I want it to). Does it slow firing of norepinephrine (I think it does, not sure). Does it slow firing of dopamine?
Taurine for fear type symptoms. I like that. I just need more dopamine action at the same time, so that's kind of tricky. Not sure how to do that. Tyrosine gives me a nice dopamine effect, but it also gives me too much norepinephrine which I don't want.
> I took 500mg-1gram. Basically for anxiety, (fear type symtpoms) and mind noise.
>
> I stopped to try some other things. ACtually I plan on going back on it. I think the combination of taurine and fish oil is an effective alternative treatment for bipolar, both are found in fish.
>
>
> A lot of anticonvulsants lower taurine levels over time. I think this is a side effect and not a theraputic target.
>
> Linkadge
>
>
Posted by blueberry on April 29, 2006, at 15:16:11
In reply to Re: Taurine Questions, posted by linkadge on April 29, 2006, at 11:28:54
Sorry for so many questions linkadge. Here's another...
While taurine is calming, it also gives me insomnia. I searched through the archives and noticed that a few other people got insomnia from it also.
Any idea why that might happen sometimes?
Posted by linkadge on April 29, 2006, at 18:55:48
In reply to Re: Taurine Questions » linkadge, posted by blueberry on April 29, 2006, at 15:16:11
As far as the insomnia I'm not sure. Depakote, and other anticonvulsants can give people insomnia too. I noticed that while it wasn't activating, it did seem to change my sleep patterns a little.
I have a theory that things that stabilize the mood also try to stabilize sleeping patterns. (were you sleeping too much?).
Taurine administration facilitates inhibitory processes. I've heard that taurine can also ameliorate electrolite imballences.In terms of neurotransmitters, I think it lowers limbic dopamine, and increases dopamine output in the frontal cortex, (which would work in synergy with caffiene to perhaps enhance cognition). I know it is involved with a whole lot more too. In terms of bipolar disorder, I know that Dr. Andrew Stoll from Harvard commented on its potential use in bipolar disorder. He's the guy who wrote "The omega-3 connection"
I know it is neuroprotective. It also activates IGF-1 which is an emerging target for mood disorders.
All around I think it is a good substance. Sometimes if I'm in a real funk, it can unfunk me very quickly, kindof like a benzo.
Linkadge
Posted by Declan on April 30, 2006, at 15:30:35
In reply to Re: Taurine Questions » linkadge, posted by blueberry on April 29, 2006, at 14:19:16
Hi Blueberry
Have you tried Mucana? That might give you more dopamine without the NE stimulation, maybe.
Declan
Posted by blueberry on April 30, 2006, at 18:18:47
In reply to Re: Taurine Questions » blueberry, posted by Declan on April 30, 2006, at 15:30:35
> Hi Blueberry
> Have you tried Mucana? That might give you more dopamine without the NE stimulation, maybe.
> DeclanThat's a decent idea. My naturopath suggested I take a supplement with mucuna in it, but it has other stuff in it that doesn't agree with me...like rhodiola and high dose magnesium. Straight mucuna would be better. My experience in messing around with dopamine though...like with zyprexa or st johns wort or tyrosine...is that it can get scary if things go wrong.
Posted by Declan on April 30, 2006, at 19:13:42
In reply to Re: Taurine Questions » Declan, posted by blueberry on April 30, 2006, at 18:18:47
The Mucana I've got (Herbal Powers....around 130mg L dopa/cap) seems pretty benign. I can just notice 1 in the morning.
Though if you went by the stuff about L-Dopa in "Awakenings" (Oliver Sachs) [maybe I've got the title wrong?] you'd never touch the stuff. Almost. So I know what you mean.
Declan
Posted by crystee on May 10, 2006, at 16:02:04
In reply to Re: Taurine Questions, posted by linkadge on April 29, 2006, at 11:28:54
Is it safe to take Taurine with a mood stabilizer like Lamictal?
Posted by linkadge on May 11, 2006, at 18:02:32
In reply to Re: Taurine Questions » linkadge, posted by crystee on May 10, 2006, at 16:02:04
I know that taurine has been used in combination with other anticonvulsants to treat epilepsy. I don't know for sure, but I don't see a reason for interaction.
Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 11:56:43
In reply to Re: Taurine Questions » linkadge, posted by blueberry on April 29, 2006, at 14:19:16
> Hmmm. Yeah, I think I took 250mg 2 or 3 times a day, but maybe only needed 2.
>
> Can you tell me more of what you know about taurine? Does it squash down glutamate (I want it to).Yes, it does precisely that.
> Does it slow firing of norepinephrine (I think it does, not sure). Does it slow firing of dopamine?
It is a neuromodulator. It is inhibitory, in a broad manner of speaking, but what it inhibits depends on where it goes in high enough concentration.
Just to compare glutamatergic neurons to dopaminergic, I think the ratio is 50,000,000:10,000, which equals 5,000:1.
Glutamate is ultimately responsible for the true function of the dopaminergic reward pathway, via post-synaptic metabotropic receptors.
> Taurine for fear type symptoms. I like that. I just need more dopamine action at the same time, so that's kind of tricky. Not sure how to do that. Tyrosine gives me a nice dopamine effect, but it also gives me too much norepinephrine which I don't want.
The combination of tyrosine and taurine is perfectly safe. You can mess around with it, almost to the point of absurdity. Your real risk is making yourself feel crappy, but it won't literally hurt you.
Taurine is considered to be conditionally essential. Some people, under some conditions, can't produce all that the body needs. Yes, there is some in many foods. In the corpses of critters, mainly, whether fish, flesh, or fowl.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 12:05:07
In reply to Re: Taurine Questions » linkadge, posted by blueberry on April 29, 2006, at 15:16:11
> Sorry for so many questions linkadge. Here's another...
