![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Francesco on November 24, 2003, at 14:39:19
I just post this to give a chance to all the babblers and tell how things can change suddenly (wheter you are or not BPII ;-)
Here is my recent story.
About two weeks ago I tried for the very first time l-tyrosine following the kind suggestion of DSCH. I took a 500mg capsule on an empty stomach and I was amazed and confused by the results.
It managed to target many of my ADHD syntoms like nothing else did (Ritalin at low doses included). I quit it also because I felt SO different from usual and I was *scared*.
(the irrational supposition that if you feel good there is something wrong maybe)Then I tried triptophan 50 mg twice a day. Something happened but not so much. I didn't like the effects on tryphtophan on my body, it made me sleepy and slightly depressed.
I tried also EPA-DHA (200+100) twice a day. It made me hypo in a couple of days. A lot of pleasure, but didn't manage to do anything done.
Yesterday I was disperated because I thought that the only way to go back to life was going back to meds and that I was wasting my time with this stuff.
Today my mind was pure hell while I remembered L-tyrosine laying in the drawer. I took less than 500mg because it was afternoon and I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. Within an hour my mood was normal and I was explaning my father how to drive to a place reading at the same time the map of the city (normally this is the typical thing I don't even try to do).
I know all this sounds a bit melodramatic but I'm happy. I tried to express at the same time the joy I feel (not to feel obliged anymore to consider meds as the unique alternative) and saying something about my (very short) supplement story.
Any comment about my reaction to meds are welcome. From tomorrow I'll have to deal with the big deal of trying to understand what can work with my brain. Next post questions for Larry Hoover ;-)
Posted by JLx on November 24, 2003, at 18:47:24
In reply to back on tyrosine: my short suplement story, posted by Francesco on November 24, 2003, at 14:39:19
Glad to hear you had good success with tyrosine this time and avoided the dreaded meds. :)
I take tyrosine too, with good result. One thing I like about the amino acids is that they are so fast acting.
> I just post this to give a chance to all the babblers and tell how things can change suddenly (wheter you are or not BPII ;-)
>
> Here is my recent story.
> About two weeks ago I tried for the very first time l-tyrosine following the kind suggestion of DSCH. I took a 500mg capsule on an empty stomach and I was amazed and confused by the results.
> It managed to target many of my ADHD syntoms like nothing else did (Ritalin at low doses included). I quit it also because I felt SO different from usual and I was *scared*.
> (the irrational supposition that if you feel good there is something wrong maybe)
>
> Then I tried triptophan 50 mg twice a day. Something happened but not so much. I didn't like the effects on tryphtophan on my body, it made me sleepy and slightly depressed.
>
> I tried also EPA-DHA (200+100) twice a day. It made me hypo in a couple of days. A lot of pleasure, but didn't manage to do anything done.
>
> Yesterday I was disperated because I thought that the only way to go back to life was going back to meds and that I was wasting my time with this stuff.
>
> Today my mind was pure hell while I remembered L-tyrosine laying in the drawer. I took less than 500mg because it was afternoon and I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. Within an hour my mood was normal and I was explaning my father how to drive to a place reading at the same time the map of the city (normally this is the typical thing I don't even try to do).
>
> I know all this sounds a bit melodramatic but I'm happy. I tried to express at the same time the joy I feel (not to feel obliged anymore to consider meds as the unique alternative) and saying something about my (very short) supplement story.
>
> Any comment about my reaction to meds are welcome. From tomorrow I'll have to deal with the big deal of trying to understand what can work with my brain. Next post questions for Larry Hoover ;-)> I just post this to give a chance to all the babblers and tell how things can change suddenly (wheter you are or not BPII ;-)
>
Posted by Francesco on November 27, 2003, at 15:53:59
In reply to Re: back on tyrosine: » Francesco , posted by JLx on November 24, 2003, at 18:47:24
Hi JLx. My ask you how much tyrosine do you take per day ? Do you take something else ? I'm new to the suplement world and I'm a bit overwhelmed by all this information. It seems like there's a thousand things to try !
Posted by JLx on November 28, 2003, at 7:24:13
In reply to Re: back on tyrosine: » JLx, posted by Francesco on November 27, 2003, at 15:53:59
> Hi JLx. My ask you how much tyrosine do you take per day ? Do you take something else ? I'm new to the suplement world and I'm a bit overwhelmed by all this information. It seems like there's a thousand things to try !
I know what you mean. :) I get intimidated by how much it seems I "need to know" sometimes, but find this board enormously helpful.
I take 500 mg tyrosine in the morning on an empty stomach regularly, but I'm also experimenting with an additional 500 mg some days. I started out at 500, went up to 1,000 and even 1,500 for a short time. (I've only been at this for about 10 weeks now.) I've also added phenylalanine sometimes too, or in place of, to see if it felt different.
I haven't come to any firm conclusions from all that experimentation so far except that 500 mg of tyrosine a day is a "given". I take it with P-5-P that includes a bit of magnesium. I like this formula better than the previous brand I bought that just had P-5-P.
I take lots of other stuff too, like 9 gm of fish oil for my brain. Selenium to counteract mercury leakage from tooth fillings. Magnesium so that everything in my body/brain works better. Boron for my bones and also because it may increase estrogen a bit. Alpha lipoic acid as an antioxidant. DHEA because I'm getting old. ;) Vit. C, E, B vitamins, including B 12 as methylcobalamin, as antioxidants, for stress, and for "general purposes". And TMG for the methylation process. I find that TMG makes me feel more "smoothed out" than I felt on just the tyrosine alone but I'm in the process of experimenting with how much of that to take too. I probably take some other things too that I can't recall right now, but those are the essentials.
