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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on February 26, 2006, at 20:45:07
According to the following, chocolate contains compounds that act as SSRI's.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/nchoc.html
Linkadge
Posted by sdb on March 1, 2006, at 16:40:13
In reply to Chocolate contains SSRIs ??, posted by linkadge on February 26, 2006, at 20:45:07
Possible. I like chocolate very much :-) Chocolate will activate Insulin secretion and increasing permeability for serotonin or serotonin precursors into the brain. There are *many* other substances in the chocolate which have some influence. But I've never heard chocolate and its substances is working somehow weakly similar as ssris showing bigger affinity for serotonin transporters.
~sdb
Posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 18:43:39
In reply to Re: Chocolate contains SSRIs ??, posted by sdb on March 1, 2006, at 16:40:13
Think of it this way. It contains non-negligable portions of serotonin precursors. In addition, like the article suggests it contains compounds acting as serotonin uptake inhibitors and reversable MAO-A inhibitors. The cumulative effect ??
Linkadge
Posted by sdb on March 1, 2006, at 19:38:05
In reply to Re: Chocolate contains SSRIs ??, posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 18:43:39
5-htp can cross the blood-brain barrier more easily than l-trypthophan. l-tryptophan is in competition with other aminoacids using the same transporter. But the effect of some better permeability caused by insulin is not big and long. The Raphe-nuclei are regulating itself the release of serotonin (no more under influence of ecstasy).
Probably there is a cumulative effect of substances from the chocolate acting similar like MAO and 5-ht channel antagonists. Actually that could be an explanation of pleasant influence from chocolate.
But I've never heard chocolate is acting weak like srris and maos. I'll look if there's some more information.~sdb
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 8:34:46
In reply to Re: Chocolate contains SSRIs ??, posted by sdb on March 1, 2006, at 19:38:05
They suggested it was an effect of the beta carbolines. The beta carbolines are responsable for the reduced MAO activity in smokers as well.
So if smoking helps depression, than other substances containing beta carbolines might help.
Linkadge
Posted by nolvas on March 3, 2006, at 6:46:10
In reply to Re: Chocolate contains SSRIs ??, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 8:34:46
This is an interesting write up about beta carbolines as potentiating agents.
http://deoxy.org/neuroalchemy.htm
Apart from some powerful hallucinogenic plants it mentions this >
Beta-carbolines have since been identified in several more plants including Passionflower (Passiflora incarnata), Tobacco (Nicotiana rustica), and even within the human pineal gland.
Posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 9:54:40
In reply to Re: Chocolate contains SSRIs ??, posted by nolvas on March 3, 2006, at 6:46:10
What a great article. I have had some strange effects on the high dose of cocoa, I don't know the amount of beta carbolines I would be consuming.
Some of the prominant effects are.
1. Loss of time. Time seems to stop.
2. Visual disotrtions, cars look like faces etc.3. The third thing that has happened to me is the hardest to describe. It is really weird. It is like objects that I know aren't human/alive, seem to be alive. For instance, the automatic door at the grocery store moves -> it must be alive. Cars and trucks are moving -> they seem like they are living, and alive. I say to myself, no that doesn't make any sence, but then a thought pops into my head, "why doesn't that make any sence"
But its the way that things move that makes it so captivating. It is like the movement has some special significance.I have had some of these symptoms for a long time, mind you I have been eating dark chocolate for a long time. Sometimes SSRI's would give me similar smyptoms.
I've had doctors tell me I should be on AP's because of it. But it just hasn't progressed to the point that I loose touch. Its just kind of amusing. I just chalk it up to some weird biochemical mishaps.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 12:16:25
In reply to Re: Chocolate contains SSRIs ??, posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 9:54:40
Its also interesting that the site refers to the beta carbolines as powerfull reverseable MAOI's.
I know that cigarette smokers can acheive 40-50% MAOI inhibition. Beta carbolines would need to be consumed regularly in order to achieve a steady inhibition of MAO.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 12:24:35
In reply to Re: Chocolate contains SSRIs ??, posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 12:16:25
Is a tyramine sensitive diet required on RIMA medication? and if so, why ?
Linkadge
Posted by nolvas on March 3, 2006, at 18:01:59
In reply to General question about RIMA's, posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 12:24:35
RIMA medications don't require dietary restrictions. However they seem to be less effective than the non reversible MAOIs.
Moclobomide for example is much less effective for treating panic disorder than Nardil or Parnate for example. I don't know the effectiveness in relation to depression for RIMAs.
