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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 46. Go back in thread:
Posted by Hello321 on July 30, 2016, at 22:26:39
In reply to Energy, posted by SLS on July 30, 2016, at 8:01:09
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150728110734.htm
Posted by SLS on July 31, 2016, at 7:51:27
In reply to Re: Energy, posted by Hello321 on July 30, 2016, at 22:22:58
There are LOTS of targets that neuroscience has yet to take advantage of. Is it your contention that the expression of all cases of Major Depressive Disorder are dependent upon anomalous gut microbiotic activity?
- Scott
Posted by Hello321 on July 31, 2016, at 11:30:51
In reply to Re: Energy » Hello321, posted by SLS on July 31, 2016, at 7:51:27
> There are LOTS of targets that neuroscience has yet to take advantage of. Is it your contention that the expression of all cases of Major Depressive Disorder are dependent upon anomalous gut microbiotic activity?
>
No
Posted by Tabitha on July 31, 2016, at 12:33:21
In reply to Re: Energy, posted by Hello321 on July 30, 2016, at 22:26:39
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150728110734.htm
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4662178/
>
> http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/28/magazine/can-the-bacteria-in-your-gut-explain-your-mood.html?_r=0&referer=Those articles illustrate that there were some findings in mouse and petri dish test that suggested a possible connection between the gut bacteria and depression. This led to a $1M research grant. OK, fine, but that's a long way from thinking that we'll have bacterial treatments for humans. Mouse and petri dish results often fail to transfer to humans.
The NIH article is a collection of speculations about a possible underlying mechanism for possible effects on various conditions. To me there's a strong implication that probiotics and fecal transplants are likely to work for depression and autism. As it turns out, there are practitioners and off-shore clinics offering these treatments. I think someone was trying to come up with a paper to cite in support of those treatments. Essentially it takes a grab-bag of research results, none of them human trials, many speculative, some not even clearly related to their conclusion, and jumps to a suggested clinical application. This is a very common pattern for making unproven treatments seem science-y.
Some of the statements sounded surprising, then I looked at the linked research, and it didn't seem to support what they were saying. For instance "In addition to their effects on monoamines, antidepressants exert their effects by suppressing inflammation via the potent immunoregulatory cytokine". Wow, I've never heard that antidepressants work by suppressing inflammation. So I look at the reference, and it's one study showing that prozac affects some chemical involved in inflammation. But that doesn't imply that it's the mechanism of action of prozac. (I thought the mechanism of action of SSRI's is still unknown, though it's hypothesized to be its effect on serotonin reuptake.) Also, since "inflammation" is such a buzz-word in alternative medicine, I think they're being intentionally misleading to draw in people who already think "inflammation" is a big issue in all kinds of conditions.
Then somehow there was a jump to the idea that autism can also be caused by the microbiome, since some people already believe that restrictive diets help autism. It's backwards reasoning.
Finally, the third one talks to one of the original researchers. He himself tells us it's way premature to be recommending probiotics and fecal transplants based on this work.
In short it looks like 90% hype and 10% mouse research at this point. I hope something comes of it, but it makes me angry to see preliminary research and speculation used by people selling un-proven treatments to desperate people.
Posted by Hello321 on July 31, 2016, at 13:39:08
In reply to Re: microbiome, posted by Tabitha on July 31, 2016, at 12:33:21
Learn about the functions of the gut and how it contributes to ones overall health, including the health of the brain. No need to wait years for someone else to come to a conclusion. And you dont have to pay someone for any medical treatment to improve your gut bacteria. Your gut needs nutrients just like the rest of your body. Prebiotics and probiotics. Also, the typical diet with grains, sugars, artificial everything, etc... this all ruins your gut health. And restrictive diets can be the best thing for a dysfunctional brain (keto diet)
Also, stress = inflammation. Doesnt matter if its physical or empotional stress. Ive wondered if , when an antidepressant contributes to brain functioning that results in an improved mood, if this then results in decreased inflammation.But im not going to go on and on responding to whether treating ones body right can result in a healthier brain. Research is only one click away. Everything we eat, breathe in, surround ourselves can have a positive or negative effect on our brain bealth.
