Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1099974

Shown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

If rTMS and ECT didn't work for me would Deep TMS?

Posted by meltingpot on July 28, 2018, at 12:15:43

I know there is no way of knowing and my guess is that nobody on this board has tried all three.

Was thinking of giving deep TMS a try but kind of cynical about it given that I've tried rTMS and ECT and neither seemed to do much. But then both times I was on Seroxat which helps so wasn't as bad as I could have been.


Denise

 

Re: If rTMS and ECT didn't work for me would Deep TMS?

Posted by Hugh on July 29, 2018, at 16:35:00

In reply to If rTMS and ECT didn't work for me would Deep TMS?, posted by meltingpot on July 28, 2018, at 12:15:43

> I know there is no way of knowing and my guess is that nobody on this board has tried all three.

JohnLA tried two of the three. ECT didn't help him, but Deep TMS helped him significantly. The clinician who treated him said she had seen a "higher rate of efficacy" with Deep TMS than with rTMS.

Prior to trying Deep TMS, JohnLA had also tried medical marijuana, ketamine infusions, and an experimental treatment at UCLA called TNS.

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/non-invasive-therapy-significantly-169741

Of course, there's no guarantee that Deep TMS would help you. There's a good chance that it wouldn't help.

Synchronized TMS (sTMS) appears to help a much larger percentage of patients than Deep TMS, but it probably won't be available for a few years yet.

http://www.neosync.com/our-technology.html

A treatment that's currently available that has helped people who have failed both TMS and ECT is neurofeedback. I've done this treatment, and it decreased my anxiety significantly and decreased my depression somewhat.

Neurofeedback isn't nearly as popular in the UK as it is in the US, but there are probably a few dozen neurofeedback clinicians working in the UK.

 

Re: If rTMS and ECT didn't work for me would Deep TMS?

Posted by meltingpot on July 30, 2018, at 3:11:57

In reply to Re: If rTMS and ECT didn't work for me would Deep TMS?, posted by Hugh on July 29, 2018, at 16:35:00

Thanks Hugh. Maybe I will give deep TMS and neurofeedback a try. What medications are you taking?

Denise

 

To Hugh - Neurofeedback

Posted by meltingpot on July 30, 2018, at 3:24:10

In reply to Re: If rTMS and ECT didn't work for me would Deep TMS?, posted by Hugh on July 29, 2018, at 16:35:00

Hi Hugh,

I found the below link on neurofeedback and the main message seems to be as per the below. Although anything that helped you has got to be a good thing, are you sure that the benefits you received weren't from being in a clinic and receiving attention from a caring practitioner as it says in the article?

In other words, most of the benefits seem to be a placebo effect based around the experience of attending a clinic and receiving attention from a caring practitioner, rather than having anything to do with learning to control your own brain waves. "EEG-nf entails a degree of deception," the authors conclude, "the putative mechanisms differ from the actual underlying mechanisms. Moreover, cheaper and less time-intensive options ma.

Denise

 

Re: If rTMS and ECT didn't work for me would Deep TMS?

Posted by Hugh on July 30, 2018, at 13:28:28

In reply to Re: If rTMS and ECT didn't work for me would Deep TMS?, posted by meltingpot on July 30, 2018, at 3:11:57

> Thanks Hugh. Maybe I will give deep TMS and neurofeedback a try. What medications are you taking?

I'm not taking any antidepressant medication now. I've tried about a dozen antidepressants. Generally, anything affecting serotonin or norepinephrine made me feel even worse. Dopamine makes me feel better, but I'm extremely sensitive to stimulants, so I tolerate them poorly.

Here's a partial rundown of antidepressants I've taken:

Clomipramine made it very difficult for me to concentrate. Trazodone made me groggy. Nefazodone made me very irritable. Buspirone caused suicidal ideation. All of them made my heart race. Mirtazapine helped me sleep, and it lessened my depression and anxiety somewhat. I think this was because it's an antihistamine. Selegiline also lessened my depression somewhat, but I gave it up because it was overly stimulating.

I used to take Xanax for anxiety, as needed. I took lorazepam for insomnia for three years, and then I developed dependence and tolerance and I started to suffer from inter-dose withdrawal. Tapering off of benzos was hellish and took four months.

The prescription medication I had the best response to, by far, was the muscle relaxant baclofen. I was taking this for muscle spasms in my back, and it had the unexpected side effect of eliminating my depression and anxiety. This is probably because baclofen increases striatal dopamine levels. Unfortunately, after one week, the baclofen started to cause terrible insomnia, so I had to stop taking it. I've experimented with lower dosages of baclofen since then, unsuccessfully.

 

Re: To Hugh - Neurofeedback

Posted by Hugh on July 30, 2018, at 14:17:52

In reply to To Hugh - Neurofeedback, posted by meltingpot on July 30, 2018, at 3:24:10

No, I don't attritbute my improvement to a placebo effect from a caring practitioner. I've seen quite a few caring practitioners, conventional and unconventional, over the years, and most of them have failed to help me.

