![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 50. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Sarah T. on March 31, 2005, at 1:59:36
I'd like to hear from everyone who uses or has used melatonin. I just spent about an hour looking through the PB archives. I'd like to hear what people have to say about it now. Over the past ten years or so, dosage recommendations have changed drastically (they've been lowered), and I think that translates into better sleep. Do you take melatonin? If so, do you take it every night or just "as needed" for jet lag, occasional insomnia, etc.? How soon before bedtime do you take it? How many milligrams do you take? What brand do you take?
Thanks!
Posted by Chris O on March 31, 2005, at 18:03:02
In reply to Melatonin experiences, posted by Sarah T. on March 31, 2005, at 1:59:36
Hey, Sarah:
Sorry to keep following you around on these boards and banging the negativity drum. The psychiatrist I am now seeing recommended I take melatonin to help with sleep when he prescribed me Lexapro last year. I've tried it maybe 10 or 15 times at doses of .5mg to 2mg. It made me mildly more sleep, but did not help me get to sleep. Obviously, it had no impact on my "racing thoughts," so that is part of it. Also, I think whatever impact my high night cortisol has on my body outweighs anything the melatonin does. I've also read that melatonin is not effective for people with anxiety disorders only those who have true sleep disorders. You probably know more about this than me. Overall, my experience is that melatonin is too weak for whatever I've got going on with my brain chemistry. Oh, the brand I took was the sublingual Source Naturals. I think they were 1mg tablets.
Good luck,
Chris
Posted by Sarah T. on March 31, 2005, at 23:25:34
In reply to Not strong enough for me » Sarah T., posted by Chris O on March 31, 2005, at 18:03:02
Hi Chris.
Thank you for your reply. Don't worry. I don't think you're being negative; you're being honest. I was worried I might have been too negative when I posted that message about Richard Wurtman and his objection to ingesting 5-HTP. You seemed to benefit from the 5-HTP, but I guess it's best to err on the side of caution until we have more information.
And, speaking of negativity (or is it caution, or fear?), I'm wary of taking exogenous melatonin. I can't help but think, "Melatonin is a hormone produced by my body. I don't know whether I'm deficient in it or not. If I take it as a supplement, will my body's own production of melatonin shut down?" Yet, my circadian rhythms are so whacky, I'm feeling desperate to try it. Actually, I've tried it a few times in the distant past, but I must have taken the wrong dose. I get the feeling there is a very fine between taking too much and not enough.
Posted by Sarah T. on April 1, 2005, at 0:06:35
In reply to Not strong enough for me » Sarah T., posted by Chris O on March 31, 2005, at 18:03:02
Chris, I forgot to ask you whether you felt groggy or more depressed on melatonin? Some people report that it makes them sluggish and depressed. I don't know whether that's a result of taking too high a dose or whether susceptible individuals will feel that way regardless of the dose. In looking through the archives, I see that headaches were also fairly frequently reported. Did you get headaches from it?
Posted by Tabitha on April 1, 2005, at 14:14:35
In reply to Melatonin experiences, posted by Sarah T. on March 31, 2005, at 1:59:36
I've been taking it nightly for many years. It helps me sleep but it isn't as powerful as a sleep med. If I'm really agitated it won't put me to sleep. I've tried various dosages and finally settled on 3 mg as the most effective. I don't get hangover or side effects. Frankly I'm a little worried about the long-term use, but it's the only thing that's kept my sleep halfway regular. I take some drugstore brand.
Posted by Chris O on April 1, 2005, at 15:38:29
In reply to P.S., posted by Sarah T. on April 1, 2005, at 0:06:35
Sarah:
Hmm, I don't think I experienced much of anything with it. No headaches, no depression, no increase in deep sleep...just mild tiredness. It just felt really, really weak to me. I mean, it does do something, it does make my body go in the direction of sleep. I just can't say that it pushes it far enough. Perhaps if I took a really high dosage, something would happen. I kind of get that feeling. At the 1-2mg dosage, the result is just mild tiredness. But I guess everyone is different. It appears for some people (I think I remember reading a post where Larry Hoover said a .5mg dose of melatonin was enough to make him sleep), melatonin really works. I have the same fears regarding melatonin that you do, as it is a hormone, but I get the feeling it's not that dangerous after taking it. That and the fact that every psychiatrist I've seen seems comfortable recommending it. But the stuff just didn't work for me. Darn.
