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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by SLS on October 15, 2013, at 20:17:26
Were you a ECT horror story?
- Scott
Posted by rjlockhart37 on October 15, 2013, at 22:06:26
In reply to Were you a ECT horror story?, posted by SLS on October 15, 2013, at 20:17:26
no, but i've heard the horror stories of the electric shock blunting regular thinking, there was a poster that he could not rerember his memories, or feel the pain or feeling of them, it can severely alter perception after with some people, and others it doesnt....
i think the main thing with shock, is it causes memory loss after the treatment, and theirs many other cases of horrors done to the brain. It still is effective.....but i would rather not do it unless i completly didnt respond to any of my meds....
Posted by SLS on October 15, 2013, at 22:11:10
In reply to Re: Were you a ECT horror story?, posted by rjlockhart37 on October 15, 2013, at 22:06:26
Hi RJL.
Thanks for your input. You are always so kind.
> no, but i've heard the horror stories
I was hoping to get responses only from those people who actually experienced adverse effects with ECT.
- Scott
Posted by Christ_empowered on October 16, 2013, at 8:20:16
In reply to Re: Were you a ECT horror story? » rjlockhart37, posted by SLS on October 15, 2013, at 22:11:10
...at 20, I had a massive benzo OD. I turned aggressive (I'm guessing "paradoxical disinhibition") and a mental hospital let me have it with hardcore ECT.
I was left dead eyed for a couple years, with tics and severe memory loss. I didn't dream when I went to sleep.
At 23, more ECT (again, involuntary--notice a pattern?). I barely even had thoughts, much less dreams, memories, emotions. All I can think of is that God must really love me, because now, at 29, I've recovered. Orthomolecular seems to have played a role in my recovery (Dr.Abram Hoffer used B3 with ECT and after ECT to help with memory issues).
I don't think ECT should be done very often, certainly not involuntarily, and never by court order as happens in some states (usually to poor people and minorities).
Posted by sigismund on October 16, 2013, at 18:06:25
In reply to yes..., posted by Christ_empowered on October 16, 2013, at 8:20:16
A psych was telling me about ECT in the 70s in a psych unit.
Full and careful history taken, then everyone (all women) given ECT.
When they were allowed out and went home the husbands were interviewed after the wives.
Always three questions.
Is she OK? Could she perform her household duties? Did you have sex?He said that they said it was the gold standard but he never saw anyone helped by it, although they complained less.
Posted by Zyprexa on October 17, 2013, at 1:31:53
In reply to Re: yes..., posted by sigismund on October 16, 2013, at 18:06:25
They ruined my memory for at least the last 15 years. People said I was not the same when I got out of the hospital. Told me not to thought block. How do I do that when I can't even form a memory. Remember waking up after an ECT and I thought I had just been born, or was on an alien planet. I would look around the room and not know what anything was. I had a lot of very demented thoughts during the hospital stay. I think ECTs add to mental illness. The whole thing was like one very weird dream. Obviously I don't remember much of my stay in hospital. I still can't remember much for the first 5 years before ECT. It was like my whole life was restarted after ECT, except that now I'm dumb. I was never asked about whether I wanted ECT or even what they were going to do. Infact I didn't even know what ECT was till I got out of hospital and got on PB! I think they used ECTs to torture me, because I would not take the meds. Well I've learned my lesson now and don't miss a dose!
I don't recomend ECT. Its taken me a lot of time to slowly piece my life back together. Mostly with the help of freinds and me getting memory back, very slowly. I think I'm half retarted now from the ECTs.
Posted by Zyprexa on October 17, 2013, at 1:46:51
In reply to Yes, posted by Zyprexa on October 17, 2013, at 1:31:53
I forgot to mention the microchip they put in my brain. I literaly thought they were programing my brain in hospital. And pressing the reset button!
