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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by banga on February 7, 2005, at 11:30:42
Do I remember correctly that amino acids compete with each other and need to be taken separately, in the absence of proteins? Or is it only certain ones that compete?
I am thinking specifically about tyrosine, dlphenylalanine, and taurine. And 5HTP.
Posted by jujube on February 7, 2005, at 17:23:19
In reply to Spacing amino acid intake, posted by banga on February 7, 2005, at 11:30:42
As I understand it, the only thing to be avoided is taking L-Tryptophan (and, I would assume 5-HTP) with other amino acids. You should wait 30 minutes or more before taking other aminos. I have read that, if you do combine, they will still help, but not as effectively.
And, I am sure you already know this, but I will include it anyway. Try to take your aminos at least 20 minutes before or 90 minutes after a meal in which you eat protein otherwise the protein in your food will compete with the amnio acid and will not get into your brain (at least that is what I have read).
> Do I remember correctly that amino acids compete with each other and need to be taken separately, in the absence of proteins? Or is it only certain ones that compete?
> I am thinking specifically about tyrosine, dlphenylalanine, and taurine. And 5HTP.
Posted by banga on February 7, 2005, at 22:27:18
In reply to Re: Spacing amino acid intake » banga, posted by jujube on February 7, 2005, at 17:23:19
Thanks!
Good! I do take the 5HTP alone....See that is what confuses me...if you cant take aminos with protein due to the competition, wouldnt say taurine and tyrosine compete with each other if taken at the same time?
Posted by jujube on February 8, 2005, at 0:40:43
In reply to Re: Spacing amino acid intake » jujube, posted by banga on February 7, 2005, at 22:27:18
Hmmm, I don't know. I have been so much reading and research about amino acid supplementation, not to mention nutrition and exercise, for months now, and the only caveat I've come across is not taking Tryptophan or 5-HTP with certain other aminos. I'll do a search to see if I can find anything. Otherwise, let's hope Larry will see this and be able to offer some words of wisdom.
Sorry I can't be of more help.
> Thanks!
> Good! I do take the 5HTP alone....
>
> See that is what confuses me...if you cant take aminos with protein due to the competition, wouldnt say taurine and tyrosine compete with each other if taken at the same time?
>
>
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 8, 2005, at 7:59:12
In reply to Spacing amino acid intake, posted by banga on February 7, 2005, at 11:30:42
> Do I remember correctly that amino acids compete with each other and need to be taken separately, in the absence of proteins? Or is it only certain ones that compete?
> I am thinking specifically about tyrosine, dlphenylalanine, and taurine. And 5HTP.Certain ones compete. From a psych perspective, the issue is the so-called blood/brain barrier. It is really nothing more than a layer of membrane (skin) that restricts large molecules from entering the brain, most of the time. To overcome that restriction, and to obtain essential molecules for brain function, transporters line the membrane. The competition is at these transporters.
For those competing amino acids, the line-up is at the Large Neutral Amino Acid Transporter (LAT1). The competition is between eight amino acids: valine, methionine, isoleucine, leucine, tyrosine, histidine, phenylalanine, and tryptophan. Not only is it a competition, but different members of this group have different affinities for the transporter.
Picture it like this. Imagine that a busy train station has only one door. Eight buses pull up at the same time, each containing a pure population of those eight different amino acids. The aminos all rush for the door, and there's a bottleneck. Some are pushing and shoving, whereas others are more polite. The polite ones tend to get in last. (That's what happens after a meal.)
In the competition at LAT1, tryptophan has lowest affinity (it's the most polite). Moreover, it is found at relatively low concentrations in food (its bus is usually half empty, while others are crammed like sardines). The best way to ensure uptake of any of this group of amino acids is to schedule a bus to arrive when the others are not around, i.e. take a pure supplement on an empty stomach.
There's another factor to consider, though, when you're thinking about tryptophan uptake into the brain. Amino acid uptake from the bloodstream is regulated by insulin. By far, the greatest tissue consumers of amino acids are muscles. Insulin turns on their high-capacity amino acid pumps, and the blood is rapidly depleted of the aminos from any recent meal.....with one exception, tryptophan. Muscles don't use tryptophan, so the blood becomes relatively enriched in tryptophan, allowing it more ready access to the brain uptake pump, the LAT1. To optimize this effect, have a high-protein low-carb meal, and half an hour to an hour later, have a sugary-sweet dessert.
