![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 21 to 45 of 87. Go back in thread:
Posted by DSCH on October 27, 2003, at 10:30:48
In reply to Re: TMG because I resemble Pfeiffer's histadelic t » DSCH, posted by Franz on October 27, 2003, at 10:00:40
> I can relate to the 'under-methylated' type too (you see, we start to have something in common), but not entirely.
For me it breaks down like this...
Libido: High (big yes there, the worse I am the higher it goes, to the point where I can hardly think of anything else at times, it drops when I get better)
Allergies or sensitivities: Inhalant (yes as a child, now I believe I have some food ones too)
Social manner: Quiet/Shy (yes)Head and body hair: Sparse (wrong)
Anxiety tendencies: Outwardly calm, with internal anxiety (yes)
Nervous legs: No (correct)Obsessive compulsive: Yes, Obsessions but not compulsions (maybe)
Sleep deprivation: Yes (hypersomniac tendencies, didn't feel rested by long sleep)
Skin: Itchy and warm (yes, I have mild familial cold uticaria)
Pain tolerance: Poor (maybe)
Hair and skin: May be similar to or darker than other family members (correct)
Hyperactive tendencies: No (correct, but maybe not when I was a kid)
Frequent headaches: Yes (nope)
Body fat distribution: Normal (probably)
Salivary flow: High (maybe)
Ease in reaching orgasm: Relatively high (yep)
Frequent infections: Yes (nope, I am extremely healthy in this regard)Dental health: Good (yes, my dentists have always remarked on my hard enamel)
Appetite: Low (no, variable)
Memory: Poor (variable)
Fingers: Long (yes, and with nail white spots)
Reaction to anti-histamines: Positive (only take them for allergy attacks, chorpheniramine makes me drowsy, diphenhydramine makes me feel ill)
Mood response to SSRI anti-depressants: Positive (maybe, but they make me even more listless)
Dominant symptom when psychosis present: Delusional thinking & catatonia (maybe)> I am trying DMAE now which is supposed to be problematic for 'under-methylated' types, have you tried it?.
No. Interesting that it is not recommended by Pfeiffer while Sahelian refers to it as a methyl donor in the same class as TMG/DMG. I do not know why this is the case.
> I liked SAMe, but is is too expensive.
I tried it once back in 2000-2001 before I had a major crisis episode. Can't say how well it worked before I dropped it.
> You mentioned lecithin in another post. I like it, you may want to give it a try sometime.
I am thinking about it. GNC stocks an interesting product called PS 100 which has a bunch of the different phosphatidyl's.
> Regarding TMG, what do you mean with "activating"?. Is that a feeling of energy like one can get from coffee or ginseng or the nervous state you mentioned?.Yes.
> I have TMG powder, the label reads 1/8 teaspoon equals 375mg. 1/8 tsp looks small. How do you meassure it?.
Mine comes in 750 mg containing tablets that are quite large. I am presently cutting them roughly in half.
> B vitamins ae good for me, if that means anything.
They are good for everyone it seems. :-)
> Are you on any medication?. I am taking a very low dose clonazepam at night and sometimes day, but it tens to be sedating. A supplement I like for sleep is valerian, it is relaxing and it feels nice, a bit better mood.
No. What I have posted is EVERYTHING I take into my mouth with the exception of foods.
Posted by DSCH on October 27, 2003, at 10:36:25
In reply to I forgot...inhibition » DSCH, posted by Franz on October 27, 2003, at 10:26:00
> I forgot to mention this.
>
> You say you have psychomotor retardation or inhibition?. I can´t remember now. Do you mean you feel action inhibited?Slowed down, made clumsy, some inhibition (mostly in speech). Heavy clumsy handwritting. All that has gotten better, though I am off the peak I had when I made my breakthrough in August. Part of it I believe was a degredation in proprioception. Extremities and joints did not feel "good/smooth" in movement.
> How do you response to benzodiazepines?. Some days ago I was feeling bad, low mood, depressive and I took 1.5mg bromazepam. In a few moments I was cleaning the mess I had accumulated in weeks. So, the energy was there, only that I could not use it. Maybe it was my thinking and worrying and the benzo helped with that. It does not always work so good.
My anxiety levels only go very high in short periods, so no, I have never taken a benzo.
Posted by DSCH on October 27, 2003, at 19:58:23
In reply to Re: TMG because I resemble Pfeiffer's histadelic » Franz, posted by DSCH on October 27, 2003, at 10:30:48
IIRC when you are in a half-awake state your brain is generating theta waves. So it was I was musing while slowly waking from a nap this evening. This state has always been rather fertile time for the generation of ideas for me, I can remember one instance I solved a rather difficult homework problem from a graduate course the morning after with a theta-induced change of perspective.