Posted by Tabitha on July 31, 2016, at 17:20:28
In reply to Re: microbiome, posted by Hello321 on July 31, 2016, at 13:39:08
> Learn about the functions of the gut and how it contributes to ones overall health, including the health of the brain. No need to wait years for someone else to come to a conclusion. And you dont have to pay someone for any medical treatment [...]
> Research is only one click away.I think we have fundamentally different notions of how progress in healthcare comes about, and what constitutes research.
I will admit to having done quite a lot of personal experimentation with diet and nutritional supplements. I never noticed any health effect outside of GI issues and weight loss. It did provide a sense of focus and hope for as long as I could continue to believe in each system, at a cost of seeming like a kook to people who didn't understand the importance of basing a diet on fruit, or potatoes, or scrupulous avoidance of animal products.
After losing belief in the health benefits of these systems, I tried to continue particular diets for weight loss alone. Unfortunately I found that once I'd lost the larger faith, I could no longer adhere to the diets.
It worked out fine though. It's really been quite a relief to just eat normal food again.
Posted by Hello321 on July 31, 2016, at 18:23:01
In reply to Re: microbiome, posted by Tabitha on July 31, 2016, at 17:20:28
> > Learn about the functions of the gut and how it contributes to ones overall health, including the health of the brain. No need to wait years for someone else to come to a conclusion. And you dont have to pay someone for any medical treatment [...]
> > Research is only one click away.
>
> I think we have fundamentally different notions of how progress in healthcare comes about, and what constitutes research.
>
> I will admit to having done quite a lot of personal experimentation with diet and nutritional supplements. I never noticed any health effect outside of GI issues and weight loss. It did provide a sense of focus and hope for as long as I could continue to believe in each system, at a cost of seeming like a kook to people who didn't understand the importance of basing a diet on fruit, or potatoes, or scrupulous avoidance of animal products.
>
> After losing belief in the health benefits of these systems, I tried to continue particular diets for weight loss alone. Unfortunately I found that once I'd lost the larger faith, I could no longer adhere to the diets.
>
> It worked out fine though. It's really been quite a relief to just eat normal food again.
>
Todays leading knowledge on diseases wont be leading to improved treatments for them for roughly 15 years. A possobly revolutionary medication entering clinical trials today will be taking quite some time before you get to try it. Progress in Healthcare stems from one recognizing an opportunity to increase their wealth. Thoigh sometimes governments do fund development of treatments that a Drug Company wouldnt see much opportunity in. And there is an endless amount of research on sites like Pubmed that you can read through. Just a click away.
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 31, 2016, at 20:09:24
In reply to Re: Energy, posted by Hello321 on July 30, 2016, at 22:22:58
> Psychiatric Meds alter various functions throughout the body. This should be expected, as they alter the brain in fundamental ways. The receptors they directly or indirectly target control far more than the just our emotions. Stop tge debating, and start educating ourselves on the intricate ways these drugs are known to affect our bodies. One effect Geodon has is it blocks D2 Receptors. Learn about the consequences this can have on the body short term and longterm. Learn about the specific processes that are altered by this effect of Geodon. And when these processes are altered, what functions downstream are altered? Sure, its pretty bland info to read up on, but its there.
>
> There are different fields of medical treatment that target specific areas of the body. But the whole entire body works in harmony. Lately it has been shown that even the health of our gut can have a significant impact on our brain function. If the cause of ones mental illness is that their gut bacteria biome is in terrible shape, then a psychiatrist isnt going to be much help and could only harm the patient. But thats not how todays medical treatment works. If you seek help for mental health issues, youre told its best to see a mental health "professional" where youre offered Talk Therapy, Neurotransmitter altering Drugs, or a brain stimulation treatment like ECT. But are these professionals doing anything to help with your guts health? Nope.Hello321,
What you wrote is what is at issue here and you see it.