Posted by linkadge on March 4, 2006, at 14:47:06
In reply to Re: General question about RIMA's, posted by nolvas on March 3, 2006, at 18:01:59
I know that the spice turmeric is a MAOI inhibitor, but I don't know if it is a reversable or irreversable inhibitor.
http://www.moodfoods.com/turmeric.html
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on March 6, 2006, at 20:43:06
In reply to Chocolate contains SSRIs ??, posted by linkadge on February 26, 2006, at 20:45:07
Link it also contains theophylline a very stimulating med. The only reason I know is that I lost my sense of taste and theophylline a bronchcodiator was Rx'd for me at two taste and smell centers. One at Wake Forrest Hospital the other in Washington DC. Goggle loss of taste and smell. Love Phillipa ps I eat a lot to chocolate
Posted by Questionmark on March 12, 2006, at 1:26:37
In reply to Re: Chocolate contains SSRIs ?? » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on March 6, 2006, at 20:43:06
Actually earlier today i just read for the first time that coffee has beta-carbolines as well-- which as Linkadge mentioned at some point are reversible inhibitors of MAO-A and MAO-B. Of course, i have no idea what effect this has actually & practically speaking.
Coffee's beta-carbolines are harman and norharman. i don't think so, but i'm not sure if these are just different names for the same beta-carbolines found in the MAO inhibiting plant psychedelic, and psychedelic-potentiating, syrian rue (Peganum harmala)... (which are harmine and.. harmaline, i believe).
Here i found the abstract i read today:
see www.biopsychiatry.com/coffee-maoi.htm
Interesting. i wonder it's significance if any.
Posted by linkadge on March 12, 2006, at 20:08:50
In reply to Coffee contains beta-carbolines, posted by Questionmark on March 12, 2006, at 1:26:37
Yes, chocolate, tobacco, passionflower, and coffee all contain beta carbolines, which appear to be reversable MAOI's lasting about 6-7 hours.
Cigarette smokers can achieve about 50% inhibiton of MAO activity, I don't know how coffee drinkers/cocoa eaters compare.
Coffee drinkers have a statistically lower incidence of suicide. I wonder if this has anything to do with its beta carboline content.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on March 13, 2006, at 17:58:08
In reply to Chocolate contains SSRIs ??, posted by linkadge on February 26, 2006, at 20:45:07
What other chemicals are found in chocolate since I crave it and used to drink beer nightly. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Questionmark on March 14, 2006, at 3:35:25
In reply to Re: Coffee contains beta-carbolines, posted by linkadge on March 12, 2006, at 20:08:50
> Yes, chocolate, tobacco, passionflower, and coffee all contain beta carbolines, which appear to be reversable MAOI's lasting about 6-7 hours.
>
> Cigarette smokers can achieve about 50% inhibiton of MAO activity, I don't know how coffee drinkers/cocoa eaters compare.
>
> Coffee drinkers have a statistically lower incidence of suicide. I wonder if this has anything to do with its beta carboline content.
>
> Linkadge
***{(Preface: i swear on my worthless life i didn't at all intend on writing nearly so much about nutmeg, or even at all originally. But yeah, it's really long.)}***Wow, that's interesting. Of those mentioned i only knew of passionflower and, just recently, coffee.
That tabacco statistic is especially interesting. i wonder if there are any other (safer) herbal ways of achieving that kind of MAO inhibition-- and without having to down like 8 pots of some kind of tea every day.
i actually used to contemplate what the impact of using a certain amount of nutmeg (which has definite psychactive properties) every day would be. Although i believe that some of its chemicals have been shown (how conclusively i don't know) to be somewhat toxic and/or carcinogenic, i wondered if mild but chronic use might have a positive effect on mood. A friend and i actually used to take it every once in awhile in my teenage years to achieve a moderately giddy, moderately stimulated state.
In higher doses it feels very similar to a cannabis buzz, but-- from what i remember, and for me personally-- better (less paranoia and self-conscious feelings i think) and, for better or worse, longer lasting (can't recall exactly, but i think around 7 or 8 hours.. mAYbe up to like 11 or 12?).
However, getting to that state was also (at least for awhile) a fairly imprecise and complex endeavor, as it's difficult to know exactly how much to take, when it will start to work, IF it will work, and how strongly it will work.*** {Long Aside}***
Get this though! (This is not really relevant to anything other than the "imprecise, complex science" issue of nutmeg intoxication i was speaking of, but it is fascinating to me-- especially on a psychological pharmaco-physiological level, potentially). There were actually TWO instances when i ingested nutmeg to achieve this cannabis-like state...