In general, all this together with a no sugar, no diary, no grains, low carb diet, has helped enormously.
I appreciate your comments about your own experimentation, by the way. I'm generally not that sensitive when I take something or the effects are just not that noticeable, except over time when it's easy to lose sight of the whole picture, so something like your observation that tyrosine made you personality more "hard" was very helpful. I was feeling that too but couldn't put my finger on it. I feel more softened since I've added the TMG. (I think probably the TMG leveled off the dopamine/serotonin balance.)
Since you are so sensitive to supplement, maybe you need to experiment with much smaller-than-typical quantities.
Posted by tealady on November 28, 2003, at 13:10:35
In reply to Re: back on tyrosine: » Francesco , posted by JLx on November 28, 2003, at 7:24:13
> > Hi JLx. My ask you how much tyrosine do you take per day ? Do you take something else ? I'm new to the suplement world and I'm a bit overwhelmed by all this information. It seems like there's a thousand things to try !
>
> I know what you mean. :) I get intimidated by how much it seems I "need to know" sometimes, but find this board enormously helpful.me 2
>
> I take 500 mg tyrosine in the morning on an empty stomach regularly, but I'm also experimenting with an additional 500 mg some days. I started out at 500, went up to 1,000 and even 1,500 for a short time. (I've only been at this for about 10 weeks now.) I've also added phenylalanine sometimes too, or in place of, to see if it felt different.I take 375mg in the morning and rest of 500mg capsule of tyrosine about noon...actually just woke up at 5am and took some for the tooth pain..working now (6am).
On some days I'll take 500mg in the morning and 500mg at noon..if I'm going thru a hypo period
The day I tried 2000mg, it was pretty intense..hard to describe.. How did you feel on 1500mg?
I've got some phenylanine, but haven't really tried it as yet.>
> I haven't come to any firm conclusions from all that experimentation so far except that 500 mg of tyrosine a day is a "given". I take it with P-5-P that includes a bit of magnesium. I like this formula better than the previous brand I bought that just had P-5-P.What brand is that you use. I have to get my P5P from the US...not on the Aussie list, but I'm allowed to import it. Won't be doing another order for a while but good to hear suggestions.
>
> I take lots of other stuff too, like 9 gm of fish oil for my brain. Selenium to counteract mercury leakage from tooth fillings. Magnesium so that everything in my body/brain works better. Boron for my bones and also because it may increase estrogen a bit. Alpha lipoic acid as an antioxidant. DHEA because I'm getting old. ;)DHEA I found 20mg too much(cortisol), so now trying 10mg. I read somewhere that 10mg or even 5mg is enough for most females...there doesn't seem to be much info on DHEA, and even less on 7keto-DHEA. I haven't tried the 7-keto as yet.
In Oz, we have to get DHEA on doc's script.Vit. C, E, B vitamins, including B 12 as methylcobalamin, as antioxidants, for stress, and for "general purposes". And TMG for the methylation process. I find that TMG makes me feel more "smoothed out" than I felt on just the tyrosine alone but I'm in the process of experimenting with how much of that to take too. I probably take some other things too that I can't recall right now, but those are the essentials.
>
> In general, all this together with a no sugar, no diary, no grains, low carb diet, has helped enormously.
>
> I appreciate your comments about your own experimentation, by the way. I'm generally not that sensitive when I take something or the effects are just not that noticeable, except over time when it's easy to lose sight of the whole picture, so something like your observation that tyrosine made you personality more "hard" was very helpful.
I find it does make me a bit more agressive or assertive..some find it makes them too agressive.
So if I look like I'm getting too aggressive you all have to jump on me, OK?
I think I needed to be a bit more aggressive..it's helping get some medical tests done etc., it probably looks like I need some Betaine..but I'll leave that for a while...next thing to try, I think.I was feeling that too but couldn't put my finger on it. I feel more softened since I've added the TMG. (I think probably the TMG leveled off the dopamine/serotonin balance.)
>
Jan
Posted by JLx on November 29, 2003, at 5:10:53
In reply to Re: back on tyrosine: » JLx, posted by tealady on November 28, 2003, at 13:10:35
> I take 375mg in the morning and rest of 500mg capsule of tyrosine about noon...actually just woke up at 5am and took some for the tooth pain..working now (6am).
> On some days I'll take 500mg in the morning and 500mg at noon..if I'm going thru a hypo period
> The day I tried 2000mg, it was pretty intense..hard to describe.. How did you feel on 1500mg?Well, I can't say exactly. I have a hard time pinpointing how I feel, particularly in response to some one thing in this "kitchen sink" experiment I've been doing. Usually I just register that somethng feels better or worse...but in this case, I think it was that I was more irritable and actually felt more stressed.
> I've got some phenylanine, but haven't really tried it as yet.
I think it does have an affect on appetite. One thing I noticed about that too, is that it makes me physically warmer. I think it did raise my blood pressure more too though, more so than tyrosine. (Prozac and Zoloft used to raise my blood pressure too.) Lately when I've checked it, it was normal...possibly due to adding the TMG. (My local supermarket pharmacy has one of those self-serve booths so I check it whenever I'm in there.)
> What brand is that you use. I have to get my P5P from the US...not on the Aussie list, but I'm allowed to import it. Won't be doing another order for a while but good to hear suggestions.NOW brand. I got it from iherb primarily because it was the cheapest. It has: Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2)17 mg, Coenzyme Vitamin B-6 33 mg (from 50 mg Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate) Magnesium 100 mg (as 75% Magnesium Oxide and 25% Magnesium Taurinate) Nothing special there, perhaps it is just the bit of magnesium with it that makes it feel better.
