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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 29 to 53 of 91. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 19, 2003, at 9:44:47
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by matthhhh on September 19, 2003, at 7:16:13
> actually i did have a response to 5htp it made me tired and foggy headed
Try using it at night only, then. Tryptophan would likely have a similar effect. I was once prescribed tryptophan as a sleep aid, but I can't say it did much for me.
Lar
Posted by matthhhh on September 20, 2003, at 19:04:03
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!! » matthhhh, posted by Larry Hoover on September 19, 2003, at 9:44:47
Hey Lar, thanks for the reply. i went on the website address you gave for the tryptophan and the only tryptophan i could find on there was for GP Equine which means it is for horses! is this the stuff u were talking about?
Posted by matthhhh on September 20, 2003, at 19:07:30
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!! » matthhhh, posted by Larry Hoover on September 19, 2003, at 9:44:47
Anyone had any success with the ultra pure tryptophan order from that gp website?
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 5:31:06
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by matthhhh on September 20, 2003, at 19:04:03
> Hey Lar, thanks for the reply. i went on the website address you gave for the tryptophan and the only tryptophan i could find on there was for GP Equine which means it is for horses! is this the stuff u were talking about?
Yup. No reason to pay more than that, is all. Get the ultra-pure stuff.
Lar
Posted by matthhhh on September 23, 2003, at 8:17:25
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!! » matthhhh, posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 5:31:06
Hey Lar, just wondering if you had contacted to the GP company to see if it was ok to take that tryptophan. Im would just be a little concerned about taking it because it says its for horses. thanks
Posted by McPac on September 23, 2003, at 20:18:40
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by matthhhh on September 23, 2003, at 8:17:25
Since I started taking it my appetite has increased significantly---I now eat a couple of hundred apples every day, 8 buckets of oats, and a few bales of hay....and yesterday I ran the mile in 42 seconds! lol, just kidding, I actually DID buy that product matt (just haven't taken any yet)
Posted by matthhhh on September 24, 2003, at 5:58:52
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by McPac on September 23, 2003, at 20:18:40
Hey MacPac, so how do u know its safe for humans? i mean if it was suitable for humans you would think they would have a separate brand wouldnt u?
Posted by tealady on September 24, 2003, at 17:42:34
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by matthhhh on September 24, 2003, at 5:58:52
> Hey MacPac, so how do u know its safe for humans? i mean if it was suitable for humans you would think they would have a separate brand wouldnt u?
No, I think you need to think harder on this one.
Could it be that perhaps the US has made it illegal for tyrptophan to be marketed to humans....?That's probably why no companies market it...(more a political thingy)Now it is probably still legal to market for vetinary type use, so those companies who were marketing to vets , racehorse breeders etc can still continue to do so..Think again, how much in monetary terms are racehorses for example worth?
So the question one should be asking is how does the purity of these products differ from the purity that woud have been marketed for human consumption?If you are really worried , I guess you could import a human product..it's one thing they ARE allowed to market for human consumption in Australia!
I think the US law is that it is legal to bring in quantities of some drugs for personal use ... up to 3 months worth ..however I am not an expert on US law or is something I have any desire or need to learn..it's probably different for each state anyway!
Jan
Posted by matthhhh on September 24, 2003, at 17:47:49
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!! » matthhhh, posted by tealady on September 24, 2003, at 17:42:34
i didnt think that tryptophan was illegal in the US , i know of a few other US companies that sell tryptophan but it is much more expensive
Posted by tealady on September 24, 2003, at 18:30:07
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by matthhhh on September 24, 2003, at 17:47:49
I wasn't sure . Whe I looked at iherbm all that came up was 5HTP.
http://www.iherb.com/tryptophan.htmlI thought The US may possibly have clamped down on it due to the tryptophan myalgias scare. You have to do a google on this one.
This is why a lot of docs are cautious over tryptophan , as they are not sure what is happening I think..and this was stuff for HUMAN consumption too...so you can never be completely certain.
http://www.mts.net/~baumel/ems.html
agree with Larry on this..if the question is a choice between 5HTP and tryptophan..which is what the thread was on... (either of which I've had any personal experience with), the safer one,IMO, from what is currently known..and this is always changing, appears to be tryptophan
JanPS it wouldn't be something I would be taking unless I thought I showed a real need for it (either of them)
Think hard on this one <Grin>..
Posted by tealady on September 24, 2003, at 18:32:20
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!! » matthhhh, posted by tealady on September 24, 2003, at 18:30:07
correction- edit
(either of which I've had NO any personal experience with),
Posted by matthhhh on September 24, 2003, at 19:43:31
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by tealady on September 24, 2003, at 18:32:20
actually about 5 htp and tryptophan - neither are bad for you. Their amino acids which are the basic form of food, and not in the least bit dangerous.