Posted by johnLA on October 17, 2013, at 14:53:10
In reply to Were you a ECT horror story?, posted by SLS on October 15, 2013, at 20:17:26
hi scott-
not sure your motivation for this thread? curious about that...
i had 12 unilateral ect's 3+ years ago. i don't consider myself a ect 'horror story.'
believe it, or not, i was only a few months in to my 1st ever serious depression. looking back i am still surprised that it was offered so very early. though, in defense of the doctors, i was claiming i was suicidal and looking-up plans.
if you want more info about me 'getting talked into' ect just let me know. looking back i can say i was having severe reactions to psych meds. never took them before in my life. the akathisia i realize now was literally making me lose my mind. nobody seemed to offer any info about that at the time.
i was at ucla. one of the top psychiatric hospitals in the world. i would have done anything for the 'pain' to stop. a doctor came to me and suggested ect. my new pdoc also suggested it. i was in very very bad shape.
i knew nothing of psychiatry at this point.
i said yes.
a miracle happened on the first treatment; no depression. the ruminations were still there, but i realized wtf i am thinking about killing myself? this lasted about a day. with each treatment i would get about 1 or 2 days of depression relief.
i was scheduled for an 'index' of 12 and then to go on to maintenance treatments. i decided to stop at 12. i had had enough.
do i have lingering memory problems? no. did it work on my depression? yes and no. am i sorry i tried it? hmmmm...still trying to digest that one. this whole depression deal has been a nightmare. i was very high functioning for 47 years until i crashed.
i have mentioned this before in other threads; when i was getting my ect i was very well taken care off. the staff and doctors at ucla are top-notch. many 'vips' like kitty dukakis (when her husband is teaching during the winter quarter at ucla) and carrie fisher do their maintenance treatments with the same doc/staff. there are more well-known people as well.
in the end i need to realize it was just another failed attempt to beat my depression. i am working on that. it is difficult to accept at times that i had ect due to the stigma. at the same time it takes a pretty courageous person to 'go for it.' i'm hoping as i get better that i will think less of it. and, if i do, i will realize that i was very unwell and was willing to try a very scary thing to get better. i love life. that's why i did it.
so, again, i consider myself not to be a ect horror story.
i am still curious why you started this thread scott. ;)
john
Posted by doxogenic boy on October 18, 2013, at 9:27:10
In reply to Were you a ECT horror story?, posted by SLS on October 15, 2013, at 20:17:26
> Were you a ECT horror story?
Yes. My memory was destroyed when I got ECT in 2004. Before that I had a photographic memory, and I could tell others about things they had said, that they had forgotten. After ECT, other people tell _me_ about things I have said, that I have forgotten.
The antidepressant effect of the ECT treatments was small og short-lived. The despair caused by the loss of my good memory made my suicidal thoughts and depression even more treatment resistant, and I was depressed for five years after the ECT in October 2004. Only lots of medication could take away the desperation that I felt because my memory was destroyed.
I still get reminded often about my bad post-ECT-memory, but I have resigned myself with the situation. My hope is that it one day comes a drug that can give me my good memory back.
- doxogenic
Posted by SLS on October 18, 2013, at 10:00:27
In reply to Re: Were you a ECT horror story?, posted by johnLA on October 17, 2013, at 14:53:10
> hi scott-
Hi.
Thanks for your reply.
> not sure your motivation for this thread? curious about that...
No one has ever devoted a thread to this subject. I meant it to be for everyone's benefit, not just my own. I often hear people speak of others having horror stories to tell, but I would rather not rely on such hearsay. I have heard horror stories too, but not told by anyone I know personally. I would like to get a better idea as to how often horror stories result from ECT.
I had bilateral ECT. By the end of treatments, I felt very weird, although my depression remained unimproved. I experienced cognitive and memory impairments that lasted for about a month, and thereafter dissipated. I do not consider myself to be a horror story.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on October 18, 2013, at 10:14:24
In reply to Re: Were you a ECT horror story? » SLS, posted by doxogenic boy on October 18, 2013, at 9:27:10
> > Were you a ECT horror story?