> DHEA I found 20mg too much(cortisol), so now trying 10mg. I read somewhere that 10mg or even 5mg is enough for most females...there doesn't seem to be much info on DHEA, and even less on 7keto-DHEA. I haven't tried the 7-keto as yet.Yes, I think I'm going to start taking less every day instead of 25 mg every other day. I will have to open that little capsule which will be a pain.
After I read this interesting post, http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031122/msgs/283957.html, I was looking up info on cytokine/inflammation and ran across this James South article, http://smart-drugs.net/ias-DHEA.htm :
"A recent study found a strong inverse correlation between human serum DHEA-S levels and interleukin 6 (IL-6) levels. IL-6 is one of many cytokines, or immune cell "quasi-hormones," which collectively regulate immune activity. High interleukin levels are implicated as a causal factor in many diseases, such as rheumatoid arthritis, osteoporosis, B-cell cancers, atherosclerosis and Parkinson's disease. (7) Interleukin 6 levels tend to dramatically increase with aging, just as DHEA-S levels decrease with aging. (6) After studying 120 healthy human subjects, 15-75 years of age, R.H. Straub and colleagues concluded: "decreased DHEA serum concentrations during aging or inflammatory diseases will be paralleled by a significant increase in interleukin production. Thus, we conclude that the decrease in DHEA levels is a deleterious process, in particular during chronic inflammatory diseases."(7)"
So this one reason for its antidepressive effect...decreased inflammation? I thought perhaps it was just the increased estrogen and testosterone.
> Vit. C, E, B vitamins, including B 12 as methylcobalamin, as antioxidants, for stress, and for "general purposes". And TMG for the methylation process. I find that TMG makes me feel more "smoothed out" than I felt on just the tyrosine alone but I'm in the process of experimenting with how much of that to take too. I probably take some other things too that I can't recall right now, but those are the essentials.
> I think I needed to be a bit more aggressive..it's helping get some medical tests done etc., it probably looks like I need some Betaine..but I'll leave that for a while...next thing to try, I think.
That was my thinking too, that I could use a bit of "hardening". BUT I noticed a positive change in my behavior and attitude towards this 6th grader I reading-tutor after the TMG to more easy-going-ness in my manner, more actual patience (rather than a consciously adopted attitude of patience), more positive feelings about her progress (rather than a conscious choice to be encouraging). It was very interesting to see this, and a bit scary too, as I sure didn't see myself one way until I changed to another way.
JL
Posted by tealady on November 30, 2003, at 15:46:08
In reply to Re: back on tyrosine: » tealady, posted by JLx on November 29, 2003, at 5:10:53
> > I take 375mg in the morning and rest of 500mg capsule of tyrosine about noon...actually just woke up at 5am and took some for the tooth pain..working now (6am).
> > On some days I'll take 500mg in the morning and 500mg at noon..if I'm going thru a hypo period
> > The day I tried 2000mg, it was pretty intense..hard to describe.. How did you feel on 1500mg?
>
> Well, I can't say exactly. I have a hard time pinpointing how I feel, particularly in response to some one thing in this "kitchen sink" experiment I've been doing. Usually I just register that somethng feels better or worse...but in this case, I think it was that I was more irritable and actually felt more stressed.
>
> > I've got some phenylanine, but haven't really tried it as yet.
>
> I think it does have an affect on appetite.Increase or decrease???
One thing I noticed about that too, is that it makes me physically warmer.
That would be good..I'm still about one degree too low. tyroine raised mine initially but the effect seemed to wear off.I think it did raise my blood pressure more too though, more so than tyrosine. (Prozac and Zoloft used to raise my blood pressure too.) Lately when I've checked it, it was normal...possibly due to adding the TMG. (My local supermarket pharmacy has one of those self-serve booths so I check it whenever I'm in there.)
Tyrosine raised mine initially too..but it seems to be back to "normal" now..ie if I only take 500mg a day
>
> > What brand is that you use. I have to get my P5P from the US...not on the Aussie list, but I'm allowed to import it. Won't be doing another order for a while but good to hear suggestions.
>
> NOW brand. I got it from iherb primarily because it was the cheapest. It has: Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2)17 mg, Coenzyme Vitamin B-6 33 mg (from 50 mg Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate) Magnesium 100 mg (as 75% Magnesium Oxide and 25% Magnesium Taurinate) Nothing special there, perhaps it is just the bit of magnesium with it that makes it feel better.Thanks
>
> > DHEA I found 20mg too much(cortisol), so now trying 10mg. I read somewhere that 10mg or even 5mg is enough for most females...there doesn't seem to be much info on DHEA, and even less on 7keto-DHEA. I haven't tried the 7-keto as yet.
>
> Yes, I think I'm going to start taking less every day instead of 25 mg every other day. I will have to open that little capsule which will be a pain.
>
> After I read this interesting post, http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031122/msgs/283957.html, I was looking up info on cytokine/inflammation and ran across this James South article, http://smart-drugs.net/ias-DHEA.htm :
>
> "A recent study found a strong inverse correlation between human serum DHEA-S levels and interleukin 6 (IL-6) levels. IL-6 is one of many cytokines, or immune cell "quasi-hormones," which collectively regulate immune activity. High interleukin levels are implicated as a causal factor in many diseases, such as rheumatoid arthritis, osteoporosis, B-cell cancers, atherosclerosis and Parkinson's disease. (7) Interleukin 6 levels tend to dramatically increase with aging, just as DHEA-S levels decrease with aging. (6) After studying 120 healthy human subjects, 15-75 years of age, R.H. Straub and colleagues concluded: "decreased DHEA serum concentrations during aging or inflammatory diseases will be paralleled by a significant increase in interleukin production. Thus, we conclude that the decrease in DHEA levels is a deleterious process, in particular during chronic inflammatory diseases."(7)"
>
> So this one reason for its antidepressive effect...decreased inflammation? I thought perhaps it was just the increased estrogen and testosterone.