Anyway, I was suddenly struck by the urge to put this methylation theory to the test. Although my sucesses to date appear to have centered around percursor loading (first with DLPA, then tyrosine, and presently tyrosine plus 5-HTP) I have felt my qualms about it as it would suggest my absorption, breakdown, and utilization of dietary proteins is poor, which I don't believe is really the case (shouldn't I have more somatic symptoms from that?).
My first and second trials with TMG were both done before I brought Mg supplementation on board. This might turn out to have been a key move in light of the information Graham has generously provided me with in the form of the diagram of methionine/homocystiene metabolism.
The whole business of last Friday reinforced my faith in broad spectrum supplementation of vitamins (i.e. its not enough for me to just take C and B6).
Therefore I am considering dropping tyrosine and 5-HTP for a while, and seeing if complete vitamin-mineral supplementation plus TMG is able to do the trick for me. If it does I consider it a victory for Pfeiffer and the proponents of methylation. ;-) If not I can always turn back to precursor loading.
Posted by jparsell82 on October 28, 2003, at 17:44:35
In reply to Thinking.... it's experiment time, posted by DSCH on October 27, 2003, at 19:58:23
DSCH, your problems with ADD seem to be very similar to mine. I've also been trying everything to get myself fixed. As far as your aggravation thing you were talking about earlier in this thread. I was taking 5mg selegilene, 750mg DL-Phenylalanine, and 750 mg of TMG a day and I was getting the short fuse effects too where I get easily irritated and aggravated. Possibly a little too much dopamine? I've also had negative cognitive reactions to SSri's. Recently, I just tried(am on now) Xanax XR which really improved my attention with everything. I could read better and stay more focused on things. The downside being I have no social motivation... actually I don't have any desire to talk to people. I have some Jarrow TMG & Deprenyl I might try mixing in. I also have some Tryptophan & 5-HTP but I'm unsure about using because of my negative reaction to Ssri's. But I would like to see how it would mix. Anyways, let me know if you ever get a really good working combination.
Posted by DSCH on October 28, 2003, at 22:21:26
In reply to Re: Thinking.... it's experiment time, posted by jparsell82 on October 28, 2003, at 17:44:35
Tonight is pretty good. Later afternoon and early evening I felt slightly stupid, but I am pinning that down on going to bed late, sleeping in late, and missing breakfast and morning supplements. I have had things improve steadily since dinner.
I took my missed morning pills with dinner, so I had a high TMG dose and I am not hot tempered. I will try 750 mg TMG tid tomorrow and see what happens. Oh, I got bromelain so if I do have a protein digestion issue I will have some assistance there.
I am cautiously optimistic about all this.
Posted by DSCH on October 30, 2003, at 17:49:57
In reply to Re: Thinking.... it's experiment time » jparsell82, posted by DSCH on October 28, 2003, at 22:21:26
Posted by tealady on November 1, 2003, at 4:08:38
In reply to Re: TMG because I resemble Pfeiffer's histadelic » Franz, posted by DSCH on October 27, 2003, at 10:30:48
>Fingers: Long (yes, and with nail white spots)
DSCH, with me(and all family) the white spots indicate a lack of zinc. If I take some zinc, the white spots will disappear.
Not sure if applies to you,
Jan
Posted by DSCH on November 1, 2003, at 10:02:19
In reply to Re: TMG because I resemble Pfeiffer's histadelic » DSCH, posted by tealady on November 1, 2003, at 4:08:38
> >Fingers: Long (yes, and with nail white spots)
>
> DSCH, with me(and all family) the white spots indicate a lack of zinc. If I take some zinc, the white spots will disappear.
> Not sure if applies to you,
> JanYes, I am aware of that. My multi has zinc.
Posted by Francesco on November 4, 2003, at 3:42:49
In reply to Re: TMG because I resemble Pfeiffer's histadelic » tealady, posted by DSCH on November 1, 2003, at 10:02:19
I resemble more to the undermethylated. Thanks for the link
Posted by DSCH on November 4, 2003, at 6:17:31
In reply to Pfeiffer » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 4, 2003, at 3:42:49
> I resemble more to the undermethylated. Thanks for the link
How close of a fit to the spectrum is it in your case?
I am very happy with how the TMG is working now, which is to say it is very smooth. If you miss a dose it isn't the end of the world. :-) In other words you aren't tied so closely to a dosage schedule to keep everything going like I was with precursor loading via L-tyrosine and 5-HTP.