>
> Yes. My memory was destroyed when I got ECT in 2004. Before that I had a photographic memory, and I could tell others about things they had said, that they had forgotten. After ECT, other people tell _me_ about things I have said, that I have forgotten.I believe you. I am truly sorry that you were so terribly affected by ECT. I can empathize with you. Although not a product of ECT, my memory is poor. It is a manifestation of having such a severe and refractory bipolar depression. I, too, try to resign myself to being stuck with the horrible cognitive and memory impairments that may be irreversible.
> My hope is that it one day comes a drug that can give me my good memory back.
Are you currently depressed? If you are, you might experience an unexpected improvement in your memory when your depression resolves. Otherwise, you can begin to look into Alzheimer drugs. Memantine and acetylcholine cholinesterase inhibitors are currently available. I once tried Aricept. No magic. But then, again, my impairments were not generated by ECT.
The older one gets, the more depression manifests as dementia.
- Scott
Posted by doxogenic boy on October 18, 2013, at 10:34:40
In reply to Re: Were you a ECT horror story? » doxogenic boy, posted by SLS on October 18, 2013, at 10:14:24
> > My hope is that it one day comes a drug that can give me my good memory back.
>
> Are you currently depressed?No, I am not depressed now. My medication (see my signature) has worked for about four years now. (I have used the same meds for four years except for the agomelatine, which I have used since March 2010).
My good memory still didn't come back.
>If you are, you might experience an unexpected improvement in your memory when your depression resolves. Otherwise, you can begin to look into Alzheimer drugs. Memantine and acetylcholine cholinesterase inhibitors are currently available. I once tried Aricept. No magic. But then, again, my impairments were not generated by ECT.
Thank you for your concern.
Can Alzheimer drugs work against ECT-induced memory problems?> The older one gets, the more depression manifests as dementia.
Isn't it diffucult to distinguish depression from dementia in old people?
- doxogenic
Posted by alexandra_k on October 18, 2013, at 14:25:54
In reply to Re: Were you a ECT horror story? » SLS, posted by doxogenic boy on October 18, 2013, at 10:34:40
or is it that the memory loss of dementia (and perhaps disorientation to time and place) prevents depression? thinking about the memory loss aspect of ect perhaps being the mechanism of action rather than a side-effect. sort of like how the massive sedation of the old generation anti-psychotics seemed to be a mechanism of action to reduce violence and aggression and increase (somewhat sleepy) compliance on the ward.
Posted by doxogenic boy on October 18, 2013, at 14:50:09
In reply to Re: Were you a ECT horror story?, posted by alexandra_k on October 18, 2013, at 14:25:54
> thinking about the memory loss aspect of ect perhaps being the mechanism of action rather than a side-effect.
Yes, I think this the case. Depressed people often think about the same things over and over again. When ECT deletes the repeating thoughts, the depression is gone. The problem is that it deletes much more than just the worries. I have got both retrograde and anterograde amnesia because of the ECT.
- doxogenic
Posted by alexandra_k on October 18, 2013, at 15:49:43
In reply to Re: Were you a ECT horror story? » alexandra_k, posted by doxogenic boy on October 18, 2013, at 14:50:09
> > thinking about the memory loss aspect of ect perhaps being the mechanism of action rather than a side-effect.
> Yes, I think this the case. Depressed people often think about the same things over and over again. When ECT deletes the repeating thoughts, the depression is gone. The problem is that it deletes much more than just the worries. I have got both retrograde and anterograde amnesia because of the ECT.ONE theory of depression is that the repeating thoughts is a causal factor in depression. Another idea (that is consistent, but somewhat different) is the idea that ... Pretty sure I read 'three months' from somewhere (but I don't know from where so I'm certainly not claiming it as authorative) ... If you can interrupt memory for around 3 months prior to the treatment ... That might be the effective thing. Who knows why. Maybe because the amnesia goes back far enough to prevent the start of a downward spiral. I'm not sure.
I have trouble remembering what happened with me after the treatment, too. Whatever it was... I can't imagine it would have been particularly good. I'm sure I was up to my eyeballs on all kinds of psych meds for the 3 months prior and after, too...
