Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1022287

Shown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

benzo experts

Posted by g_g_g_unit on July 28, 2012, at 8:14:02

Quick question:

I take 1.5mg of Clonazepam at night for Parnate insomnia, and then 0.5mg in the morning for anxiety.

At first, I found each nightly increase left me feeling lethargic, stuporous etc. the next day, but this slowly cleared up. My sleep onset and quality is okay, but even with the 0.5mg, I get no control over background/peripheral anxiety.

I have a problem stimulant users might be familiar with. As you know, they operate on a bell-curve. Too much, and I get this weird mind-lock effect where I'm alert but kind of wired and can't think clearly, feel way too overfocused (to the point where working memory becomes choppy etc.). I take 15mg Parnate + 0.5mg Clonazepam, then 3 more 10mg Parnate doses split across the day. Unfortunately, 10mg at a time seems to be *just* a little too much for me, and pushes me into that weird zone. If I add the right amount of benzo, it can negative some of the stimulant effects, but at least fixes the problem.

Anyway, my point is -- I have to stay on Parnate for the next 3 weeks at least, because it partially helps focus and I have something coming up over that period where I need to be at least in some state of attentiveness.

My psychiatrist wants me to stop the morning clonazepam dose, and swap to Valium three times a day. I've tried 2.5mg of Valium on one-off occasions with 10mg Parnate and it left me feeling really stupid, but I know there's an adaptation that has to take place.

So I guess I'm wondering if my psychiatrist's idea makes much sense (i.e. Clonazepam at night, then Valium during the day) or if I should just take a larger Clonazepam dose in the morning. This is only going to be a short-term solution anyway.

The thing is, the project starts in about 6 days, so I kinda need to decide now because I don't wanna be battling cognitive impairment at that point. How long does it typically take to adjust to Valium and is it more/less forgiving than Clonazepam memory-wise etc.?

My other option is to maybe just keep the Clonazepam as it is, and lower my Parnate dose by splitting it into 10/15mg in the morning and then 3x5mg throughout the day which might be more tolerable/beneficial, since it's basically operating like a stimulant at this point.

 

Re: benzo experts g_g_g_unit

Posted by Phillipa on July 28, 2012, at 9:56:59

In reply to benzo experts, posted by g_g_g_unit on July 28, 2012, at 8:14:02

I don't want to sound critical but I don't understand looking for a short quick fix that you will abandon after a project. To me if you are working your functioning sounds fairly good. Should you be kind of manipulating or trying to meds? I just found klonopin depressing. Phillipa

 

Re: benzo experts

Posted by Brynb on July 28, 2012, at 12:17:15

In reply to Re: benzo experts g_g_g_unit, posted by Phillipa on July 28, 2012, at 9:56:59

Hi g-

I don't know much about Parnate, but I'm quite the seasoned benzo user ;). I find klonopin to be okay for GAD (its long half-life ideally keeps rebound anxiety at bay), but it isn't great for depression and I never liked using it more than once a day. Switching to Valium could help; you can divide doses (and take them more than once a day), but again, frequent use can be depressing. For sleep, I would consider Xanax--it's quite tiring and hits hard and fast on anxiety. Or perhaps Restoril, a benzo used specifically for sleep. Of course there are other options for insomnia, such as hypnotics like Ambien (or ADs like Remeron and Trazadone, but I don't know how they interact w/ Parnate) or APs like Seroquel.

But, per the benzo route, I would look at Xanax or Restoril for sleep, and Valium during the day. While Valium is similar to Klonopin, I personally found it easier to tolerate.

-b

 

Re: benzo experts

Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on July 28, 2012, at 22:50:46

In reply to benzo experts, posted by g_g_g_unit on July 28, 2012, at 8:14:02

i know exactly what that term....the mindlock effect...ugh usally this happened at low-moderate doses...like 25mg of adderall...15mg of dextroamphetamine but i seemed to go away at higher doses...low doses made me zombie, frozen...its difficult to put this in understandable terms but that's what it did.

