![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 73. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by barbaracat on September 25, 2005, at 17:14:39
Hi All,
I'm trying to dicker around with my NE and dopamine naturally. I understand the chain of events of DLPA converting to Tyrosine, Dopamine to Ne, but wanted some users opinions on this. I know that one seems to work better than the other for some and was hoping to get experiences and any theories you might have.I think I feel edgier on DLPA and had a better effect with Tyrosine, which I believe skips the Dopamine pathway and goes directly to Ne, but what I think I'm actually needing is the dopamine.
Posted by gromit on September 26, 2005, at 16:23:47
In reply to Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences?, posted by barbaracat on September 25, 2005, at 17:14:39
> Hi All,
> I'm trying to dicker around with my NE and dopamine naturally. I understand the chain of events of DLPA converting to Tyrosine, Dopamine to Ne, but wanted some users opinions on this. I know that one seems to work better than the other for some and was hoping to get experiences and any theories you might have.
>
> I think I feel edgier on DLPA and had a better effect with Tyrosine, which I believe skips the Dopamine pathway and goes directly to Ne, but what I think I'm actually needing is the dopamine.Tyrosine made me a little cranky compared to DLPA. Have you tried mucuna pruriens? You get straight l-dopa from that, it works better than the other 2 for me.
Rick
Posted by barbaracat on September 26, 2005, at 16:44:47
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences?, posted by gromit on September 26, 2005, at 16:23:47
Hey, now that's an idea. I know macuna is used as a 'potency enhancer' but didn't realize it was due to L-dopa. Do you have a brand or source you recommend?
I just started Adderall and am having a great response but I'd like to replenish the dopamine stores that get used up. I wonder if anyone has ever used macuna for ADD? Time to Google.
BTW, did you know that fava beans contain very high levels of dopamine? Must be the reason they were Hannibal Lecter's favorite legume ;-)
- Barbara> Tyrosine made me a little cranky compared to DLPA. Have you tried mucuna pruriens? You get straight l-dopa from that, it works better than the other 2 for me.
>
>
> Rick
>
Posted by gromit on September 27, 2005, at 2:26:34
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences? » gromit, posted by barbaracat on September 26, 2005, at 16:44:47
> Hey, now that's an idea. I know macuna is used as a 'potency enhancer' but didn't realize it was due to L-dopa. Do you have a brand or source you recommend?
The ones I've tried are America's Finest HGH Dopa, 250 400 mg doses for around $30. It says to take 6-8 at bedtime, I would take less than that but the few times I took 8 it really knocked me out. The other one is BodyTech Growth Tech, it also has alpha gpc and bacopa monniera. You get much less macuna with that one though and it costs more, about $20 for 120. It says to take 2 doses of 2 capsules but I just take 4 in the morning. Both of them from Vitamin Shoppe, I'll bet you could do better from somewhere like iherb.com if you can wait, I never can.
> I just started Adderall and am having a great response but I'd like to replenish the dopamine stores that get used up. I wonder if anyone has ever used macuna for ADD? Time to Google.On it's own I can't say I really noticed much, combined with ritalin or adderall I can definately feel it. Yes I have ADD.
> BTW, did you know that fava beans contain very high levels of dopamine? Must be the reason they were Hannibal Lecter's favorite legume ;-)No, I didn't know that but I love those movies! I'm not sure that I've ever had fava beans, suddenly I have the urge to sample some.
Rick
Posted by barbaracat on September 27, 2005, at 10:37:45
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences?, posted by gromit on September 27, 2005, at 2:26:34
Hi Rick,
Here's the brand I found that looked good. It seems to have the highest concentration of macuna. The info was interesting. Let me know what you think.http://store.yahoo.com/herbalpowers/macunapruriens.html
I wouldn't be surprised if the fava bean was related to macuna, 'the velvet bean'. Favas have a velvety inner membrane. Something to keep in mind as a side dish when making dinner for someone to, ahem, get them in the mood.
It's an old story and supposedly true, - some researchers were testing L-dopa on elderly patients in a nursing home. The dose was a bit too high and apparently the old guys were chasing the nurses around in their wheelchairs, doing wheelies and the like! That must've been a sight. - Barbara
> > Hey, now that's an idea. I know macuna is used as a 'potency enhancer' but didn't realize it was due to L-dopa. Do you have a brand or source you recommend?