There are a those that agree with you and accept the generally accepted number of those killed by psychiatric drugs each year as 40,000.
This number will change when the Danish researcher's conclusions are accepted also by psychiatry. I am in the camp of 1,000,000 killed each year but I accept the 40,000 number for now as those killed by these drugs.
Here is a well-known doctor that accepts the 40,000 killed and speaks in concert with you.
I agree that good heath can help, but it has been revealed to me what depression is and it's release of the captive to it. It comes from a Jewish perspective as revealed to me that Mr. Hsiung prohibits me to post here.
But be it as it may be, if people listened to you, those that were killed by the drugs could still be alive. And worse, those here promoting mind-altering drugs that kill, might not have made the promotion and those killed by their promotion of the drugs could still be alive.
Lou
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/05/03/tips-to-avoiding-depression.aspx
Posted by Hello321 on August 1, 2016, at 7:37:42
In reply to Lou's respons-the 40,000 » Hello321, posted by Lou Pilder on July 31, 2016, at 20:09:24
Posted by Tabitha on August 1, 2016, at 14:28:55
In reply to Lou's respons-the 40,000 » Hello321, posted by Lou Pilder on July 31, 2016, at 20:09:24
> Here is a well-known doctor that accepts the 40,000 killed and speaks in concert with you.
Ah, "Dr" Mercola. For those fortunate enough to have never heard of him, there is a nice overview in wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola
It's un-ethical for a doctor to use their credentials to sell products directly to consumers in the first place, and even more so when their advice about use of the products contradicts the standard of care.
But, let's ignore that for the moment and look at his advice re antidepressants. It's easy to conclude that his criticisms are a collection of un-substantiated claims, exaggerations, half-truths, outright falsehoods, and perhaps even some truths. Yet, even if all the criticisms were true, it's a huge logic fail to jump from a long list of criticisms of antidepressants to his conclusion that a low sugar diet and "energy medicine" are effective treatments for depression. His argument boils down to this:
There are many problems with Method A
Therefore, Method B is effective (and I will sell it to you)Total nonsense. Yet I see this type of argument over and over in alternative medicine, even in technology. It must be some basic failure mode of human reasoning to buy this. Perhaps hearing someone point out all the drawbacks to the status quo treatment primes you emotionally to accept whatever is the next thing mentioned by your savior, the brave critic.
Highlights:
"these drugs don't address the cause, which has its beginnings in your emotions, and possibly in nutritional deficiencies."
really? how did you come to that conclusion?
"EFT, as opposed to drugs and supplements, hits at the root of the problemeven if you don't know exactly what that is. This is the beauty of energy medicine in general."
*head* *desk*
I have high confidence that he has similar articles on his site on many, many health conditions that follow this basic form where he criticizes standard treatments, says the conditions are really nutritional and emotional problems, and links you to his products.
Ironically, I have actually used both of the recommended "treatments" that he favors-- the Sugar Blues diet, and the Emotional Freedom Technique. Neither had any noticeable effect on my depression.
Posted by Hello321 on August 1, 2016, at 14:58:11
In reply to Re: mercola, posted by Tabitha on August 1, 2016, at 14:28:55
>
> I have high confidence that he has similar articles on his site on many, many health conditions that follow this basic form where he criticizes standard treatments, says the conditions are really nutritional and emotional problems, and links you to his products.
>
> Ironically, I have actually used both of the recommended "treatments" that he favors-- the Sugar Blues diet, and the Emotional Freedom Technique. Neither had any noticeable effect on my depression.I never notice any advertisements trying to get folks to buy products from Mercola. But i do see a lot of tips on how to improve your wellbeing.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/12/31/antidepressants-depression.aspx
I looked over this article and didnt notice any product advertisements.
