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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Escapee on September 17, 2016, at 10:57:34
2 'racetam' nootropics. Despite most racetam nootropics have 'wakefulness', 'alertness' & 'focus' properties, I have found 2 which also have Psycho / CNS stimulant properties. Phenylpiratecam & Pramiracetam.
I tried Phenylpiracetam about a year ago. It was a decent psycho-stim, but relatively short lived, and built up tolerance pretty quickly. And the stimulant properties were kinda hazy too. Still, worth a shot.
Was on Marplan at the time so started with low doses.From the beginning of this week I have been experimenting with Pramiracetam. This stuff rocks!
Haven't felt any tolerance build up yet, but I dont plan on using it very often. Recreational perhaps, or deadlines, etc.
Doses between 3-400mg have been enough. Taken with Citicoline as a choline source (plus everything else lol)
Again am on Nardil (MAOI) so started low, with 50mg & climbing with 50mg increments.Pramiracetam is a lot better and smoother than Phenylpiracetam in my opinion. Has a mild tingling sensation too.
Am I only feeling these effects because of the MAOIs? Quite possibly so, at least partly. But both are recognised as psycho-stims in general without any MAOI influence.
And yes, I will be careful.
Posted by Escapee on September 17, 2016, at 11:05:09
In reply to 2 Psycho / CNS stimulants you may not be aware of, posted by Escapee on September 17, 2016, at 10:57:34
Forgot one thing. I don't recommend using either as physical exercise / sports enhancers! Yesterday at the gym I tried 150mg Pramiracetam and I was drained in a matter of minutes. I did not attempt any cardio. I would never do that whilst on a stimulant, except for caffeine.
Pramiracetam is fat-soluble so take with a meal, or a least with milk or a milkshake.
Posted by rjlockhart37 on September 17, 2016, at 20:29:24
In reply to Re: 2 Psycho / CNS stimulants you may not be aware of, posted by Escapee on September 17, 2016, at 11:05:09
there's another thing you can order online, even on ebay, is Adrafinil, it's a older, somewhat dirtier version of provigil, but i've taken it and it does help with wakefulness, but it seems to act more on the adrenergic systems, while provigil and nuvigil just seem to use norephreinphrine....there a bit more smoother....but if you take too much adrafinil it will like caffeine, jittery and irrtible.....
it's somewhat expensive, but maybe you should check it out, i don't think it's controlled substance, not the US but maybe for other countries not sure.....
still it's a good option if you have trouble staying awake
Posted by Escapee on September 17, 2016, at 23:13:49
In reply to Re: 2 Psycho / CNS stimulants you may not be aware of, posted by rjlockhart37 on September 17, 2016, at 20:29:24
I have always suffered from Hypersomnia, whether depressed or not. I have bought adrafinil in the past (long time ago) but it did nothing. I was on phenelzine at the time and after a while the initial energizing effect wore off & I couldn't wake up in the mornings. 16+hrs sleep. But I think the adrafinil pills might have been duds.
I was put on Modafinil in the past and that worked for 2-3 days. Its was not an everyday fix for lack of mental energy, not for me so I didn't find it very useful really. Good for as-needed use perhaps. I remember the 1st day I tried it. My partner & I were walking dogs from our local dogs home. I remember feeling lighter and glowy. I ran with the dogs and played catch with them. Felt more outgoing. I built fast tolerance to it though. Went high with the dosage, well over the max. Did nothing worth while.
These meds are pretty well known. But I've never seen anyone write about racetams here. Not even Piracetam. A medication used for Alzheimer's & other memory related disorders. The rest of the racetams seem to be simply left under the heading 'test chemicals'. But they are very popular on other sites & for many people especially those studying.
They all work by increasing/enhancing one's mental energy, usually via the neurotransmitter Acetylcholine. The 'memory' molecule. Enhancing not just memory but also alertness, wakefulness, focus, learning, etc, etc...
But each is different, unique from the next. Many also effecting the usual brain-chems talked about on this site. Including dopamine.I personally take the nootropics oxiracetam, citicoline, ALCAR, omega 3s, ginkgo & guarana daily. Centrophenoxine is another favourite of mine but pretty expensive. Oxiracetam is my most favourite, its never let me down on wakefulness. Its helped me see through the frequent smog of clonazepam. I sleep less. I talk more 'without' forgetting what I was saying half way through a sentence. I also focus more on the here & now and the job in hand, rather than what others are thinking & doing. Helpful for my SA.
Aniracetam is another racetam nootropic, but its more of a calming effect instead, but still enhancing focus, memory, etc, etc... I have given it a good go but its not for me. Its very effective for some.
There are several other racetam nootropics; Piracetam, Coluracetam, Fasoracetam, Nefiracetam.
And there are heaps of other nootropics. Indeed both Adrafinil & Modafinil are nootropics, Fladrafinil too of course though its a more recent addition with hardly any differences to it's cousins.
