![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 24, 2006, at 8:37:58
Hi!
I was wondering what exactly is acetylcholine? Okay so its a neurotransmitter, but what exactly does it do? I tried reading up on it in wiki....
Why do people sometimes describe certain pysch drugs as 'feeling anticholinergic'?
And, I have a very vague feeling that I took a supplement containing choline and it made me feel really depressed and I think I read here that it made others feel down too....so why is this??
Any insight greatly appreciated!
Posted by linkadge on February 24, 2006, at 9:09:19
In reply to What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ??, posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 24, 2006, at 8:37:58
Acetylcholine is a neurotransmitter thought to play a role in memory.
Some drugs have the property that they can block certain acetylcholine receptors. This can produce memory loss, dry mouth, constiapation, and other things.
When people say such and such a drug is "anticholineric", generally they are reffering to a cluster of symtpoms they get from the drug blocking certain acetylcholine receptors.
There is a term "dumb drug euphoria". Drugs that block acetylcholine can make you dumb by impairing memory formation, but they seem to cause euphoria for some reason. Delerient drugs like marajuanna, block certain acetychline receptors, impairing memory and causing euphoria.On the other hand, drugs that enhance acetycholine action, like choline, or aricept etc. can improve memory formation, but they also tend to cause depression.
Linkadge
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 24, 2006, at 11:40:31
In reply to Re: What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ??, posted by linkadge on February 24, 2006, at 9:09:19
Thanks Link!!
> On the other hand, drugs that enhance acetycholine action, like choline, or aricept etc. can improve memory formation, but they also tend to cause depression.
Do you know why this is? Or does no-one know yet?
Kind regards, Meri
PS interesting post on cocoa! I eat some 100% cocoa power we had in the cupboard the other day, in the name of personal research, but ain't it half bitter?!
Posted by linkadge on February 24, 2006, at 12:49:34
In reply to Re: What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ?? » linkadge, posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 24, 2006, at 11:40:31
Not really sure why that is. There is a theory that affective disorders are a result of excessive cholinergic function.
Cocoa is very bitter! I buy the powder and disolve small portions in hot water and ingest it throughout the day.
Linkadge
Posted by nolvas on February 24, 2006, at 15:42:54
In reply to Re: What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ??, posted by linkadge on February 24, 2006, at 12:49:34
Maybe you could add some Xylitol to the cocoa to make it a bit sweeter? Xylitol is supposed to be a safe sweetener than can help prevent dental caries as well and only 40% of the calories of sugar. Worth a shot maybe.
Posted by teejay on February 24, 2006, at 20:35:53
In reply to Re: What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ??, posted by nolvas on February 24, 2006, at 15:42:54
My memory (short term) is bloody awful these days.......I stood today in a health store today wanting some inositol (I've been taking it for a while now) but do you think I could think of the name of it at the time???? Its so infuriating too!
Could choline help aleviate this symptom by boosting my acetylcholine system?
Any further info on the acetylcholine systme would be very useful as I dont fully understand it.
Thanks
TJ
Posted by rod on February 24, 2006, at 23:03:58
In reply to Re: What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ??, posted by linkadge on February 24, 2006, at 9:09:19
> Acetylcholine is a neurotransmitter thought to play a role in memory.
>
> Some drugs have the property that they can block certain acetylcholine receptors. This can produce memory loss, dry mouth, constiapation, and other things.
>
> When people say such and such a drug is "anticholineric", generally they are reffering to a cluster of symtpoms they get from the drug blocking certain acetylcholine receptors.
>
>
> There is a term "dumb drug euphoria". Drugs that block acetylcholine can make you dumb by impairing memory formation, but they seem to cause euphoria for some reason. Delerient drugs like marajuanna, block certain acetychline receptors, impairing memory and causing euphoria.
>
> On the other hand, drugs that enhance acetycholine action, like choline, or aricept etc. can improve memory formation, but they also tend to cause depression.
>
>
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>So, are Anticholinergics effective for Parkinson by making people dumb? or is it because they release dopamine?
Posted by linkadge on February 25, 2006, at 9:46:52
In reply to Re: What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ??, posted by rod on February 24, 2006, at 23:03:58
To say that anticholinergics help parkonsons because they make you dumb would be incorrect probably because the cholinergic system of movement is independant of the cholinergic system of intelect. A drug just might happen to be affecting both at the same time.
Although the statement that anticholinergics help depression because they make you dumb, might be a slightly stronger statment, because both actions are tracable to similar brain regions, ie the hippocampus. Perhaps the two actions can be separated, (like the promise of a benzo which doesn't impair intelect.) but perhaps not.
See my post on babble board about how drugs that erase a mouses memory work as well for their depression as current antidepressants.
P.S. Cogentin worked as well for my depression as clomipramine.