Anyways...lorazpeam is good to take with anykind of stimulant property medication...although it takes higher doses like 4mg to really get a relaxed stimulation, 4mg lorazp. with 40mg of dextroamphetamine was a good choice I used to have.

anyways good luck to you...

rj

 

Re: benzo experts

Posted by jono_in_adelaide on July 29, 2012, at 20:21:54

In reply to Re: benzo experts, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on July 28, 2012, at 22:50:46

Clonazepam does have a reputation for being quite zonking.

If you're looking for a benzo that calms but doesnt leave you zonked, it might be worth asking about Frisium (clobazam) - 10mg of this is = to 5mg of Valium.

 

Re: benzo experts rjlockhart04-08

Posted by g_g_g_unit on July 31, 2012, at 10:34:57

In reply to Re: benzo experts, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on July 28, 2012, at 22:50:46

> i know exactly what that term....the mindlock effect...ugh usally this happened at low-moderate doses...like 25mg of adderall...15mg of dextroamphetamine but i seemed to go away at higher doses...low doses made me zombie, frozen...its difficult to put this in understandable terms but that's what it did.
>
when you got the 'mindlock' effect could you still read, function, etc., or would you get mentally confused? I thought it was associated it with too-high-a-dose .. too much NE .. when I tried Strattera I got it, and the higher I raised the dose, the worse it got..

 

Re: benzo experts jono_in_adelaide

Posted by g_g_g_unit on July 31, 2012, at 10:39:53

In reply to Re: benzo experts, posted by jono_in_adelaide on July 29, 2012, at 20:21:54

> Clonazepam does have a reputation for being quite zonking.
>
> If you're looking for a benzo that calms but doesnt leave you zonked, it might be worth asking about Frisium (clobazam) - 10mg of this is = to 5mg of Valium.
>

It's actually having the opposite effect now for some reason, i.e. 1.5mg before bed is stimulating me (I took it at 11pm and am now still wide awake at 1.35am). To be honest, I don't think clonazepam's done much for my anxiety whatsoever, though at least it used to put me to sleep. I'm not sure if the stimulation has some relationship to having lowered my Parnate dose quite significantly (now taking only 25-30mg, as opposed to 60mg, with the aim of getting off in two weeks). I saw Phiddipus mention in a thread above that clonazepam antagonizes serotonin, so maybe it's just compounding Parnate's stimulating effects?

I donno, anyway, I'm kind of sick of it. It just depresses me. I notice the effect immediately after I take it.

Never heard of Frisium. Is it available in Aus? If I wanted to just cross-taper to Valium instead (since I have a whole bunch lying around), could I switch from 1.5mg clonazepam two 10/15mg Valium at night, or would I have to withdraw from the clonazepam first?

 

Re: benzo experts g_g_g_unit

Posted by phidippus on July 31, 2012, at 21:02:58

In reply to benzo experts, posted by g_g_g_unit on July 28, 2012, at 8:14:02

Why not just stop the benzos altogether? Valium is not nearly as forgiving as clonazepam in the cognition department. Anyway, there's literature supporting clonazepam as a treatment for OCD, where there is none supporting Valium.

You also take a very small amount of clonazepam. I know you're sensitive to drugs, but there's a point where too little of a drug is well, too little. Which is why I suggest you drop the benzos altogether.

Why not try Lyrica or Neurontin? Both will treat tyour anxiety, specifically your OCD (benzos do nothing to treat OCD).

Eric

 

Re: benzo experts

Posted by jono_in_adelaide on July 31, 2012, at 21:05:24

In reply to Re: benzo experts jono_in_adelaide, posted by g_g_g_unit on July 31, 2012, at 10:39:53

Yes, Frisium is avalaible in Australia

I think you could easily do a hotswap from 1,5mg clonazepam to 15mg diszepam without any worries at all

http://www.epharmacy.com.au/searchresults.asp?searchsection=products&terms=frisium&stype=NP&expand=0

What are you going to use an an antidepressant when you come off of Parnate?