Good luck,
Chris
Posted by KaraS on April 1, 2005, at 20:40:09
In reply to Melatonin experiences, posted by Sarah T. on March 31, 2005, at 1:59:36
I've used melatonin in the past. 1-1.25 mg. seems to do the trick for me. Some nights I don't think it kept me asleep all night though. I tried a 1 mg. extended release pill also. I had a harder time getting to sleep on that but once I fell asleep, it did keep me asleep though I was very hung over the next day.
Posted by Sarah T. on April 2, 2005, at 1:39:30
In reply to Re: Melatonin experiences » Sarah T., posted by KaraS on April 1, 2005, at 20:40:09
Hi. Thanks to all of you for your help. I'm dreading the change to Daylight Savings Time this weekend. I welcome the extra hour of light, but not the lost sleep. Those few states that don't change the time twice a year are looking more and more appealing.
Posted by Sarah T. on April 2, 2005, at 1:52:25
In reply to Re: Melatonin experiences » Sarah T., posted by KaraS on April 1, 2005, at 20:40:09
Hi Kara,
When you say that you were hung over the day after using the extended release version, was that mostly a physical feeling, like grogginess or sluggishness, or did your depression get worse?
Posted by KaraS on April 2, 2005, at 2:09:06
In reply to Re: Melatonin experiences » KaraS, posted by Sarah T. on April 2, 2005, at 1:52:25
> Hi Kara,
>
> When you say that you were hung over the day after using the extended release version, was that mostly a physical feeling, like grogginess or sluggishness, or did your depression get worse?It was grogginess and sluggishness. I didn't get a worsening of depression but I only took it now and then. It might have been different if I took it every night. I don't know. I don't completely understand its relationship to depression. I've heard warnings about it and I've read on the bottles that it's contraindicated for people with depression but then I've also read that it's good for depression.
k
Posted by Sarah T. on April 2, 2005, at 15:15:37
In reply to Re: Melatonin experiences » Sarah T., posted by KaraS on April 2, 2005, at 2:09:06
Have any of you ever had a sleep study to find out exactly what's going on (for example, sleep apnea, restless legs, etc.)? If you have had a sleep study, can you tell me a little bit about it?
Posted by Chris O on April 2, 2005, at 16:14:13
In reply to Tabitha, ChrisO, KaraS and anyone else - question, posted by Sarah T. on April 2, 2005, at 15:15:37
Sarah:
I was just saying to my girlfriend yesterday how I should probably have an "in-hospital" sleep study because my sleep is so screwed up. Anyway, yes, I've had two "at home" sleep studies. They use this little box-like machine, which attaches electrodes and other little thingies to your body to monitor heart rate, snoring, body turning, etc. Both times that I had the study, it said I had "mild sleep apnea," which, I was told, can still be fairly traumatic to sleep. However, both times I had the test, the machine said I didn't snore, and didn't turn in my sleep, which I know that I did, so, I don't know how accurate that "at home" machine is. In addition, I think there is something more going on with me than just sleep apnea. I think, I don't I know, I get "night panic attacks" sometimes, I just wake up thinking I'm dying, heart racing, completely disoriented. It's really scary. Seems to go away when I'm on something to raise my serotonin/neurotransmitters, so.... Anyway, I think sleep study is definitely worth a try. I'd go for the "in hospital" one if you can get it. Seems like a better bet to me.
Good luck,
Chris
Posted by KaraS on April 2, 2005, at 21:13:47
In reply to Tabitha, ChrisO, KaraS and anyone else - question, posted by Sarah T. on April 2, 2005, at 15:15:37
> Have any of you ever had a sleep study to find out exactly what's going on (for example, sleep apnea, restless legs, etc.)? If you have had a sleep study, can you tell me a little bit about it?
No, I haven't but I've wanted to at times in the past. At one point I had restless legs but that was when I was on Effexor. I'm sleeping too well right now and I already know that I have a delayed sleep phase cycle so I don't have much interest in getting a sleep test currently. I'm more interested in what my cortisol levels are when I'm sleeping. When I wake up and I've overslept, even a little bit, I'm so much more depressed. There's got to be a good reason for it.