Linkadge
Posted by rod on February 25, 2006, at 11:34:26
In reply to Re: What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ??, posted by linkadge on February 25, 2006, at 9:46:52
Well :)
I just was in the mood to disagree without further looking into the differences between the relationsships of acetylcholine-dopamine in mood/intellect and moments regions. :-P
Anyway, I dont really know. But I am asking myself the question, why it takes some "dumb drugs" (I take nortriptyline + clomipramine) to unlock the hurtful memories of my life which contribute to my condition. Without these drugs, my depression krippled my memory, my intellect to a point I was unable to recall and (re)process them!! In my case, they had a restoring effect upon memory and cognition. just my 2 cent.
And I an not saying these drugs will improve memory for "helathy" people, but they can restore memory which is crippled by depression.And no, I am far away from being euphoric. That was just a transient "side effect" when I started these drugs...
anyway, good luck
Rod
Posted by rod on February 25, 2006, at 11:42:16
In reply to Re: What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ?? » linkadge, posted by rod on February 25, 2006, at 11:34:26
And thing I forgot to say ..uuhh damn dumb drugs ;-)
I really appreciate your criticism and opinion on this topic. You make people think... at least me. Its quite "inspirational" to read your post, although I take it with a grain of salt ;) (like I do in genreal here)
And yes, I guess you are partially right about the "dumb" effect. But I dont think this is the mode of action in *my* case, as well as for the majority of depressed persons who respong to tricyclic/anticholinergic medication.
anyway bye :)
Rod
Posted by linkadge on February 25, 2006, at 13:44:18
In reply to Re: What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ?? » linkadge, posted by rod on February 25, 2006, at 11:34:26
Well, the idea that memory formation is restricted to the actions of acetycholine is false. The noradrenergic and serotonergic systems also play a crutial role in memory retrieval and formation, perhaps especially in the case of memories with emotional content.
So your statement that an antidepressant might bring back memories of previous happiness and good times may not be inacurate at all.
The monoamines are also crutial in learning and the formation of new memories, so it is really complex.
If depression is due to an abundance of cholinergic neurotransmission in comparison to the monoamines, then antidepressants may simply be changing limbic metabolism. Your brain stores the crappy memories in an entirely different location than the good memories.
In some experiments, somtimes the "happier mice" tend to forget being shocked, and so they sometimes do the same thing that gets them shocked again.
I don't have the answers, just trying to raise discussion really.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on February 25, 2006, at 13:57:27
In reply to Re: What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ??, posted by rod on February 25, 2006, at 11:42:16
(I may just be talking out of my a** but) for another example, in school, I am able to get things done often, but in the summer I get really depressed because I realize that I don't know what it all means. I mean I am doing it and I can remember the steps (catecholamines) but I really don't know what it means, and that makes me depressed, and worried about future years.When I took the clomipramine, I though a *lot* less about what it all meant, and just *did it*. Initially that may make it seem like a smart drug in that I can get things done, but it may be a dumb drug in that I may be more disposed to future failure because I am not seeing the whole picture, (cholinergic axis?)
Boosting noradrenergic function shifts the ballance from cholinergic to noradrenergic, (ie more doing and less reflecting.)
Just a thought.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on February 25, 2006, at 14:03:27
In reply to Re: What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ??, posted by linkadge on February 25, 2006, at 13:57:27
Another example of what I am talking about is this. I noticed that when I was taking the TCA's, I would do dumb things, like when I was looking for something, I would go in circles. Look in the drawer, look in the closet, look in the drawer again, hmm, lets check the closit, did I check the drawer?
Just of an example of that "shift" form reflection to action.
Linkadge
Posted by rod on February 25, 2006, at 18:41:52
In reply to Re: What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ??, posted by linkadge on February 25, 2006, at 13:44:18
> So your statement that an antidepressant might bring back memories of previous happiness and good times may not be inacurate at all.
did I say that?
my own qoute:
".....unlock the **hurtful** memories of my life which contribute to my condition."
Posted by zeugma on February 25, 2006, at 19:01:52
In reply to Re: What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ??, posted by linkadge on February 25, 2006, at 14:03:27
Acetylcholine, in susceptible individuals, induces depression, and I do not believe this is linked to excessive intellection/reflection. It's really one of the many ideas that have been floated around to explain why some are more depressed than others; it was popular when the TCA's were the most common antidepressants, but dropped when other drugs and neurotransmitters became more fashionable. But never disproved, of course. Nothing in the realm of affective disorders ever appears to be proved or disproved- just dropped when more 'interesting' ideas come along.
But a rat strain, developed when acetylcholine was a neurotransmitter of great interest to theorists, is still here, and note its characteristics:
Neurosci Biobehav Rev. 2005;29(4-5):739-59. Epub 2005 Apr 22.
The Flinders Sensitive Line rat: a selectively bred putative animal model of depression.Overstreet DH, Friedman E, Mathe AA, Yadid G.