I'm familiar with the Christain Jarrett article you're quoting from. It's based largely on the writings of the late Barry Beyerstein. Both Jarrett's and Beyerstein's understanding of neurofeedback is very shallow. For example, they seem to think that neurofeedback is all about increasing the amplitude of alpha waves (8-12 hertz). One of the several goals of my neurofeedback protocol was to decrease the amplitude of alpha waves.

Here's a rebuttal to Jarrett's article:

http://www.braintrainuk.com/read-this-before-buying-christian-jarretts-greatest-myth-of-the-brain/

If you're interested in learning about neurofeedback, read A Symphony in the Brain by Jim Robbins. He's a science writer for The New York Times.

You might find this neurofeedback site interesting:

https://www.facebook.com/braintrainingproducts

 

To Hugh

Posted by meltingpot on July 31, 2018, at 7:21:18

In reply to Re: If rTMS and ECT didn't work for me would Deep TMS?, posted by Hugh on July 30, 2018, at 13:28:28

Hi Hugh,

It's interesting but horrible for you that many of the antidepressants you took caused awful problems. Did you try going up really high on them? One thing that I don't understand is why if I take relatively low doses of SSRIs I feel horrendous, feel like I have a lump in my chest, feel nauseous, can't concentrate and very anxious but if I up the dose to the max straight away the really bad symptoms go away.

It's also interesting that you say a muscle relaxant helped your depression. I've always noticed when I first every took prothiaden (a tryclic) and now when I take 40mg of Seroxat the muscles around my chest and rib cage seem to unravel. I'm not sure why.

How did you get through the benzo withdrawals and did you use neurofeedback to help you with that?

Denise


 

Re: To Hugh - Neurofeedback

Posted by meltingpot on July 31, 2018, at 7:29:04

In reply to Re: To Hugh - Neurofeedback, posted by Hugh on July 30, 2018, at 14:17:52

Hi Hugh,

Sorry, I didn't mean to insult your intelligence by suggesting that just having somebody empathetic sitting with you for an hour or so would be enough to help your depression. It's just I'm really cynical about these alternative treatments. For me, when I'm feeling suicidal and extremely anxious, the idea of being given something like Rhodiola Rosea is something akin to spraying lavendar around a woman in child birth, when she just wants an epidural!

I read the link you sent me on neurofeedback, thanks for that. It sounds interesting. I will do a bit more research on it. How could you tell it was helping you?

I came off my seroxat around January of this year and I was kind of dabbling around with all of the meds that I have. I was doing ok until about two weeks ago and then all of a sudden I started to spiral down, panic attacks, really empty, disorientated feeling, constant anxiety, no interest in anything and not sleeping for days, not eating and retching, then come the suicidal thoughts. I'm back on the Seroxat now and feeling better but would something like Neurofeedback help me when I'm in that state do you think?

Denise

 

Re: To Hugh meltingpot

Posted by Hugh on July 31, 2018, at 11:23:02

In reply to To Hugh, posted by meltingpot on July 31, 2018, at 7:21:18

> Hi Hugh,
>
> It's interesting but horrible for you that many of the antidepressants you took caused awful problems. Did you try going up really high on them?

With most of them, I gradually worked my way up to the maximum dosage. The higher the dosage, the worse I felt.

> How did you get through the benzo withdrawals and did you use neurofeedback to help you with that?

Getting off of benzos was the hardest thing I've ever done. I tapered lorazepam for two months, and would spend hours each day pacing back and forth and rubbing my palms together. Then I did a crossover to diazepam, which has the longest half-life of all the benzos. I didn't feel nearly as agitated during the two months that I tapered diazepam, but I was still severely depressed.

I didn't do neurofeedback during my taper. But The Ashton Manual was very helpful.

https://benzo.org.uk/manual/

 

Re: To Hugh

Posted by meltingpot on July 31, 2018, at 11:52:35

In reply to Re: To Hugh meltingpot, posted by Hugh on July 31, 2018, at 11:23:02

Hi Hugh,

That must have been absolutely awful for you. It sounds like me when I'm feeling really bad, pacing and chain smoking.

If you had done neurofeedback during benzo withdrawal and it had helped then that would definately convince me to try neurofeedback.

What did you do for your severe depression?

Have you ever tried Zyprexa or Lyrica for your anxiety?

Denise

 

Re: To Hugh - Neurofeedback meltingpot

Posted by Hugh on July 31, 2018, at 11:55:46

In reply to Re: To Hugh - Neurofeedback, posted by meltingpot on July 31, 2018, at 7:29:04

> Sorry, I didn't mean to insult your intelligence by suggesting that just having somebody empathetic sitting with you for an hour or so would be enough to help your depression.

No offense taken.

> It's just I'm really cynical about these alternative treatments. For me, when I'm feeling suicidal and extremely anxious, the idea of being given something like Rhodiola Rosea is something akin to spraying lavendar around a woman in child birth, when she just wants an epidural!