(and i think they were THE first two times, or two of the very first few times, that i did achieve it-- thereafter i'm pretty sure i got to this state every time i tried, about an hour after ingestion)
... and both times i felt nothing until, after about 2.5 to 4 hours in, coincidentally enough, situations arose that caused me to get extremely stressed out and angry-- like very very angry and frusterated (*i'm not talking about a drug effect here. up to these points and during these situations i was in a completely sober state). And THEN-- BOTH TIMES-- i felt the onset of the cannabis-like nutmeg intoxication almost *immediately* afterward. i've always wondered if this occurred due to the stressed & angry state bringing about biochemical changes that allowed, or caused, the nutmeg to have an effect those times (which i do believe)-- and if so, what those biochemical changes were and.. what not.
Goodness, but anyway, back to where i was.*** {Oh Wait, Another [More Brief] Aside}
There were also times, more recently, when i convinced a few other friends of mine (in an honest and encouraging manner, NOT pushy ["g*d d*mn the pusher"]) to try it, and each of the three just got pretty nauseous and felt nothing psychactive. (Yeah, i felt pretty bad).At considerably higher doses, nutmeg is apparently a powerful, and fairly atypical (from what i gather) psychedelic (i don't like the word "hallucinogen" that much). i have never really tried to get to this level of nutmeg intoxication, and certainly never did, but from anecdotes i've read it does not normally seem to be a positive experience overall, though it can be sometimes (i gather).
At the highest of doses it can actually cause death. How exactly i cannot remember although i should, but my memory sucks. i'm sick of it. But yeah. (And no i don't think it's from doing too much nutmeg).But ANYway, back to my main points about this potent little spice:
i've done quite a bit of reading on this in my years (i know, i'm a winner), and i'm almost positive that there is no consensus as to what nutmeg's pharmacological properties are, or even exactly which chemicals contained in nutmeg are definitely responsible for its psychoactive properties. From what i remember, the constituent chemicals believed to be primarily responsible for its effects are elemicin, safrole, and myristicin, and myristin-- as well as maybe another one or two, i think, other chemicals that are related to myristicin/myristin. Now i can't remember all the complicated details, but for example at least one of those chemicals was/were at least believed to be THE primary one (or more?) responsible for the psychoactive properties, but then there was some study or something where they injected a human or something with the chemical(s) and nothing was experienced-- i think. Nevermind i can't even remember for sure!! But the point is that they don't know. we don't know.
However, i'm pretty sure that nutmeg is thought to have a chemical or chemicals that is/are an adrenergic psychedelic (as mescaline is). i think it's also possible that it has MAO inhibiting properties and . Well yeah. So . i don't even remember if there was more of a point to this.
i wish i could experiment with nutmeg now and then again, though, but as i am on Nardil that would just be unwise.Oh my goodness i can't believe i just spent all this freaking time writing about nutmeg! i am a ridiculous person. Reediculous. i should have at least researched it some again and been sure of the details. god what a waste. and it should not even be in this thread or on this board, should be in pb alternative or pb substance use or somehting. Sorry Dr. Bob. Sorry people-- any of you who were actually strong enough to read through all this.
Anyhow, yeah, Myristica fragrans, it's quite an interesting plant though, i do say.
Posted by nolvas on March 14, 2006, at 5:00:47
In reply to Re: Coffee contains beta-carbolines. (~ nutmeg?) » linkadge, posted by Questionmark on March 14, 2006, at 3:35:25
Have you taken nutmeg in the doses mentioned below? It seems to have a lot of side effects/problems. Nutmeg psychosis! wow now there's something you don't hear every day.
"In low doses, nutmeg produces no noticeable effect on the mind or body. Large doses of 7.5 g or more are dangerous, potentially producing convulsions, palpitations, nausea, eventual dehydration, and generalized body pain. In amounts of 10 g or more it is a mild to medium hallucinogen, producing visual distortions and a mild euphoria similar to that derived from Marijuana. However, use of nutmeg as a recreational drug is unpopular, owing to the potential painful physical side effects, the risk of Nutmeg Psychosis (see below) and the inconveniently long span for which the effects of a single dose can persist. A user will not experience a peak until approximately six hours after ingestion, and effects can linger for up to three days afterwards. Any unpleasant side-effects would persist throughout this period.
A risk of any large-quantity ingestion of Nutmeg is the sudden onset of Nutmeg Psychosis, an acute psychiatric disorder marked by hallucinations, excitement, thought disorder, a sense of impending death and agitation. Some cases have resulted in hospitalization and reportedly few who have experienced the effects of nutmeg poisoning recommend it or repeat the experience.
Even in smaller doses, Nutmeg can be a toxic substance. Ingestion of as little as 5 g may cause dry mouth, fast pulse, fever and flushing. It has amphetamine-like effects and may lead to the ingestion of large volumes of water. There is no specific antidote; the adverse effects wear off after 24 hours (or more) of rest.
