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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 16, 2006, at 8:38:18
Its this old one again about avoiding wheat/dairy
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4610998.stm
Hmmm, not exactly a scientific study.
Anyone tried it?
I have to say that since cutting back on sugar I have had more energy.
Posted by Declan on January 16, 2006, at 12:18:18
In reply to 'Diet change cured me of depression', posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 16, 2006, at 8:38:18
Hi Meri
That's what I eat, more or less, and I feel better for it. I lost lots of weight and my allergies settled down a bit. I'm not as depressed as I was, I guess. It can be hard to remember mood accurately.
Declan
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 16, 2006, at 13:30:48
In reply to 'Diet change cured me of depression', posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 16, 2006, at 8:38:18
Hey Declan,
Thats great news. So what do you eat exactly? I would find it really hard to give up grains. I have managed to do no dairy for several months, but have given up now that I don't live near a good health food store where I can buy soya yoghurts and soya milk, or protein.
kind regards
Meri
Posted by mako23 on January 16, 2006, at 14:59:47
In reply to Re: 'Diet change cured me of depression', posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 16, 2006, at 13:30:48
Removing wheat from my diet hasn't helped ocd but its sure given me more energy
Posted by tealady on January 16, 2006, at 17:55:49
In reply to Re: 'Diet change cured me of depression', posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 16, 2006, at 13:30:48
It's not necessary for most to give up grains.
They're usually a healthy part of a good diet too, especially the more unprocessed wholegrains.
Its only a few who cannot tolerate gluten usually.
And you can test that by following and elmination diet for 3 weeks off grains.. or some diets are stricter for 3 weeks and then reintroducing things a group at a time and seeing if you react badly.
I put my reply here.. so i can edit it for typos. I'm having a lot of difficulty with typing lately.http://www.blog.co.uk/index.php/tealady-health/2006/01/16/diet_and_mental_health~478267
Jan
Posted by blueberry on January 16, 2006, at 19:30:09
In reply to 'Diet change cured me of depression', posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 16, 2006, at 8:38:18
I think most of the issue about wheat and dairy is allergy related. Hidden allergies can cause psychiatric problems, and wheat and dairy are some of the more common foods that people might have hidden allergies to.
Just skipping those foods for a couple weeks, and then reintroducing them into your diet again is a simple way to find out if they are good or bad for you.
For some people, wheat and/or dairy are good. For others, they are not good.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on January 16, 2006, at 23:16:37
In reply to 'Diet change cured me of depression', posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 16, 2006, at 8:38:18
> Its this old one again about avoiding wheat/dairy
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4610998.stm
>
> Hmmm, not exactly a scientific study.
>
> Anyone tried it?
>
> I have to say that since cutting back on sugar I have had more energy.
I've had an almost identical story to this guy except for me, it was more ADHD symptoms rather than depression. Cutting out wheat and dairy SIGNIFICANTLY improves my cognitive abilities - especially the "executive" functions - attention span, multitasking, being fully aware of my environment. I'd say this guy is dead on with his thoughts. I recommend EVERYONE on this board to cut out dairy, wheat, rye, barley, oats and corn as well, since corn effects me the same as gluten containing grains. Try cutting those foods out for 2 weeks. See how you feel after 2 weeks of STRICT avoidance. I eat quinoa, buckwheat, potatoes, sweet potatoes, plantains and a few others for my complex carbs. It's not too bad once you get used to it.Anyway, the point is that EVERYONE should give the gluten free / dairy free diet a go. There's TONS of mostly anecdotal stories involving gluten and just about every mental disorder.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on January 16, 2006, at 23:20:38
In reply to Re: 'Diet change cured me of depression', posted by blueberry on January 16, 2006, at 19:30:09
> I think most of the issue about wheat and dairy is allergy related. Hidden allergies can cause psychiatric problems, and wheat and dairy are some of the more common foods that people might have hidden allergies to.
>
> Just skipping those foods for a couple weeks, and then reintroducing them into your diet again is a simple way to find out if they are good or bad for you.
>
> For some people, wheat and/or dairy are good. For others, they are not good.