Department of Psychiatry, Skipper Bowler Center for Alcohol Studies, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, CB #7178, Thurston-Bowles Bldg 3009, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-7178, USA. dhover@med.unc.edu
The Flinders Sensitive Line (FSL) rats were originally selectively bred for increased responses to an anticholinesterase agent[which increases acetylcholine levels in the nervous system- certain pesticides are such agents, I believe]. The FSL rat partially resembles depressed individuals because it exhibits reduced appetite and psychomotor function but exhibits normal hedonic responses and cognitive function. The FSL rat also exhibits sleep and immune abnormalities that are observed in depressed individuals. Neurochemical and/or pharmacological evidence suggests that the FSL rat exhibits changes consistent with the cholinergic, serotonergic, dopaminergic, NPY, and circadian rhythm models but not the noradrenergic, HPA axis or GABAergic models of depression. However, evidence for the genetic basis of these changes is lacking and it remains to be determined which, if any, of the neurochemical changes are primary to the behavioral alterations. The FSL rat model has been very useful as a screen for antidepressants because known antidepressants reduced swim test immobility when given chronically and psychomotor stimulants did not. Furthermore, rolipram and a melatonin agonist were shown to have anti-immobility effects in the FSL rats and later to have antidepressant effects in humans. Thus, the FSL rat model of depression exhibits some behavioral, neurochemical, and pharmacological features that have been reported in depressed individuals and has been very effective in detecting antidepressants.
*****************************************
It is fortunate that the rats outlive the often flighty theorists that literally spawned them.
-z
Posted by linkadge on February 25, 2006, at 22:00:30
In reply to Re: What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ??, posted by rod on February 25, 2006, at 18:41:52
Sorry, I was referring to the idea that antidepressants can restore memory lost to depression.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on February 25, 2006, at 22:21:13
In reply to Re: What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ??, posted by zeugma on February 25, 2006, at 19:01:52
Yeah, I've heard of the flinders rats.
I don't really think that depression is a result of increased intellegence by any means.
I guess I am just arguing that some of the most effective antidepressants can have some strong deleriant/anticholinergic effects.
It is arguable that the TCA's are superior to other classes of antidepressants for certain depressions, ie severe melancholy.Personally, I never found the SSRI's were much good at relieving me depression. Although, the TCA's, marajuanna, and other anticholinergics were very good at it. Unfortunately I am only of average intellegence, but that being said I can say that the drugs that have helped my depression, have made me dumber. Many times I didn't notice the exactly how the drugs were impairing my memory untill after the drugs were discontinued.
The cholinergic/adrenergic axis theory to affective disorders may extend to bipolar disorder too. Both lithium and depakote increase the sensitivity of the cholinergic axis. WHile they are not smart drugs, they can tend to make manic people more thoughtfull, reflective, and perhaps less impulsive. One of the deficits in bipolar disorder may be in insight, ie bipolars may spend too much money without considering the consequences. So lithium might not make sombody smarter on IQ tests, but by increasing reflection on actions (ie cholinergic enhancement) they may favor long term emotional survival. Lithium also increases brain grey matter. Antidepressants do not do this. Over time, this may equate to a more intricate environmental adaption. But that being said, lithium can be terrably depressing (it was for me)
Just rambling really.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on February 27, 2006, at 19:44:58
In reply to What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ??, posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 25, 2006, at 12:56:16
> We're having a 'discussion' on acetylcholine over on the alternative board, and I was hoping some more people might like to contribute?
>
> Here's a link to the start of the tread....
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20060130/msgs/612749.html
>
> Thanks!!
>
> Meri
Acetylcholine (ACh) is a substance used as a neurotransmitter, and appears throughout the body. It was the first to be discovered. There are several receptors associated with the function of ACh neurons: those that act like nicotine and those that act like muscarine. The nicotine receptor is a subtype of ACh receptor. However, it is the muscarinic ACh receptor that is most responsible for many of the side effects seen with the tricyclic antidepressants.Early in the study of the neurobiology of depression, it was speculated that an imbalance existed between ACh pathways and dopamine pathways. Indeed, they do antagonize one another during sleep. At the moment, I am not convinced that ACh neurotransmission is involved in affective disorders.
- Scott
Posted by fenix on February 27, 2006, at 19:44:58
In reply to What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ??, posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 25, 2006, at 12:56:16
Posted by tealady on March 3, 2006, at 3:04:25
In reply to Re: What exactly is acetylcholine (ACh) ??, posted by linkadge on February 25, 2006, at 14:03:27
> Another example of what I am talking about is this. I noticed that when I was taking the TCA's, I would do dumb things, like when I was looking for something, I would go in circles. Look in the drawer, look in the closet, look in the drawer again, hmm, lets check the closit, did I check the drawer?
>
> Just of an example of that "shift" form reflection to action.
>
> Linkadge
>tri cyclic.. go in cirles,
well looks like they are aptly named:)Do TGA's affect your short term memory.. I get like that sometimes.. I blame the short term memory failure:)
Jan
Posted by linkadge on March 3, 2006, at 12:26:18
In reply to TCA's » linkadge, posted by tealady on March 3, 2006, at 3:04:25
TCA's did a number on my short term memory allright.
Linkadge
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.