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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by gilmourr on November 30, 2012, at 12:26:55
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency » gilmourr, posted by Phillipa on November 30, 2012, at 8:54:14
It's not really different WITH nardil, because your levels should just be normal again.
Nardil depletes B6 levels. This is because EITHER nardil or it's metabolite phenylethylidenehydrazine lower B6 levels. B6 is super important for the meds to work. They actually shouldn't work technically at B6 deficient levels since it's needed for neurotransmitter synthesis. Here's one passage on pubmed...
"Phenelzine reduces plasma vitamin B6.
Plasma levels of the active form of vitamin B6 (pyridoxal phosphate) in 19 patients taking phenelzine were found to be reduced on the average to approximately 54% of the value in a control group."
another...
Drug-pyridoxal phosphate interactions.
In this review it has been pointed out that vitamin B6 and its vitamers can be involved in many interactions with a number of drugs, as well as with the actions of various endocrines and neurotransmitters. Nutritional deficiencies, especially of vitamins and proteins, can affect the manner in which drugs undergo biotransformation, and thereby may also modify the therapeutic efficacy of certain drugs. The differences between nutritional vitamin B6 deficiency and the hereditary disorder producing pyridoxine dependency are discussed. In addition to a pyridoxine deficiency being able to adversely affect drug actions, the improper supplementation with vitamin B6 can in some instances also adversely affect drug efficacy
THIS may be why a lot of people say Nardil POOPS out. Maybe their vitamin levels were diminished GREATLY by taking it, so it works initially and when you have super low levels of B6 you can't get the benefits.
BTW right now I feel super tired, waking up at 1 pm (when nardil works I wake up at 7 am everyday), my motivation is shot, I feel brain dead really and confused, I'm irritable as fack and I'm having shivers that remind me of withdrawal 24/7.Somethings wrong, Phillipa do you know who the Nardil experts are on the board? I seriously believe that we have a better chance at solving this than doctors as it's just way too specific.
And I don't have a psych till january 15th :((Also folate and B12 are required as well for NT synthesis). I really should have all levels checked but B6 is the more obvious one since Nardil/hydrazines diminish it greatly with each dose.
Posted by ChicagoKat on November 30, 2012, at 13:13:51
In reply to Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency, posted by gilmourr on November 29, 2012, at 21:39:37
Hi gilmourr,
You are completely right that it is wise to supplement Nardil with B6. But one must be careful to get the 'pyridoxine' form. Be sure to read the label carefully.
As far as it upsetting your stomach, have you tried taking it with food? That might help. Another solution might be to get some Pepcid (famotidine) or even a proton pump inhibitor like Prevacid (lansoprazole) Both these drugs are available OTC. But I would recommend not using them both together, that would be overkill, and your stomach does need SOME acid lol
Good luck in your search for a solution.
Kat
Posted by gilmourr on November 30, 2012, at 13:27:46
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency » gilmourr, posted by ChicagoKat on November 30, 2012, at 13:13:51
Thanks Kat, and yeah there's no way I can take the tablet I was taking. Maybe I can take another tablet, but I really doubt it. And yep they're all pyridoxine.
I purchased the sublingual vitamin off the internet that way it bypasses my stomach :)
And if my B6 test comes back positive for a deficiency, I'll get a B6 shot.
How's your meds going atm? I think you came off Nardil if I remember (my memory is crap) and went to parnate? It's so disappointing when Nardil started doing this to me. I'm really not sure if I'll be able to get it to work again. Right now, this is the ONLY drug keeping me out of major depression so I'm very worried that if it HAS stopped functioning that in 9-10 days I'll be really messed up. And I have no go to meds that will alleviate the major depression if it does come back :(
Posted by ChicagoKat on November 30, 2012, at 15:24:58
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency, posted by gilmourr on November 30, 2012, at 13:27:46
Hi gilmourr,
So does taking the B6 sublingually keep your stomach from getting upset then? No matter what, it seems you have a good plan lined up for the B6
I would feel bad for you if Nardil pooped out on you. Cos I know what it feels like since it pooped out on me. Made me want to cry (more than usual lol) I really hope it continues to work for you.