The trick to it is you need to make sure you are getting magnesium (and it should help to poke around and find a readily absorbed form like taurate or malate rather than the dirt-cheap, but stable as all-get-out oxide... see the magnesium threads floating around the alt. board at the moment) and probably your B3 as well. Mg is needed for the whole homocystiene-methionine-SAMe cycle to turnover. And taking TMG without B3 may lead to some serious irritability and temper issues like I experinced when I began the latest trial (I believe this is the case because I had stopped taking my multi because the 5-HTP formula had so much B6 in it and it is possible to chronic overdose, so I wasn't getting my other B's, and Larry pointed this possibility out).
I'm going to try out 750 mg tid for a few days, but it might be possible to go lower. I no longer notice an activating effect from individual doses anymore because the effect is there all the time. Fortunately it doesn't interfere with getting sleep.
My latest wrinkle is that I am taking lecithin and omega-3 now too. I may have gotten a subtle postive effect from starting that up last night but it could just be coincidence.
I will let things settle in for a few days and then I will try piracetam for the first time.
Posted by DSCH on November 10, 2003, at 13:24:53
In reply to Pfeiffer » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 4, 2003, at 3:42:49
Haven't heard from you in a while. And I know things can change for you in a matter of days. ;-) How's it going?
Posted by Francesco on November 11, 2003, at 5:32:58
In reply to What's up? » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 10, 2003, at 13:24:53
Hi DSCH, I have been trying to withdraw from Psychobabble ;-)
I'm taking L-Tyrosine (+multivitamin complex) some day while some day I'm taking only multivitamin. I have not yet decided if I like it or not. It helps a lot with energy, concentration, motivation but it lessens a bit my capacity to emphatize with people (and my sense of humour too). Anyway, it's not that bad. I can do more easily what I want if I don't care so much about people's feelings.
Tomorrow morning I asked about B6 but the herborist told me that the pure form is not OCT in Italy : o How much B6 would you suggest per day ?
On thursday I will purchase tryptophane and I'll try to add it to my regimen to see what happens.
In future I would like also to try EPA-DHA at proper doses. Ehm, another problem ... L-tyrosine makes me a little short-temper : /Bye !
Posted by joebob on November 11, 2003, at 9:29:26
In reply to TMG » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 4, 2003, at 6:17:31
Posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 10:20:05
In reply to can you post the instructions for making the tmg (nm) » DSCH, posted by joebob on November 11, 2003, at 9:29:26
LOL I don't make my own. :-) I buy mine from Vitamin Shoppe now, their own label (300 x 1000 mg!), reasonable price for that quantity. Before this, I had gotten Source Naturals (60 x 750 mg) from Wild Oats.
Basically, a health food or supplements store worth its salt should stock it. I imagine you could purchase it online from any number of vendors.
TMG is obtained from sugar beets.
Posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 13:31:23
In reply to Re: What's up? » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 11, 2003, at 5:32:58
> Hi DSCH, I have been trying to withdraw from Psychobabble ;-)
We could take this over to private e-mail if you want.
> I'm taking L-Tyrosine (+multivitamin complex) some day while some day I'm taking only multivitamin. I have not yet decided if I like it or not. It helps a lot with energy, concentration, motivation but it lessens a bit my capacity to emphatize with people (and my sense of humour too). Anyway, it's not that bad. I can do more easily what I want if I don't care so much about people's feelings.
>
> Tomorrow morning I asked about B6 but the herborist told me that the pure form is not OCT in Italy : o How much B6 would you suggest per day ?25-50 mg seems to be right. Somewhere above 75-100 mg you can start causing nerve damage in the long run.
> On thursday I will purchase tryptophane and I'll try to add it to my regimen to see what happens.
> In future I would like also to try EPA-DHA at proper doses. Ehm, another problem ... L-tyrosine makes me a little short-temper : /
>
> Bye !You could look into B3 (niacin or niacinamide) and/or magnesium.
I would suggest a discussion of what is in your mutli is in order. :-)
Posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 2:12:43
In reply to Re: What's up? » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 11, 2003, at 5:32:58
Francesco,
Some thoughts that came to me while my mind wandered tonight instead of shuting down and going to sleep...
You appear to have dramatic responses to coffee/espresso (mostly negative) and gingko (mostly positive). I am wondering if this might be a sign of borderline insufficency in perfusion in areas of your brain, particularly the pre-frontal cortex, which would be aggravated by caffiene (a vasoconstrictor) and helped by gingko (a vasodilator).