>
Hmm that stuff seem a little different from other things I have read... I've discontinued DHEA at present a I read somewhere(and I can't find where now I'm looking again:) that it may sometimes cause depression starting within one to ten days of supplementing it..so I'm trying dropping it for a bit. I do think I probably ned some though.
I'll look for the link to what I read and post it. I can't find that either now :)> > Vit. C, E, B vitamins, including B 12 as methylcobalamin, as antioxidants, for stress, and for "general purposes". And TMG for the methylation process. I find that TMG makes me feel more "smoothed out" than I felt on just the tyrosine alone but I'm in the process of experimenting with how much of that to take too. I probably take some other things too that I can't recall right now, but those are the essentials.
It does sound like I need it<g>..but I'm even more confused than you on the whole methylation thingy. I'm trying to work out where nitrates etc fit in ...I can't :)
Betaine, comes from beets
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031003/msgs/268314.html
..and beets contain nitrates.Guess I'll have to ask Lar if he has heard if there is any nitrate or nitric oxide promoting stuff in betaine or more specifically betaine HCL? I'm guessing betaine does not contain any..but no idea as per usual.<g> I don't think it's a usual thing to consider for most though.
>
> > I think I needed to be a bit more aggressive..it's helping get some medical tests done etc., it probably looks like I need some Betaine..but I'll leave that for a while...next thing to try, I think.
>
> That was my thinking too, that I could use a bit of "hardening". BUT I noticed a positive change in my behavior and attitude towards this 6th grader I reading-tutor after the TMG to more easy-going-ness in my manner, more actual patience (rather than a consciously adopted attitude of patience), more positive feelings about her progress (rather than a conscious choice to be encouraging). It was very interesting to see this, and a bit scary too, as I sure didn't see myself one way until I changed to another way.No....it usually is everyone else who sees(feels) it first from what I've seen on boards.
I think I posted before on someone booting out her dog as well as the boyfriend? ..when she did that we knew it was a tyrsoine overload <g>Jan
Posted by JLx on December 1, 2003, at 8:22:13
In reply to Re: back on tyrosine: » JLx, posted by tealady on November 30, 2003, at 15:46:08
> > I think it does have an affect on appetite.
>
> Increase or decrease???Decrease. http://www.lowcarb.org/amino_rd.html
> One thing I noticed about that too, is that it makes me physically warmer.
>
>
> That would be good..I'm still about one degree too low. tyroine raised mine initially but the effect seemed to wear off.Hm....I wonder if it would work differently or simply the same.
> >
>
> Hmm that stuff seem a little different from other things I have read... I've discontinued DHEA at present a I read somewhere(and I can't find where now I'm looking again:) that it may sometimes cause depression starting within one to ten days of supplementing it..so I'm trying dropping it for a bit. I do think I probably ned some though.
> I'll look for the link to what I read and post it. I can't find that either now :)Well, funny you should say that as I'm wondering if it's working differently for me now than it used to. Or perhaps I'm just producing more naturally as my metabolism and other body stuff changes. I haven't had a period for at least 4 months now, so I'm hoping this may finally be menopause. After 7 years of perimenopausal symptoms, I'm ready! ;)
> It does sound like I need it<g>..but I'm even more confused than you on the whole methylation thingy. I'm trying to work out where nitrates etc fit in ...I can't :)
> Betaine, comes from beets
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031003/msgs/268314.html
> ..and beets contain nitrates.
>
> Guess I'll have to ask Lar if he has heard if there is any nitrate or nitric oxide promoting stuff in betaine or more specifically betaine HCL? I'm guessing betaine does not contain any..but no idea as per usual.<g> I don't think it's a usual thing to consider for most though.Perhaps its synthesized/distilled or whatever it is, so much that nitrates are no longer relevant?
>
> No....it usually is everyone else who sees(feels) it first from what I've seen on boards.
> I think I posted before on someone booting out her dog as well as the boyfriend? ..when she did that we knew it was a tyrsoine overload <g>Fer shur. A boyfriend, ok, but the dog? Obviously something is amiss! :)
JL
Posted by loolot on December 2, 2003, at 19:14:14
In reply to Re: back on tyrosine: » JLx, posted by tealady on November 28, 2003, at 13:10:35
Hi Tealady
I have read that DHEA actually lowers cortisol.
There have been tests that show really high DHEA levels in low cortisol patients, too.
How are you feeling? Did you go on remeron?
Posted by tealady on December 3, 2003, at 6:05:09
In reply to DHEA cortisol » tealady, posted by loolot on December 2, 2003, at 19:14:14
> Hi Tealady
> I have read that DHEA actually lowers cortisol.
Yeh, I've read that too. I've read so much contradictory stuff, I think it's up to me to work out what it is doing on me.
> There have been tests that show really high DHEA levels in low cortisol patients, too.
My cortisol tends to be lowish ..I'm pretty sure the DHEA raised either cortisol or testosterone levels ..probably both.
I've stopped it for a while as I was depressed and couldn't lift it much and I read somewhere(was it something bu Jlx?) that DHEA can cause depression> How are you feeling?