None on here, either. Maybe im just missing them.
A very low sugar/carbohydrate diet has been the best thing ive tried for my condition lately. I dont know if you restricted carbs also, but its part of the deal if youre going to restrict sugar. Fiber is coumted as a carb for what ever reason, but your body doesnt absorb it, so it doesnt count. But every other carbohydrate is turned into sugar inside the body. Whether its a carb from whole grain bread, or a carb from white bread.
Ive been doing the Ketogenic Diet (very low carb, high fat) and it has definitely helped with my mood. But it does take time and dedocation to figure out what you can and cant eat, and sticking to it. The whole odea is to get ypur body and brain to start running on fats instead of carbohydrates.
Posted by linkadge on August 1, 2016, at 15:49:24
In reply to Lou's respons-the 40,000 » Hello321, posted by Lou Pilder on July 31, 2016, at 20:09:24
Lou,
People are killed by a lot of things. Aspirin kills a lot of people. It also saves a lot of people. What is your point?
In one succinct paragraph, can you explain your key point here?
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on August 1, 2016, at 15:56:37
In reply to Re: mercola, posted by Hello321 on August 1, 2016, at 14:58:11
Mercola has been around peddling his charlatanry for a long time. I'm glad that someone had the insight and energy to expose him in a civil manner.
What is your motivation for rejecting psychopharmacology?
Why did you choose Mercola in particular?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 1, 2016, at 16:06:39
In reply to Re: What is your point? » Lou Pilder, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2016, at 15:49:24
> Lou,
> In one succinct paragraph, can you explain your key point here?
That's a great request. Mr. Pilder is very capable of expository writing that is coherent and readable. He demonstrates this on the Social board. The question becomes, why does he not do this on the Medication board? I will be very surprised if your request is acceded to.
- Scott
Posted by Hello321 on August 1, 2016, at 16:53:23
In reply to Re: mercola » Hello321, posted by SLS on August 1, 2016, at 15:56:37
> Mercola has been around peddling his charlatanry for a long time. I'm glad that someone had the insight and energy to expose him in a civil manner.
>
> What is your motivation for rejecting psychopharmacology?
>
> Why did you choose Mercola in particular?
>
>Scott, ive posted on this board a couple of years now and every few months you act thoroughly surprised about any negative view i have of psychiatry or its treatments.
But i will sum it up for you. I suppose my view of treatments for any condition can be described as libertarian, as long as informed consent is given. Id even love to see that we have access to many treatments that have failed clinical trials, but had helped even 5 percent of the participants. As long as we aere made aware of other treatments as well, natural or chemical.
Just because ive realized the benefits of natural healing, does not mean im agai st someone having a psychiatric treatment for an optio, with informed consent. As ive posted on many times, ive experienced severe longterm effects from psychiatric medications that i really had no idea about when i started on them. Ive gone into details on this many times.
What specific things written about on Mercola do you object to? Any of it proven 100 percent false? Such as things that arent up for debate. You might see some things you find a bit sketchy, but you also can say the promotion that a chemical imbalance is the cause of psychiatric disorders. As well as many other things about psychiatric treatment.
Posted by SLS on August 1, 2016, at 19:01:35
In reply to Re: mercola, posted by Hello321 on August 1, 2016, at 16:53:23
> > Mercola has been around peddling his charlatanry for a long time. I'm glad that someone had the insight and energy to expose him in a civil manner.
> >
> > What is your motivation for rejecting psychopharmacology?
> >
> > Why did you choose Mercola in particular?> Scott, ive posted on this board a couple of years now and every few months you act thoroughly surprised about any negative view i have of psychiatry or its treatments.
What makes you think that I am surprised? Well, I guess I am, but growing less so. We might have something in common, though. I think each of us wants to help people and prevent harm.