Nutmeg is extremely toxic when injected intravenously. Nutmeg can also cause liver damage if used regularly in large quantities. Nutmeg has in the past been used as an abortifacient. Nutmeg can also cause death if used in large quantities, but this not a problem while cooking, since small amounts are used."
Posted by linkadge on March 14, 2006, at 9:56:31
In reply to Re: Coffee contains beta-carbolines. (~ nutmeg?) » linkadge, posted by Questionmark on March 14, 2006, at 3:35:25
Yeah, I've heard about nutmeg. My friend did it, and had some floating sensations but he said it caused the worst hangover.
As far as herbs go, turmeric is a fairly strong reversable MAO inhibitor. Its not beta carbolines at work, but some other chemical in the turmeric.
The chinees herb fo-ti is a fairly strong MAO-B inhibitor. It is really powerfull, and if you combine it with cocoa it feels a lot like marajuanna. But, I was concerned about using it long term since it is an estrogenic herb.
Linkadge
Posted by James K on March 14, 2006, at 12:25:34
In reply to Re: Coffee contains beta-carbolines. (~ nutmeg?), posted by linkadge on March 14, 2006, at 9:56:31
Just throwing this in, because we are on alternative, I tried nutmeg several times when I was a young teenager. More for the high than antidepressant capablities. I don't how much a gram is, I would choke down several tablespoons. I wouldn't feel it till I woke up the next day. Not particularly pleasant but I wasn't choosy back then. I wonder if using the small amounts for cooking more often would cause any mild anything? It's really only good for pumpkin pie. And hard to explain to your mother why there is a new can in the spice rack (half gone).
James K
Posted by Questionmark on March 21, 2006, at 23:44:48
In reply to Re: Coffee contains beta-carbolines. (~ nutmeg?), posted by nolvas on March 14, 2006, at 5:00:47
Hmm. Well, i think this source is mixing up, or is somewhat inaccurate, with what all effects it says occur at the same doses (unless nutmeg just affects me semi-uniquely). For instance, i felt the "euphoria [or intoxication, more precisely] similar to... marijuana" a number of times without ever experiencing the side effects this source mentions as occurring at the same and lower doses And, as i don't know what grams actually constitute either (as with James K, i measured primarily in tablespoons), i cannot say for sure how much nutmeg 10 grams is, but it definitely seems like it would be a lot, from what i know. Ten grams seems like enough to push someone into the psychedelic (for lack of a better word) nutmeg experience, which appears to be far beyond (much more intense, etc.) the relatively simple cannabis-like nutmeg experience. Of course, i could be wrong. i do know that i've never had palpitations or convulsions on nutmeg at cannabis-reflecting doses, or ever for that matter-- although i'm sure it's possible at higher doses.
Thank you for sending that though. It had some interesting information. i forgot how long nutmeg intoxication could supposedly be capable of lasting, and how long it can take to kick in. (Also, James K, that's interesting that it did not affect you when you took it until the next day.)
But yeah, how about that nutmeg psychosis? Crazy stuff. And awful sounding. Hah, but yeah you definitely don't hear that every day. Nutmeg psychosis. i wanna hear that on the news sometime.
> Have you taken nutmeg in the doses mentioned below? It seems to have a lot of side effects/problems. Nutmeg psychosis! wow now there's something you don't hear every day.
>
> "In low doses, nutmeg produces no noticeable effect on the mind or body. Large doses of 7.5 g or more are dangerous, potentially producing convulsions, palpitations, nausea, eventual dehydration, and generalized body pain. In amounts of 10 g or more it is a mild to medium hallucinogen, producing visual distortions and a mild euphoria similar to that derived from Marijuana. However, use of nutmeg as a recreational drug is unpopular, owing to the potential painful physical side effects, the risk of Nutmeg Psychosis (see below) and the inconveniently long span for which the effects of a single dose can persist. A user will not experience a peak until approximately six hours after ingestion, and effects can linger for up to three days afterwards. Any unpleasant side-effects would persist throughout this period.
>
> A risk of any large-quantity ingestion of Nutmeg is the sudden onset of Nutmeg Psychosis, an acute psychiatric disorder marked by hallucinations, excitement, thought disorder, a sense of impending death and agitation. Some cases have resulted in hospitalization and reportedly few who have experienced the effects of nutmeg poisoning recommend it or repeat the experience.
>
> Even in smaller doses, Nutmeg can be a toxic substance. Ingestion of as little as 5 g may cause dry mouth, fast pulse, fever and flushing. It has amphetamine-like effects and may lead to the ingestion of large volumes of water. There is no specific antidote; the adverse effects wear off after 24 hours (or more) of rest.