There are other amino acids that do not require pumping. They dissolve right through the blood-brain barrier. Taurine is one of those (as far as I know). It is possible that 5-HTP is one, as well (not to say it doesn't get pumped, too). Glutamic acid (glutamate) goes straight through, as does glutamine (different amino with a similar name). But supposedly GABA (derived from glutamate) does not. I suppose we may all have different "porosity" of our blood brain barriers, as well......some have more restrictive access than others do. The real test is trying different amino acids, and noting their effects (or lack thereof).
Lar
Posted by banga on February 8, 2005, at 8:43:12
In reply to Re: Spacing amino acid intake » banga, posted by Larry Hoover on February 8, 2005, at 7:59:12
Thanks Larry That is truly useful to know. And answers my main q--if it is wise to tke tyrosine and phenylalanine separately to get higher benefit.
But do we know for sure that taking them in supplement form actually can cross the blood brain barrier? As you said, there is evidence that GABA cannot....
Posted by jasmineneroli on February 8, 2005, at 13:28:39
In reply to Re: Spacing amino acid intake, posted by banga on February 8, 2005, at 8:43:12
Banga:
> But do we know for sure that taking them in supplement form actually can cross the blood brain barrier? As you said, there is evidence that GABA cannot....** My Pdoc absolutely insists that GABA supplements cannot cross the blood-brain barrier, the molecules are too large to permeate the membrane. He is very interested in me taking Picamilon to see if Niacin bound GABA can penetrate. (He had never heard of Picamilon before). I think there is still some debate about whether or not niacin IS an effective transporter of GABA.
I haven't started Picamilon yet, since I'm giving my body a supplement "wash-out" period for now. But my Pdoc has given me to mid-March to figure out if Picamilon might work.
Lar's explanation about the amino absorption is excellent!!!
Hope your experiments are successful!
Jas
Posted by cherylann on February 8, 2005, at 18:20:38
In reply to Spacing amino acid intake, posted by banga on February 7, 2005, at 11:30:42
Posted by banga on February 8, 2005, at 18:44:06
In reply to Re: Spacing amino acid intake » banga, posted by jasmineneroli on February 8, 2005, at 13:28:39
> Lar's explanation about the amino absorption is excellent!!!
Yes I know--I printed it out!
Can I ask: what are you doing to do a supplement clean-out? Do you do this periodically?
Posted by jasmineneroli on February 8, 2005, at 23:16:04
In reply to Re: Spacing amino acid intake » jasmineneroli, posted by banga on February 8, 2005, at 18:44:06
Well, I work in the fitness industry, so some of the supplements I take, I "cycle" through, because I find my body doesn't continue to respond to them the same way. It's a bit like "poop-out" with psychiatric drugs! An example of this would be CLA. I find it helps to promote lean muscle, but it just doesn't work all the time, my body seems to adjust to it, sort of like "tolerance".
What I have referred to here in this thread though, is the supplements I've been experimenting with to help my GAD problems. I have started trying supplements to help as an alternative about a year ago, and have just found myself to be too confused!!! I can't tell what's helping and what's harming, sometimes!!
I think I know some supplements that work, but I've been too haphazard lately in adding more "stuff" to my mix.Basically I'm trying to be more controlled and scientific. I've been to eager for a "quick fix", because my endless drug trials have not been all that successful, with the exception of Klonopin. So I'm trying all over again, in a more scientific way!
Sorry, very long answer to a short question.
Best wishes
Jas
Posted by banga on February 9, 2005, at 0:39:41
In reply to Re: Spacing amino acid intake, posted by jasmineneroli on February 8, 2005, at 23:16:04
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 14, 2005, at 11:16:59
In reply to Re: Spacing amino acid intake, posted by banga on February 8, 2005, at 8:43:12
> Thanks Larry That is truly useful to know. And answers my main q--if it is wise to tke tyrosine and phenylalanine separately to get higher benefit.
> But do we know for sure that taking them in supplement form actually can cross the blood brain barrier? As you said, there is evidence that GABA cannot....Oh, absolutely, supplemental tyrosine and phenylalanine cross the blood brain barrier. They are pumped in. By taking them on an empty stomach (recommended) the supplement enters the blood in high relative concentration, and can monopolize the transporter. This permits a more drug-like physiological effect than can be derived from diet, e.g. protein consumption.
Lar
Posted by banga on February 22, 2005, at 8:46:46
In reply to Re: Spacing amino acid intake » banga, posted by Larry Hoover on February 14, 2005, at 11:16:59
Thanks Larry (again, belatedly). I have before read quite a bit on supplements--but as I said I simply can't remember it all (maybe that is partly the B12 deficiency I had)--
I also am not a person that feels the difference of supplements readily. People say they took x and felt Y noticeably....my body is pretty dense in that way, not giving me the signals in a way I can see a difference.
This is the end of the thread.
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