And some are mentioned here a lot. Picamilon, L-theanine, sulbutiamine, tianeptine, choline, Omega 3s, DMAE, sunifiram, phenibut, ALCAR, alpha-GPC, vinpocetine, ginkgo, inositol and the list goes on. Some are drugs, others nutrients. And some you could call 'in between'. Also, there are some nootropics which focus more on neuro-protection than on enhancement. The majority do both.
And other drugs you wouldn't even think of as being nootropics like nicotine, caffeine & amphetamines.
Some antidepressants appear to have nootropic effects, at least partly. The NRIs in particular.
I am extremely surprised that nootropics are hardly ever spoken about here. Unless I'm missing something. Yes many are spoken about like modafinil, L-Theanine & Picamilon, but not in the context of being nootropics.
Of course it always needs to be said that everyone is different and each will have different experiences from these chemicals.
And if you intend on trying any of these (often potent) chemicals, please be sensible about it.But I tell ya, so many people are missing out. Ah well.
Escapee
Posted by SLS on September 18, 2016, at 4:40:00
In reply to Re: 2 Psycho / CNS stimulants you may not be aware of » rjlockhart37, posted by Escapee on September 17, 2016, at 23:13:49
Wow! Thanks for the information.
I was looking at pramiracetam about 15 years ago. What happened to it? Is there still interest in it? Have you ever tried it?
Oxiracetam sounds interesting. I could use as many improvements in cognition and memory as possible. I often stop mid-sentence due to cognitive slowing, difficulties with memory retrieval, and word-finding difficulties.
- Scott
Posted by Escapee on September 18, 2016, at 11:01:00
In reply to Re: 2 Psycho / CNS stimulants you may not be aware of » Escapee, posted by SLS on September 18, 2016, at 4:40:00
> Wow! Thanks for the information.
You are very welcome!
> I was looking at pramiracetam about 15 years ago. What happened to it? Is there still interest in it? Have you ever tried it?
lol I wrote about it above, second post down, middle paragraph ;)
> Oxiracetam sounds interesting. I could use as many improvements in cognition and memory as possible. I often stop mid-sentence due to cognitive slowing, difficulties with memory retrieval, and word-finding difficulties.
Yes I would recommend you do try it. Or any of the 'racetams'. But oxi is my fave. All of the racetams act on Acetylcholine so are a good 1st choice.But I also recommend that you buy an acetylcholine precursor / choline source too. This will help avoid acetylcholine levels dropping low from the nootropic, as it will be used up much quicker than normal. Headaches are a classic sign that your nootropic is leaving you dry.
Forget choline bitartrate. It does not cross the BBB too well and it can cause a 'fishy' odour too. Not too pleasant lol.
I would recommend citicoline or alpha-GPC as your choline source. I have read more about citicoline than I have alpha-GPC and I prefer it too. Plus citicoline has been shown to raise dopamine levels. Always a good thing (unless you have schizoid tendencies).
2 other nootropics potent nootropics come to mind. Centrophenoxine & Noopept. I have tried both. Noopept's effect were difficult to pick out for me. However it is a popular choice for many.
But I do like centrophenoxine, which is kind of an acetylcholine precursor and has effects of its own. Quite similar to DMAE but more potent. Both of these latter examples kind of make up part of the acetylcholine molecule.
Which is why I also take ALCAR (acetyl-L-Carnitine) with it. ALCAR has its own unique effects and it can also donate it's 'acetyl' part to help make acetylcholine. Not the best scientific explanation, but hopefully it makes sense.
Let us know how you get on if you decide to try a racetam, or any nootropic for that matter.
Escapee
Posted by Escapee on September 18, 2016, at 11:31:01
In reply to Re: 2 Psycho / CNS stimulants you may not be aware of » Escapee, posted by SLS on September 18, 2016, at 4:40:00
Just remember that Pramiracetam is also a psycho-stim. And a potent one at that! I wouldn't take it every day.
Posted by Escapee on September 19, 2016, at 5:16:40
In reply to Re: 2 Psycho / CNS stimulants you may not be aware of » SLS, posted by Escapee on September 18, 2016, at 11:31:01
Please be aware that DMAE and possibly centrophenoxine too should not be taken by people with Bipolar I or II. It can worsen a depressive episode!
You have been warned!
Posted by SLS on September 19, 2016, at 6:15:13
In reply to Important!, posted by Escapee on September 19, 2016, at 5:16:40
> Please be aware that DMAE and possibly centrophenoxine too should not be taken by people with Bipolar I or II. It can worsen a depressive episode!
> You have been warned!That is very interesting. Thanks.
From where did you find this information?
Is there something that biologically does the "opposite" of DMAE?