Posted by Sarah T. on April 4, 2005, at 1:39:11
In reply to Sleep Study » Sarah T., posted by Chris O on April 2, 2005, at 16:14:13
Hi Chris,
I replied to you a while ago, but when I tried to send the message, I got a notice saying, "Web site not responding." Let's see whether this works now.I have never heard of an "at home" sleep study. Was the equipment on loan to you from a hospital or doctor's office?
I wonder what causes those panic-like attacks that you have in the middle of the night. It might be a good idea to have an inpatient sleep study done to see whether they can figure out what causes those episodes. You're not on any traditional medications now, so perhaps now would be a good time to have it done. It's interesting that those panic attacks seem to stop when you're on an AD. How about when you were on Wellbutrin? Did you have those panic attacks then? Have you kept a record of the attacks? Perhaps you should write down when they occur and exactly what you've taken that day, including alternative meds.
I think I should definitely have a sleep study. I have to find out how much they cost and, more important, how much my insurance company will pay. As Kara said, the study will probably just confirm what I already know (i.e., that I have delayed sleep phase syndrome), but I'd like to know what else is going on. For example, it would be important to know whether I have apnea.
Thanks again for your help.
Posted by Sarah T. on April 4, 2005, at 1:54:56
In reply to Re: Tabitha, ChrisO, KaraS and anyone else - question » Sarah T., posted by KaraS on April 2, 2005, at 21:13:47
Hi Kara,
So, if you wanted to find out about your cortisol levels when sleeping, would you go to the hospital for that? Would they wake you up periodically to draw blood or do salivary tests? How accurate are those salivary tests anyway? I don't feel well when I wake up either, but for me, it doesn't seem to matter whether I've overslept or not. I just wish I could carry over into the morning the way I feel the night before. May I ask how much sleep you get? I mean, how much sleep is enough for you?
I know that an inpatient sleep study would confirm a lot of what we already know clinically, but I would like to know whether I have apnea. I have often wondered whether my feeling so awful when I wake up might have something to do with oxygen deprivation. It seems that vigorous exercise is just about the only thing that makes me feel better. And, while endorphins and PEA probably have something to do with that, I can't help but think that getting my brain more oxygenated helps, too. If I just go for a walk, even a long walk, I don't feel the same benefits on my mood that I feel from a more vigorous workout.
Did you say that you used to live in a colder climate? If that was you, do you think the cold weather worsened your depression? I think cold temperatures actually affect me more adversely than lack of light.
Posted by Chris O on April 4, 2005, at 14:29:16
In reply to Re: Sleep Study » Chris O, posted by Sarah T. on April 4, 2005, at 1:39:11
Sarah:
I was just looking up the information for the place I went to get the "box" for the home sleep study. The web address is www.sleepdata.com. The phone number is (619) 299-6299, in San Diego (that's where I am). I don't know if they have offices in other parts of the country. I guess you can check that out if you look over the website (if you're interested). As you said, yes, the equipment was "on loan" to me; they bring it to your house, actually and show you how to use it. It's all quite simple, really. Just a little box and some cords you attach to your body when you sleep. The things is, like I said before, I don't think it's as good as going into the hospital and having them stare at you/video you all night. Plus, I think they do a brain wave thing in the hospital, which this machine didn't do. The one benefit of using the machine is that you get to sleep at home, like you normally do, so your sleep patterns are probably more "normal" (yeah, right, whatever that is). And, the box is cheap, even without insurance. So...if you don't mind blowing a couple hundred bucks, it might be worth a try.
Even if the study already confirms what you know, I think it's definitely worth doing. Even the box studies that I did told me some...well, pretty scary stuff (that I was actually choking every night with sleep apnea, be it ever so "mild"). Especially if you're insurance pays, I would do it.
As to my night panic attacks, they are so random and so...unpredictable, I have no idea what causes them. I have tried to note times when they occured, but I just became frustrated after a while because...there is no rhyme or reason to them. Damn frustrating, to put it mildly. I think I have a wonderful combo of some type of "mild" sleep apnea and panic that occurs at sporadic times when I sleep. I think they are related to my brain chemistry (cortisol and various neurotransmitters) and that when I take something to normalize these chemicals, the apnea and panic go away, for the most part. (For example, they were not really there during the 8 months I was on Lexapro.) And, when I was on my Celexa/Wellbutrin combo in 2000, no, I was not getting them. But...it's confusing because...I was twenty pounds lighter (so, less sleep apnea, I'm thinking), and...I don't know, I can't figure why they're happening except that...my anxiety is increasing as I'm getting older. Anyway....