>
> Nutmeg is extremely toxic when injected intravenously. Nutmeg can also cause liver damage if used regularly in large quantities. Nutmeg has in the past been used as an abortifacient. Nutmeg can also cause death if used in large quantities, but this not a problem while cooking, since small amounts are used."
Posted by Questionmark on March 21, 2006, at 23:56:28
In reply to Re: Coffee contains beta-carbolines. (~ nutmeg?), posted by linkadge on March 14, 2006, at 9:56:31
> Yeah, I've heard about nutmeg. My friend did it, and had some floating sensations but he said it caused the worst hangover.
>Interesting.
> As far as herbs go, turmeric is a fairly strong reversable MAO inhibitor. Its not beta carbolines at work, but some other chemical in the turmeric.
>Yes, i've read this in previous posts of yours. It's fascinating. Too bad that turmeric's also such a powerful anti-inflammatory... er, has such potent NSAID-like properties, at least.
> The chinees herb fo-ti is a fairly strong MAO-B inhibitor. It is really powerfull, and if you combine it with cocoa it feels a lot like marajuanna. But, I was concerned about using it long term since it is an estrogenic herb.
>
>
> Linkadge
Yeah, i remember reading this in one of your posts too. i was really excited by this (the MAO-B inhibiting properties). But i didn't know it was estrogenic! That's terrible. Man, there's always a catch.
Please let me-- well, us-- know if you happen to come upon any other herbs, etc. that may be MAO inhibiting or anything else potentially beneficial. By the way, where in the world did you find out this information?? (i know of a site that it might be, but i cna't remember it and i have to get going)..But anyway, yeah, i guess nutmeg is not a plausible option for daily antidepressant action.
Posted by linkadge on April 4, 2006, at 14:17:52
In reply to Re: Coffee contains beta-carbolines. (~ nutmeg?) » linkadge, posted by Questionmark on March 21, 2006, at 23:56:28
The use of turmeric may be plausable.
It is acutally not that weak a MAO inhibitor.
It is a strong COX-2 inhibitor, but even at a few grams a day you will get MAO inhibition.
I think some study showed that 150mg/kg resulted in 60-70% inhibition of MAO-A.
Also, there is utility for COX-2 inhibitors in depression. I remember reading that celebrex had some effect in refractory mood disorders.
So, overall, the word is not on this on in my oppinion. I'd have to talk to some more herbalists, and professionals.
Linkadge
Posted by Questionmark on April 7, 2006, at 0:48:46
In reply to Re: Coffee contains beta-carbolines. (~ nutmeg?) » Questionmark, posted by linkadge on April 4, 2006, at 14:17:52
> The use of turmeric may be plausable.
>
> It is acutally not that weak a MAO inhibitor.
>
> It is a strong COX-2 inhibitor, but even at a few grams a day you will get MAO inhibition.
>
> I think some study showed that 150mg/kg resulted in 60-70% inhibition of MAO-A.
>
> Also, there is utility for COX-2 inhibitors in depression. I remember reading that celebrex had some effect in refractory mood disorders.
>
> So, overall, the word is not on this on in my oppinion. I'd have to talk to some more herbalists, and professionals.
>
> LinkadgeWow, that's pretty interesting.
150 mg/kg is still like, what, around 10 grams of turmeric per day for the average person to get 60-70% MAO-A inhibition? That's kind of a lot of turmeric. But still, it's not outrageous by any means.
And yeah, maybe even with the extra COX inhibition it would still be okay/safe/etc.
You know turmeric might be excellent though for someone who has, say, depression and arthritis.
Posted by linkadge on April 17, 2006, at 15:56:28
In reply to Re: Coffee contains beta-carbolines. (~ nutmeg?) » linkadge, posted by Questionmark on April 7, 2006, at 0:48:46
This is it. It is a high dose, but it has been used in mice (not to say that equates to human safety). I would need to find out exactly how much cox-2 inhibition one would be achieving at the dose of 10 grams. Another thing to consider is whether one develops tolerance to the cox-2 inhibition.
Inflamation may have a role in depression too. For instance, inflamation blocks neurogenesis. In addition, some chemotheraputic agents are able to trigger severe depression by activating certain cytokins and inkerleukens.
I don't think I would wipe turmeric off the map as a potential treatment. Even if one cannot take a theraputic dose, it may be able to combine it with other reversable MAOI's to achieve a theraputic effect.
For instance, tuermic + beta carbolines, or maybe turmeric + moclobemide.
Linkadge
This is the end of the thread.
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