I'm feeling the best I've felt in ages thanks, since going off the DHEA ..but then I'm also eating lost of fish and can now tolerate 1 fish oil capsule with them..and started CoQ10 and same folic acid capsules..and I stopped temporarily a new multiB I was taking..
Something lifted the depression all of a sudden, hope it lasts.
> Did you go on remeron?No I went onto St John Wart 2 lots of 1350 mcg hypercinin, 13.5 mg hyperforin a day but it wasn't helping quite enough..then when I dropped the DHEA and the multiB..and added a few things, like the CoQ10,and a folic acid capsule... I suddenly felt good.
Well I'm putting it down to that anyway.
I'll wait a couple of days , then start adding things back in and see what it was.(if anything).I'll only be trying 10mg DHEA next time though.
I've gotta admit the DHEA makes weights at the gym way easier...I used higher setting than I ever have before and it was easy, lol.
Really no idea, but no complaints <g> Been 2 days feeling good now. Fingers crossed.Jan
Posted by SLS on December 4, 2003, at 7:12:37
In reply to Re: DHEA cortisol » loolot, posted by tealady on December 3, 2003, at 6:05:09
> I'm feeling the best I've felt in ages thanks, since going off the DHEA ..
Hi.
It could be the DHEA. Androgens can wreak havoc with mood. Of course, they can also help. It might be a long-shot, but perhaps there's a food alergy thing going on with the "inactive" ingredients used in something you were taking.
I hope you continue to feel better.
- Scott
Posted by tealady on December 6, 2003, at 18:28:15
In reply to Re: back on tyrosine: » tealady, posted by JLx on December 1, 2003, at 8:22:13
Hi,
Just some links that may provide some help with things we've been discussing.
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=51604.209 magnesium
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?tool=bookshelf&call=bv.View..ShowSection&searchterm=selenium&rid=bnchm.section.2391#2401
Nutrition and Functional Neurochemistrycortisol stuff..the blind leading the blind , but you may get some ideas
http://forums.about.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=ab-thyroid&msg=53370.1http://forums.about.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=ab-thyroid&msg=52997.1
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=51604.195
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=46319.609 xmas joke
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=46319.567 joke
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=51604.158 vitD..may be relevant to your calcium balance problem..click on links in post
Not sure if below is relevant to you or not? (only have access to abstract)..you seem to need an extra large dose of magnesium compared o most people
Hormone-stimulated Mg(2+) accumulation into rat hepatocytes: a pathway for rapid Mg(2+) and Ca(2+) redistribution.
Fagan TE, Scarpa A.
School of Medicine, Department of Physiology and Biophysics, Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH 44106, USA.
Many diseases such as cardiac arrhythmia, diabetes, and chronic alcoholism are associated with a marked decrease of plasma and parenchymal Mg(2+), and Mg(2+) administration is routinely used therapeutically. This study uses isolated rat hepatocytes to ascertain if and under which conditions increases in extracellular Mg(2+) result in an increase in intracellular Mg(2+). In the absence of stimulation, changing extracellular Mg(2+) had no effect on total cellular Mg(2+) content. By contrast, carbachol or vasopressin administration promoted an accumulation of Mg(2+) that increased cellular Mg(2+) content by 13.2 and 11.8%, respectively, and stimulated Mg(2+) uptake was unaffected by the absence of extracellular Ca(2+). Mg(2+) efflux resulting from stimulation of alpha- or beta-adrenergic receptors operated with a Mg(2+):Ca(2+) exchange ratio of 1. These data indicate that cellular Mg(2+) uptake can occur rapidly and in large amounts, through a process distinct from Mg(2+) release, but operating only upon specific hormonal stimulation. (c) 2002 Elsevier Science (USA).
PMID: 12054479 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
carbachol
<drug> Parasympathomimetic drug formed by substituting the acetyl of acetylcholine with a carbamyl group, acts on both muscarinic and nicotinic receptors and is not hydrolysed by acetylcholine esterase.vasopressin
<protein> A peptide hormone released from the posterior pituitary lobe but synthesised in the hypothalamus. There are 2 forms, differing only in the amino acid at position 8: arginine vasopressin is widespread, while lysine vasopressin is found in pigs. Has antidiuretic and vasopressor actions. Used in the treatment of diabetes insipidus.vasopressor
1. Stimulating contraction of the muscular tissue of the capillaries and arteries.2. An agent that stimulates contraction of the muscular tissue of the capillaries and arteries.
arginine
<amino acid> An essential amino acid, a major component of proteins and contains the guanido group that has a pKa of greater than 12, so that it carries a permanent positive charge at physiological pH. It becomes an essential amino acid when the body is under stress or is in an injured state.Depressed growth results from lack of dietary arginine. Arginine deficiency syndrome is observed in human babies born with a phosphate synthetase deficiency. Normal growth and development in these infants are achieved by adding arginine to their diet. Arginine deficiency leads to carbamyl phosphate overproduction in the mitochondria due to inadequate ornithine supply. Arginine-deficient diets in males causes decreased sperm counts. Free and bound arginine are found in abundance in human male sperm and arginine has been found to stimulate sperm motility.
There are two sources of arginine, arginine in the food chain and free-form arginine from supplements. Food-source arginine is found in abundance in turkey, chicken and other meats. Nonfood-source arginine is called L-arginine and is created through a fermentation process which separates arginine from all other proteins. In the presence of food and other amino acids, L-arginine will act like food-source arginine but when L-arginine is separated from its nutrient boundaries by the removal of all other amino acids, then L-arginine undertakes a different role, becoming capable of crossing the blood-brain barrier and stimulating growth hormone release secreted by the anterior pituitary.