So yep, off the Nardil. We were going to try Parnate, but unbelievably it was not covered my United NON-Health Care Insurance. And even more suprising, it cost 130 bucks a month if I paid out of pocket! I was sure such an old drug would be dirt cheap. So no Parnate. But I think it's just as well, b/c I've heard Parnate is so activating, and I have a bad problem with anxiety.
So I've been on Ritalin, the only thing that gives me an hour here and there where I feel good. On Tuesday me and pdoc decided to try Focalin, and I like it...smoother, lasts longer before crashing, and when it does crash it's not as intense. Weird for me, when I crash on a stim I get bad anxiety.But, as usual, I think I jumped the gun in thinking that Focalin is a miracle drug for me. It def is better than regular Ritalin, but I am now developing shortness of breath when on it. Which is no fun at all. WHY, OH WHY, CAN A DRUG NOT JUST WORK WITHOUT MAKING YOU SICK IN SOME OTHER RESPECT?? Sorry for the shouting, but I just needed to vent. Thanks for reading. I just get so tired of how one drug helps you, but there are side effects, so you have to take another drug for that, then the additional drug causes even more, other side effects, so yyou need yet another drug to cover that....and so on and so on...sometimes it's unbearable. How I miss my early days in this 'game'. The days when I just took a Proac in the morning and I was just fine. Sigh, I can dream. But those days are long gone and certainly will never come back.
Thanks for reading if you made it this far. I really needed to vent. I wish you much luck gilmourr, and will keep fingers crossed that the Nardil does NOT poop out on you.
Kat
Posted by bleauberry on November 30, 2012, at 17:27:30
In reply to Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency, posted by gilmourr on November 29, 2012, at 21:39:37
Try frequent dosing throughout the day. Take the amount that you think you need for the day, but spread it out in multiple doses. Take it with food toward the end of the meal. The kind of B6 also makes a difference. A 5:1 mix of the regular form and the bioactive form covers a lot more bases than either alone. Pyridoxine and Pyridoxal-5'-Phosphate. Sometimes in disease our bodies don't convert or metabolize our B6 correctly. The P5P B6 helps to bypass that by giving the active form of B6.
If small frequent doses with food still give you nausea problems, next step would be to take it with ginger root tea or capsules. Ginger is rapidly helpful for nausea.
100mg by the way is huge. I'm not sure you need that high of a dose, especially if you add P5P to it. That should make it possible to lower the dose for less nausea but with good effect. I think disease states require higher than normal doses, maybe sometimes megadoses, but I think it makes sense to try to stay at the lowest dose possible to retain some effect yet be tolerable at the same time.
Posted by gilmourr on November 30, 2012, at 20:13:09
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency, posted by bleauberry on November 30, 2012, at 17:27:30
It is a high dose but I've heard that a lot gets discarded when it's metabolized. Anyways, I'm probably not going to take a lot because I really don't know where my B6 levels are at and I'm not about to just assume they're super low, but I believe it makes sense since hydrazines lower B6 greatly and my meds have not been working really at all when they did the last two times I was on Nardil. They actually were working I should say, and stopped 4-5 days ago. Even my REM sleep is rebounding :(
Hopefully I didn't just waste 20 days because I had low B6 because I want Nardil to kick in so I can do stuff.
What do you think I should check after B6 if it's NOT low?
Folate? liver enzymes? I know that it takes 30-33 days for Nardil to work AMAZINGLY, and it's day 26 right now, I'm certain it's probably not going to work so I must find out what's the matter.
Posted by gilmourr on November 30, 2012, at 20:17:16
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency » gilmourr, posted by ChicagoKat on November 30, 2012, at 15:24:58
> Hi gilmourr,
>
> So does taking the B6 sublingually keep your stomach from getting upset then? No matter what, it seems you have a good plan lined up for the B6
>
> I would feel bad for you if Nardil pooped out on you. Cos I know what it feels like since it pooped out on me. Made me want to cry (more than usual lol) I really hope it continues to work for you.