I think this might be an explanation for the ADD symptoms you have. You've said before that something more like OCD is what you had from early childhood on. When did you notice ADD coming on and the OCD going away? This is a wild-a** guess on my part, but perhaps a perfusion problem interferes with your OCD-like problem, and cancels it out at the "price" of giving you ADD. When you do something that boosts brain perfusion, the ADD goes away but the "in-built" problem you have is revealed again.
What do you think? If this guessing is correct, the best thing (maybe) would be to take gingko (probably a bit less than that first time around!) ;-) and then find something to take on the problems that are remaining, which sound serotonergic, and thus maybe tryptophan would fit.
I don't quite understand how one would go about finding a balance between tryptophan or 5-HTP and tyrosine given that tyrosine beats out tryptophan and the LNAAT can be easily saturated (IIRC). Meanwhile, I don't think gingko would interfere with tryptophan at all.
Anyway, just some things that were bouncing around my head in lieu of sleep. YMMV. ;-)
Whatever else, make sure you are getting some B3 and magnesium. :-)
Posted by JLx on November 13, 2003, at 5:37:47
In reply to An Idea » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 2:12:43
>I don't quite understand how one would go about finding a balance between tryptophan or 5-HTP and tyrosine given that tyrosine beats out tryptophan and the LNAAT can be easily saturated (IIRC). Meanwhile, I don't think gingko would interfere with tryptophan at all.
I hope you don't mind me butting in on your thread...
Could you please explain what you mean by "the LNAAT can be easily saturated (IIRC)"?
When I took the Amen Clinic brain checklist, I came out "highly probable" in four categories: ADD Inattentive Type, Cingulate System Hyperactivity, Limbic System Hyperactivity, & Basal Ganglia Hyperactivity.
Some of the recommendations for those conditions are the opposites of the others.
For the inattentive ADD he recommends, tyrosine, OPCs and gingko to raise dopamine.
For cingulate gyrus overactivity, to raise serotonin: St. John's Wort, 5-HTP, tryptophan, and inositol.
For limbic problems, to raise norepinephrine and dopamine: tyrosine, DLPA and SAM-e.
For basal ganglia hyperactivity, the anti-anxiety B-vitamins and herbs.
I'm trying something to address all of those -- together, which can be a problem, as you know. As Dr. Amen notes,
"Since serotonin and dopamine levels tend to counterbalance each other: whenever serotonin is raised dopamine tends to be lowered and when dopamine is raised serotonin is lowered."
I was hoping it would be possible to maintain a certain balance between dopamine/serotonin so one gets the benefit of both. So I cut down my tyrosine/phenylalanine doses and added some 5-HTP at night (50 mg) and also started adding a meal of potatoes/small amount of protein for the serotonin boost. It has helped, but it feels nervewracking and unpredictable. And I don't sleep well since the tyrosine. I keep waking up every couple hours, and sleeping only about 5-6 hrs. Sometimes less.
Any suggestions? I already take magnesium, B vits, C, etc. and am experimenting with the TMG.
I've been wondering if I should try tryptophan at night instead of 5-HTP. I hate to spend the money if it's going to be comparable, but from what folks are reporting, it has a different effect.
Posted by Francesco on November 13, 2003, at 6:14:10
In reply to An Idea » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 2:12:43
> Francesco,
>
> Some thoughts that came to me while my mind wandered tonight instead of shuting down and going to sleep...whare are you takin' at the moment ?
> You appear to have dramatic responses to coffee/espresso (mostly negative) and gingko (mostly positive). I am wondering if this might be a sign of borderline insufficency in perfusion in areas of your brain, particularly the pre-frontal cortex, which would be aggravated by caffiene (a vasoconstrictor) and helped by gingko (a vasodilator).
This is substantially right. But ginko doesn't take care of all my problems. It helps a bit with concentration while tyrosine helps much more but not enough. I suspect there is also an "obsessive part" in my concentration problem. That's why half an hour ago I took my first 50 mg Tripthofan capsule : )
What's exactly a borderline insufficency in perfusion in areas of brain ? Also with the help of dictionaries I didn't understand anything : o
When did you notice ADD coming on and the OCD going away?