The key thing to remember is that its not just an allergy, as defined in the medical literature. It's a delayed immune response to food, which defies the definition of allergy. You can't do a skin test on the guy in the story and find out he's allergic to wheat, because he's not. More likely, his intestinal tract is in a state of increased permeability leading to enhanced uptake of longer chain peptides from dairy and gluten containing grains that leads to a delayed immune response that may take hours to days to first begin and it may be weeks after the last exposure to the offending food before health is again achieved.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on January 16, 2006, at 23:24:12
In reply to Re: 'Diet change cured me of depression' » Meri-Tuuli, posted by tealady on January 16, 2006, at 17:55:49
> It's not necessary for most to give up grains.
> They're usually a healthy part of a good diet too, especially the more unprocessed wholegrains.
> Its only a few who cannot tolerate gluten usually.
> And you can test that by following and elmination diet for 3 weeks off grains.. or some diets are stricter for 3 weeks and then reintroducing things a group at a time and seeing if you react badly.
> I put my reply here.. so i can edit it for typos. I'm having a lot of difficulty with typing lately.
>
> http://www.blog.co.uk/index.php/tealady-health/2006/01/16/diet_and_mental_health~478267
>
> JanI think that because the co-morbidity between dairy and grain sensitivies are so common that it's necessary to not only do a grain exclusion diet, but also a diary exclusion diet. I am affected equally by gluten, gluten grains and corn. I do not think that gluten sensitivities should be underestimated or cast off as being unimportant. I think it happens much more often than people know, but it's probably only still a minority of people that this happens in.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 17, 2006, at 5:02:32
In reply to Re: 'Diet change cured me of depression' » Meri-Tuuli, posted by tealady on January 16, 2006, at 17:55:49
Hi Jan!
I read your blog, it was very interesting. I have to say that I agree with you completely on the things you say....
Just one thing, whats a 'goitrogen'? I am intrigued....
And you said that soy makes you more depressed....hmm at the moment I don't eat any, but I have done in the past.
Meri
Posted by Laurie Beth on January 17, 2006, at 16:11:41
In reply to 'Diet change cured me of depression', posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 16, 2006, at 8:38:18
Both casein in milk and gluten break down into opiate-like substances (exorphins) before they break down into constituent amino acids. Many have speculated that failure to completely break down these substances before they leak out of the gut and through the blood/brain barrier is the cause of some or much autism, ADHD, mood disorders, schizophrenia, and so on.
I've been addicted to cheese/yogurt and wheat/gluten (and sugar) since early childhood. I strongly suspect that this is the cause of at least some of my mood, cognitive, and energy problems. But fixing this (or even testing the hypothesis for long enough - a week, 3 weeks, or more - there's a book on austism that says that the exorphins from gluten can remain in tissues for at least 8 months) seems virtually impossible for me, for a number of reasons:
(1) SO MANY foods have unidentified trace amounts of casein and gluten in them;
(2) perhaps because of the addicting properties of these foods, I became a picky eater in childhood and have only recently begun to branch out a little more in my diet; eliminating all dairy and gluten (much less corn, or soy, or nuts, or many other items that some have speculated might also cause similar problems) would leave me with little that I can tolerate eating, and with very, very few sources of protein; and
(3) in any event, even if my problems are due in part due eating these addicting foods, and even if I could somehow avoid eating them for long enough, and find enough substitutes to provide minimally required nutrition, I can't help but wonder if I was drawn to these foods and exorphins for some reason that wouldn't disappear just because I managed temporarily to discontinue eating them - even when a cocaine or heroin addict gets completely off his drug for a period of time, that's hardly an assurance that he'll never crave it, or give in to those cravings, again, right?
However, I decided today to TRY to go off gluten for a few weeks and, if I'm able to do that, then go off casein for 5-7 days (I can dream, can't I?) to see what happens. I decided to try eliminating gluten first because I know for sure I can't do 3 or 4 weeks off both casein and gluten without any direct evidence that it will help, and because it seems that it takes gluten exorphins longer to get out of the system anyway. But I'm feeling pretty hopeless about actually sticking with this plan, even for a week.
As they say in the autism community, the people who crave casein and gluten most are usually the ones who most need to give it up.