>
> So yep, off the Nardil. We were going to try Parnate, but unbelievably it was not covered my United NON-Health Care Insurance. And even more suprising, it cost 130 bucks a month if I paid out of pocket! I was sure such an old drug would be dirt cheap. So no Parnate. But I think it's just as well, b/c I've heard Parnate is so activating, and I have a bad problem with anxiety.
> So I've been on Ritalin, the only thing that gives me an hour here and there where I feel good. On Tuesday me and pdoc decided to try Focalin, and I like it...smoother, lasts longer before crashing, and when it does crash it's not as intense. Weird for me, when I crash on a stim I get bad anxiety.
>
> But, as usual, I think I jumped the gun in thinking that Focalin is a miracle drug for me. It def is better than regular Ritalin, but I am now developing shortness of breath when on it. Which is no fun at all. WHY, OH WHY, CAN A DRUG NOT JUST WORK WITHOUT MAKING YOU SICK IN SOME OTHER RESPECT?? Sorry for the shouting, but I just needed to vent. Thanks for reading. I just get so tired of how one drug helps you, but there are side effects, so you have to take another drug for that, then the additional drug causes even more, other side effects, so yyou need yet another drug to cover that....and so on and so on...sometimes it's unbearable. How I miss my early days in this 'game'. The days when I just took a Proac in the morning and I was just fine. Sigh, I can dream. But those days are long gone and certainly will never come back.
>
> Thanks for reading if you made it this far. I really needed to vent. I wish you much luck gilmourr, and will keep fingers crossed that the Nardil does NOT poop out on you.
> KatThat's too bad that you couldn't do parnate, it's powerful. If you can tolerate it, it's great stuff.
Sucks that you have to be on stimulants, I've heard it's basically a bad game to play because they can't be used long term, I really hope you try and get on an AD rather than a stimulant as they make things a lot worse.
Have you thought about rTMS, or vagus nerve stimulation or ECT?
I'm doing rTMS in a few weeks, it works for 65% of people apparently. And there's no memory loss.
ECT I'll use if I go through every anti depressant and addon. I've set a limit to 5 years. If I am still f*ck*d up after 5 years I'm doing ECT. Sometimes the risk has to be taken. Right now I'm 20 months into my disorder...seems like forever already.
Posted by Phillipa on November 30, 2012, at 21:01:59
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency, posted by gilmourr on November 30, 2012, at 20:17:16
I thought that B6 is water soluable and you urinate out what the body doesn't need? Phillipa
Posted by gilmourr on November 30, 2012, at 22:09:13
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency » gilmourr, posted by Phillipa on November 30, 2012, at 21:01:59
It is water soluble, but you simply can't just take a tonne of it. You'll overdose on B6 and have some horrible side effects. It will eventually get out of your system but it'll probably take 3-4 days.
Also you really shouldn't mega load B6 ever because of permanent neuorological damage you can cause by OD'ing on it.
Posted by ChicagoKat on December 1, 2012, at 0:42:01
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency, posted by gilmourr on November 30, 2012, at 20:17:16
> That's too bad that you couldn't do parnate, it's powerful. If you can tolerate it, it's great stuff.
>
> Sucks that you have to be on stimulants, I've heard it's basically a bad game to play because they can't be used long term, I really hope you try and get on an AD rather than a stimulant as they make things a lot worse.
>My pdoc and I have tried *everything* except of course the Parnate. Ritalin is the ONLY thing that gives me relief, if only for a couple of hours. I live for those few hours. I'm open to suggestions if anyone has them. b/c gilmourr, you're right, stims are a real pain in the *ss and certainly don't give one continuous relief.