>
> While taurine is calming, it also gives me insomnia. I searched through the archives and noticed that a few other people got insomnia from it also.
>
> Any idea why that might happen sometimes?I know that taurine and melatonin share some binding sites, so it's possible that taurine antagonizes MT1 receptors in the locus coeruleus.
So, I would leave a good six hours from the last taurine dose before bedtime.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 12:06:45
In reply to Re: Taurine Questions, posted by linkadge on April 29, 2006, at 18:55:48
> As far as the insomnia I'm not sure. Depakote, and other anticonvulsants can give people insomnia too. I noticed that while it wasn't activating, it did seem to change my sleep patterns a little.
>
> I have a theory that things that stabilize the mood also try to stabilize sleeping patterns. (were you sleeping too much?).
>
>
> Taurine administration facilitates inhibitory processes. I've heard that taurine can also ameliorate electrolite imballences.
>
> In terms of neurotransmitters, I think it lowers limbic dopamine, and increases dopamine output in the frontal cortex, (which would work in synergy with caffiene to perhaps enhance cognition). I know it is involved with a whole lot more too. In terms of bipolar disorder, I know that Dr. Andrew Stoll from Harvard commented on its potential use in bipolar disorder. He's the guy who wrote "The omega-3 connection"
>
> I know it is neuroprotective. It also activates IGF-1 which is an emerging target for mood disorders.
>
> All around I think it is a good substance. Sometimes if I'm in a real funk, it can unfunk me very quickly, kindof like a benzo.
>
>
> LinkadgeOne of the main effects of lamotrogine (Lamictal) is to increase taurine concentration in the brain.
It really is totally unfair, the lack of attention given to this neuromodulator, while GABA gets all the press.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 12:08:52
In reply to Re: Taurine Questions » linkadge, posted by crystee on May 10, 2006, at 16:02:04
> Is it safe to take Taurine with a mood stabilizer like Lamictal?
Lamictal leads to taurine increase in the brain. If you respond well to Lamictal, it's probably safe to say that you'll respond well to taurine. Combining the two would have some sort of additive effects. If you do add taurine to Lamictal, follow the mantra: "Start low (dose), and go slow (increased dose)."
Lar
Posted by ravenstorm on May 25, 2006, at 14:54:19
In reply to Re: Taurine Questions » crystee, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2006, at 12:08:52
I have always read that taurine helps with sleep.
I just read an article posted at about.com by a woman whose epilepsy was brought under control by taurine, but it didn't say how much she was taking. She indicated that the research she did said the only side effect was the possibility of peptic ulcer.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2006, at 8:56:46
In reply to Re: Taurine Questions, posted by ravenstorm on May 25, 2006, at 14:54:19
> I have always read that taurine helps with sleep.
Yes, it does. Usually the lower doses, though. Chronic daily use tends to be at higher levels, and that exceeds your brain's capacity to respond to the sleep cycle.
I first used taurine as a sleep aid. It worked great, for a while. And then it more than just faded in effect. It began to impede sleep.
What that suggests to me is that one or more taurine-regulated processes can become saturated by oral supplementation. If you over-supply those processes, the effect inverts. It's a normal way for your body to react, to bring the pendulum back.
The trick is to take the optimal amount, for you. It's an elusive target. It moves around, too.
> I just read an article posted at about.com by a woman whose epilepsy was brought under control by taurine, but it didn't say how much she was taking. She indicated that the research she did said the only side effect was the possibility of peptic ulcer.
I think doctors can't quite fathom that this mega-dosing can be virtually without side effects, so they look especially hard to find something. You won't find good research into the use of taurine, because it cannot be patented. Instead, you'll find medical companies patenting derivatives, and marketing them for specific medical problems. E.g. acamprosate for alcohol abuse.
Compare the structure of acamprosate, and that of taurine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acamprosate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TaurineThe part sticking out the left side of acamprosate, the last bit past the N(itrogen) atom, is an acetyl group. It may modify the ability of the body to take it into cells, as absolute bioavailability is only 11% (i.e. most of it stays in the gut, and you poop it out). Taurine is much more bioavailable than that, so the acetyl group, I believe, slows the drug version down. It has a half-life of 20-33 hours, so it most likely antagonizes some taurine-based mechanisms, such as re-uptake? They haven't really figured out what it does. But taurine is most likely to be the most affected neuromodulator.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2006, at 8:57:38
In reply to Re: Taurine Questions » ravenstorm, posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2006, at 8:56:46
I meant to include the acamprosate monograph.
http://www.fda.gov/cder/foi/label/2004/21431lbl.pdf
Lar
Posted by ocd2010 on July 23, 2010, at 5:37:22
In reply to Re: Taurine Questions » linkadge, posted by blueberry on April 29, 2006, at 15:16:11
> Sorry for so many questions linkadge. Here's another...
>
> While taurine is calming, it also gives me insomnia. I searched through the archives and noticed that a few other people got insomnia from it also.
>
> Any idea why that might happen sometimes?Hi,
I have read that taurine, as well as reducing dopamine and norepinephrine levels (the neurotransmitters responible for excitement), also raises serotonin levels, which itself can cause insomnia in certain people (me for instance!). The insmonia I get from taurine is very similar to that caused by SSRIs where you feel calm and physically tired, yet you are unable to fall asleep.
This can usually be counteracted by a benzodiazepine such as valium, or any GABA enhancing drug.
Hope this helps.
This is the end of the thread.
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