Let me know how it goes if you get the sleep study done. I'm doing another trial now, of inositol, 10-12 grams a day. It seems to have some effect, but I'll give it a few week trial and see what happens.
Good luck, Sara,
Chris
Posted by KaraS on April 5, 2005, at 1:18:22
In reply to Re: Tabitha, ChrisO, KaraS and anyone else - question » KaraS, posted by Sarah T. on April 4, 2005, at 1:54:56
> Hi Sarah,
>
> So, if you wanted to find out about your cortisol levels when sleeping, would you go to the hospital for that? Would they wake you up periodically to draw blood or do salivary tests? How accurate are those salivary tests anyway? I don't feel well when I wake up either, but for me, it doesn't seem to matter whether I've overslept or not. I just wish I could carry over into the morning the way I feel the night before. May I ask how much sleep you get? I mean, how much sleep is enough for you?
I haven't done much research into cortisol tests since I don't have health insurance and can't afford them. If you read some of Elroy's posts (and/or ask him) you'll get a lot info on the various types of cortisol tests as he has done a lot of research on this topic.I've recently realized that 7 hours is ideal for me to sleep each night. If I have a lot more than that, I get extremely depressed (as opposed to my normal morning depression). Even 8 hours a night is too much. How about for you?
> I know that an inpatient sleep study would confirm a lot of what we already know clinically, but I would like to know whether I have apnea. I have often wondered whether my feeling so awful when I wake up might have something to do with oxygen deprivation. It seems that vigorous exercise is just about the only thing that makes me feel better. And, while endorphins and PEA probably have something to do with that, I can't help but think that getting my brain more oxygenated helps, too. If I just go for a walk, even a long walk, I don't feel the same benefits on my mood that I feel from a more vigorous workout.You're probably right - it can't hurt to find out more about how we sleep. It might tell us some other things that we haven't even considered.
I also feel better after exercising. (There was a time in the recent past when I didn't but fortunately now it's helping again.) Even long walks help me. I haven't been in good enough shape to exercise vigorously.
> Did you say that you used to live in a colder climate? If that was you, do you think the cold weather worsened your depression? I think cold temperatures actually affect me more adversely than lack of light.Yes, I did live in a colder climate - for most of my life. I've only lived in this warm climate for a few years. I also think that the cold affected my moods. I was hypothyroid in my last few years back east so that made it more difficult to tolerate the cold.
Posted by Sarah T. on April 5, 2005, at 23:33:33
In reply to At-home sleep studies, other stuff » Sarah T., posted by Chris O on April 4, 2005, at 14:29:16
Hi Chris,
Thank you so much for the information on the at- home sleep monitor. I will definitely look into it. Maybe I can do the at-home study as well as the in-hospital one. It will probably take me a while to get the ball rolling for the latter one.I was thinking about those night-time panic attacks that you get occasionally, and I think it might be better not to take melatonin until more is known about it. The reason I say that is because of something Spriggy mentioned here a few days ago. She said that when her husband took melatonin, he woke up in the middle of the night, gasping for air. I vaguely remember a few other people mentioning that in the distant past, but I think they had been on very high doses. You don't have asthma or any other respiratory problems, do you?
Can you tell me a bit more about the inositol? Does it have an anti-anxiety effect? If so, maybe I should try it, too.