Posted by tealady on September 24, 2003, at 20:08:51
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by matthhhh on September 24, 2003, at 5:58:52
> Hey MacPac, so how do u know its safe for humans? i mean if it was suitable for humans you would think they would have a separate brand wouldnt u?
just one more point...
no, I think they way the business world may work is that you get a license to produce supplements, etc. for vetinary(animal use) purposes only..so they have no reason or license to bring in a "human" brand. It does not however automatically imply inferiority..just that one should check to see if it is suitable ie. identical to what would be sold to humans and as pure..and you can't expect the company to help with this much as they are not licensed to sell for human consumption.The only things I think, that are really safe are those with a long history of safe use. (unfortunately this doesn't always suit the pharmaceutical industry)
The serotonin drugs may be just as dangerous as the tryptophans etc .. ...serotonin syndrome?but if you do need them, you have to decide, perhaps together with a doc? And OK it with your doc know if you do decide to start taking any of these, especially if already taking other drugs...
Jan
Posted by tealady on September 24, 2003, at 23:12:44
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by matthhhh on September 24, 2003, at 19:43:31
> actually about 5 htp and tryptophan - neither are bad for you. Their amino acids which are the basic form of food, and not in the least bit dangerous.
Sorry Bob,I give up. The above statement IS dangerous.
Actually warm milk is VERY good advice..high in serotonin,
Good serontonin foods include.. like banana, nuts, avocado, yogurt, cheese, turkey, milk (warmed )
So a glass of warm milk before bed that small children are often given does some good..and is a safe way to get serotonin, unless a strong need is really indicated (as admittedly applies to some folk here. )Jan
Posted by matthhhh on September 25, 2003, at 7:27:55
In reply to Suggest you try a glass of warm milk! » matthhhh, posted by tealady on September 24, 2003, at 23:12:44
i guess you have limited knowledge of amino acids then. They are the basic form of food and are the most harmless supplements out there.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 25, 2003, at 8:12:19
In reply to Re: Suggest you try a glass of warm milk!, posted by matthhhh on September 25, 2003, at 7:27:55
> i guess you have limited knowledge of amino acids then.
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't post anything that could lead them to feel put down, thanks.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 25, 2003, at 8:17:21
In reply to Suggest you try a glass of warm milk! » matthhhh, posted by tealady on September 24, 2003, at 23:12:44
> > actually about 5 htp and tryptophan - neither are bad for you. Their amino acids which are the basic form of food, and not in the least bit dangerous.
>
> Sorry Bob,I give up. The above statement IS dangerous.In what way? Could you be more specific? Thanks,
Bob
Posted by JLx on September 25, 2003, at 19:40:05
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by matthhhh on September 24, 2003, at 5:58:52
Tryptophan is illegal to sell as a human supplement in the U.S. -- or so I had understood. Perhaps it's changed just recently, or there is some loophole so that this site can offer it here: (to order) http://www.healthrecovery.com/ (info) http://www.healthrecovery.com/PageMill_Product_Files/Tryptophan.html
That site is from an addiction treatment center of the woman, Joan Mathews Larson, who wrote "Depression Free Naturally" which I've read and would recomend, even though it is a few years old now. The last time I checked that site, a few months ago, she wasn't selling tryptophan herself but was referring people to this site: (order) http://www.biochemicals.com/orderonline.php3 (info)http://www.biochemicals.com/productinfo.php3?id=22 There, tryptophan is labeled for "veterinary use only" to get around the law presumably, as the information sheet is clearly about humans, not pets.
If the equine site is a comparable product, it's clearly a LOT cheaper. What I wondered, is since it says it's 90% pure -- what's in the other 10%?
Tryptophan is also sold as a drug in Canada, btw, called Tryptan -- available online through pharmacies, some of which may or may not require a prescription. It's available through compounding pharmacies in the U.S. too -- if you can find a doc to prescribe it.
Here's a page about that, by a woman who treated her own depression with natural health remedies: http://depressionvitamins.com/tryptophan/ There's lots of good info on that site.
I'm still not clear whether tryptophan or 5-HTP is supposed to be best. Michael Murray -- who is a naturopathic doctor I usually respect -- says 5-HTP is better. http://www.doctormurray.com/5htp/tryptophan.htm I'm reading his book now, "5-HTP: The Natural Way to Boost Serotonin and Overcome Depression, Obesity, and Insomnia
5-HTP". Here are the FAQs from his site: http://www.doctormurray.com/B5htpFAQ.htmI had all this stuff already bookmarked. :)
> Hey MacPac, so how do u know its safe for humans? i mean if it was suitable for humans you would think they would have a separate brand wouldnt u?