> But i will sum it up for you. I suppose my view of treatments for any condition can be described as libertarian
What is this? Politics? Regarding treatments for illness, I am all for novel treatments, whether it be synthesized in a lab or extracted from a botanical. It might be reasonable, though, that science should be applied to drugs and devices to demonstrate efficacy and establish a safety profile.
> Just because ive realized the benefits of natural healing,
Okay. What is it that needed healing? What natural healing has brought you to remission? Is it something you learned from Mercola?
> What specific things written about on Mercola do you object to?
Every third word.
Seriously, I think Tabitha did a great job of giving some examples. They are good enough for me, anyway.
> Any of it proven 100 percent false?
It is first the responsibility of someone to prove something as being true.
> Such as things that arent up for debate.
Everything is always up for examination and reexamination
> You might see some things you find a bit sketchy
Very.
> but you also can say the promotion that a chemical imbalance is the cause of psychiatric disorders.
I don't even know what a chemical imbalance is. This is a primitive conceptualization that has served well to educate the public in the 1980s and 1990s. Few, if any, neuroscientists adhere to such a simple explanation.
Chemical imbalance -> not a sufficient model
Biological dysfunction -> supported by scientific evidenceI am sorry if you have been hurt by doctors and their drugs. I am sure you have already described your experiences in detail. You must be tired of repeating yourself. I hope you have gained the health that you formerly lacked.
- Scott
Posted by Tabitha on August 1, 2016, at 19:31:01
In reply to Re: mercola, posted by Hello321 on August 1, 2016, at 14:58:11
>
> I never notice any advertisements trying to get folks to buy products from Mercola.I see three links to his shop on every article. The "Shop" tab and the "Shop for Health Products" link at the top, and a picture ad saying "Celebrating our 19th Anniversary, take 10% off sitewide plus receive a FREE organic cotton bag with purchase" at the side. I also get two invitations to add myself to his mailing list-- one at the top of each page, and one that appears frequently as a pop-up. When I click over to his shop, it's a full-fledged store with hundreds of items for sale. It's very clearly a commercial site.
I also notice a link labeled "why am I seeing these ads?" which links to an article and video in which he tries to justify his selling of products. (No doubt he is aware of the ethical problems with physicians selling health products, which is why he feels a need to justify it.)
There were also a couple of Amazon affiliate links in the first article I read. I don't have a problem with sites (such as this one) using affiliate links for income, particularly when they have a disclaimer about it, but here we have someone recommending popular books as health interventions in place of standard medical care, using the weight of his credential as a doctor. That is a whole different thing and IMO highly unethical for a physician.
Besides the Amazon links, the article included a link to another site promoting EFT. It's a commercial site offering some free content mixed in with sales of books, DVDs, consultations with practitioners, and practitioner training. Most likely he's financially affiliated with any other commercial sites he links.
Posted by Tabitha on August 1, 2016, at 20:02:04
In reply to Re: mercola » Hello321, posted by SLS on August 1, 2016, at 19:01:35
> I am all for novel treatments, whether it be synthesized in a lab or extracted from a botanical. It might be reasonable, though, that science should be applied to drugs and devices to demonstrate efficacy and establish a safety profile.
This. Very well put.
> I don't even know what a chemical imbalance is. This is a primitive conceptualization that has served well to educate the public in the 1980s and 1990s. Few, if any, neuroscientists adhere to such a simple explanation.
>
> Chemical imbalance -> not a sufficient model
> Biological dysfunction -> supported by scientific evidence
>Chemical imbalance = popular straw man argument against anti-depressants
Honestly I think I could come up with a better anti-anti-depressant argument than the chemical imbalance spiel. All I would have to do is describe the side effects in vivid detail and leave out the part where the soul-sucking misery finally stops.
Posted by Hello321 on August 2, 2016, at 7:00:34
In reply to Re: mercola » SLS, posted by Tabitha on August 1, 2016, at 20:02:04
> > I am all for novel treatments, whether it be synthesized in a lab or extracted from a botanical. It might be reasonable, though, that science should be applied to drugs and devices to demonstrate efficacy and establish a safety profile.