Posted by Sarah T. on April 6, 2005, at 0:03:04
In reply to Re: Tabitha, ChrisO, KaraS and anyone else - question » Sarah T., posted by KaraS on April 5, 2005, at 1:18:22
Hi Kara,
That's interesting that you feel best on seven hours of sleep. Unfortunately, I think I need more than that; however, oddly enough, when I'm not on any antidepressants, I can get by on less, and when I am on AD's, I seem to need more in order to function. For example, I'm not on any AD's now. There have been several times in the last few months when I got only 4-5 or 6 hours of sleep, which is much less than I need, and yet, I was still able to function. I couldn't have done anything that required a lot of abstract thought, but I was able to get through the day and do what I had to do. Contrast that with the times when I was on Celexa, which was disruptive to my sleep. I spent many more hours in bed on Celexa, but I think very few of those hours were spent in any good, restful, restorative sleep. When I got only 4, 5 or 6 hours of sleep on Celexa, I was completely non-functional. That occurs with some other AD's also. I'm starting to believe that the REM-suppression that occurs with many AD's may not be good for me. Or, perhaps some other stages of sleep are so disrupted that I'm severely impaired the following day.
I think that was really wise of you to move to a warmer climate. I'm seriously considering doing that in the next few years. I can't take the long cold winters anymore.
Posted by KaraS on April 6, 2005, at 3:07:19
In reply to Re: Tabitha, ChrisO, KaraS and anyone else - question » KaraS, posted by Sarah T. on April 6, 2005, at 0:03:04
> Hi Kara,
>
> That's interesting that you feel best on seven hours of sleep. Unfortunately, I think I need more than that; however, oddly enough, when I'm not on any antidepressants, I can get by on less, and when I am on AD's, I seem to need more in order to function. For example, I'm not on any AD's now. There have been several times in the last few months when I got only 4-5 or 6 hours of sleep, which is much less than I need, and yet, I was still able to function. I couldn't have done anything that required a lot of abstract thought, but I was able to get through the day and do what I had to do. Contrast that with the times when I was on Celexa, which was disruptive to my sleep. I spent many more hours in bed on Celexa, but I think very few of those hours were spent in any good, restful, restorative sleep. When I got only 4, 5 or 6 hours of sleep on Celexa, I was completely non-functional. That occurs with some other AD's also. I'm starting to believe that the REM-suppression that occurs with many AD's may not be good for me. Or, perhaps some other stages of sleep are so disrupted that I'm severely impaired the following day.
>
> I think that was really wise of you to move to a warmer climate. I'm seriously considering doing that in the next few years. I can't take the long cold winters anymore.
Hi Sarah,That's a good point about possibly needing more sleep time when taking an antidepressant. I don't know if I needed more time when I was on Effexor. It could be. I was under the impression then that I needed at least 8 hours of sleep. I'll have to check it out next time I'm on a significant dosage of an AD. I wonder if maybe the doxepin is actually working to make sleep better. I sleep sooooo soundly on this stuff and I have good dreams.
Warmer weather is great but there are other things that you have to put up with out here. It's very expensive and crowded. Traffic is horrible.... but you won't freeze!
Posted by Sarah T. on April 7, 2005, at 0:52:29
In reply to Re: Tabitha, ChrisO, KaraS and anyone else - question » Sarah T., posted by KaraS on April 6, 2005, at 3:07:19
Hi Kara,
Thanks for your reply. I'm feeling a bit under the weather. I'll be back tomorrow or the next day.Take care.
Sarah
Posted by Sarah T. on April 8, 2005, at 1:56:36
In reply to Re: Tabitha, ChrisO, KaraS and anyone else - question » Sarah T., posted by KaraS on April 6, 2005, at 3:07:19
Hi Kara,
Do you happen to know whether Melatonin suppresses progesterone? I thought I read that it can suppress estrogen, which may or may not be desirable. About 8 years ago, a friend of mine, who was trying to get pregnant, was taking melatonin every night. She was unable to get pregnant, and it wasn't until several years later that she figured out that the melatonin was making her infertile. These hormones are so powerful, and they affect so many systems, directly and indirectly.
I'm glad to hear the doxepin is helping you so much. How many mg are you taking now? If you are still on that low dose, do you find that you are able to keep the anticholinergic side effects to a minimum? Did those palpitations stop?
Have you ever taken nortriptyline? If so, how was it? I took it many years ago for a brief time. Nortriptyline has a so-called "therapeutic window" or narrow dosage range within which it is effective. I never seemed to be able to find the correct window. I might try it again some day.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2005, at 11:00:23
In reply to Tabitha, ChrisO, KaraS and anyone else - question, posted by Sarah T. on April 2, 2005, at 15:15:37
> Have any of you ever had a sleep study to find out exactly what's going on (for example, sleep apnea, restless legs, etc.)? If you have had a sleep study, can you tell me a little bit about it?