Posted by tealady on September 25, 2003, at 20:04:48
In reply to Re: statement is dangerous, posted by Dr. Bob on September 25, 2003, at 8:17:21
> Bob
I guess you have limited knowledge of amino acids then. They are the basic form of food and are the most harmless supplements out there.
Hi Dr Bob,
Matth did not offend me and I readily admit, I have a very limited knowledge of amino acids, definitely way more than 99% I do not know!
I did get frustrated and should not have become so sarcastic with Matth...which is why I wanted to walk away. I apologise for that.> > > actually about 5 htp and tryptophan - neither are bad for you. Their amino acids which are the basic form of food, and not in the least bit dangerous.
> >
> > Sorry Bob,I give up. The above statement IS dangerous.
>
> In what way? Could you be more specific? Thanks,
>I personally had quite an effect from tyrosine at 2000mg, one I doubt I could ever produce from eating copious amounts of any food.
The effect is no doubt magnified as I am on thyroid meds which has a MAOI effect from what I have read from links provided here.
I've found between 500mg to 1000mg will probably be very helpful though for me though.
If I were to follow Matth, and treat tyrosine as perhaps a food and have no concern as to amounts I swallowed I could have serious side effects.... pulse and blood pressure raised possibly to dangerous levels for startersAlso I based the statement on the posts just above to Matth where I provided links to some doubts about the safety of taking at least overhigh doses of tryptophan.
This is not to say that some people will not get great benefit from tryptophan.
To make a statement saying that anything which is, I would think, only a part of a food and not a complete food, can be used as safely as a food is, IMO dangerous.
As I admit, I am no expert..but think of aspirin. One cannot take unlimited quantities of it, even though it is in foods such as an apple.
I guess my concern is much deeper and wider than this though and is probably what led me to react as I did. I'll try to continue in admin.
Thanks, Jan
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 25, 2003, at 21:00:25
In reply to Re: statement is dangerous » Dr. Bob, posted by tealady on September 25, 2003, at 20:04:48
Posted by matthhhh on September 25, 2003, at 21:13:55
In reply to Re: statement is dangerous » Dr. Bob, posted by tealady on September 25, 2003, at 20:04:48
sorry if caused hard feelings, didnt mean too
Posted by tealady on September 25, 2003, at 22:25:08
In reply to Re: statement is dangerous, posted by matthhhh on September 25, 2003, at 21:13:55
> sorry if caused hard feelings, didnt mean too
Matth,
Please accept my apology. Didn't mean to either.
I overreacted.
Just got concerned as I do believe amino acids are far more powerful than foods in effect.
Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 26, 2003, at 16:54:26
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by matthhhh on September 24, 2003, at 17:47:49
> i didnt think that tryptophan was illegal in the US , i know of a few other US companies that sell tryptophan but it is much more expensive
Tryptophan was completely banned by the FDA, but with no fanfare, the ban was lifted in 1994. For some of the details, here's an info sheet from the FDA website:
http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/ds-tryp1.html
The critical bit of information is the intended use for the tryptophan. If for human consumption, the manufacturer is wholly responsible for the safety of the product. That's why the price is now so high for products marketed for human use. The FDA could no longer reasonably ban the product, but they could put in force regulations not applied to any other supplement, guaranteeing that the price would be high. A cynic would argue that any company marketing tryprophan for human use is doing so to make windfall profits.
Lar <a cynic>
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 26, 2003, at 16:56:44
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!!, posted by matthhhh on September 24, 2003, at 5:58:52
> Hey MacPac, so how do u know its safe for humans? i mean if it was suitable for humans you would think they would have a separate brand wouldnt u?
Regulations for veterinary supplements are far more stringent than for humans, in the United States. Alpo beef stew is better for you than the supermarket version.
You may have some concerns about using a veterinary product, but I don't.
Lar
Posted by joebob on September 26, 2003, at 19:36:28
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!! » matthhhh, posted by Larry Hoover on September 26, 2003, at 16:56:44
this is from joan larson's site which i have not yet seen mentioned on this board...
i would like to see what you guys think of her work.....
check it out at:
http://www.healthrecovery.com/biochemical_depression.html++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A Word of Caution About 5-Hydroxytryptophan or 5-HTP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Taken from the Life Extension Foundation newsletterThe reasons for the potential risks of 5-HT were brought to our attention by Steven B Harris, M.D. He explained that: 5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HT) is one step closer to serotonin than tryptophan. The Sequence is as follows.