>
> The ones I've tried are America's Finest HGH Dopa, 250 400 mg doses for around $30. It says to take 6-8 at bedtime, I would take less than that but the few times I took 8 it really knocked me out. The other one is BodyTech Growth Tech, it also has alpha gpc and bacopa monniera. You get much less macuna with that one though and it costs more, about $20 for 120. It says to take 2 doses of 2 capsules but I just take 4 in the morning. Both of them from Vitamin Shoppe, I'll bet you could do better from somewhere like iherb.com if you can wait, I never can.
>
> > I just started Adderall and am having a great response but I'd like to replenish the dopamine stores that get used up. I wonder if anyone has ever used macuna for ADD? Time to Google.
>
> On it's own I can't say I really noticed much, combined with ritalin or adderall I can definately feel it. Yes I have ADD.
>
> > BTW, did you know that fava beans contain very high levels of dopamine? Must be the reason they were Hannibal Lecter's favorite legume ;-)
>
> No, I didn't know that but I love those movies! I'm not sure that I've ever had fava beans, suddenly I have the urge to sample some.
>
>
> Rick
>
Posted by gromit on September 28, 2005, at 12:20:54
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences? » gromit, posted by barbaracat on September 27, 2005, at 10:37:45
Hello,
> Here's the brand I found that looked good. It seems to have the highest concentration of macuna. The info was interesting. Let me know what you think.
>
> http://store.yahoo.com/herbalpowers/macunapruriens.htmlWow, that is way more potent than the stuff I've been taking, the one I have now is 15%, I think the other one is 20%. The article seems to line up with what I've read elsewhere. Thanks for the link, I'd like to place an order but I have this thing about instant gratification. I would start it on a day when you don't have much going on, the higher doses made me really sleepy, no ambien needed.
> I wouldn't be surprised if the fava bean was related to macuna, 'the velvet bean'. Favas have a velvety inner membrane. Something to keep in mind as a side dish when making dinner for someone to, ahem, get them in the mood.I'm the one with the low libido although it has improved since stopping AD's. I'll have to see if I enjoy the fava beans, good for you and make you feel good too, they must taste bad or something.
> It's an old story and supposedly true, - some researchers were testing L-dopa on elderly patients in a nursing home. The dose was a bit too high and apparently the old guys were chasing the nurses around in their wheelchairs, doing wheelies and the like! That must've been a sight. - Barbara
Ha, you made my day, definately going to have to get some herbal powers brand now.
Rick
Posted by neuroman on September 28, 2005, at 12:21:50
In reply to Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences?, posted by barbaracat on September 25, 2005, at 17:14:39
Hi,
The positive response I've gotten from taking DLPA and tyrosine is what made me realize I need to support DA/NE function. (SSRI's and other serotonergics never helped me and often made me feel worse.) I usually take 1000mg DLPA and 500mg tyrosine first thing in the morning with a multi-B vitamin and extra B6. I also take some in the afternoon and early evening. I wash them down with grape juice. They've helped with chronic pain but I'm also trying to find the right dopaminergic med to really get the job done. I recently bought a supplement formulation with mucuna pruriens in it but I just realized it also has griffonia seed extract (5htp) in it. Having them both in the same formulation seems kind of counterintuitive to me. As far as the DA/NE conversion pathway, I believe it's:
DLPA -> tyrosine -> L-dopa -> dopamine -> NE
However, DLPA can also be converted directly into PEA (phenylethylamine). This may explain the different effect that DLPA vs tyrosine can have in some people.
Paul
Posted by barbaracat on September 28, 2005, at 13:06:34
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences?, posted by gromit on September 28, 2005, at 12:20:54
>>I would start it on a day when you don't have much going on, the higher doses made me really sleepy, no ambien needed.
**That really surprises me. I've always associated L-dopa with speediness, dopamine, alertness. Perhaps your brand's amount was low and other herbs offset it. I think you said it had bacopa in it? I recall that bacopa made me feel slightly drowsy.