One idea is that the success of the treatment is directly proportional to the extent of the memory loss.
I'm not sure whether it is true.
Posted by johnLA on October 18, 2013, at 15:52:10
In reply to Re: Were you a ECT horror story? » johnLA, posted by SLS on October 18, 2013, at 10:00:27
got it scott.
thanks.
just a thought, idea, maybe even a general suggestion...
disclaimer first! ;) i guess i got/get defensive about ect 'horror stories.' i saw people who got them regularly and function at a very high level. and, i truly believe i suffered no long-term effects. it just didn't work for me as i said.
i am also not promoting ect.
psychobabble is an interesting place to say the least. i look at old posts from years ago and the place seemed so much more hopeful then. now, it has changed. i don't need to express my multiple reasons why i think it has. this has been discussed at length by others to the nth degree already.
i guess my point with your thread is it seems pessimistic before a person has a chance to even reply. again; i am probably extra-sensitive due to your wording of your initial post.
psychobabble can be very toxic. it is becoming in some ways a very triggering and negative place. not one of hope, education, and experiences; both good and bad.
some of us our fighting for our lives. i could only imagine a newly diagnosed person coming here, or a person who has been recommended ect for example coming across this thread. i feel it is a prejudicial anti-ect thread before it even starts. i feel this is bad.
i am not discounting any of the people who responded that they had a 'ect horror story.' still, i am not surprised of the responses so far at this point in psychobabble's history.
i am not attacking you. i feel that maybe if you had asked 'what was your ect experience?' it may have (possibly) been a fairer question to ask.
i'll get off my soapbox.
thanks scott for letting me rant.
i hope you have as good as a weekend as you can.
john
Posted by alexandra_k on October 18, 2013, at 15:56:05
In reply to Re: Were you a ECT horror story?, posted by alexandra_k on October 18, 2013, at 15:49:43
if it were true...
if you basically erased memory for 6 months of your life around the treatment...
would it be a good treatment? would it be worth it? or would it be horrific?
i guess it partly depends on how effective the treatment was. but if the effectiveness just is one and the same thing as the memory loss...
Posted by doxogenic boy on October 18, 2013, at 18:48:12
In reply to Re: Were you a ECT horror story?, posted by alexandra_k on October 18, 2013, at 15:49:43
> One idea is that the success of the treatment is directly proportional to the extent of the memory loss.
I have heard of this theory too, and I think it is correct. I got 8 or 9 shocks, and my memory loss would most likely have been even worse if I had continued with more shocks. This would probably have resulted in an increased antidepressant effect, but it would not have been worth it.
- doxogenic
Posted by doxogenic boy on October 18, 2013, at 19:03:36
In reply to Re: Were you a ECT horror story?, posted by alexandra_k on October 18, 2013, at 15:56:05
> if it were true...
>
> if you basically erased memory for 6 months of your life around the treatment...
>
> would it be a good treatment? would it be worth it? or would it be horrific?In my experience, a treatment with a short-lived antidepressant effect (which ECT mostly is), is not worth the loss of any memory. I have lost the best part of myself because of the ECT, and I will not ever be able to function in a job, because my working memory is destroyed, and my learning ability is destroyed too.
I have to take a lot of meds the rest of my life to avoid the despair that ECT side effects has caused.
- doxogenic
Posted by baseball55 on October 18, 2013, at 19:30:57
In reply to Re: Were you a ECT horror story? » johnLA, posted by SLS on October 18, 2013, at 10:00:27
> I had bilateral ECT. By the end of treatments, I felt very weird, although my depression remained unimproved. I experienced cognitive and memory impairments that lasted for about a month, and thereafter dissipated. I do not consider myself to be a horror story.
>
>
> - ScottI had the same experience as you Scott. Not a horror story, but not a success story either. No improvement in depression after 3 weeks of bilateral ECT. For about six -eight weeks afterward, I found I didn't remember neighbors names, street names. I had virtually no memory of the ECT period itself, though I did keep a journal in the hospital, so I knew things because I had written them down contemporaneously. For example, my husband came in and my daughter called in on conference call for a family meeting, but I do not recall this at all. I just know that it happened because I wrote that it happened in my journal.