>
>
>I see. Well, maybe the experts working for organizations like the FDA will one day point everyone on psychobabble in the right direction. Until then, good luck!
Posted by Hello321 on August 2, 2016, at 7:05:24
In reply to Re: mercola, posted by Hello321 on August 2, 2016, at 7:00:34
Posted by Christ_empowered on August 2, 2016, at 7:50:30
In reply to Re: mercola, posted by Hello321 on August 2, 2016, at 7:05:24
I kinda like Mercola. He interviews people from the alt health field, and that's cool. I don't buy his products, but I do think bringing in different ideas about healthcare to the masses is probably a good thing.
Posted by SLS on August 2, 2016, at 7:56:25
In reply to Re: mercola, posted by Hello321 on August 2, 2016, at 7:00:34
> > > I am all for novel treatments, whether it be synthesized in a lab or extracted from a botanical. It might be reasonable, though, that science should be applied to drugs and devices to demonstrate efficacy and establish a safety profile.
> I see. Well, maybe the experts working for organizations like the FDA will one day point everyone on psychobabble in the right direction. Until then, good luck!I don't need luck. I need science.
- Scott
Posted by Hello321 on August 2, 2016, at 8:50:26
In reply to Re: mercola, posted by Christ_empowered on August 2, 2016, at 7:50:30
> I kinda like Mercola. He interviews people from the alt health field, and that's cool. I don't buy his products, but I do think bringing in different ideas about healthcare to the masses is probably a good thing.
My thoughts exactly. We need to be looking at alk of the options. There is science behind much of what is written about this on his site.
Posted by Tabitha on August 2, 2016, at 11:33:34
In reply to Re: mercola, posted by Christ_empowered on August 2, 2016, at 7:50:30
> I kinda like Mercola. He interviews people from the alt health field, and that's cool. I don't buy his products, but I do think bringing in different ideas about healthcare to the masses is probably a good thing.
It sounds good, if you think that effective treatments are sort of evenly distributed between conventional medicine and alternative medicine. Or even if you think there might be a few good treatments in alternative medicine that haven't yet been embraced by conventional medicine. However, controlled testing on alternative methods consistently shows their effectiveness is not better than placebo. The NCCIH has spent $1.3 billion on alternative medicine research since 2000, and has not produced a single successful intervention that is better than placebo or conventional care. Examples of their research results:
- Tai Chi works as well as physical therapy
- CBT and mindfulness are better for back pain than no intervention (as is any placebo)
- acupuncture provides benefits, whether or not you stick needles into acupuncture points, stick needles into arbitrary points, or just pretend to be sticking needles into the skin. (The reasonable conclusion is that all three methods "work" through placebo effect.)
- many reports describing the prevalence of use of alternative medicine, without speaking to its effectiveness at all.Wouldn't you expect some more impressive results after $1.3 billion?
Worse, when there are numerous studies showing that treatments don't work (e.g. homeopathy, acupuncture), alternative medicine practitioners don't abandon the techniques. Contrast to medicine, which, despite all its flaws, does pick up new treatments and drop ineffective ones in response to new research.
I think if people understood the following, alternative medicine would lose most of its appeal:
- it's actually very difficult to come up with effective treatments. most ideas that seem initially plausible never translate into successful treatments
- things often seem to work due to common cognitive biases. controlled testing is necessary, and results often will contradict human instincts
Posted by Hello321 on August 2, 2016, at 14:19:52
In reply to Re: different ideas about healthcare, posted by Tabitha on August 2, 2016, at 11:33:34
I don't know about some of the treatments you pointed out. But I know exercise and a ketogenic diet has helped my mood more than any psychiatric treatment has. There are different causes behind each person's illness, and different treatments can be helpful. If you run out of options with psychiatric treatments, or just want to avoid them, then there may be a helpful alternative treatment.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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