>
>>I'll have to see if I enjoy the fava beans, good for you and make you feel good too, they must taste bad or something.**Nope, they're wonderful. Not always easy to find, a little expensive and tedious to prepare but I love them. You get the fresh bean pods, they look like fuzzy large pea pods, and remove the beans. There's a fuzzy outer skin on the bean that are a little bitter so you have to remove it by boiling the beans for about 1 minute, rinsing in cold water, making a little slit in the skin with your fingernail and then popping the inner bean out. They cook up quickly, about 4 minutes or so. Nice buttered, served with perhaps some liver and onions, a nice bottle of chianti?
>
Just realized that with all the 'fuzzyness' maybe fava beans are macuna pruiens, aka 'velvet bean'. I'll look it up. Let's keep in touch with how it goes with the super power brand. - Barbara
Posted by barbaracat on September 28, 2005, at 13:36:37
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences? » barbaracat, posted by neuroman on September 28, 2005, at 12:21:50
>it also has griffonia seed extract (5htp) in it. Having them both in the same formulation seems kind of counterintuitive to me.
** Thanks for the reply, Paul. I wonder if supplementing with at least some Se precursor at some point in the future isn't a bad idea since D and Se levels are inversely proportional and things might get lopsided. But if you have a negative reaction to Se have you ever looked into methylation? I believe an adverse Se reaction points to over-methylation, at least as far as the Pfeiffer/Walsh material states. Their approach doesn't always make sense to me but there's some interesting ideas there.
>>As far as the DA/NE conversion pathway, I believe it's:
>
> DLPA -> tyrosine -> L-dopa -> dopamine -> NE**Yes, thanks!
>
> However, DLPA can also be converted directly into PEA (phenylethylamine). This may explain the different effect that DLPA vs tyrosine can have in some people.
>
**Have you ever tried DPA or LPA? I like the idea of hitting the PEA pathway but the problem I've encountered with DLPA is that I feel edgy on it. I've read conflicting reports as to which one is less activating - I believe it's DPA - but I want to keep the pain reducing properties and still hit the PEA. Oh shoot, maybe I should just take the DLPA and a benzo. GABA has never has done much for me and I haven't noticed much from using glycine as the precursor either. If there's any neurochemical that I'm deficient in, it would be GABA and I haven't found a way to naturally supplement it. Valerian is supposed to but it doesn't seem to work for me.I also have chronic pain from fibromyalgia and am interested in getting the right mix also.
Interestingly, I just started Adderall and noticed it improves the pain and stiffness pretty remarkably. I wasn't expecting that but have since found out that there's research going on using stimulants in fibromyalgia and finding them successful. I guess that's what the Cymbalta bandwagon is about. Although Cym has helped me for depression, I haven't noticed any pain relief. But I'm not taking very much either.
I'd appreciate any thoughts you have using natural neuropeptide precursors. - Barbara
Posted by barbaracat on September 28, 2005, at 14:10:41
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences?, posted by gromit on September 28, 2005, at 12:20:54
Hi Rick,
Well, the fava bean is not the macuna (probably related, what with all the fuzziness) but is one amazing little bean.I came upon this discussion from a Parkinson's forum and found out all kinds of information - research, recipes, the conversion of how many beans equals how much Sinemet, different strains, even a serious condition called 'favism' in people who lack the enzyme to digest them.
Happy reading:
http://www.parkinsons-information-exchange-network-online.com/archive/098.html
Posted by gromit on September 28, 2005, at 15:49:56
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences? » gromit, posted by barbaracat on September 28, 2005, at 13:06:34
> **That really surprises me. I've always associated L-dopa with speediness, dopamine, alertness. Perhaps your brand's amount was low and other herbs offset it. I think you said it had bacopa in it? I recall that bacopa made me feel slightly drowsy.
The one I took a bunch of was only mucuna, but it was low concentration and kind of an off brand. I took 8 capsules which seemed like a lot even though 6-8 is the recommended dose. A smaller dose in the morning does boost the stimulants, I can tell a difference if I don't take some, haven't tried a mega dose since starting ADD medication.
But we're all so different, I find ritalin almost like what I imagine a benzo is to most people.