Growth hormone serum levels peak during adolescence and begin to drop after age 23. Aging reduces natural growth hormone production, which results in added body fat, reduced muscle tissue, slowed healing, lack of elasticity in the skin and reduced immune function. Human pituitary growth hormone secretion is evidenced in human males, females and children following intravenous administration of 30 grams of arginine (in 30 minutes) in adults and 0.5 grams/kilogram of bodyweight in children. Female response is somewhat higher than male response. Oral administration of L-arginine also results in the release of Human Growth Hormone.
Tumour suppression is evidenced in the presence of L-arginine. In the Barbul study, tumours recurred in 100% of the control animals. But in the arginine-supplemented group, only about 60% of the tumours recurred and the animals with tumours survived longer. Supplementation of arginine in the diet inhibits development and increase in size of cancerous tumours, both chemically induced and naturally occurring.
Insulin can block growth hormone release, so high serum insulin levels are counterproductive to GH release. Insulin itself is capable of stimulating muscle growth, but it also strongly stimulates fat storage. Muscle growth stimulation from insulin is minuscule compared to muscle growth stimulated by growth hormone.
(13 Nov 1997)
Jan
PS.
Brain fog..or bad short term memory is a symptom of hypothyroid..and one that is a bit too touchy at present for me. I'm like you, I need to retrain in something and get back into the workforce, sigh.
I'm not sure if I'll be around much longer, my babble mail is on.
Posted by tealady on December 6, 2003, at 18:33:22
In reply to cortisol, magnesium, VitD and calcium, » JLx, posted by tealady on December 6, 2003, at 18:28:15
remember to got to bottom RHS of page and select "advanced view" to view 20 messages in thread at a time
Posted by tealady on December 11, 2003, at 1:05:05
In reply to Re: DHEA cortisol » tealady, posted by SLS on December 4, 2003, at 7:12:37
> > I'm feeling the best I've felt in ages thanks, since going off the DHEA ..
>
> Hi.
>
> It could be the DHEA. Androgens can wreak havoc with mood. Of course, they can also help. It might be a long-shot, but perhaps there's a food alergy thing going on with the "inactive" ingredients used in something you were taking.
>
> I hope you continue to feel better.
>
>
> - ScottThans Scott
Sorry I missed this post.
I've added back the B Vits and it wasn't them so far...so it could be the androgens. Hope not though, it's discouraging at the gym now <g>Jan
Posted by JLx on December 26, 2003, at 17:44:39
In reply to cortisol, magnesium, VitD and calcium, » JLx, posted by tealady on December 6, 2003, at 18:28:15
Hi Jan,
My apologies. I "hit the wall" a few weeks back and flipped into depressed/nonfunctional mode. :( Not sure what happened, but I suspect, as you mentioned, that my thyroid has something to do with it as I became colder and more tired as well. I have some Armour thyroid (about 20some tablets of 1 grain each) and I've been experimenting a bit with it, taking a half or a quarter and it does help.
Thanks for all the links! I enjoyed the jokes and found some good info in them too.
Even before I read your link, I had just started taking 99 mg of potassium a day, in the morning with the rest of my handful of stuff. I'm still taking 500 mg of tyrosine too. A few days, I experimented with extra and also extra L-phenylalanine to see how that would feel and I became EXTREMELY irritable and stressed feeling, so that wasn't the answer.
I've started taking more magnesium too, and it seems to help. I suspect that the magnesium/stress connection for me is extremely sensitive. I've been having very good luck with mg malate -- taking 300 mg at a time (3000 mg of malate), 3 times a day and have had no diarrhea.
I hope you had a good Christmas and are continuing to feel good. :)
I'm going to try to catch up with the rest of the board now.
> Jan
> PS.
> Brain fog..or bad short term memory is a symptom of hypothyroid..and one that is a bit too touchy at present for me. I'm like you, I need to retrain in something and get back into the workforce, sigh.
> I'm not sure if I'll be around much longer, my babble mail is on.What does this last comment mean??
JL
Posted by tealady on December 27, 2003, at 18:55:46
In reply to Sorry for the long delay in replying.... » tealady, posted by JLx on December 26, 2003, at 17:44:39
Hi Jan,
>
> My apologies.
Sorry too from me. I think I was a bit slow in replying too and I kinda guessed you were close..just was difficult topics for me to face I think. Hoped you would come back.
Starting work soon? Good luck!I "hit the wall" a few weeks back and flipped into depressed/nonfunctional mode. :( Not sure what happened, but I suspect, as you mentioned, that my thyroid has something to do with it as I became colder and more tired as well.
I could kinda see it, perhaps I related <g> ....which is why I kept posting even if I was slow. I hoped you might read it some time.
I have some Armour thyroid (about 20some tablets of 1 grain each) and I've been experimenting a bit with it, taking a half or a quarter and it does help.
Best to start with 1/4 grain once a day , then after 4 days or so, if everything going OK...