I just had one. There is no way, no possible way, to duplicate a clinical sleep study with home recording units. I had a ponytail of wires off of my head. Four sensors on my face (glued right into my beard, too). One of those oxygen sensors on the finger. A special device around my chest to measure respiration. EKG leads on my chest. I think there were about thirty recordings of my sleep.
They said I didn't meet the threshold for treatment, despite years of non-restorative sleep. At least I know I don't have sleep apnea, or PLMD, or RLS....but I awakened 27 times in the night. I remember two. I get too much REM sleep, and I usually wake from a dream, when I do awake.
I have no idea if any of this can be controlled with melatonin, or how melatonin affects the five stages of sleep. I took some the night of the test, but I don't use it any more.
I'm on a trial of zopiclone right now (instead of temazepam). It usually works well, but some nights I'm awake for hours (like last night). I don't know what's up with that.
I think my sleep quality has improved a little bit with the zopiclone.
Lar
Posted by KaraS on April 10, 2005, at 17:06:57
In reply to Kara S, posted by Sarah T. on April 8, 2005, at 1:56:36
> Hi Kara,
>
> Do you happen to know whether Melatonin suppresses progesterone? I thought I read that it can suppress estrogen, which may or may not be desirable. About 8 years ago, a friend of mine, who was trying to get pregnant, was taking melatonin every night. She was unable to get pregnant, and it wasn't until several years later that she figured out that the melatonin was making her infertile. These hormones are so powerful, and they affect so many systems, directly and indirectly.
>
> I'm glad to hear the doxepin is helping you so much. How many mg are you taking now? If you are still on that low dose, do you find that you are able to keep the anticholinergic side effects to a minimum? Did those palpitations stop?
>
> Have you ever taken nortriptyline? If so, how was it? I took it many years ago for a brief time. Nortriptyline has a so-called "therapeutic window" or narrow dosage range within which it is effective. I never seemed to be able to find the correct window. I might try it again some day.
Hi Sarah,
I don't know whether melatonin suppresses progesterone. I haven't studied it that thoroughly. I only use it once in a while so haven't bother to do extensive reserach. I think you're wise to be concerned though. Since it is a hormone it could affect a lot of other things.Yes, the doxepin at 25 mg. does keep the side effects to a minimum. I still am aware of the anticholinergic dumbing down effect unfortunately. But right now if I went off of it without a good back-up plan, I'd be in serious trouble. So for now I'll stick with it. I have an increased appetite which I hate but I don't have orthostatic hypotension and rarely have a problem with dry mouth. The palpitations have stopped (thanks for asking) and the EKG was normal so I'm no longer worried about taking it with regard to cario effects. (I really believe now that the excessive use of the light box had something to do with causing the palpitations.) My sleep is incredible on doxepin - sound, restorative, great dreams. The problem is that it makes it even harder to get up in the morning. How is your sleep currently? The last time you posted to me you were going through a bad time. I hope that you're doing better now.
I took nort. many years ago. I couldn't tolerate it. It gave me tachycardia on even a small dosage. My resting heart rate was about 100 bpm and I wasn't even at a therapeutic level yet. I was really disappointed because I think it's a good drug. Someday I might try it with a beta blocker if I'm out of other options and I can get a physician to prescribe them both. Several people on this board have had good results with nort. (as you're probably aware of). Might be worth trying it again. The therapeutic window can be a nuisance but at least you don't have to keep upping the dose a million times before giving up on it.Take care,
Kara
Posted by Sarah T. on April 14, 2005, at 19:12:46
In reply to Re: sleep study question » Sarah T., posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2005, at 11:00:23
Hi Larry. Thanks for your reply. Wow! You woke up 27 times during the study??!! I wonder whether that happens regularly or whether the many awakenings might have been due to the discomfort of sleeping in an unfamiliar place with all those electrodes and wires getting in the way.
Am I correct in understanding that you did take melatonin on the night of the sleep study? Why? If you don't take it regularly, why did you take it the night of the study? How much did you take? Did you take regular or sustained release?
You said that you are now trying Zoplicone. Is that also known as "Sonata" or is it "Ambien"?
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.