> **Nope, they're wonderful. Not always easy to find, a little expensive and tedious to prepare but I love them. You get the fresh bean pods, they look like fuzzy large pea pods, and remove the beans. There's a fuzzy outer skin on the bean that are a little bitter so you have to remove it by boiling the beans for about 1 minute, rinsing in cold water, making a little slit in the skin with your fingernail and then popping the inner bean out. They cook up quickly, about 4 minutes or so. Nice buttered, served with perhaps some liver and onions, a nice bottle of chianti?
Tedious to prepare, I knew there had to be a catch. Will have to keep my eyes open, I don't think I've ever seen any but have never looked.
> Just realized that with all the 'fuzzyness' maybe fava beans are macuna pruiens, aka 'velvet bean'. I'll look it up. Let's keep in touch with how it goes with the super power brand
Yeah I'm going to order some, almost out of the brand I have now. That's an upside of procrastination, never having to consciously cycle supplements or take a med holiday, it just happens naturally.
Rick
Posted by neuroman on September 28, 2005, at 19:54:34
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences? » neuroman, posted by barbaracat on September 28, 2005, at 13:36:37
Hi Barbara,
> I wonder if supplementing with at least some Se precursor at some point in the future isn't a bad idea since D and Se levels are inversely proportional and things might get lopsided.
I think things are already very lopsided. :-) I'm pretty sure most of my physical/mental problems are DA/NE related. (Fatigue, pain, anhedonia, lack of motivation, etc.) Besides the positive response to DLPA/tyrosine, I've also had a QEEG "brain mapping" done which showed a severe dopamine deficiency. Couple this to the fact that my father and uncle both have parkinsonism and I think it's pretty much a no brainer. (I may be a no brainer soon if I don't get back on track.) If at some point I can replenish, so to speak, my dopamine stores, than I think adding in some 5htp might be a good idea.
> But if you have a negative reaction to Se have you ever looked into methylation? I believe an adverse Se reaction points to over-methylation, at least as far as the Pfeiffer/Walsh material states. Their approach doesn't always make sense to me but there's some interesting ideas there.
That's a good point. Are you referring to Dr. Carl Pfeiffer? I have a couple of his books but frankly I'm still trying to figure out all the methylation and phosphorylation stuff. I think there's a way to detect problems with the serotonin pathway by checking urinary levels of xanthurenic acid (a form of tryptophan).
> Have you ever tried DPA or LPA? I like the idea of hitting the PEA pathway but the problem I've encountered with DLPA is that I feel edgy on it. I've read conflicting reports as to which one is less activating - I believe it's DPA - but I want to keep the pain reducing properties and still hit the PEA. Oh shoot, maybe I should just take the DLPA and a benzo. GABA has never has done much for me and I haven't noticed much from using glycine as the precursor either. If there's any neurochemical that I'm deficient in, it would be GABA and I haven't found a way to naturally supplement it. Valerian is supposed to but it doesn't seem to work for me.
I would stick with the DLPA. I think the only D form aminos that the FDA allows to be sold are D-phenylalanine and D-methionine. I think there might be some toxicity issue with just taking the D form of an amino. I seem to recall reading about this but I'm not sure. I'll have to look it up. Raising GABA naturally is a tough one. I know there are a lot of natural formulations out there but how effective they are is questionable. They haven't really helped me that much. Believe it or not, meditation is supposed to raise GABA levels. That's why I just ordered a meditation CD on Amazon. :-)
> I also have chronic pain from fibromyalgia and am interested in getting the right mix also.
Same here...
> Interestingly, I just started Adderall and noticed it improves the pain and stiffness pretty remarkably.
Bingo! I had the same thing happen with bupropion. Soon after I took the first dose I had a wonderful feeling of relief in my body. My kind of surprise. But after the second or third day it started knocking me out so after a few weeks I stopped taking it. But I've been taking lamictal because anticonvulsants are supposed to be helpful with neuropathic pain and it's been making me feel terrible. I've read some abstacts that it may supress dopamine. I felt so bad last week that I popped a bupSR 100. I felt a little relief from it but not much else. However, the next day I ended up having one of my best days in a long time. I think I may be a slow metabolizer and may need to take it every other day. I'm going to put this theory to the test this week.
> I'd appreciate any thoughts you have using natural neuropeptide precursors. - Barbara
Don't know enough about them yet, but whatever I learn I'll pass on to you.