I had ECT and it was one of the worst experiences of my life. It was a nightmare to me. And in the end, it not only did not help; it made my depression/anxiety worse. And it somehow made my meds stop working. Before I had ECT I was on Lexapro and it was actually working a little bit. Now nothing works, or if it does, it only works for a few days. The only thing that was a positve result of ECT was that after I had it, I had a revulsion for alcohol. I used to binge drink once or twice a week. After ECT the thought of even a glass of wine with dinner makes me sick. But I can't tell you enough how much I hated ECT and wish to god I had not done it.
Thanks for your input gilmourr, and good luck with the Nardil, I hope it has not pooped out on you the way it did with me. You're right; if it does work, it's amazing. Take care,
Kat
Posted by ChicagoKat on December 1, 2012, at 0:43:10
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency » gilmourr, posted by Phillipa on November 30, 2012, at 21:01:59
> I thought that B6 is water soluable and you urinate out what the body doesn't need? Phillipa
You're right Phillipa, it's almost impossible to overdose on any of the B vitamins b/c they are all water soluble.
Kat
Posted by gilmourr on December 1, 2012, at 6:12:23
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency » gilmourr, posted by ChicagoKat on December 1, 2012, at 0:42:01
> > That's too bad that you couldn't do parnate, it's powerful. If you can tolerate it, it's great stuff.
> >
> > Sucks that you have to be on stimulants, I've heard it's basically a bad game to play because they can't be used long term, I really hope you try and get on an AD rather than a stimulant as they make things a lot worse.
> >
>
> My pdoc and I have tried *everything* except of course the Parnate. Ritalin is the ONLY thing that gives me relief, if only for a couple of hours. I live for those few hours. I'm open to suggestions if anyone has them. b/c gilmourr, you're right, stims are a real pain in the *ss and certainly don't give one continuous relief.
>
> I had ECT and it was one of the worst experiences of my life. It was a nightmare to me. And in the end, it not only did not help; it made my depression/anxiety worse. And it somehow made my meds stop working. Before I had ECT I was on Lexapro and it was actually working a little bit. Now nothing works, or if it does, it only works for a few days. The only thing that was a positve result of ECT was that after I had it, I had a revulsion for alcohol. I used to binge drink once or twice a week. After ECT the thought of even a glass of wine with dinner makes me sick. But I can't tell you enough how much I hated ECT and wish to god I had not done it.
>
> Thanks for your input gilmourr, and good luck with the Nardil, I hope it has not pooped out on you the way it did with me. You're right; if it does work, it's amazing. Take care,
> Kat
>Have you thought about instead of trialing drugs investigating why they don't work? For instance, some malnutrition's basically block the ability of AD's to work. B6 is involved in helping synthesize almost ALL neurotransmitters and vitamins so if that's deficient, most likely you will not be able to use anything.
Read! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B6
Also if you're lactose I was thinking that maybe you have low levels of calcium which is super important for neurotransmitter release. I'm not exactly sure how this works, but I believe with a deficiency in calcium there can become a huge issue with neurotransmitter release.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_synapse#Neurotransmitter_release
Also, folate, B12 and B6 are super important to keep within normal ranges when using medications.
I'd really check your vitamin levels ON drugs. Because to me it seems that people where meds just DONT work, there's got to be a reason. If you've used meds wiht SERT, NE, DOP, GABA, those are mainly the chemicals and it should work. If it doesn't work, there's got to be a reason WHY your body isn't releasing/building up neurotransmitters.
Posted by ChicagoKat on December 1, 2012, at 10:59:25
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency, posted by gilmourr on December 1, 2012, at 6:12:23
> > > That's too bad that you couldn't do parnate, it's powerful. If you can tolerate it, it's great stuff.
> > >
> > > Sucks that you have to be on stimulants, I've heard it's basically a bad game to play because they can't be used long term, I really hope you try and get on an AD rather than a stimulant as they make things a lot worse.
> > >
> >
> > My pdoc and I have tried *everything* except of course the Parnate. Ritalin is the ONLY thing that gives me relief, if only for a couple of hours. I live for those few hours. I'm open to suggestions if anyone has them. b/c gilmourr, you're right, stims are a real pain in the *ss and certainly don't give one continuous relief.