Could i suggest a trial of "californian rocket fuel", a combo if effexor and remeron.... say effexor 150mg in the morning, and remeron 30mg at bedtime?

 

Re: benzo experts

Posted by jono_in_adelaide on July 31, 2012, at 21:10:58

In reply to Re: benzo experts jono_in_adelaide, posted by g_g_g_unit on July 31, 2012, at 10:39:53

I also found adding Risperidone 1mg at night to my antidepressants and benzos gave a tremendous boost - it reduced anxiety, and reduced morbid depressive thoughts, with virtualy no side effects.

 

Re: benzo experts phidippus

Posted by g_g_g_unit on August 1, 2012, at 8:36:22

In reply to Re: benzo experts g_g_g_unit, posted by phidippus on July 31, 2012, at 21:02:58

> Why not just stop the benzos altogether? Valium is not nearly as forgiving as clonazepam in the cognition department. Anyway, there's literature supporting clonazepam as a treatment for OCD, where there is none supporting Valium.
>
> You also take a very small amount of clonazepam. I know you're sensitive to drugs, but there's a point where too little of a drug is well, too little. Which is why I suggest you drop the benzos altogether.
>
> Why not try Lyrica or Neurontin? Both will treat tyour anxiety, specifically your OCD (benzos do nothing to treat OCD).
>

I was just trying to figure out why on some occasions Clonazepam will perfectly sedate me and other times just seem to stimulate me -- even once I've reached a steady state. Perhaps there is some interaction with Parnate (I take my last dose at around 7pm). I don't think it has anything to do with tolerance, because I can be feeling physically wiped out, then I'll take my 11pm dose and suddenly grow agitated. Do you think I should try upping my bedtime dose (1.5mg) further? Sometimes adding another benzo (Temazepam) makes it even worse, though 5mg of Valium tends to help (I'm just kind of in a stupor the next day).

Anyway, I can't stop it now because it's the only thing that puts me to sleep (when it works) on Parnate.

I didn't like Neurontin. It depressed me and caused pretty bad cognitive side-effects. It's also rather expensive here. As I say, the Parnate/Clonazepam thing is only going to be for the next 12 days, so I'm trying to work with what I have.

 

Re: benzo experts phidippus

Posted by g_g_g_unit on August 1, 2012, at 8:45:00

In reply to Re: benzo experts g_g_g_unit, posted by phidippus on July 31, 2012, at 21:02:58

Are benzodiazepines NMDA antagonists? Because I know that adding something like Magnesium to Parnate is almost a guarantor of a terrible night's sleep (and I've read similar accounts from people who've tried it with traditional stimulants).

That's why I wondered if there might be some interaction between the clonazepam and Parnate's metabolites, since, like I say, my last dose is around dinner time. Sometimes the more sedating agents I add (OTC stuff like Taurine, Niacinamide), the worse the problem gets.

 

Re: benzo experts g_g_g_unit

Posted by brynb on August 1, 2012, at 13:39:17

In reply to Re: benzo experts phidippus, posted by g_g_g_unit on August 1, 2012, at 8:45:00

> Are benzodiazepines NMDA antagonists?

Hi G,

I don't believe benzos are. They bind to the GABA receptor (like barbiturates).

It's my understanding that drugs like Ketamine are NMDA antagonists, as well as some synthetic opioids, like Tramadol (which got me thinking, because my mood responds so positively to Tramadol).

I'm not sure about its interactions with Parnate, but Vistaril helps me when I need something to sleep (it's sedating and non-habit forming, and works ok on anxiety). It's basically an antihistamine.

-b

 

Re: benzo experts g_g_g_unit

Posted by phidippus on August 1, 2012, at 14:31:11

In reply to Re: benzo experts phidippus, posted by g_g_g_unit on August 1, 2012, at 8:45:00

Benzodiazapines are not NMDA antagonists.