If casein and gluten don't mean much to you, it might not hurt to try to really avoid them for a few weeks (it's still not easy, as a practical matter, because of the unidentified trace amounts in many foods, but there are sources on the 'net that will help you identify brand items that are casein-free and gluten-free (CFGF)).
If you crave casein and/or gluten, OTOH, it will be harder to quit ... and more likely to be useful.
Posted by Laurie Beth on January 17, 2006, at 16:15:58
In reply to Re: 'Diet change cured me of depression' » Meri-Tuuli, posted by Laurie Beth on January 17, 2006, at 16:11:41
Also, see
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20051003/msgs/562777.html
and the preceding posts in this thread.
Posted by Declan on January 17, 2006, at 16:51:25
In reply to Re: 'Diet change cured me of depression', posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 16, 2006, at 13:30:48
I mainly eat the food I prepare myself, in which case it is protein (fish is good), fruit and veg. because I react to everything I can't drink wine or beer, or eat foods that are commercially prepared. So nothing from factories. I eat a bit of good bread, maybe rolled oats, no dairy, no wheat, no sugar, no chocolate etc etc.
Declan
Posted by tealady on January 17, 2006, at 20:20:29
In reply to Re: 'Diet change cured me of depression' » tealady, posted by Mistermindmasta on January 16, 2006, at 23:24:12
> > It's not necessary for most to give up grains.
> > They're usually a healthy part of a good diet too, especially the more unprocessed wholegrains.
> > Its only a few who cannot tolerate gluten usually.
> > And you can test that by following and elmination diet for 3 weeks off grains.. or some diets are stricter for 3 weeks and then reintroducing things a group at a time and seeing if you react badly.
> > I put my reply here.. so i can edit it for typos. I'm having a lot of difficulty with typing lately.
> >
> > http://www.blog.co.uk/index.php/tealady-health/2006/01/16/diet_and_mental_health~478267
> >
> > Jan
>
> I think that because the co-morbidity between dairy and grain sensitivies are so common that it's necessary to not only do a grain exclusion diet, but also a diary exclusion diet. I am affected equally by gluten, gluten grains and corn. I do not think that gluten sensitivities should be underestimated or cast off as being unimportant. I think it happens much more often than people know, but it's probably only still a minority of people that this happens in.
I agree totally :-)I found the elimination diet didn't help me or my kids although it did help a friend.
He also avoided wheat and dairy for years, but now he tolerates a small serving occasional..about once a week at the most. You don't get that antibody buildup effect.I was trying to make the point that many may find their story is similar to the guy in the news... (not that gluten and dairy intolerance doesn't play a part, just that its a different point). It was difficult to know where to draw the line in the story :-)
Try to eliminate, OK reduce as much as possible, the artificial chemical part of the diet and exposure to them thru air and water too:-)
I do believe that the cause of the growth in depression and other mental problems as well as fatigue, general feeling off and autoimmune diseases IS most likely the toxins, poisons, pollution, the unnatural chemicals added ..
like the preservatives and fungicides added to bread, (It's in a lot of the grain products)
as well as the removal of nutrients (incl. enyzmes) during processing in processed foods.I'd include in here the fluoride added to water, the mercury in amalgams, the preservatives and fungicides as well as the artifical sweetners, artifical colours, artifical flavours, the removal of enzymes and of other nutrients like vitamins during processing.. including the treatment dairy products receive!
You see here there may be a reason for the grain and dairy sensitivity. By excluding them you are excluding a fair swag of the processing removal of enzymes and artifical preservatives and fungicides etc I am talking about.
Many have found that if they do source thir own milk from just milked cows and grind their own seeds for grain .. they can then tolerate it! see Mercola's site on his milk he offers :-)
It's making the same point I made.. well a part of it.
I feel a lot better if I can milk a cow for milk, get the eggs from the chickens that eat grass and worms out in the paddocks and get topped up with table scraps, cook my own bread from organic flour without preservatives etc..but its just not possible is it for most of the time?
Jan
Posted by tealady on January 17, 2006, at 22:38:19
In reply to Re: 'Diet change cured me of depression' » tealady, posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 17, 2006, at 5:02:32
> Hi Jan!
>
> I read your blog, it was very interesting. I have to say that I agree with you completely on the things you say....