Paul
Posted by barbaracat on September 30, 2005, at 18:26:41
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences?, posted by gromit on September 28, 2005, at 12:20:54
Hi Rick,
Just received my shipment of the potent Macuna from Herbal Powers and popped my first 250mg capsule. It's 4:30 pm here and the insert said best to take it in the morning so we'll see if I'm up all night. I'll keep you posted on how it goes.
- BarbaraCat
>
> > Here's the brand I found that looked good. It seems to have the highest concentration of macuna. The info was interesting. Let me know what you think.
> >
> > http://store.yahoo.com/herbalpowers/macunapruriens.html
>
> Wow, that is way more potent than the stuff I've been taking, the one I have now is 15%, I think the other one is 20%. The article seems to line up with what I've read elsewhere. Thanks for the link, I'd like to place an order but I have this thing about instant gratification. I would start it on a day when you don't have much going on, the higher doses made me really sleepy, no ambien needed.
>
> > I wouldn't be surprised if the fava bean was related to macuna, 'the velvet bean'. Favas have a velvety inner membrane. Something to keep in mind as a side dish when making dinner for someone to, ahem, get them in the mood.
>
> I'm the one with the low libido although it has improved since stopping AD's. I'll have to see if I enjoy the fava beans, good for you and make you feel good too, they must taste bad or something.
>
> > It's an old story and supposedly true, - some researchers were testing L-dopa on elderly patients in a nursing home. The dose was a bit too high and apparently the old guys were chasing the nurses around in their wheelchairs, doing wheelies and the like! That must've been a sight. - Barbara
>
> Ha, you made my day, definately going to have to get some herbal powers brand now.
>
>
> Rick
>
Posted by Declan on October 1, 2005, at 14:58:51
In reply to The amazing fava bean! » gromit, posted by barbaracat on September 28, 2005, at 14:10:41
I'd wondered about macuna judiciosly combined with deprenyl, but figured that it would aggravate my insomnia if it was any good.
Declan
Posted by gromit on October 1, 2005, at 16:15:00
In reply to Macuna hatatta » gromit, posted by barbaracat on September 30, 2005, at 18:26:41
Posted by barbaracat on October 1, 2005, at 16:49:21
In reply to How did it go? (nm) » barbaracat, posted by gromit on October 1, 2005, at 16:15:00
Real nice and smooth! I forgot I'd taken it cause I got busy preparing dinner but after about 2 hours I noticed I was feeling very alert yet calm with a nice feeling of emotional warmth flooding though me.
I was initially concerned it would be too speedy and keep me awake but just the opposite. I slept very well (although I woke up a number of times, which was good cause it helped me remember some very amazing and vivid dreams - a connection?)
I remember thinking last night 'if this is the way it really is, I can see how this would be a very good ADD treatment and could replace stimulant drugs.' It felt like it was doing my brain some good, like nourising rather than depleting. A nice surprise because I was expecting something alot more zippy.
I'm going to pop one right now and find out if it was more than beginner's luck. The order came right away, cost about $20 a bottle so I'd encourage you to try it out and we can swap notes. And hey, thanks for suggesting it! - Barbara
Posted by gromit on October 3, 2005, at 17:28:33
In reply to Re: How did it go? » gromit, posted by barbaracat on October 1, 2005, at 16:49:21
Emotional warmth is a good description of how it affects me too. It's too much NE that makes me twitchy and mucuna sort of balances it out, it makes adderall more tolerable. Not sure how this works since DA turns into NE doesn't it? Oh well, I will order some and let you know if it's better than what I've been taking.
Rick
Posted by barbaracat on October 3, 2005, at 23:06:11
In reply to Re: How did it go? » barbaracat, posted by gromit on October 3, 2005, at 17:28:33
That whole dopamine to NE pathway is a bit of a weak point in my neurotransmitter education. I'm much better with Se since so much is tied up with it physically, emotionally, hormonally (especially the reproductive hormones). But \ what I was wondering when I felt the 'glow' was Like, what is going on here?