This is too hard to remember. I suspect that ADHD came first form a logical point of view and that OCD was just an attempt to manage ADHD ... When I was a child I was clearly ADHD and sometimes clearly OCD (not just OCD tendencies, but rituals and so on). When adolescents I had only OCD tendencies + ADHD. Maybe the puberty has changed something in my brain chemistry (yeah, I'm shooting in the dark ;-) Psychologically speaking I'm perfectionist, like many ADDers, but I'm not focused enough to "be perfect". Therefore I give up... how can you study in a "perfect way" while you can't read more than one page without starting to daydream ? When the ADHD is solved the perfectionist tendency remain and I can be perfect ;-)
> What do you think?Too ignorant about the matter to think anything about what you said : )
If this guessing is correct, the best thing (maybe) would be to take gingko (probably a bit less than that first time around!) ;-) and then find something to take on the problems that are remaining, which sound serotonergic, and thus maybe tryptophan would fit.
Why not ? I'll try them both and let you know
> I don't quite understand how one would go about finding a balance between tryptophan or 5-HTP and tyrosine given that tyrosine beats out tryptophan and the LNAAT can be easily saturated (IIRC).
These are a very bad news : o I thought that
tryptophan + tyrosine would have been the perfect combo ! Anyway, tyrosine alone is not for me (not everyday at least). Negative effects of tyrosine:mild diarrhoea (which is not a big deal), excessive hunger (I eat much more but not in a compulsive way like I did on Anafranil ... I'm just hungry !)
If I don't eat I get nervous
Too much energy !
Some kind of overfocusing like episodes ... I'm so concentrated on a particular (internal or external) thing that the rest of the world disappear
less sharppositive effects
a lot of energy !it doesn't help *so* much with concentration but if I don't understand what I read (because I'm thinking of something else) I can go on without cursing ;-) it makes me assertive even with myself
I look people in their eyes (less shy)
less procrastination
final review: ritalin like effects but the duration of the effect is longer (about 12 hours) the side effects are more tolerable, the positive effects are better in many respects
sorry, I went out of tracks ! ;-)
Meanwhile, I don't think gingko would interfere with tryptophan at all.
Nice to hear it ! I have got to try it : ) as you're probably noticing trypthophan is helping me with verbal fluency ... It makes me calmer ... I'm ready to study now : ) (but maybe I'll procrastinate because I skip tyrosine ;-)
> Anyway, just some things that were bouncing around my head in lieu of sleep. YMMV. ;-)
Yesterday evening after the effect of tyrosine fade out I was sure I would have not be able to sleep ... I get a little hypo after a stimulant fades out (also with Anafranil, which has for many respects and paradoxically stimulant properties) ... Therefore I had to take Serpax (a benzo) ... I know this is not a sharp solution but sometimes I *must* sleep a decent number of hours if I don't want to be uptight and edgy the
day after ... Oh God, I'm talking so much !> Whatever else, make sure you are getting some B3 and magnesium. :-)
This is the content of Minervitam:
every capsule:
A 0,8 mg
E 10 mg
B1 1,4 mg
B2 1,6 mg
pantotenic acid (?) 6 mg (could be B3 ?)
B6 2 mg
Niacine (?) 18 mg
Vitamin C 60 mg
Magnesium 90 mg
Iron 14 mg
Zinc 15mg
Copper 1,2 mg
Manganese 10,0 mg
Iodium 0,15 mg
Vitamin D3 5,0 mg
Vitamin B12 1,0 mg
Falacine 0,20 mgIs it worth to take it in your opinion ?
Thanks for all the suggestions and care, I will answer to the other post as far as possible
Bye !
Posted by Francesco on November 13, 2003, at 6:25:58
In reply to An Idea » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 2:12:43
I don't quite understand how one would go about finding a balance between tryptophan or 5-HTP and tyrosine
what about to try to get the same effect SAM-E at proper doses ? (800 mg per day)
Posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 10:53:47
In reply to Re: Dopamine/serotonin » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 13, 2003, at 5:37:47
> >I don't quite understand how one would go about finding a balance between tryptophan or 5-HTP and tyrosine given that tyrosine beats out tryptophan and the LNAAT can be easily saturated (IIRC). Meanwhile, I don't think gingko would interfere with tryptophan at all.
>
> I hope you don't mind me butting in on your thread...LOL. It isn't "my" thread. Go right ahead. :-)
> Could you please explain what you mean by "the LNAAT can be easily saturated (IIRC)"?
LNAAT = large neutral amino acid transporter. Essentially a selective pump that allows several amino acids to cross over into the central nervous system from the blood as there is a rather formidable diffusion barrier (the blood-brain barrier or BBB). Based upon a post of Larry's, the LNAAT can accept phenylalanine, tyrosine, leucine, isoleucine, and tryptophan. However given equal concentrations of each of these amino acids in the blood, tryptophan will lose out unless there is a fair amount of blood insulin also present (carbs therefore indirectly boost tryptophan uptake).