Eric

 

Re: benzo experts g_g_g_unit

Posted by phidippus on August 1, 2012, at 14:36:08

In reply to Re: benzo experts phidippus, posted by g_g_g_unit on August 1, 2012, at 8:36:22

Benzodiazapines can be a little erratic. When you get stimulated by the clonazepam, I'm sure you're experiencing disinhibition-common amongst benzos. Also, benzos can sport paradoxical effects.

Eric

 

Re: benzo experts

Posted by g_g_g_unit on August 1, 2012, at 19:04:27

In reply to Re: benzo experts g_g_g_unit, posted by phidippus on August 1, 2012, at 14:36:08

> Benzodiazapines can be a little erratic. When you get stimulated by the clonazepam, I'm sure you're experiencing disinhibition-common amongst benzos. Also, benzos can sport paradoxical effects.
>
> Eric

Yeah, I just didn't understand why it was occurring on some occasions and not others. I'd been on 1.5mg Klonopin at night with sporadic success for a couple of weeks now. Last night, I began to feel stimulated after taking it and so, out of frustration, took an extra 0.5mg and felt fine.

 

Re: question for phiddipus

Posted by g_g_g_unit on August 1, 2012, at 21:31:13

In reply to Re: benzo experts, posted by g_g_g_unit on August 1, 2012, at 19:04:27

I know individual metabolism will vary, but if you raise your Clonazepam dose, how long does it usually take to adjust to the cognitive/memory impairment? Just curious 'cos I'm noticing some today after raising last night .. it's happened before, but I never paid track of how long it took to go away.

 

Re: question for phiddipus g_g_g_unit

Posted by phidippus on August 2, 2012, at 10:01:55

In reply to Re: question for phiddipus, posted by g_g_g_unit on August 1, 2012, at 21:31:13

Cognitive impairment lasts as long as the dose does. Its just you get used to it after a couple of hours.

Eric

 

Re: g_g_g

Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on August 3, 2012, at 12:48:16

In reply to Re: benzo experts rjlockhart04-08, posted by g_g_g_unit on July 31, 2012, at 10:34:57

sorry for taking so long, I post sometimes and keep my eyes on the bottem of the babble board.

No I could function, but it was really difficult because that mindlock effect caused me to be in really a bad mood. I was focused but it was dyphoric like and I felt I was forced to be overfocused. Higher doses stimulate dopamine and NE to a point where it creates euphoria, elevated levels of it. 15mg of dextroamphetamine would cause me to be zombie like, but 40mg would make me more lively. It's difficult because im probaly my own case relating to this info. I would get confused at times because I was in the mind focus extreme....i can't really explai but I used to drown out that state with alcohol and benzos. It was similar to taking lorazepam 3-4mg with 15mg of dextroamphetamine with maybe some alcohol to swig it down. I've done really stupid things but that's why I used to do it...to get out of that mindlock state. But then I realized it went away at high doses, that's where my abuse started.

good luck....try focalin XR or Vyvanse.

 

Re: question for phiddipus phidippus

Posted by g_g_g_unit on August 4, 2012, at 8:55:35

In reply to Re: question for phiddipus g_g_g_unit, posted by phidippus on August 2, 2012, at 10:01:55

> Cognitive impairment lasts as long as the dose does. Its just you get used to it after a couple of hours.
>
> Eric

I guess I was confusing cognitive impairment with sedation. Anyway, because of the half-life, wouldn't an increase in Klonopin produce greater impairment, at least until blood levels stabilized? I can take 1.5mg at night now and not notice much, but as soon as I added the 1mg in the morning, it hit me hard.

 

Re: question for phiddipus g_g_g_unit

Posted by phidippus on August 4, 2012, at 19:03:44

In reply to Re: question for phiddipus phidippus, posted by g_g_g_unit on August 4, 2012, at 8:55:35

An increase in Klonopin may or may not produce more impairment.

Eric


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