Tryptophan > 5-Hydroxytryptophan > Serotonin
Based on the above metabolic sequence it would appear desirable to use 5-HT instead of tryptophan since 5-HT more readily converts to serotonin. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that is often deficient in the brains of depressed people. Boosting serotonin can alleviate depression in some people and reduce carbohydrate cravings in others, thus inducing weight loss. Here's why 5-HT will not work for most Americans, and could be lethal to some people: The blood-brain barrier does not allow significant absorption of serotonin from the blood. The brain does have a large neutral amino acid pump that freely allows tryptophan and 5-HT into the bran for conversion into serotonin. The process by which 5-H is converted into serotonin is called decarboxylation. If decarboxylation occurs before 5-HT is absorbed by the brain, than blood levels of serotonin will elevate significantly, but very little serotonin will enter the brain. When Europeans take 5-HT, they are often prescribed the dopa decarboxylase inhibitor carbidopa that prevents 5-HT from being converted into serotonin until it reaches the brain. Americans do not take carbidopa with 5-HT and the result is possible serotonin overload in the blood, with virtually no serotonin reaching the brain. We will describe later the dangers of overloading the blood with serotonin. Americans taking 5-HT are more vulnerable to blood serotonin overload because, unlike most Europeans who are vitamin deficient, Americans who use 5-HT usually take large doses of vitamin B6 as well. Vitamin B6 rapidly converts 5-HT into serotonin before it can reach the brain. Even when combined with carbidopa, high levels of vitamin B6 will break through the carbidopa barrier and insure that 5-HT converts into serotonin in the blood before the it can reach the brain The multiple health benefits of vitamin B6 are too important, we believe, to recommend that people avoid taking vitamin B6 just to enable them to try using 5-HT to boost brain serotonin levels. This may be difficult anyway without also taking carbidopa, which is only available in the US. as a prescription drug. At the very best, those who take vitamin B6 with 5-HT are probably wasting their money. Unfortunately, high serotonin in the blood in not benign. Anyone suffering from heart disease should avoid 5-HT because the elevation in blood serotonin could cause coronary artery spasm an/or abnormal platelet aggregation, which are risk factors for sudden death heart attack. Here is the real frightening aspect of serotonin overload, as described by Dr. Harris: "Serotonin causes not only harmless flushing and diarrhea, but people with serotonin secreting tumors (hindgut carcinoids) also have problems with fibrosis of the endocardium and valves of their right hearts with can cause heart failure. The effect can also be seen with dietary intake of only modest amounts of serotonin, and there has actually been described in the medical literature, a tribe of South Sea islanders with right heart fibrosis as a result of eating green banana mush, which poisons them with its serotonin content" Dr. Harris goes on to state that people who ingest several hundred milligrams a day of 5-HT with B6 and without a decarboxylase inhibitor would expect to see urinary excretion of a serotonin metabolite in the same range as a person with a serotonin secreting tumor. Based upon Dr. Harris' report the Foundation had its analysts conduct an extensive review of the medical literature and have come to the following preliminary conclusions. 1) For 5-HT to boost serotonin levels in the brain it is necessary to: a)Take 50 mg of carbidopa before each 5-HT dose. Carbidopa is a prescription drug. b)Limit vitamin B6 supplementation to a small dose taken at least six hours before or after 5-HT carbidopa dosing. c) Have a urinary test to measure a metabolite of serotonin called 5-hydroxy indoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) on a regular basis. As long as 5-HIAA levels are normal, than 5-HT intake would be safe. 2) Those with existing cardiovascular disease, including atrial fibrillation, coronary artery disease, congestive heart failure, cardiomyopathy, valvular disease or pulmonary hypertension may want to avoid 5-HT completely. One Foundation analyst felt that 81 mg a day of aspirin and 500 mg a day of magnesium would reduce the risk of 5-HT inducing a heart attack. 3)The effects of 5-HT by itself elevating blood serotonin levels are extremely individualistic. Some people may not experience any blood serotonin increase, while others could suffer from a lethal serotonin peripheral overload. 4) Despite the potential dangers of 5-HT, most FDA-approved drugs to treat depression and obesity appear to be more toxic. 5) At the time of this printing, we have not been able to verify whether 5-HT induced serotonin overload would cause fibrosis of the aortic valve and destruction of the heart muscle. Based on the potential health risks of ingesting 5-HIT, Bio Recovery has decided not to offer it tat this time. we encourage anyone seeking to use 5-HT to follow strictly the above protocol for safe 5-HT supplementation. We'll post further evidence regarding 5-HTP as soon as it becomes available. This warning applies only to 5-hydroxy tryptophan (5-HT), not tryptophan itself. Published studies show that tryptophan does not readily convert into serotonin in the blood, but that 5-HT does, since 5-HT can convert directly into serotonin while tryptophan has to go through one additional metabolic step which protects against blood serotonin overload.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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