I don't know enough about L-dopa vs. dopamine agonists like Wellbutrin (which makes me feel bug-eyed and twitchy). Like, why would WB make me feel this way when a surge of L-dopa leaves me feeling like betstowing blessings upon the human race (as well as cleaning my house)? I have a few questions emailed to the company. They've answered some general stuff and seem agreeable to answering questions. Yes, definitely order some so I have someone to bounce stuff off of. - Barbara
> Emotional warmth is a good description of how it affects me too. It's too much NE that makes me twitchy and mucuna sort of balances it out, it makes adderall more tolerable. Not sure how this works since DA turns into NE doesn't it? Oh well, I will order some and let you know if it's better than what I've been taking.
>
>
> Rick
>
Posted by barbaracat on October 5, 2005, at 20:42:51
In reply to Re: How did it go? » gromit, posted by barbaracat on October 3, 2005, at 23:06:11
An interesting experiment. I haven't been taking Macuna every day for various reasons. This morning I was feeling some anxiety and depression from not being able to get enough exercise for awhile since falling and hurting my back. I was feeling worried, fretful, sad, useless, and about to take a lorezapam to go to sleep when I thought, hmmmmm, I wonder how macuna would affect this axiety. A dopamine agonist is usually the last thing I'd reach for in anxiety but what the heck, be brave for the cause.
Within 1-1/2 hours of taking it I was feeling calm, energized and pretty darn good and even my pain was alot less. This is very good news for me because anxiety is my achilles heel and will bring on every bad thing if it gets out of hand. I don't always get relief from benzos which sometimes don't work or leave me feeling dull.
The macuna didn't feel like a benzo, a stimulant, or anything else. It just felt like going from a bad day to a good mood. Is this counterintuitive or is this how macuna is supposed to feel? - Barbara
Posted by gromit on October 6, 2005, at 12:21:44
In reply to More from the Macuna front, posted by barbaracat on October 5, 2005, at 20:42:51
> Within 1-1/2 hours of taking it I was feeling calm, energized and pretty darn good and even my pain was alot less. This is very good news for me because anxiety is my achilles heel and will bring on every bad thing if it gets out of hand. I don't always get relief from benzos which sometimes don't work or leave me feeling dull.
I absolutely hate benzos, refused to even take ambien until a couple of months ago. That was dumb, ambien is great! Valium is depression in pill form for me.
> The macuna didn't feel like a benzo, a stimulant, or anything else. It just felt like going from a bad day to a good mood. Is this counterintuitive or is this how macuna is supposed to feel? - BarbaraWhat is normal anyway? I'm sure alot of people wouldn't react that way but I also find it very relaxing and yet energizing in moderate doses. It still doesn't make sense to me, DLPA and tyrosine both made me feel kind of uncomfortable even though they did help.
Rick
Posted by gromit on October 6, 2005, at 12:29:52
In reply to Macuna pruriens and deprenyl, posted by Declan on October 1, 2005, at 14:58:51
> I'd wondered about macuna judiciosly combined with deprenyl, but figured that it would aggravate my insomnia if it was any good.
Hah, but you won't know for sure unless you try it. It is completely different than tyrosine or DLPA for me, those always made me feel kind of vaguely uneasy, sort of a bad stimulation. Mucuna feels like jumping into a nice pool on a hot day. Wish I had known about it when I was taking deprenyl. I knew about l-dopa but figured it must surely be illegal to buy dopamine in a pill.
Rick
Posted by barbaracat on October 6, 2005, at 13:32:02
In reply to Re: More from the Macuna front » barbaracat, posted by gromit on October 6, 2005, at 12:21:44
> I absolutely hate benzos, refused to even take ambien until a couple of months ago. That was dumb, ambien is great! Valium is depression in pill form for me.
**Yeah, valium is depression in a pill for me too. Other benzos aren't quite as bad and I'll take lorazepam if I'm needing to chill. But sometimes they don't do a thing and if I take another I end up feeling edgy and uncomfortable. I have paradoxical reactions to a few meds but not consistently. Probably has something to do with what I've eaten and how it affects the cytochrome P-450 enzymes.
**Ah, Ambien. Finally a sleeping med that does what it promises and lets you out of bed in the morning. I was taking it for 3 years, experienced some tolerance and towards the end before I quit needed 20mg. Quitting was very difficult. Talk about rebound insomnia! The whole time I was reducing it I got either no sleep or 3-4 hours max. Finally am off it and as long as things are quiet and conducive to sleep, I get to sleep, stay asleep and have a wonderfully vivid backlog of dreams that troll the psyche and entertain.