- Scott
Posted by rjlockhart37 on September 20, 2016, at 0:38:13
In reply to Important!, posted by Escapee on September 19, 2016, at 5:16:40
those over the counter, weight loss pills that are mixed with dmae and yohombie, and various dirty dirty herbal stimulants are a horror story.....i took stacker 2 (energy booster, weight loss) it was so horrible, the moment it wore i was in heaven.....went straight to hell and back.....
yes stay away from over the counter stimulants that are in combination with herbal stimulants, there horrible with anxiety, and worsening and inducing psychosis
Posted by Escapee on September 23, 2016, at 15:58:21
In reply to Re: Important!, posted by rjlockhart37 on September 20, 2016, at 0:38:13
> those over the counter, weight loss pills that are mixed with dmae and yohombie, and various dirty dirty herbal stimulants are a horror story.....i took stacker 2 (energy booster, weight loss) it was so horrible, the moment it wore i was in heaven.....went straight to hell and back.....
>
> yes stay away from over the counter stimulants that are in combination with herbal stimulants, there horrible with anxiety, and worsening and inducing psychosis
>
>Um, I did not recommend anything herbal. DMAE (dimethylaminoethanol) is a part-acetylcholine precursor. It increases the formation of acetylcholine. Please do not put it in a 'bad' category just because it is included in some supplement combined with anything else, including any herbs.
It is an important nutrient (yes it is found in nature, fish is a good source) which, when taken on its own can build up into a slow acting mild stimulant. Which for some people can act as a mild antidepressant.
It DEFINITELY has no instant gratification!Anything which enhances the output of acetylcholine can feel 'activating'. It enhances memory especially short term memory recall. It creates more wakefulness, focus, awareness, clear thinking and a quickening of thoughts.
I simply warned Bipolar sufferers about taking it. It is not a 'bad' nutrient in most cases.
Escapee
Posted by Escapee on September 23, 2016, at 16:12:36
In reply to Re: Important! » Escapee, posted by SLS on September 19, 2016, at 6:15:13
> > Please be aware that DMAE and possibly centrophenoxine too should not be taken by people with Bipolar I or II. It can worsen a depressive episode!
> > You have been warned!
>
> That is very interesting. Thanks.
>
> From where did you find this information?
>
> Is there something that biologically does the "opposite" of DMAE?
>
>
> - ScottSorry for late reply. Been away Mon-Fri. Had a nice trip down south to North Devon, UK
I read that info in a book called Mental Health & Illness, co-written by Patrick Holford and Carl C. Pfeiffer. It was was a book with Mental Health starting one side of the book & Mental Illness starting on the reverse side of the book. Only book like that which I have ever seen. Difficult to find nowadays. But I did find it here:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mental-Health-Illness-Patrick-Holford/dp/1870976126As for an 'opposite' of DMAE I'm not sure. If you are talking about anticholinergics there are plenty. Amitriptyline is an example.
Posted by Escapee on September 23, 2016, at 16:25:20
In reply to Re: Important! » SLS, posted by Escapee on September 23, 2016, at 16:12:36
> > > Please be aware that DMAE and possibly centrophenoxine too should not be taken by people with Bipolar I or II. It can worsen a depressive episode!
> > > You have been warned!
> >
> > That is very interesting. Thanks.
> >
> > From where did you find this information?
> >
> > Is there something that biologically does the "opposite" of DMAE?
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Sorry for late reply. Been away Mon-Fri. Had a nice trip down south to North Devon, UK
>
> I read that info in a book called Mental Health & Illness, co-written by Patrick Holford and Carl C. Pfeiffer. It was was a book with Mental Health starting one side of the book & Mental Illness starting on the reverse side of the book. Only book like that which I have ever seen. Difficult to find nowadays. But I did find it here:
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mental-Health-Illness-Patrick-Holford/dp/1870976126
>
> As for an 'opposite' of DMAE I'm not sure. If you are talking about anticholinergics there are plenty. Amitriptyline is an example.Personally I would snap up a copy if you can! I am going to! lol
It explains a lot most people are not aware about concerning nutrition, nutrients & mental illness.
2 very interesting chapters talk about Histadelia and Histapenia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthomolecular_psychiatry
Posted by Escapee on September 24, 2016, at 19:16:43
In reply to Re: Important! » Escapee, posted by Escapee on September 23, 2016, at 16:25:20
I laugh when mainstream psychiatry bashes 'mega dosing' with nutrients. When in actual fact, when using Lithium as a mood stabilizer they are literally 'mega dosing' with a trace mineral! :)
Posted by SLS on September 24, 2016, at 19:37:39
In reply to Re: Important!, posted by Escapee on September 24, 2016, at 19:16:43
> I laugh when mainstream psychiatry bashes 'mega dosing' with nutrients. When in actual fact, when using Lithium as a mood stabilizer they are literally 'mega dosing' with a trace mineral! :)
<big smile>
- Scott
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