1/4 grain on waking then 1/4g before lunch...then get tested in about 6 weeks and see where you are.
you may need to add in T4 only from there..or from 3/4 grain..depending of Ft3 and Ft4 in test results.>
> Thanks for all the links! I enjoyed the jokes and found some good info in them too.yeah, I thought they were relevant to a couple of threads on here too in a way <g>
>
> Even before I read your link, I had just started taking 99 mg of potassium a day, in the morning with the rest of my handful of stuff.I use that lite salt..kinda half potassium Cl and half sodium Cl
I just got some tests back couple of days before Xmas..and eating this in capsules and taking MgCl and around 1.5g of magnesium..someone helped me figure it out from Mg Carbonate intake
..I had just near bottom of normal range for sodium, potassium and magnesium, ..and near top of normal range for Cl...probably need a different form than salt, huh? Only I can't find any for potassium.I'm still taking 500 mg of tyrosine too. A few days, I experimented with extra and also extra L-phenylalanine to see how that would feel and I became EXTREMELY irritable and stressed feeling, so that wasn't the answer.
yes, that's expected reaction. I take 375mg tyrosine on waking with Armour(and 20mcg t4)..
and rest of tyrosine (rest of 500mg cap) before lunch with 2nd lot of Armour&T4>
> I've started taking more magnesium too, and it seems to help. I suspect that the magnesium/stress connection for me is extremely sensitive. I've been having very good luck with mg malate -- taking 300 mg at a time (3000 mg of malate), 3 times a day and have had no diarrhea.
>Did you read that stuff about magnesium and hormones..I think it sounds like something you are having...also have a look at Ted Friedman's webpage http://www.goodhormonehealth.com/
this is something he wrote one of the posters in the tyroid forum..or someone connected to him did
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=54026.18
"I cut and pasted parts of an article he (Dr Friedman)sent me.
Adrenals also contain an outer cortex, which produces hormones such as cortisol, aldosterone, testosterone, DHEA, DHEAS, androstenedione and estrogens. Cortisol and aldosterone are two of the most important hormones the body makes. Excesses or deficiencies of these hormones result in important clinical problems. Cortisol, a glucocorticoid, is the stress hormone and is involved in weight control, infection fighting, quality of skin and bones, and heart function. Its levels are the highest in the morning, and are increased by stress and severe illness.
Aldosterone is the salt-retaining hormone and is a mineralocorticoid. Excess of aldosterone leads to high blood pressure and low potassium. Deficiencies of aldosterone are much less appreciated than deficiencies of cortisol, and lead to low blood pressure and high pulse,
especially on standing, the desire to eat salt (salt-craving), dizziness or lightheadedness on standing, and palpitations. Severe cases may lead to high potassium and low sodium in blood tests. When the adrenal is not making aldosterone, renin, a kidney hormone, increases. Excesses of cortisol and aldosterone may occur independently, that is a patient may have only excess aldosterone, only excess cortisol, or excesses of both. Similarly, deficiencies of cortisol and aldosterone deficiencies may be independent.
Many patients coming to see Dr. Friedman lately with symptom of fatigue and often symptoms of salt-craving, "cognitive fuzziness", dizziness or lightheadedness on standing, or palpitations have low blood levels of aldosterone. He explains the connection between low aldosterone levels and fatigue as follows: with low aldosterone, the kidney loses salt, leading to low blood volume.
This coupled with the idea that the leg veins don’t constrict properly, leads to lower blood
volume to the brain and fatigue and other symptoms. These patients often have a drop in their blood pressure and an increase in their pulse when standing. They may also have decreased blood flow to the brain when measured by SPECT scan. Aldosterone deficiency may be made worse if patients restrict their salt intake.Soon-to-be-published research by Dr. Friedman shows a few patterns of abnormalities in the renin-aldosterone axis. A little more than half the patients with fatigue had low blood levels of both renin and aldosterone. This is called hyporeninemic hypoaldosteronism and is probably due to dysfunction of what is called the autonomic nervous system, which sends messages from the brain to the kidneys. Other aspects of the autonomic nervous system have been found to be deficient in chronic fatigue syndrome. About one-third of the patients were found to have low aldosterone and high renin. This indicates a deficiency in the aldosterone production in the adrenals themselves, with a compensatory rise in the renin coming from the kidney. The aldosterone defect can either be an isolated problem, or part of Addison’s disease (often early Addison’s disease), in which both cortisol and aldosterone production are diminished. The remaining patients (about one-sixth) had both high renin and high aldosterone. This is likely to be a compensatory rise in both of these hormones as a reaction to a low blood volume, most likely due to an inability of the kidney to retain salt.
Dr. Friedman recommends treating patients with an individualized combination of increased salt consumption, a synthetic form of aldosterone called Florinef (fludrocortisone), or Midodrine (proamantine), a drug used to raise blood pressure. Salt is the most benign of the treatments.
Salt tablets can be purchased in a drug store or a patient can add an extra teaspoon of salt to their food per day. Florinef comes in 0.1 mg pills and Dr. Friedman usually starts with 1/2 pill in the morning for a week or two and then goes up to 1 pill in the morning if no side effects occur. The main side effects are headache and swelling in legs (edema). Midodrine comes in 5 mg pills and
Dr. Friedman usually starts with 5 mg pills in the morning and noon. He may go up to 2 pills
three times a day and sometimes needs to use both Florinef and Midodrine, as well as extra salt.
The side effects of Midodrine include high blood pressure, itching, goosebumps, numbness and the feeling of writing on your skin or scalp. Many of these side effects go away with use and both drugs are unlikely to cause long term damage. Most patients taking Florinef and Midodrine, as well as extra salt report an improvement in their symptoms of palpitations and dizziness/lightheadedness on standing, while many report an improvement in fatigue and cognitive dysfunction. Licorice, available as a tea from Alvita, may help with mild cases.