ECT was a bust for me, but not a horror story.
Posted by baseball55 on October 18, 2013, at 19:39:53
In reply to Re: Were you a ECT horror story?, posted by johnLA on October 18, 2013, at 15:52:10
I understand what you are saying, John. Ect is very helpful for some people. Kitty Dukakis wrote a book a few years back called Shocked in which she related her own positive experience with ECT. She was a neighbor of mine, so I know she still does maintenance treatments. Apparently she lost some memory, but feels it was well worth it.
Nobody understands the mechanism of action of ECT. It's success rate is higher than anti-depressants.
On a good note, I have remained mostly stable and able to fight off severe depressive episodes for the past two years -- partly due to parnate and lamictal and partly due to intensive work on DBT with a trained DBT therapist. I can not speak highly enough about DBT, though that is a matter for a different thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2013, at 1:03:52
In reply to Re: Were you a ECT horror story? » johnLA, posted by baseball55 on October 18, 2013, at 19:39:53
nobody knows the mechanism of action for pretty much anything... even the neurotransmitter theories of mental disorders are in their infant stages...
the current state of our knowledge in the cognitive neurosciences of memory is... a big mess. conceptually. it is obvious that there isn't any one such thing as memory... because people can have memories for certain kinds of things messed up while their memories for certain other kinds of things remains intact... people can have problems storing new information but are fine otherwise. there are all kinds of things... it is even fairly tricky to sort memory problems from perceptual problems from storage problems to retrieval problems...
so it really is open just what kinds of messed up memory ECT produces in some or all people.
ongoing problems are harder... ongoing problems with working memory, for example. or memories for stuff formed well before the 6 month window (e.g., problems with childhood memories or whatever). directory issue problems (i have gone through a period wondering whether my current mind is currently f*ck*d up in a way it wouldn't be if i hadn't have had the ECT).
maybe that is one of the worst things about it? one always wonders... whenever anything funky happens with memory... was it the ECT? or was i always like that?
i... can't remember.
ahaha.
Posted by Bob on October 22, 2013, at 21:41:15
In reply to Were you a ECT horror story?, posted by SLS on October 15, 2013, at 20:17:26
> Were you a ECT horror story?
>
>
> - Scott
Although it didn't seem to be the case with the first few sessions, I eventually came to experience ECT has a highly negative experience. However, many treatments I have tried could be classified similarly.Why do you ask this question?
Bob
Posted by SLS on October 23, 2013, at 5:46:11
In reply to Re: Were you a ECT horror story? » SLS, posted by Bob on October 22, 2013, at 21:41:15
> > Were you a ECT horror story?
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
>
> Although it didn't seem to be the case with the first few sessions, I eventually came to experience ECT has a highly negative experience. However, many treatments I have tried could be classified similarly.
>
> Why do you ask this question?
>
> Bob
I have encountered hearsay that ECT has ruined lives and stolen years worth of memory, in addition to producing lingering memory impairments. However, I have not heard these things directly from the person affected. Some people recount stories of having lost years worth of their education such that they had to repeat their courses. I would like to know how many people in the Psycho-Babble community can corroborate these stories.
- Scott
Posted by doxogenic boy on October 24, 2013, at 7:58:52
In reply to Re: Were you a ECT horror story? » Bob, posted by SLS on October 23, 2013, at 5:46:11
> I have encountered hearsay that ECT has ruined lives and stolen years worth of memory, in addition to producing lingering memory impairments. However, I have not heard these things directly from the person affected. Some people recount stories of having lost years worth of their education such that they had to repeat their courses.
---
I had a very good understanding of German grammar. After the ECT, most of it is gone. I am still able to read German, but not write. And it is most likely useless to go back to studying German (or other subjects) because ECT has destroyed my working memory.Thank you for taking up this subject.
- doxogenic
This is the end of the thread.
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