> What is normal anyway? I'm sure alot of people wouldn't react that way but I also find it very relaxing and yet energizing in moderate doses. It still doesn't make sense to me, DLPA and tyrosine both made me feel kind of uncomfortable even though they did help.**Yes, it is puzzling. I'd guess that with the aminos, it's not a direct supplementing but a precursor thing where all sorts of other receptors are getting hit along the way, some of which may be too activating. The L-dopa is just that. No conversion, no uptake, just a direct hit of dopamine. But even so, dopamine is excitatory. I dunno, it still doesn't make sense.
-Barbara
Posted by barbaracat on October 6, 2005, at 13:54:06
In reply to Macuna pruriens and deprenyl, posted by Declan on October 1, 2005, at 14:58:51
> I'd wondered about macuna judiciosly combined with deprenyl, but figured that it would aggravate my insomnia if it was any good.
> Declan**I agree with Rick, it's worth trying. BTW, I was taking Deprenyl (drops) for a while and the effect is very different from Macuna. Deprenyl was almost like amphetamine for me. Macuna actually helps me fall asleep as long as I take it early.
Word to the wise - the metabolites of Depreyl show up as methamphetamine on drug tests. I almost lost a job because of a random drug test and since I consider meth as Satan in powdered form, I had no idea why it was showing up. Did some digging and found out that this is a common occurrence. I gave them a scanned image of the bottle and the internet articles and was able to keep my job.
A similar thing happened with TCH. Marijuana showed up even though I was clean. Turns out I was eating a breakfast bar and making a protein shake from a product that contained hemp seeds! Apparently it doesn't usually show up but if the test is sensitive enough it will pick up trace amounts. Once again, I made a copy of the labels and Big Brother was satisfied. Ack, I hated that job.
-Barbara
Posted by TamaraJ on October 7, 2005, at 12:25:05
In reply to Re: Macuna pruriens and deprenyl » Declan, posted by barbaracat on October 6, 2005, at 13:54:06
Can macuna pruriens be taken with a SSRI? I am currently using Paxil CR, and, while it seems to be working quite well for anxiety and apprehension, it has had a minimal effect on depression.
Thanks.
Posted by barbaracat on October 7, 2005, at 15:10:10
In reply to Question for Barbaracat, Gromit, Declan, posted by TamaraJ on October 7, 2005, at 12:25:05
> Can macuna pruriens be taken with a SSRI? I am currently using Paxil CR, and, while it seems to be working quite well for anxiety and apprehension, it has had a minimal effect on depression.
>**I asked the customer center at the place I ordered the herb from mainly about whether my husband, who is on Wellbutrin, could safely supplement or replace it with L-dopa. She seemed a bit confused because she said they always recommend people to use 5-HTP for coming of ADs. I wrote back and said, umm no, Wellbutrin is not a serotonin med but works on dopamine and norepinephrine. I explained about DLPA and L-tyrosine and said that macuna felt alot better than those. She wrote back "Macuna should not be taken with SSRI! Use 5-HTP!! We sell here." Oh well.
Bottom line is I don't know and neither does she. You run into a delicate balance on these meds because dopamine and serotonin work inversely to each other. One of the reasons for the apathy common to SSRIs, which tells me that a little touch of dopamine with an SSRI might balance things out as long as it doesn't aggravate axiety.
The suprise for me with macuna is that it does not aggravate anxiety, in fact acts as a non-dulling axiolytic. In fact, I've stopped taking the low-dose Cymbalta I was on for about 5 days now. Partly to see how I do and partly once I started the macuna I felt like it was nourishing parts of my brain that weren't being addressed before. Like a very gentle but effective stimulant. I too have an anxiety disorder and am very wary of anything that aggravates it.
I'm not suggesting that macuna would be a replacement for Paxil, but I can't see any danger in starting off slowly. The brand I got I recommend highly is at www.herbal-powers.com. You should be able to tell by how you're feeling if it's going to work for you. I felt something after my first pill (I was still on Cymbalta, BTW). - Barbara
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