>
> Just one thing, whats a 'goitrogen'? I am intrigued....
>
> And you said that soy makes you more depressed....hmm at the moment I don't eat any, but I have done in the past.
>
> Meri
Thanks for your kind comment Meri:-) I've only been playing with it (and a few others) for a week or less..so its still in development stage :-)
I'm going to add soy and goitrogens ..and put links in that post to them. Be a while though.
I'm trying to keep that blog just for nutrition type ideas.
Got a few things I want to add given the time.
In the meantime, I bet I've written about the them both here b4. I know I have on the thyroid forum. .. its just finding them :-)I found soy really made me hypo..and may have been of the things that started off the depression etc. still if you to be "hyper" it can help if eaten only in moderation :-)
Jan
Posted by tealady on January 17, 2006, at 22:46:18
In reply to Re: 'Diet change cured me of depression', posted by Declan on January 17, 2006, at 16:51:25
> I mainly eat the food I prepare myself, in which case it is protein (fish is good), fruit and veg. because I react to everything I can't drink wine or beer, or eat foods that are commercially prepared. So nothing from factories. I eat a bit of good bread, maybe rolled oats, no dairy, no wheat, no sugar, no chocolate etc etc.
> DeclanMe too Decan. Only I still eat the sugar and I just cant avoid the chocolate..even if it IS processed.. really addicted.
With cigarette smoking I just said I was quitting and quit, many years ago.....choccy?&%$@#*! LOLI collect my own rainwater too.. We have a old tin roof where I live.. its zinc plated iron.
The downpipe broke at the bottom. It makes a great collection point..and then it waters the yard a little!
I avoid the fluoride too this way and chlorine and anything else they want to add to the water, at least for drinking and some of the cooking.Jan
Posted by tealady on January 17, 2006, at 23:04:13
In reply to Re: My blog » Meri-Tuuli, posted by tealady on January 17, 2006, at 22:38:19
Here's one of the soy threads on here
Soy ª Larry Hoover tealady 9/14/03
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/259853.htmlthen see down the bottom to follow the rest of the thread..
Jan
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 18, 2006, at 4:17:57
In reply to Re: My blog » tealady, posted by tealady on January 17, 2006, at 23:04:13
Hi Jan,
Thanks for the replies. This is really interesting.....so basically you say that soy products interfer with thyroid function, which may lead to hypothyroidism? This is amazing news. I was a lodger with a woman in her 60s who has been vegan since her early 20s, and who eats alot of soy, usually at least twice a day in the form of soya milk, tofu, tofu sauages etc. And guess what? She takes thyroxie (or whatever the hormone is called) because she had hypothyroidism. She eats alot of soy.
Meri
Posted by teejay on January 18, 2006, at 10:32:33
In reply to Re: 'Diet change cured me of depression' » Declan, posted by tealady on January 17, 2006, at 22:46:18
"I collect my own rainwater too.."
Its about time you got that roof fixed....a bucket in the middle of the floor is quite a health hazard you know ;-)
TJ
Posted by tealady on January 18, 2006, at 19:43:42
In reply to Re: My blog » tealady, posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 18, 2006, at 4:17:57
> Hi Jan,
>
> Thanks for the replies. This is really interesting.....so basically you say that soy products interfer with thyroid function, which may lead to hypothyroidism? This is amazing news. I was a lodger with a woman in her 60s who has been vegan since her early 20s, and who eats alot of soy, usually at least twice a day in the form of soya milk, tofu, tofu sauages etc. And guess what? She takes thyroxie (or whatever the hormone is called) because she had hypothyroidism. She eats alot of soy.
>
> MeriThat's how it turned out for a few ex-soy-enthusiasts that now have to take thyroid hormone replacement from my reading the hypothryoid forum.
Of course, if you tended to be hyperthyroid , it probably works out well for you, bringing you back down to normal.
I'm not sure of the percentage and I doubt it's ever been studied..or would ever get the funding to be studied, but there's enough people I hear of for soy to be a significant risk.Jan
Posted by Laurie Beth on January 25, 2006, at 18:09:56
In reply to 'Diet change cured me of depression', posted by Meri-Tuuli on January 16, 2006, at 8:38:18
This is the end of the thread.
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