The best analogy that I have read is to think of turnstyles at a subway station or a baseball park. There is limited throughput and some of the people are slimmer/faster/pushier than others and thus have a better chance of getting through.
Therefore at any one time, you can either "dope" for more serotonin or dopamine/norepinepherine, but not both at the same time (unless 5-HTP can take different path in than tryptophan).
> When I took the Amen Clinic brain checklist, I came out "highly probable" in four categories: ADD Inattentive Type, Cingulate System Hyperactivity, Limbic System Hyperactivity, & Basal Ganglia Hyperactivity.
Of course, the only way to know for sure to have the functional scan done.
> Some of the recommendations for those conditions are the opposites of the others.
Yeah, that's a problem.
> For the inattentive ADD he recommends, tyrosine, OPCs and gingko to raise dopamine.
That's not a totally direct effect of OPCs and gingko, IIRC.
> For cingulate gyrus overactivity, to raise serotonin: St. John's Wort, 5-HTP, tryptophan, and inositol.
I don't know how inositol works here.
> For limbic problems, to raise norepinephrine and dopamine: tyrosine, DLPA and SAM-e.
He recommends limbic problems be treated with SSRIs as well, so they can be serotonergic as well.
IIRC, the only DIRECT neurotransmitter boost from SAMe is epinepherine/adrenaline. But there are plenty of other indirect things going on I do not understand so well yet.
> For basal ganglia hyperactivity, the anti-anxiety B-vitamins and herbs.
I've not read up on the basal ganglia.
> I'm trying something to address all of those -- together, which can be a problem, as you know. As Dr. Amen notes,
>
> "Since serotonin and dopamine levels tend to counterbalance each other: whenever serotonin is raised dopamine tends to be lowered and when dopamine is raised serotonin is lowered."Partly due to the LNAAT competition. There may be other mechanisms within the brain though.
> I was hoping it would be possible to maintain a certain balance between dopamine/serotonin so one gets the benefit of both. So I cut down my tyrosine/phenylalanine doses and added some 5-HTP at night (50 mg) and also started adding a meal of potatoes/small amount of protein for the serotonin boost. It has helped, but it feels nervewracking and unpredictable. And I don't sleep well since the tyrosine. I keep waking up every couple hours, and sleeping only about 5-6 hrs. Sometimes less.
>
> Any suggestions? I already take magnesium, B vits, C, etc. and am experimenting with the TMG.You've already got the main idea: Reserve tyrosine for first-thing-in-the-morning. Gradually add on more 5-HTP until sleep improves. That's all I can suggest at this point.
If you are luckly, TMG will smooth things out and you might be able to drop precursor loading altogether. But that's only if your problem is elevated homocystiene/depressed SAMe.
You can see why I am glad I can just take TMG and not have to worry about balancing these effects out over the course of the day.
> I've been wondering if I should try tryptophan at night instead of 5-HTP. I hate to spend the money if it's going to be comparable, but from what folks are reporting, it has a different effect.
I have not read up on the particulars on how 5-HTP and tryptophan differ. All I know is that 5-HTP is the intermediate form between tryptophan and serotonin, and that 5-HTP can get into the CNS from the blood somehow.
Posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 11:20:44
In reply to Re: An Idea » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 13, 2003, at 6:25:58
> I don't quite understand how one would go about finding a balance between tryptophan or 5-HTP and tyrosine
>
> what about to try to get the same effect SAM-E at proper doses ? (800 mg per day)I would not recommend taking SAMe by itself unless you have had your blood homocystiene level tested. Extra SAMe once used becomes extra homocystiene, which is toxic. You need to be able to convert this extra homocystiene back into methionine via methylcobalamin or TMG if your body's own conversion rate is maxed out.
If you are pretty sure you are not overmethylated (the symptoms are pretty distinct from undermethylation) then TMG or methylcobalamin are safer to try.
Posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 11:36:53
In reply to Re: An Idea » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 13, 2003, at 6:14:10
> whare are you takin' at the moment ?
Multivitamin/mineral
TMG
Grape Seed OPCs
Calcium
Magnesium
Lecithin
Fish oilI had a few days where I was lethargic and my dose schedule was disrupted so my trial of piracetam stopped. I will give it another go maybe next week at higher doses. I didn't notice anything at 2400 mg/day. They have gone considerably higher in studies (but then following that would be quite expensive).