I've tried Rhodiola Rosea, and lavender aromatherapy, and more herbs and supplements than I can count. Neurofeedback is the treatment that's helped me the most, long-term. This includes all treatments, conventional and unconventional.

> I read the link you sent me on neurofeedback, thanks for that. It sounds interesting. I will do a bit more research on it. How could you tell it was helping you?

For over a year before I tried neurofeedback, I'd been ruminating many times a day about a former girlfriend. After about ten neurofeedback sessions, I realized that I was rarely thinking about my former girlfriend anymore.

For years, every time I went to a restaurant or to a bar, I would unconsciously rip my paper napkin into little bits. I hated this habit, and tried many times to stop it, but I couldn't. After I'd been doing neurofeedback for a while, I stopped ripping up my napkins.

I used to feel extremely self-conscious when I was out in public -- at the supermarket or the mall or while walking down a busy street. Neurofeedback eliminated this self-consciousness.

> I came off my seroxat around January of this year and I was kind of dabbling around with all of the meds that I have. I was doing ok until about two weeks ago and then all of a sudden I started to spiral down, panic attacks, really empty, disorientated feeling, constant anxiety, no interest in anything and not sleeping for days, not eating and retching, then come the suicidal thoughts. I'm back on the Seroxat now and feeling better but would something like Neurofeedback help me when I'm in that state do you think?

There's a good chance that neurofeedback would help you. There are several neurofeedback protocols. I greatly admire Peter Van Deusen, a neurofeedback clinician and trainer. A few years ago, he developed a protocol called Whole-brain Training Circuit. There are six Van Deusen-trained neurofeedback clinicians working in the UK. You can find them here:

https://provider.brain-trainer.com/brain-trainers

 

Re: To Hugh - Neurofeedback

Posted by meltingpot on August 9, 2018, at 10:52:45

In reply to Re: To Hugh - Neurofeedback meltingpot, posted by Hugh on July 31, 2018, at 11:55:46

Hi Hugh,

Thanks for the advice. Strangely I only really ruminate about previous boyfriends/dates when I'm on antidepressants, when I'm not on them I stop really caring.

Anyway, I will think about neurofeedback, it's just I'm reluctant to fork out money for things that might not work. I was thinking of trying Deep TMS but not sure about that either as I spent around 5,000 having normal rTMS in Vancouver and it didn't really do anything.

I've started to have therapy again as a lot of people have said that my problems maybe related to having had a very unstable childhood (My mum moved me around quite a bit and I went to a lot of different schools so never had much chance to settle and form a stable group of friends, also was bullied a bit). However, I don't ever remember feeling depressed, anxious or helpless back then. So it's difficult to equate what happened in my childhood with the mental health issues I've experienced since the age of 17.

Also, not sure, what good it is talking about my childhood week after week.


Denise

 

Re: To Hugh meltingpot

Posted by Hugh on August 10, 2018, at 22:33:08

In reply to Re: To Hugh, posted by meltingpot on July 31, 2018, at 11:52:35

> Hi Hugh,
>
> That must have been absolutely awful for you. It sounds like me when I'm feeling really bad, pacing and chain smoking.

Benzo withdrawal taught me the true meaning of "living hell."

> What did you do for your severe depression?

I just waited it out. I was severely depressed for four months during my benzo taper. And for months after I had gotten off of benzos, I felt raw, on edge. But eventually I started to feel better again.

> Have you ever tried Zyprexa or Lyrica for your anxiety?

No, I've never tried either one. My anxiety is much better than it used to be, thanks to neurofeedback.

 

Re: To Hugh - Neurofeedback meltingpot

Posted by Hugh on August 10, 2018, at 22:46:23

In reply to Re: To Hugh - Neurofeedback, posted by meltingpot on August 9, 2018, at 10:52:45

> Hi Hugh,
>
> Thanks for the advice. Strangely I only really ruminate about previous boyfriends/dates when I'm on antidepressants, when I'm not on them I stop really caring.

Interesting.

> Anyway, I will think about neurofeedback, it's just I'm reluctant to fork out money for things that might not work. I was thinking of trying Deep TMS but not sure about that either as I spent around 5,000 having normal rTMS in Vancouver and it didn't really do anything.

That must have hurt -- traveling all that distance and spending all that money and getting nothing out of it. After yet another failed treatment, I'll tell myself, "Oh, well, at least I gave it a try. That's another one I can cross off my list." But this fails to give me much comfort.

> I've started to have therapy again as a lot of people have said that my problems maybe related to having had a very unstable childhood (My mum moved me around quite a bit and I went to a lot of different schools so never had much chance to settle and form a stable group of friends, also was bullied a bit). However, I don't ever remember feeling depressed, anxious or helpless back then. So it's difficult to equate what happened in my childhood with the mental health issues I've experienced since the age of 17.

I'm sorry to hear that your childhood wasn't better, and that you were bullied.

> Also, not sure, what good it is talking about my childhood week after week.

There is evidence that the combination of psychotherapy and medication is more effective than either one alone. Talking about your problems can activate sluggish regions of your brain.


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