> >
> > I had ECT and it was one of the worst experiences of my life. It was a nightmare to me. And in the end, it not only did not help; it made my depression/anxiety worse. And it somehow made my meds stop working. Before I had ECT I was on Lexapro and it was actually working a little bit. Now nothing works, or if it does, it only works for a few days. The only thing that was a positve result of ECT was that after I had it, I had a revulsion for alcohol. I used to binge drink once or twice a week. After ECT the thought of even a glass of wine with dinner makes me sick. But I can't tell you enough how much I hated ECT and wish to god I had not done it.
> >
> > Thanks for your input gilmourr, and good luck with the Nardil, I hope it has not pooped out on you the way it did with me. You're right; if it does work, it's amazing. Take care,
> > Kat
> >
>
> Have you thought about instead of trialing drugs investigating why they don't work? For instance, some malnutrition's basically block the ability of AD's to work. B6 is involved in helping synthesize almost ALL neurotransmitters and vitamins so if that's deficient, most likely you will not be able to use anything.
>
> Read! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B6
>
> Also if you're lactose I was thinking that maybe you have low levels of calcium which is super important for neurotransmitter release. I'm not exactly sure how this works, but I believe with a deficiency in calcium there can become a huge issue with neurotransmitter release.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_synapse#Neurotransmitter_release
>
> Also, folate, B12 and B6 are super important to keep within normal ranges when using medications.
>
> I'd really check your vitamin levels ON drugs. Because to me it seems that people where meds just DONT work, there's got to be a reason. If you've used meds wiht SERT, NE, DOP, GABA, those are mainly the chemicals and it should work. If it doesn't work, there's got to be a reason WHY your body isn't releasing/building up neurotransmitters.
>I take B6 as an extra suupplement, I drink lots of milk, I take a vitamin D supplement, I take an MVI that's made for people who have had gastric bypass so it's much higher in the levels of vitamins, I take fish oil, I take Mag citrate every other day. I've tried Deplin, no effect. But I really should ask my regular doc if maybe we should check a B12 level. Since I'm a vegetarian plus some people are unable to absorb it orally and need regualr injectionns of it. So I will ask her on Tues when I see her.
I asked my pdoc if he had an idea why everything poops out on me, and does so usually very quickly. He said I must have a great, efficient liver. I said I need to start drinking heavily. Like I said, this problem was nowhere near as bad until I had ECT. I wonder what ECT did to me?!
Kat
Posted by Phillipa on December 1, 2012, at 18:36:31
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency » gilmourr, posted by ChicagoKat on December 1, 2012, at 10:59:25
Kat just reading this now I've never heard of ECT effecting someone this way. Did you have bipass surgery? That can effect absorption. Phillipa
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on December 1, 2012, at 19:12:52
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency » gilmourr, posted by ChicagoKat on December 1, 2012, at 10:59:25
Kat, given your response to amphetamine type stimulants, I realy think Parnate should be your next port of call, starting off at 20mg per day and fairly quickly increasing to 60mg per day.
Posted by gilmourr on December 1, 2012, at 20:57:40
In reply to Kat - Trying Parnate, posted by jono_in_adelaide on December 1, 2012, at 19:12:52
SOMEONE POSTED THIS ON ANOTHER FORUM, this sounds like it's what may be going on with me!
http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl?post=/babble/20100811/msgs/959012.html#959012
I think I may be overdoing it with B6 and rendering Nardil inactive! Only food with B6 in it from now on! Lets see if it reverses over the week. I'll also be able to tell if my B6 levels are way too high from my lab on wednesday, PLZ LET THIS BE IT
Posted by gilmourr on December 2, 2012, at 11:25:05
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency, posted by gilmourr on December 1, 2012, at 6:12:23
Holy sh*t, I haven't take any B6 or B12 for 48 hours, only been eating foods with 100% daily value of B6 and I think Nardil is back in action.
My head feels so f*ck*ng chill. It feels like something is just tickling the happy part of my brain. Just gonna continue doing this and see if it continues. Also my eyes are dilated now as f*ck hahahah. THIS FEELS GOOD.