> What's exactly a borderline insufficency in perfusion in areas of brain ? Also with the help of dictionaries I didn't understand anything : o
Not enough blood flowing about in your head.
> final review: ritalin like effects but the duration of the effect is longer (about 12 hours) the side effects are more tolerable, the positive effects are better in many respects
...
> Yesterday evening after the effect of tyrosine fade out I was sure I would have not be able to sleep ... I get a little hypo after a stimulant fades out (also with Anafranil, which has for many respects and paradoxically stimulant properties) ... Therefore I had to take Serpax (a benzo) ... I know this is not a sharp solution but sometimes I *must* sleep a decent number of hours if I don't want to be uptight and edgy the
> day after ... Oh God, I'm talking so much !OK, you can try this... tyrosine when you wake up, maybe some tyrosine before lunch. Then take tryptophan with dinner and have some carbohydrates then (insulin assists tryptophan uptake throught the LNAAT).
> > Whatever else, make sure you are getting some B3 and magnesium. :-)
>
> This is the content of Minervitam:
>
> every capsule:
>
> A 0,8 mg
> E 10 mg
> B1 1,4 mg
> B2 1,6 mg
> pantotenic acid (?) 6 mg (could be B3 ?)Nope, that's B5.
> B6 2 mg
> Niacine (?) 18 mg
> Vitamin C 60 mg
> Magnesium 90 mg
> Iron 14 mg
> Zinc 15mg
> Copper 1,2 mg
> Manganese 10,0 mg
> Iodium 0,15 mg
> Vitamin D3 5,0 mg
> Vitamin B12 1,0 mgIs the "B12" cyanocobalamin or methylcobalamin?
> Falacine 0,20 mg
Hmm, don't know this one.
> Is it worth to take it in your opinion ?
I'll need to think about it. It's not giving you B3 though. How many capsules do you take?
> Thanks for all the suggestions and care, I will answer to the other post as far as possible
> Bye !You're welcome. :-)
Posted by Francesco on November 13, 2003, at 14:07:30
In reply to Re: An Idea » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 11:36:53
> Grape Seed OPCs
Which is the active ingrendient of Grape Seed ? I asked about it to the pharmacist and he asked me what I need in particular ...> Calcium
> Magnesium
> Lecithin
> Fish oilUff ... life is too short to try all this stuff !!! ;-) (I prefer to try them separately at first to understand if they affect me and how)
Ok, let's start from fish oil ... how much ?
are you taking it for ADHD, OCD or possibile BP ?> Not enough blood flowing about in your head.
You could bet I have that problem ;-)
> OK, you can try this... tyrosine when you wake up, maybe some tyrosine before lunch. Then take tryptophan with dinner and have some carbohydrates then (insulin assists tryptophan uptake throught the LNAAT).
I will try it. But why did you say that tyrosine washes out the benefits of triptophan ? Aren't the two paths completely indipendent ? (Of course I'm asking because I don't know)
> Is the "B12" cyanocobalamin or methylcobalamin?
There is nothing more written on the label.
>
> > Is it worth to take it in your opinion ?> I'll need to think about it. It's not giving you B3 though. How many capsules do you take?
Just one per day. Is magnesium in it enough ?
I'll try to ask for B3 ... I wouldn't be astonished to discover is not OCT in Italy : oToday I took 1000 mg of tryptophan (500+500)
It helps with concentration but in a different way than tyrosine. I would say that tyrosine helps with not going out of the tracks but concentration (in reading) is better on tryptophane. So this could confirm the thesis that my concentration problem could be also serotonin-relatedDopamine AND serotonin related ? that is to say ADHD+OCD, simplicistically speaking ... I don't think I have particular problems with NE ... my energy level is normally normal while on 500mg of tyrosine is "more" than normal ... sorry if I have said some very stupid thing ;-)
"Side-effects" of triptophane: sleepiness, carbo-cravings, and ... surprise ... a little social phobia !
adjuntive questions: which is the average half life of tyrosine and triptophane ?
More than one poster said something like this: "I feel better *the day after* having taken supplements (if I skip the dose)" ... I find this generally true for me (not only for supplements but for almost everything I've taken) ... do you have any idea about this ?
Ok, thanks for all in advance ... I have sore throat again, hope it's not tryptophan ! (same problem with anafranil, maybe dued to salivar problems and consequent bladder infection)
Bye !
Posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 21:51:17
In reply to Re: An Idea, posted by Francesco on November 13, 2003, at 14:07:30
> > Grape Seed OPCs
> Which is the active ingrendient of Grape Seed ? I asked about it to the pharmacist and he asked me what I need in particular ...OPCs = oligomeric proanthocyandins
Extracts from grape seed, cranberry seed, and pine bark (French trademarked as Pycnogenol)
This can be hit or miss. I take it for the anti-oxidant property. I think it's helped with my skin, but not my head so much.
> > Calcium
> > Magnesium
> > Lecithin
> > Fish oil
>
> Uff ... life is too short to try all this stuff !!! ;-) (I prefer to try them separately at first to understand if they affect me and how)I brought Ca+Mg on at the same time, and the lecithin+fish oil at another time.
> Ok, let's start from fish oil ... how much ?
> are you taking it for ADHD, OCD or possibile BP ?I no longer think too much in those categories anymore really.
Lecithin and fish oil improve my visual clarity and connection with the world... I think.
> > OK, you can try this... tyrosine when you wake up, maybe some tyrosine before lunch. Then take tryptophan with dinner and have some carbohydrates then (insulin assists tryptophan uptake throught the LNAAT).
>
> I will try it. But why did you say that tyrosine washes out the benefits of triptophan ? Aren't the two paths completely indipendent ? (Of course I'm asking because I don't know)No, both can only go through the LNAAT. And tyrosine will dominate unless you have lots of insulin in your blood.
> > Is the "B12" cyanocobalamin or methylcobalamin?
Both can be called B12, but the methylcobalamin form is better from the standoint of improving methylation.
> There is nothing more written on the label.
> >
> > > Is it worth to take it in your opinion ?Depends. What are your other options? It's almost certainly better than nothing.
> > I'll need to think about it. It's not giving you B3 though. How many capsules do you take?
>
> Just one per day. Is magnesium in it enough ?
> I'll try to ask for B3 ... I wouldn't be astonished to discover is not OCT in Italy : oOne of those a day doesn't look like very much, compared even to the US RDA. Larry would break it down better than I could though. I'd suggest you ask him about it.
> adjuntive questions: which is the average half life of tyrosine and triptophane ?
Beats me. They were rather short acting for me (~4 hours), but I don't know about you or other people.
> More than one poster said something like this: "I feel better *the day after* having taken supplements (if I skip the dose)" ... I find this generally true for me (not only for supplements but for almost everything I've taken) ... do you have any idea about this ?
Nope.
> Ok, thanks for all in advance ... I have sore throat again, hope it's not tryptophan ! (same problem with anafranil, maybe dued to salivar problems and consequent bladder infection)
>
> Bye !Keep at it. :-)
Posted by JLx on November 15, 2003, at 6:00:18
In reply to Re: Dopamine/serotonin » JLx, posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 10:53:47
>tryptophan will lose out unless there is a fair amount of blood insulin also present (carbs therefore indirectly boost tryptophan uptake).
I read Judith Wurtman's book, "The Serotonin Solution" about that, which is where I got the idea to eat potatoes to boost serotonin. She said that the carb to protein ratio should be 5:1. She also said that starchy-carbs and sugar would give this trypto-boosting effect but that fruit would not. I don't recall WHY not, though.
The problem for me is that I'm one of those who crave carbs more the more I eat them, so this is not a good general solution.
> > For limbic problems, to raise norepinephrine and dopamine: tyrosine, DLPA and SAM-e.> He recommends limbic problems be treated with SSRIs as well, so they can be serotonergic as well.
Yes, I noticed that too. They can't be very serotonergic though, or I think I'd be sleeping better, as I was before I started taking tyrosine.
> IIRC, the only DIRECT neurotransmitter boost from SAMe is epinepherine/adrenaline. But there are plenty of other indirect things going on I do not understand so well yet.
What I noticed about SAMe was the physical boost of energy it seemed to give me.
> You've already got the main idea: Reserve tyrosine for first-thing-in-the-morning. Gradually add on more 5-HTP until sleep improves. That's all I can suggest at this point.Weirdly enough, if I take 100 mg of 5-HTP instead of 50 at night, I feel worse in the morning (and haven't slept any better either). I ordered some tryptophan because it sounds like from my reading here and there that it is considered better for insomnia than 5-HTP. I'm hoping....
> If you are luckly, TMG will smooth things out and you might be able to drop precursor loading altogether. But that's only if your problem is elevated homocystiene/depressed SAMe.I suspect that it's more complicated than that, especially as I have hormone fluctuations into the mix as well.
> You can see why I am glad I can just take TMG and not have to worry about balancing these effects out over the course of the day.
Indeed.
Thanks for your help.
JL
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