Dr. Friedman is doing further research on the renin-aldosterone axis and chronic fatigue
syndrome (CFS) in a study generously funded by the CFIDS (Chronic Fatigue and Immune Dysfunction Syndrome) Association of America. He is also studying the effect of Viagra on symptoms of CFS, with the idea that Viagra may improve blood flow to the brain"-----read the thread I guess, as usual , put on advanced view ..bottom RHS
> I hope you had a good Christmas and are continuing to feel good. :)
Great thanks, I went back to my parents and have spent some time with old friends etc..everyone is making a big fuss of me, and I'm enjoying it <g>..trying to get fit
>
> I'm going to try to catch up with the rest of the board now.
>
> > Jan
> > PS.
> > Brain fog..or bad short term memory is a symptom of hypothyroid..and one that is a bit too touchy at present for me. I'm like you, I need to retrain in something and get back into the workforce, sigh.
> > I'm not sure if I'll be around much longer, my babble mail is on.
>What does this last comment mean??I intend to spend less time on computers and more time getting fit..and getting my old taxes done when I get back too,...and I've enrolled in a Chemistry and Biology course for 2 weeks in Feb..kinda covers high school level..and no assessments, which is what I want..and don't have good computer access for now... so if you want to get me..just email me OK...like click on my name and I'll check out that email address at least a couple of times a week...so I'll get back to you <g>..even if late
Jan
Posted by tealady on December 27, 2003, at 19:02:34
In reply to Sorry for the long delay in replying.... » tealady, posted by JLx on December 26, 2003, at 17:44:39
Re Friedman..he's an endo that larrian Gillepsie recommends..only she doesn't agree with his recommendations for testosterone replacement for women (nor do I, but that carries no weight). No docs/researchers agree completely with this hormonal stuff.
Just checked out his site..looks like he has finally discovered iron too, although in your case ferritin may not be a problemo...is with most of us, though.
Take care,
Jan
Posted by JLx on December 28, 2003, at 18:43:18
In reply to Re: Sorry for the long delay in replying.... » JLx, posted by tealady on December 27, 2003, at 18:55:46
> I have some Armour thyroid (about 20some tablets of 1 grain each) and I've been experimenting a bit with it, taking a half or a quarter and it does help.
>
> Best to start with 1/4 grain once a day , then after 4 days or so, if everything going OK...
> 1/4 grain on waking then 1/4g before lunch...then get tested in about 6 weeks and see where you are.I don't want to spend money for doc/tests so I'll have to go by my body temp and sense of things. I took it this morning after I'd been up for about an hour and it was 97.2. This is all the lower it goes usually so I think 1 grain at most should do the trick. I have 30 of the Armour is all, so if I could take a half grain that would be better as it would get me through the coldest two months. Then I have some that I bought from Nutri-Meds (without a scrip) that they swear is the "real deal", but who knows. I also have an adrenal glandular supplement from them. Do you think this would be advisable too?
Ran across some webpages recently about cortisol...maybe stuff you already know but I found them interesting. I'm wondering if licorice might be worth trying. <sigh> I had really hoped I was through buying/trying new stuff.
http://www.deafwhale.com/cfs/hydrocortisone.html
http://www.deafwhale.com/cfs/index.html
And didn't you say that it's possible to use the .5% hydrocortisone cream also to mildly boost cortisol?
Interesting comment on that page about grapefruit, which I was eating like a mad woman when I was feeling so super stressed.
"Glycyrrhizic acid in licorice extract, progesterone, and flavonoids in grapefruit, are the only known effective inhibitors of 11 beta-HSD readily available. (How progesterone alters 11 beta-HSD is not understood by this researcher at this time.) You could eat 10 - 15 grapefruit or take about ~4 grams of licorice extract on the morning of day two to inhibit the enzyme. This method can potentiate cortisol bioactivity up to 6 fold, making it possible to get great benefit from low levels on day two."
> > Even before I read your link, I had just started taking 99 mg of potassium a day, in the morning with the rest of my handful of stuff.
>
> I use that lite salt..kinda half potassium Cl and half sodium ClI was too, and then switched to iodized sea salt. On the Mercola site, he talks about a self-test for whether you need iodine or not -- seeing how soon it's absorbed when you put some on your skin. Mine, when I tested it in the past (can't find the blasted bottle at the moment to try it again) was a very quick uptake. That's when I started using iodized salt. (I DON'T take a multi which usually has about 150 mg of iodine.)
> ..I had just near bottom of normal range for sodium, potassium and magnesium, ..and near top of normal range for Cl...probably need a different form than salt, huh? Only I can't find any for potassium.Not sure what you mean there, can't find any potassium supplements? The ones I bought are NOW brand, potassium gluconate.
I just started reading "The Magnesium Factor" and Dr. Seelig talks in there about using "SmartSalt" "CardiaSalt" and Celtic sea salt to supplement magnesium.
>
> Did you read that stuff about magnesium and hormones..I think it sounds like something you are having...also have a look at Ted Friedman's webpage http://www.goodhormonehealth.com/Thanks. I notice he doesn't believe in the body temperature approach, but in my experience, it's a reliable indicator.
> I intend to spend less time on computers and more time getting fit..and getting my old taxes done when I get back too,...and I've enrolled in a Chemistry and Biology course for 2 weeks in Feb..kinda covers high school level..and no assessments, which is what I want..and don't have good computer access for now... so if you want to get me..just email me OK...like click on my name and I'll check out that email address at least a couple of times a week...so I'll get back to you <g>..even if late
Ok, I will. Just wanted to answer this post in case anyone else is following.
JL
Posted by EscherDementian on December 31, 2003, at 12:57:28
In reply to Re: Sorry for the long delay in replying.... » tealady, posted by JLx on December 28, 2003, at 18:43:18
> Just wanted to answer this post in case anyone else is following.
>
i sure am...
Thank You both~triplets?
Escher
This is the end of the thread.
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