I think I really just need 2-10 mg of B6 TOPS a day, really no need to go crazy with 50-100 or 150 mg of B6.
Posted by gilmourr on December 2, 2012, at 11:25:48
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency, posted by gilmourr on December 2, 2012, at 11:25:05
Oh and haven't had any shivers for like 8 hours now :D:D:D
Posted by ChicagoKat on December 2, 2012, at 13:59:06
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency » ChicagoKat, posted by Phillipa on December 1, 2012, at 18:36:31
No, did not have bypass surgery. Came close to doing it, but chickened out. But I had gotten the special vitamins they take and they are great. Chewable too :)
Posted by ChicagoKat on December 2, 2012, at 14:01:05
In reply to Kat - Trying Parnate, posted by jono_in_adelaide on December 1, 2012, at 19:12:52
> Kat, given your response to amphetamine type stimulants, I realy think Parnate should be your next port of call, starting off at 20mg per day and fairly quickly increasing to 60mg per day.
Jon, both my pdoc and myself agree absolutely completely with you. So I was gonna try it, but then it turned out my sh*tty new non-health insurance does not cover it, and surpisingly, it costs 130bucks a month to get it out of pocket. Can't afford that, so that great idea was squashed.
Kat
Posted by Phillipa on December 2, 2012, at 20:16:06
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency, posted by gilmourr on December 2, 2012, at 11:25:48
Think it was B6? Or did the nardil just kick in? Phillipa
Posted by gilmourr on December 2, 2012, at 20:58:23
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency » gilmourr, posted by Phillipa on December 2, 2012, at 20:16:06
No what I think happened was I ate bran flakes (like 2 bowls). They're super high in tryptophan.
I think I may have found a reason why I may be depressed. Obviously tryptophan just made me feel completely amazing and normal. I was not hypomanic.
Reason why I don't get enough tryptophan I believe is because I can't eat tryptophan foods. I'm intolerant to milk, dairy, eggs, peanuts, turkey, strong cheeses like cheddar etc.
Certain HIGH tryptophan foods I can have are COD and bran. Thing is I NEVER EAT BRAN. I randomly did today because I wanted B6.
Without enough tryptophan you will have low serotonin, niacin and melatonin.
Which may be why SSRI's never worked for me! Without serotonin SSRI's wouldn't make sense. That's why MAOI's worked. Because they inhibit MAO and increase serotonin directly.
F*ck, I think I just made some kind of huge break through with all of this.
** And I'm very certain I have a B6 deficiency ONTOP of this because I take a hydrazine drug with depletes B6. Less B6 = even LESS serotonin which is why it stopped working. I just stopped the vitamins which is why Nardil probably stopped working.
F*ck I this this is big. Bringing all this to my psych and GP this week.
Posted by ChicagoKat on December 6, 2012, at 18:56:33
In reply to Kat - Trying Parnate, posted by jono_in_adelaide on December 1, 2012, at 19:12:52
> Kat, given your response to amphetamine type stimulants, I realy think Parnate should be your next port of call, starting off at 20mg per day and fairly quickly increasing to 60mg per day.
Sorry Jon, for the late reply. My pdoc and I agreed it should be the next step. But believe it or not, my new non-health insurance does not cover it. And even more amazing, it costs 130bucks a month out of pocket. That astounds me for such an old drug. I would think it would be dirt cheap. So no Parnate for Kat :(
Posted by Cee on December 8, 2012, at 17:59:35
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency » ChicagoKat, posted by Phillipa on December 1, 2012, at 18:36:31
Hello can some one tell me how b6 effects Nardil and does drinking lots of water help
See
Posted by Cee on December 8, 2012, at 18:26:48
In reply to Re: Nardil Users/Experts, what to do for B6 deficiency » gilmourr, posted by ChicagoKat on December 1, 2012, at 10:59:25
Hello what does b6 got to do with Nardil
Help see
This is the end of the thread.
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